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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:39 am 
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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footba ... -760m.html

Glazer accounts reveal Manchester United suffered £60m loss last year as debts reach £760m

Manchester United may be chasing a League and Champions League double on the pitch but their financial results show the club are sinking deeper into debt and posted a significant loss last year.

They have incurred increased debt to their creditors and have yet to pay out on some transfer fees for players.

Accounts released this week by Red Football Joint Venture Ltd, the company set up when American businessman Malcolm Glazer purchased the club three years ago, showed that the Old Trafford club posted a £58.2million loss in the financial year ending June 30, 2007.
However, that was a substantial improvement on the £135.3m loss the company recorded in the previous year.


The latest figures suggest that the club is being adversely affected by the global credit crunch. Glazer, whose sons are board members and occasionally attend games at Old Trafford, borrowed most of the money needed to buy the club, loading it up with debt.
The Red Football figures showed that the club still owes £152m to hedge funds, at an annual rate of interest of 14.25 per

Income from United's run to the Champions League final will boost their income for the current financial year However, the figures also revealed that the club had borrowings of £666m in the year to June 30 2007, up from £604m in the previous year.

That took the total owed to all creditors to £764m, including £56m in transfer fee instalments on players signed by Sir Alex Ferguson. Recent high-profile signings for the club include Owen Hargreaves from Bayern Munich, Carlos Tevez from West Ham and Nani from Sporting Lisbon.

The detailed figures contrast sharply with the club's announcement of the headline figures in January, which highlighted the 21 per cent rise in turnover and an operating profit of £75m. Just last month, Forbes magazine named Manchester United as the richest in the world for a second straight season, valuing the club at £540m, an increase of 24 per cent on the previous year.

The holding company was upbeat about Manchester United's prospects for 2007-08, saying a record 64,500 season tickets had been sold before the start of the season and that the club would benefit from an increased share of Champions League TV revenues.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:44 am 
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http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2009 ... ter-united

Manchester United debt soars towards £700m mark• Losses coincide with club's record turnover

Glazer family insist that debt is sustainable

Manchester United's parent company's borrowings have rocketed towards £700m – despite the club winning the Champions League and achieving a record turnover of £256m.

Accounts published on Thursday reveal that Red Football Joint Venture Ltd – who ultimately own the club – made a pre-tax loss of £44.8m in the year to June 2008.

The group's net debt rose to £649.4m from £604m in the previous year.

In the same period United's chief executive David Gill was paid £1.7m while the former commercial director Lee Daley was paid £470,000 despite spending just five months at the club.

The company made interest payments of £68.8m on loans totalling £699m in 2007-08. The level of debt increased by £24m in the year as interest on "Payment in Kind" loans worth £152m at the start of the season was rolled over.

Of the total debt, £518.7m is secured against the club and its assets, with £45.5m paid in interest in the year beginning June 2007. A further £175.5m in PIK loans, with an interest rate set at 14.25%, is secured against the Glazer's family equity.

The Glazers have maintained that the present ownership structure and debt level is sustainable, and the club has consistently outspent its rivals in the transfer market.

The club's record turnover, up by nearly 20% on the previous season, is partly attributable to rises in Premier League and Champions League media revenues, totalling £90.7m.

The club also generated £101m in match-day revenue and the club's commercial operations generated £64m. The club also made a profit of around £20m on transfers, thanks mainly to the sale of Kieran Richardson, Alan Smith and Gerard Pique, although the eventual cost of the loan signing of Carlos Tevez is likely to wipe out that surplus.

The club also signed new commercial deals with Saudi Telecom, Diageo, the Seoul Metroplitan Government and renewed agreements with Budweiser, Travelcare and GSK.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:18 am 
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Quote:
Manchester United's parent company 's borrowings have rocketed towards £700m


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 7:48 am 
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The issue will truly come to a head once SAF is gone. As long as SAF is at the helm Man Utd will always be a resounding success on the pitch and do enough to sustain such enormous debt. The question in most Man Utd forums is what will the post SAF era hold? A few barren seasons and things could unravel very quickly, it's going to be nearly impossible for whomever replace SAF...talk about the most daunting task in football....

It's highly unlikely the next Man Utd manager will duplicate the vast era of success of SAF and once that happens it's hard to see how Man Utd can sustain such losses and still thrive.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 9:21 am 
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Wait a minute! A club worth £560 milion owes £700 million? :huh: :huh:


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:18 am 
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Tunisian Gooner wrote:
The issue will truly come to a head once SAF is gone. As long as SAF is at the helm Man Utd will always be a resounding success on the pitch and do enough to sustain such enormous debt. The question in most Man Utd forums is what will the post SAF era hold? A few barren seasons and things could unravel very quickly, it's going to be nearly impossible for whomever replace SAF...talk about the most daunting task in football....

It's highly unlikely the next Man Utd manager will duplicate the vast era of success of SAF and once that happens it's hard to see how Man Utd can sustain such losses and still thrive.

with or without Mr. Ferguson, there's no way Manure will not suffer under this enormous debt and its aggressive terms. There's no way Manure will keep winning the EPL and Champions League. The competition are not sleeping, and Arsenal may even deny them FA and ECL success this season, not to talk of next season. I just cant see them purchasing Benzema when they are yet to complete payments for Nani, Tevez, etc.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:24 am 
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oba wrote:
Wait a minute! A club worth £560 milion owes £700 million? :huh: :huh:

The bottom line is its valuation not its gearing ratio. Its investors are clearly unconcerned about the company's ability to service that debt. Until that changes there's nothing to worry about. In fact I'd be surprised if ManU isnt worth more in an open market.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 10:55 am 
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surprise surprise where the only surprise is that it took a week to get posted here


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:21 pm 
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PapaK wrote:
Tunisian Gooner wrote:
The issue will truly come to a head once SAF is gone. As long as SAF is at the helm Man Utd will always be a resounding success on the pitch and do enough to sustain such enormous debt. The question in most Man Utd forums is what will the post SAF era hold? A few barren seasons and things could unravel very quickly, it's going to be nearly impossible for whomever replace SAF...talk about the most daunting task in football....

It's highly unlikely the next Man Utd manager will duplicate the vast era of success of SAF and once that happens it's hard to see how Man Utd can sustain such losses and still thrive.

with or without Mr. Ferguson, there's no way Manure will not suffer under this enormous debt and its aggressive terms. There's no way Manure will keep winning the EPL and Champions League. The competition are not sleeping, and Arsenal may even deny them FA and ECL success this season, not to talk of next season. I just cant see them purchasing Benzema when they are yet to complete payments for Nani, Tevez, etc.



Pay here pay there. So them borrow players take dey win EPL and champs league. Then they have the mouth to critisize Chelsea when we pay cash for our players and this reflects on our balance sheet. Whereas i dont think they even take this remaining payments into consideration in their balance sheet.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 12:26 pm 
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soma wrote:
PapaK wrote:
Tunisian Gooner wrote:
The issue will truly come to a head once SAF is gone. As long as SAF is at the helm Man Utd will always be a resounding success on the pitch and do enough to sustain such enormous debt. The question in most Man Utd forums is what will the post SAF era hold? A few barren seasons and things could unravel very quickly, it's going to be nearly impossible for whomever replace SAF...talk about the most daunting task in football....

It's highly unlikely the next Man Utd manager will duplicate the vast era of success of SAF and once that happens it's hard to see how Man Utd can sustain such losses and still thrive.

with or without Mr. Ferguson, there's no way Manure will not suffer under this enormous debt and its aggressive terms. There's no way Manure will keep winning the EPL and Champions League. The competition are not sleeping, and Arsenal may even deny them FA and ECL success this season, not to talk of next season. I just cant see them purchasing Benzema when they are yet to complete payments for Nani, Tevez, etc.





Pay here pay there. So them borrow players take dey win EPL and champs league. Then they have the mouth to critisize Chelsea when we pay cash for our players and this reflects on our balance sheet. Whereas i dont think they even take this remaining payments into consideration in their balance sheet.


I take it you've seen their balance sheet


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:20 pm 
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soma wrote:
PapaK wrote:
Tunisian Gooner wrote:
The issue will truly come to a head once SAF is gone. As long as SAF is at the helm Man Utd will always be a resounding success on the pitch and do enough to sustain such enormous debt. The question in most Man Utd forums is what will the post SAF era hold? A few barren seasons and things could unravel very quickly, it's going to be nearly impossible for whomever replace SAF...talk about the most daunting task in football....

It's highly unlikely the next Man Utd manager will duplicate the vast era of success of SAF and once that happens it's hard to see how Man Utd can sustain such losses and still thrive.

with or without Mr. Ferguson, there's no way Manure will not suffer under this enormous debt and its aggressive terms. There's no way Manure will keep winning the EPL and Champions League. The competition are not sleeping, and Arsenal may even deny them FA and ECL success this season, not to talk of next season. I just cant see them purchasing Benzema when they are yet to complete payments for Nani, Tevez, etc.



Pay here pay there. So them borrow players take dey win EPL and champs league. Then they have the mouth to critisize Chelsea when we pay cash for our players and this reflects on our balance sheet. Whereas i dont think they even take this remaining payments into consideration in their balance sheet.

na so oh! they are effectively cheating. Which is why Platini was looking for a way to throw out clubs that are carrying too much debt out of Champions league. There must be a rule against the kind of mago-mago business Manure has been doing with 'their' players

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:28 pm 
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smartbrother why are you bothering yourself? Allow people to get alarmed from the alarmist approach, afterall it's what they want to hear. Listening to them you would think Utd was never a self sustaining club to start with. All these coming from fans whose club heavily invested in the crashed real estate market. Obviously some are oblivious of what's happening in the current economy, perhaps some have no losses :lol: Allow Glazer to worry about his finances while you worry about yours. Most of you are still stuck in the way your grandmother taught you about finances i.e. hide it under the bed.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:31 pm 
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PapaK wrote:
soma wrote:
PapaK wrote:
Tunisian Gooner wrote:
The issue will truly come to a head once SAF is gone. As long as SAF is at the helm Man Utd will always be a resounding success on the pitch and do enough to sustain such enormous debt. The question in most Man Utd forums is what will the post SAF era hold? A few barren seasons and things could unravel very quickly, it's going to be nearly impossible for whomever replace SAF...talk about the most daunting task in football....

It's highly unlikely the next Man Utd manager will duplicate the vast era of success of SAF and once that happens it's hard to see how Man Utd can sustain such losses and still thrive.

with or without Mr. Ferguson, there's no way Manure will not suffer under this enormous debt and its aggressive terms. There's no way Manure will keep winning the EPL and Champions League. The competition are not sleeping, and Arsenal may even deny them FA and ECL success this season, not to talk of next season. I just cant see them purchasing Benzema when they are yet to complete payments for Nani, Tevez, etc.



Pay here pay there. So them borrow players take dey win EPL and champs league. Then they have the mouth to critisize Chelsea when we pay cash for our players and this reflects on our balance sheet. Whereas i dont think they even take this remaining payments into consideration in their balance sheet.

na so oh! they are effectively cheating. Which is why Platini was looking for a way to throw out clubs that are carrying too much debt out of Champions league. There must be a rule against the kind of mago-mago business Manure has been doing with 'their' players

Papak, I'm sure you can't be that ignorant, my guess is you live within some cash based economy or are really that rich. If no be sey you be the original JJ shriner, I for yab you well well.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 1:36 pm 
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waffi like is idol is about to get on their soap box


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:23 pm 
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felarey wrote:
PapaK wrote:
soma wrote:
PapaK wrote:
with or without Mr. Ferguson, there's no way Manure will not suffer under this enormous debt and its aggressive terms. There's no way Manure will keep winning the EPL and Champions League. The competition are not sleeping, and Arsenal may even deny them FA and ECL success this season, not to talk of next season. I just cant see them purchasing Benzema when they are yet to complete payments for Nani, Tevez, etc.



Pay here pay there. So them borrow players take dey win EPL and champs league. Then they have the mouth to critisize Chelsea when we pay cash for our players and this reflects on our balance sheet. Whereas i dont think they even take this remaining payments into consideration in their balance sheet.

na so oh! they are effectively cheating. Which is why Platini was looking for a way to throw out clubs that are carrying too much debt out of Champions league. There must be a rule against the kind of mago-mago business Manure has been doing with 'their' players

Papak, I'm sure you can't be that ignorant, my guess is you live within some cash based economy or are really that rich. If no be sey you be the original JJ shriner, I for yab you well well.

haba fela:
this one no suppose cause fight now. Yes, I enjoy some amount of credit even here in Nigeria where interest rate is as ridiculous as 20%-30%. Nonetheless, you just have to wonder for how long will Manure be buying players for 32m, teenagers, for 17m all on the assumption that they will win EPL and ECL. Asuming the cash was there like at Roman's chelsea, may be one can say the acquisitions make sense. But in an attempt to match Chelsea's spending power, Manure have now started accumulating debts even with player purchases, and silly wages to old players that should have retired. It is inevitable, there may be short-term gains, but in a not too distant future, Manure will just have to pay for this financial recklessness. I hope you dont go the way of Leeds.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:43 pm 
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PapaK wrote:
haba fela:
this one no suppose cause fight now. Yes, I enjoy some amount of credit even here in Nigeria where interest rate is as ridiculous as 20%-30%. Nonetheless, you just have to wonder for how long will Manure be buying players for 32m, teenagers, for 17m all on the assumption that they will win EPL and ECL. Asuming the cash was there like at Roman's chelsea, may be one can say the acquisitions make sense. But in an attempt to match Chelsea's spending power, Manure have now started accumulating debts even with player purchases, and silly wages to old players that should have retired. It is inevitable, there may be short-term gains, but in a not too distant future, Manure will just have to pay for this financial recklessness. I hope you dont go the way of Leeds.


The report doesnt exactly tell us how much the company depends on its success on the pitch for revenue growth but I'd be surprised if the 20% turnover increase was wholly down to its EPL and champions league victories. Anyway, as long as their management team can demonstrate last year's growth is sustainable, they'll probably have no trouble obtaining more funds to operate in the transfer market


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 2:44 pm 
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felarey wrote:
smartbrother why are you bothering yourself? Allow people to get alarmed from the alarmist approach, afterall it's what they want to hear. Listening to them you would think Utd was never a self sustaining club to start with. All these coming from fans whose club heavily invested in the crashed real estate market. Obviously some are oblivious of what's happening in the current economy, perhaps some have no losses :lol: Allow Glazer to worry about his finances while you worry about yours. Most of you are still stuck in the way your grandmother taught you about finances i.e. hide it under the bed.

In the many years I've been reading your posts on CE, I have yet to see you ever admit to anything negative about ManU or Fergie. Not once.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:15 pm 
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PapaK wrote:
felarey wrote:
PapaK wrote:
soma wrote:
PapaK wrote:
with or without Mr. Ferguson, there's no way Manure will not suffer under this enormous debt and its aggressive terms. There's no way Manure will keep winning the EPL and Champions League. The competition are not sleeping, and Arsenal may even deny them FA and ECL success this season, not to talk of next season. I just cant see them purchasing Benzema when they are yet to complete payments for Nani, Tevez, etc.



Pay here pay there. So them borrow players take dey win EPL and champs league. Then they have the mouth to critisize Chelsea when we pay cash for our players and this reflects on our balance sheet. Whereas i dont think they even take this remaining payments into consideration in their balance sheet.

na so oh! they are effectively cheating. Which is why Platini was looking for a way to throw out clubs that are carrying too much debt out of Champions league. There must be a rule against the kind of mago-mago business Manure has been doing with 'their' players

Papak, I'm sure you can't be that ignorant, my guess is you live within some cash based economy or are really that rich. If no be sey you be the original JJ shriner, I for yab you well well.

haba fela:
this one no suppose cause fight now. Yes, I enjoy some amount of credit even here in Nigeria where interest rate is as ridiculous as 20%-30%. Nonetheless, you just have to wonder for how long will Manure be buying players for 32m, teenagers, for 17m all on the assumption that they will win EPL and ECL. Asuming the cash was there like at Roman's chelsea, may be one can say the acquisitions make sense. But in an attempt to match Chelsea's spending power, Manure have now started accumulating debts even with player purchases, and silly wages to old players that should have retired. It is inevitable, there may be short-term gains, but in a not too distant future, Manure will just have to pay for this financial recklessness. I hope you dont go the way of Leeds.


So it's Arsenal who have a paedophile policy and, if not, a no-buy policy that have been winning, abi?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:17 pm 
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PapaK wrote:
felarey wrote:
PapaK wrote:
soma wrote:
PapaK wrote:
with or without Mr. Ferguson, there's no way Manure will not suffer under this enormous debt and its aggressive terms. There's no way Manure will keep winning the EPL and Champions League. The competition are not sleeping, and Arsenal may even deny them FA and ECL success this season, not to talk of next season. I just cant see them purchasing Benzema when they are yet to complete payments for Nani, Tevez, etc.



Pay here pay there. So them borrow players take dey win EPL and champs league. Then they have the mouth to critisize Chelsea when we pay cash for our players and this reflects on our balance sheet. Whereas i dont think they even take this remaining payments into consideration in their balance sheet.

na so oh! they are effectively cheating. Which is why Platini was looking for a way to throw out clubs that are carrying too much debt out of Champions league. There must be a rule against the kind of mago-mago business Manure has been doing with 'their' players

Papak, I'm sure you can't be that ignorant, my guess is you live within some cash based economy or are really that rich. If no be sey you be the original JJ shriner, I for yab you well well.

haba fela:
this one no suppose cause fight now. Yes, I enjoy some amount of credit even here in Nigeria where interest rate is as ridiculous as 20%-30%. Nonetheless, you just have to wonder for how long will Manure be buying players for 32m, teenagers, for 17m all on the assumption that they will win EPL and ECL. Asuming the cash was there like at Roman's chelsea, may be one can say the acquisitions make sense. But in an attempt to match Chelsea's spending power, Manure have now started accumulating debts even with player purchases, and silly wages to old players that should have retired. It is inevitable, there may be short-term gains, but in a not too distant future, Manure will just have to pay for this financial recklessness. I hope you dont go the way of Leeds.

The Glazer 5 year plan was not based on Utd winning the EPL/ECL. It was based on maintaining a decent standing in the league and reaching the quarter finals of the CL once every 3 years. Now Utd has won the league twice with a chance for third and won the CL always appearing in the quarters, now you do the math. Before Glazer, Utd could afford 30m on players so there's nothing new as per that and last summer Berba was the only player bought despite the fact that we got 83m (50m EPL, 33m CL) from prize money alone.

As per wages, you may be surprised that the difference in total wages between Assanal and Man Utd is actually not that much. Despite our depth and number of English players.

Manchester Utd - £92.3m (£85.4m)
Arsenal - £89.7m (£82.9m)
The numbers in brackets are for the 06/07 season. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7423254.stm

Perhaps Fergie deserves some credit for having a deep squad on reasonable wages? And which old players are you talking about? Is it Scholes that canned Barca enroute to the CL final or Giggsy that destroyed Mourinho and Inter? Another misnomer here is that a player's transfer valuation is only based on onfield output. You guys like to talk like everybody else is a complete angel* except Wenger. A 17yr old Wayne Rooney at 27m is a better deal than 28yr old Arshavin at 16m (Vidic 7m + Evra 5.5 + Van der Sar 2m). Lets see how many EPL and CL titles he'll deliver. Time will soon tell whether Nasri at 14m is a better deal than Ronaldo at 12.5m. Not many Utd first team players are worth less than 15m to 20m.

One thing I'd also like to point out is that the personal guarantee of a borrower is more valuable. Glazer debt does not necessarily translate to Man Utd debt. Now I'm not saying Utd has no debt but unless the bankers are idiots, they won't be excited about changing loans borrowed against all of Glazer's financial interest to just Manchester United. This is what baffles me about the reasoning in here. Smartbrother's question regarding the balance sheet is on point. If you're a big enough company and Utd is part of your portfolio, 60m in losses in this climate is not overthetop. How many billions has Roman lost? Even if we check ourselves, what percentage of our investments have vanished within the last 8 months? When you guys realize that the fountain of financial wisdom does not begin and end at Wenger's feet, perhaps you'd have some repreive. You're ready to say anything about other clubs but will quickly shout long term when Assanal finances are discussed.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:20 pm 
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theYemster wrote:
felarey wrote:
smartbrother why are you bothering yourself? Allow people to get alarmed from the alarmist approach, afterall it's what they want to hear. Listening to them you would think Utd was never a self sustaining club to start with. All these coming from fans whose club heavily invested in the crashed real estate market. Obviously some are oblivious of what's happening in the current economy, perhaps some have no losses :lol: Allow Glazer to worry about his finances while you worry about yours. Most of you are still stuck in the way your grandmother taught you about finances i.e. hide it under the bed.

In the many years I've been reading your posts on CE, I have yet to see you ever admit to anything negative about ManU or Fergie. Not once.

I've riled into Utd players here several times that even other Mancs told me to pipe down. What I'm against is intellectual laziness as exhibited here. Has anyone asked about how Assanal's heavy investment in real estate is going?

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:46 pm 
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felarey wrote:
The Glazer 5 year plan was not based on Utd winning the EPL/ECL. It was based on maintaining a decent standing in the league and reaching the quarter finals of the CL once every 3 years. Now Utd has won the league twice with a chance for third and won the CL always appearing in the quarters, now you do the math. Before Glazer, Utd could afford 30m on players so there's nothing new as per that and last summer Berba was the only player bought despite the fact that we got 83m (50m EPL, 33m CL) from prize money alone.

As per wages, you may be surprised that the difference in total wages between Assanal and Man Utd is actually not that much. Despite our depth and number of English players.

Manchester Utd - £92.3m (£85.4m)
Arsenal - £89.7m (£82.9m)
The numbers in brackets are for the 06/07 season. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7423254.stm

And which old players are you talking about? Is it Scholes that canned Barca enroute to the CL final or Giggsy that destroyed Mourinho and Inter? Another misnomer here is that a player's transfer valuation is only based on onfield output. You guys like to talk like everybody else is a complete angel* except Wenger. A 17yr old Wayne Rooney at 27m is a better deal than 28yr old Arshavin at 16m (Vidic 7m + Evra 5.5 + Van der Sar 2m). Lets see how many EPL and CL titles he'll deliver. Time will soon tell whether Nasri at 14m is a better deal than Ronaldo at 12.5m. Not many Utd first team players are worth less than 15m to 20m.

One thing I'd also like to point out is that the personal guarantee of a borrower is more valuable. Glazer debt does not necessarily translate to Man Utd debt. Now I'm not saying Utd has no debt but unless the bankers are idiots, they won't be excited about changing loans borrowed against all of Glazer's financial interest to just Manchester United. This is what baffles me about the reasoning in here. If you're a big enough company and Utd is part of your portfolio, 60m in losses in this climate is not overthetop. How many billions has Roman lost? Even if we check ourselves, what percentage of our investments have vanished within the last 8 months? When you guys realize that the fountain of financial wisdom does not begin and end at Wenger's feet, perhaps you'd have some repreive. You're ready to say anything about other clubs but will quickly shout long term when Assanal finances are discussed.

ok oh! if you are very convinced that accumulating debts and operating losses like this is actually sustainable, then, we will just have to wait and have this discussion in a not too distant future. Even Chelsea have learnt to slow down a bit. I'm a faithful follower of Arsene and his policy of not spending more than you can generate (actually, not spending unless it is really necessary). We have enough examples to show us that merely spending for the sake of spending do not automatically translate to success (look at Spurs & Liverpool). And by the way, Arsenal's investment in real estate will come good unless you think the current recession is a permanent problem.

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:50 pm 
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PostPosted: Mon Apr 13, 2009 5:11 pm 
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PapaK wrote:
felarey wrote:
The Glazer 5 year plan was not based on Utd winning the EPL/ECL. It was based on maintaining a decent standing in the league and reaching the quarter finals of the CL once every 3 years. Now Utd has won the league twice with a chance for third and won the CL always appearing in the quarters, now you do the math. Before Glazer, Utd could afford 30m on players so there's nothing new as per that and last summer Berba was the only player bought despite the fact that we got 83m (50m EPL, 33m CL) from prize money alone.

As per wages, you may be surprised that the difference in total wages between Assanal and Man Utd is actually not that much. Despite our depth and number of English players.

Manchester Utd - £92.3m (£85.4m)
Arsenal - £89.7m (£82.9m)
The numbers in brackets are for the 06/07 season. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/7423254.stm

And which old players are you talking about? Is it Scholes that canned Barca enroute to the CL final or Giggsy that destroyed Mourinho and Inter? Another misnomer here is that a player's transfer valuation is only based on onfield output. You guys like to talk like everybody else is a complete angel* except Wenger. A 17yr old Wayne Rooney at 27m is a better deal than 28yr old Arshavin at 16m (Vidic 7m + Evra 5.5 + Van der Sar 2m). Lets see how many EPL and CL titles he'll deliver. Time will soon tell whether Nasri at 14m is a better deal than Ronaldo at 12.5m. Not many Utd first team players are worth less than 15m to 20m.

One thing I'd also like to point out is that the personal guarantee of a borrower is more valuable. Glazer debt does not necessarily translate to Man Utd debt. Now I'm not saying Utd has no debt but unless the bankers are idiots, they won't be excited about changing loans borrowed against all of Glazer's financial interest to just Manchester United. This is what baffles me about the reasoning in here. If you're a big enough company and Utd is part of your portfolio, 60m in losses in this climate is not overthetop. How many billions has Roman lost? Even if we check ourselves, what percentage of our investments have vanished within the last 8 months? When you guys realize that the fountain of financial wisdom does not begin and end at Wenger's feet, perhaps you'd have some repreive. You're ready to say anything about other clubs but will quickly shout long term when Assanal finances are discussed.

ok oh! if you are very convinced that accumulating debts and operating losses like this is actually sustainable, then, we will just have to wait and have this discussion in a not too distant future. Even Chelsea have learnt to slow down a bit. I'm a faithful follower of Arsene and his policy of not spending more than you can generate (actually, not spending unless it is really necessary). We have enough examples to show us that merely spending for the sake of spending do not automatically translate to success (look at Spurs & Liverpool). And by the way, Arsenal's investment in real estate will come good unless you think the current recession is a permanent problem.

Not many clubs can get away with what Manchester United is doing but then we are Manchester United and that's the real deal 8-) Credit to Wenger for building a youthful squad spending less but a 30m plus midfield that includes Andrei and Nasri is not necessarily chicken change. Club A can spend $20 and make $5 profit while Club B can spend 10$ and make $3 profit. Looking at the quality and value of the Utd squad along with their achievement it's apparent that we don't spend for the sake of it. There's a lot of money to be made with success on the pitch. Couple that with the amount we pay them and you'd see we have a good deal. Vidic today is worth atleast 20m. The official CL final jersey comes at a premium if you want it moreso when you actually won. Such is the marketability of the likes of Wayne Rooney that while he was still on his first contract of 50k/week, he was listed in the top 4 earners amongst football players. I can go on and on....
You said....
Quote:
And by the way, Arsenal's investment in real estate will come good unless you think the current recession is a permanent problem


So where does all this reasoning go when it comes to other clubs?

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