United States still head and shoulders above Europe

[Scipio Africanus]

Despite the ill-planned war aftermath and the furor over the prisoner abuse scandal, the US is still a more moral nation than most, if not all, European countries.

Countries like France, Russia, Germany, etc, were content to make millions from Iraq and turn the other way while Saddam was burning people alive, dropping their children in vats of acid in front of their parents, and having his surgeons amputate the hands of dissidents without anaesthetic. I just saw a tape of that horror this morning.

Countries like France, Germany, Russia and to a lesser extent, the UK, encourage corruption in Africa. The French <b>government</b> had a slush fund from which French companies seeking to win contracts in Africa could bribe African officials. Germany had a similar arrangement.

Most annoying now is how content the French, Germans and Russians are to allow the suffering and death of Iraqi civilians to continue, just to spite the United States. They could have sent in troops after major combat ended to help keep the peace and tend to the needs of the Iraqi population, but no, they would rather let them bleed and die slowly, so they can prove a point against the US.

The Europeans think they are looking good in all this, but they look like cold, calculating and cowardly vampires. It is no coincidence that the most blood-sucking of all nations, Switzerland, who make money off the misery of millions, is in Europe.

[cic old boy]

There is no difference between the whole lot of them - US and Europe. Everything you've accused the French government of, the US has done all that and then some. Rummy used to be special envoy to Baghdad and gave Saddam a cowboy hat not long after he gassed the Kurds.

Moral nation my arse. Shall we talk about the Tuskegee experiments? You sound like you've never heard of CIA-sponsored death squads in Latin America.

[juventuss]

to me, they are all the same. US ooo, Europe ooo, they are all the same.
infact the US has ALOT more dirt on its hands with all its "interest of National security stuff".

I firmly believe that another world war is coming. the western world against 3rd world countries. But this will not be fought with weapons. Its all going to be socioeconomic

[fabio]

Countries like France, Russia, Germany, etc, were content to make millions from Iraq and turn the other way while Saddam was burning people alive, dropping their children in vats of acid in front of their parents, and having his surgeons amputate the hands of dissidents without anaesthetic. I just saw a tape of that horror this morning

so where was your almighty USA when ABACHA was kiling NIGERIANS

mugbage in zim

the killing in DAFUR SUDAN :x

the simpe truth ur america woruld only intervence if it threatens her national interest

Countries like France, Germany, Russia and to a lesser extent, the UK, encourage corruption in Africa. The French government had a slush fund from which French companies seeking to win contracts in Africa could bribe African officials. Germany had a similar arrangement.

you seem to have 4 getton about d#$% EWU chencey and his company's bribery scandal in NIGERIA.

Most annoying now is how content the French, Germans and Russians are to allow the suffering and death of Iraqi civilians to continue, just to spite the United States. They could have sent in troops after major combat ended to help keep the peace and tend to the needs of the Iraqi population, but no, they would rather let them bleed and die slowly, so they can prove a point against the US.

the simple truth is EUROPE has experinced war and the sufering it bring WE are not interesting in making people suffer the effects of war.

Despite the ill-planned war aftermath and the furor over the prisoner abuse scandal, the US is still a more moral nation than most, if not all, European countries.

the use of the word MORAL creates a dileema for me MORAL in what absence of basic universial health for every one

expensive UNIVERSITY

if the usa took a moral stance on all isuues it would invade all non democratic countries and not to for get you guys hate CUBA and CASTRO how can you have not save the CUBANS from the hand sof CASTRO.
the country like AMERICA that comes out has got more skeletons in its wardrobe.

AMERICANS AND EUPOREANS would disagree noe because we are different
but to to different in IDELOGY and ORIENATION

[ohsee]

There is no difference between the whole lot of them - US and Europe. Everything you've accused the French government of, the US has done all that and then some. Rummy used to be special envoy to Baghdad and gave Saddam a cowboy hat not long after he gassed the Kurds.

Moral nation my arse. Shall we talk about the Tuskegee experiments? You sound like you've never heard of CIA-sponsored death squads in Latin America.

cic,
What do you mean CIA-sponsored death squads? You dey talk like say CIA jus dey give dem money to act, when in actual fact, they train, equip and "advise" the armies that organize these death squads. I laugh when I watch Americans wring their hands hypocritically on CNN about the Iraqi abuses, talking as if it is something new and "isolated." It is well documented that the CIA has been teaching torture methods to (and sometimes practicing these methods themselves in) Latin America for decades.

[Scipio Africanus]

There is no difference between the whole lot of them - US and Europe. Everything you've accused the French government of, the US has done all that and then some. Rummy used to be special envoy to Baghdad and gave Saddam a cowboy hat not long after he gassed the Kurds.

Moral nation my arse. Shall we talk about the Tuskegee experiments? You sound like you've never heard of CIA-sponsored death squads in Latin America.

CICOB. IIRC I just saw a thread where you castigated some poor soul on their inadequate grasp of English language nuances. So na do as I say, not as I do? Over the last century, the USA's foreign policy has been <u> more </u>moral than that of European countries when they had power comparable to what the US began to enjoy in the latter part of the last century. Let's look at what our European friends were up to when they were powerful.

Great Britain - Enslaved and exploited millions around the world

France - Enslaved and exploited millions around the world

Germany - Instituted policy of racial superiority, enslaved millions of Europeans, killed and worked to death millions in death and slave-labor camps

Russia - Murdered millions of its own people, used murder, invasion and intimidation to keep dozens of countries and peoples subservient to its interests, exported strife worldwide

Belgium - perhaps the most brutal colonial ruler. Made sport of chopping off hands of indigenous peoples.

Spain- Ask the latin Americans

Portugal - Ditto

And please don't bring up the Tuskegee experiments. While they were despicable, I can easily bring up much worse things that have been done by any of the above European countries.

And a word about the corruption issue. In the French case, it is/was government sanctioned. Not so in the American case. In fact it is against US law for US corporations to engage in bribery of foreign governments.

[juventuss]

emm

the US - Literally wiped out the entire Native american race.

nuff said

[cic old boy]

Chief Scipio: Ol' Boy, I no too get time. But this your argument get as e be.

Slavery: I guess nearly 30m black Americans arrived there on vacation.

Racial superiority: Is segregation and apartheid in the US now ancient history?

Extermination: Where are all the Native Americans that used to live in that continent?

US foreign policy, by their own admission, has nothing to do with morality. But to maintain a status quo of wealth for them and poverty for others. I will post the quote from a State Dept official from 1948 when I find the time.

The "moral" angle is what they say for TV. Like we will destroy this city in order to "liberate" it. Or Castro is evil, while we lovers of freedom are plotting to pour cement in the milk meant for Cuban school kids.

The Bush junta is the most corrupt government known to the Western world. What corruption is bigger than invading a sovereign country to enrich your corporate sponsors?

Oga Ohsee: I hear you about the death squads.

[Scipio Africanus]

emm

the US - Literally wiped out the entire Native american race.

nuff said

That was arguably done by Europeans. After all the country that is the US today was back then near autonomous colonies of Dutch, English, Scottish, German, Irish settlers, ... etc.

[juventuss]

emm

the US - Literally wiped out the entire Native american race.

nuff said

That was arguably done by Europeans. After all the country that is the US today was back then near autonomous colonies of Dutch, English, Scottish, German, Irish settlers, ... etc.

all evidence points to Inhabitants of the US. Europeans did not send their citizens over their to kill the native indians. So these people were acting under the flag of the States.

[ohsee]

General Scipio,
I understand your point, and there are good grounds for making it. But cic is correct in saying e get as e be. The USA's "more moral" appearance is a function of the period of history in which it rose to prominence.

The US is a child of Europe, and is thus very capable of committing similar atrocities (like papa, like pikin), as it has shown on numerous occasions, albeit on a smaller scale. The US is not exporting people for slavery because this is no longer a viable or acceptable mode of business. And its agents and troops will only chop off hands and stick heads on poles if they think the modern media will not find out.

The US remains the greatest mass murderer in post war history--the two atomic bombs it dropped, and the unprovoked and unjustified wars in Indochina, Latin America, and the Middle East have killed millions. In today's moral climate this equates to the things of the past. If you add the fact that the US had concrete plans for the indiscriminate use of nuclear bombs to devastate Eastern Europe during the cold war, and was only prevented from doing this when the Soviets developed nuclear protection, you recognize that we are dealing with a very amoral country indeed.

[Talk IT]

All of dem be almost the same except france.
Those ones dey another level.

[living]

for me France na king for baddism
Europe and US are almost the same though

[Scipio Africanus]

General Scipio,
I understand your point, and there are good grounds for making it. But cic is correct in saying e get as e be. The USA's "more moral" appearance is a function of the period of history in which it rose to prominence.

The US is a child of Europe, and is thus very capable of committing similar atrocities (like papa, like pikin), as it has shown on numerous occasions, albeit on a smaller scale. <b>The US is not exporting people for slavery because this is no longer a viable or acceptable mode of business. </b> And its agents and troops will only chop off hands and stick heads on poles if they think the modern media will not find out.

<b>The US remains the greatest mass murderer in post war history--the two atomic bombs it dropped, and the unprovoked and unjustified wars in Indochina, Latin America, and the Middle East have killed millions. </b> In today's moral climate this equates to the things of the past. If you add the fact that the US had concrete plans for the indiscriminate use of nuclear bombs to devastate Eastern Europe during the cold war, and was only prevented from doing this when the Soviets developed nuclear protection, you recognize that we are dealing with a very amoral country indeed.

General Field Marshal Ohsee,

Post war history? You mean post WW II history? Why start there? Why not look at the whole century? Russia, China, Japan and Germany surely come out ahead of the US on this score.

And you mentioned today's moral climate, which we can agree is better than what obtained in the past, even the recent past. Which <b> one </b> country, above all others, is most responsible for setting that moral climate? Please be honest

[Vincent.]

Despite the ill-planned war aftermath and the furor over the prisoner abuse scandal, the US is still a more moral nation than most, if not all, European countries.

Countries like France, Russia, Germany, etc, were content to make millions from Iraq and turn the other way while Saddam was burning people alive, dropping their children in vats of acid in front of their parents, and having his surgeons amputate the hands of dissidents without anaesthetic. I just saw a tape of that horror this morning.

Countries like France, Germany, Russia and to a lesser extent, the UK, encourage corruption in Africa. The French <b>government</b> had a slush fund from which French companies seeking to win contracts in Africa could bribe African officials. Germany had a similar arrangement.

Most annoying now is how content the French, Germans and Russians are to allow the suffering and death of Iraqi civilians to continue, just to spite the United States. They could have sent in troops after major combat ended to help keep the peace and tend to the needs of the Iraqi population, but no, they would rather let them bleed and die slowly, so they can prove a point against the US.

The Europeans think they are looking good in all this, but they look like cold, calculating and cowardly vampires. It is no coincidence that the most blood-sucking of all nations, Switzerland, who make money off the misery of millions, is in Europe.

You have been listening to a lot of right-wing propaganda in the US.

It was not only France, Germany, and russia that had business deals with Saddam. Their names are being mentioned all the time because they opposed the US war on Iraq.

Before Saddam officially became a "dictator," the United Srares was his biggest ally in the West (even to the extent of helping him in the war against Iran, helping him with his WMD, and turning a blind eye when he gassed the Kurds).

The UN' biggest Western ally, Great Britain, also helped to build some of the chemical plants in Iraq.

If we are to count the number of attrocities committed with the help of Western goverments, the United States and Britain are far ahead of most European countries and definitely ahead of Feance and Germany.

Take the past 10 years alone, United Nations data showed that over 500,000 Iraqi children died as a result of United Nations (read United States) sanctions against Iraq. Medeleine Albright even went as far as saying that this number of deaths was justified.

Regarding the sending of troops, France, Germany, and Russia have said that they will be willing to send troops if the United Nations officially authorizes it (as things are, the war in Iraq is illegal because it was not authorized by the United Nations).

Moreover, these countries say they want a share of the authority in Iraq. However, the United States says no: just send your troops to die in Iraq while the US and Britain remain completely in charge. These countries are saying, "If we are to share the burden for cleaning up the mess in Iraq, we want a say in the decision-making process in the country and we want a United Nations authorization so that we can tell our people why we are going in."

I think this is only fair. After all, they warned the US and Britain not to rush into Iraq.

The Europeans think they are looking good in all this, but they look like cold, calculating and cowardly vampires. It is no coincidence that the most blood-sucking of all nations, Switzerland, who make money off the misery of millions, is in Europe

In my opinion, the United States made hundred times more money from the misery of Black slaves over centuries than Switzerland made from a few years of Nazi atrocities.

In fact, the Americans used slave labor to build their businesses and country while Switzerland's banks merely accepted money from Nazi Germany.

Moreover, the Swiss have paid billions in compensation while Blacks are still unable to extract a simple apology for slavery from the Americans.

[Vincent.]

There is no difference between the whole lot of them - US and Europe. Everything you've accused the French government of, the US has done all that and then some. Rummy used to be special envoy to Baghdad and gave Saddam a cowboy hat not long after he gassed the Kurds.

Moral nation my arse. Shall we talk about the Tuskegee experiments? You sound like you've never heard of CIA-sponsored death squads in Latin America.

cic,
What do you mean CIA-sponsored death squads? You dey talk like say CIA jus dey give dem money to act, when in actual fact, they train, equip and "advise" the armies that organize these death squads. I laugh when I watch Americans wring their hands hypocritically on CNN about the Iraqi abuses, talking as if it is something new and "isolated." It is well documented that the CIA has been teaching torture methods to (and sometimes practicing these methods themselves in) Latin America for decades.

Ohsee,

You are right. The United States had its own terrorist training camp called "The School of the Americas."

I am not sure whether it has finally been closed, but I do know that it did train many of the people who terrorised South American countries during the Cold War, assassinating leaders and killing innocent people.

The US was also the main sponsor and financer of the UNITA rebels, the terrorist group that killed so many innocent Angolans. Ronald Reagan even invited UNITA's leader Savimbi to the White house, where he was praised as a "freedom fighter."

The United States was also the biggest ally of Mobutu Sese Seko when he was busy looting his country while the entire population lived in oppression and poverty.

Angola and Congo -- just two examples -- are still recovering from their experiences, while the United States has since washed its hands off.

Terrorism did not start on 9/11, as many people now seem to believe.