Should ANC in SA be dismantled?????

[Prince]

I was listening to the news yesterday only to hear that South African elections were around again. It is a foregone conclusion that ANC will win and Mbeki will be president again.
What struck me as odd was the fact that there was a guy at the rally who complained about unemployment and will still vote for ANC.
My personal opinion is that ANC has fought and won apartheid in SA. They have managed to accomplish a form a stability in SA despite. I feel the main objectives of the party has been accomplished and by dismantling this party and allowing new parties to be formed we can create a level playing field for elections to be fought on ideological but a major minus for this solution is that parties might be formulated along tribal lines.There is no way ANC will ever be defeated in an election.

What do you guys think especially South Africans am really interested?

[cic old boy]

The ANC is a complete waste of space and of no relevance to the majority of South Africans whose lives have hardly improved since Apartheid. The vote and democracy is only valuable if it leads to improving people's lives.

On that score the ANC has failed woefully. And hardly any different from other independence movements across Africa that continued the system of economic oppression that was inherited from the regimes they replaced.

[Prince]

The ANC is a complete waste of space and of no relevance to the majority of South Africans whose lives have hardly improved since Apartheid. The vote and democracy is only valuable if it leads to improving people's lives.

On that score the ANC has failed woefully. And hardly any different from other independence movements across Africa that continued the system of economic oppression that was inherited from the regimes they replaced.

CIC I really agree with you.
Would it be better for it to be dismantled and replaced with proper political parties or would the parties form along tribal lines as in Nigeria

[Mzekezeke]

The answer to your question Prince is hell NO!Your logic is flawed to say the least. Just because an ANC victory is a forgone conclusion does not mean it has to be dismantled.
A lot of black SAN's have an emotional attachement to the ANC that goes beyond mere party politics.(The ANC was originally formed as a Trade Union in 1912 to fight for the rights of African Workers before it involved into a freedom movement.) Until a credible force emerges to uproot the ANC, the ANC will continue to be the majority party in SA. the opposition parties at the moment therefore the DP, IFP,PAC...etc are a joke and they need to reinvent themselves.
The DP is headed by someone who is an ex-member of the old SADF(he happens to be white as well) the majority of black SAN's will just never vote for him.
The IFP is basically a Zulu extremist organisation. ( I am a Zulu but there is no way I would ever vote for Butulezi.)
The PAC 's policies are just unrealistic and the thought of them governing SA frightens me.

The odds are stacked in the favour of the ANC for now, but if they take the support of the people for granted the people will turn on them.
Just look at Zimbabwe where for almost 2 decades the people there voted for Mugabes ZANU PF time and time again but the people eventually turned on Mugabe and the the MDC was born as a result of this anti-Mugabe sentiment. (The MDC basically being born out of the Zimbabwe Trade Unions).The only reason Mugabe is still President is as a result of rigged elections and intimidation .

I see similar parallels with Zim and SA in that the ANC's biggest threat comes from the Congress of South African Trade Unions(COSATU) forming a political party headed by Mbeki's old foe Cyrill Ramaphosa. If and when this happens the ANC's days as the governing party of SA will be numbered.
I know I am going of track but remember that the The old Apartheid goverment came to the negotiating table largely as a result of mass action directed by COSATU which was headed by Cyrill Ramaphosa.

P.S No offence guys but I would hardly look towards Nigeria for an example of a "working" democracy.

[Prince]

The answer to your question Prince is hell NO!Your logic is flawed to say the least. Just because an ANC victory is a forgone conclusion does not mean it has to be dismantled.
A lot of black SAN's have an emotional attachement to the ANC that goes beyond mere party politics.(The ANC was originally formed as a Trade Union in 1912 to fight for the rights of African Workers before it involved into a freedom movement.) Until a credible force emerges to uproot the ANC, the ANC will continue to be the majority party in SA. the opposition parties at the moment therefore the DP, IFP,PAC...etc are a joke and they need to reinvent themselves.
The DP is headed by someone who is an ex-member of the old SADF(he happens to be white as well) the majority of black SAN's will just never vote for him.
The IFP is basically a Zulu extremist organisation. ( I am a Zulu but there is no way I would ever vote for Butulezi.)
The PAC 's policies are just unrealistic and the thought of them governing SA frightens me.

The odds are stacked in the favour of the ANC for now, but if they take the support of the people for granted the people will turn on them.
Just look at Zimbabwe where for almost 2 decades the people there voted for Mugabes ZANU PF time and time again but the people eventually turned on Mugabe and the the MDC was born as a result of this anti-Mugabe sentiment. (The MDC basically being born out of the Zimbabwe Trade Unions).The only reason Mugabe is still President is as a result of rigged elections and intimidation .

I see similar parallels with Zim and SA in that the ANC's biggest threat comes from the Congress of South African Trade Unions(COSATU) forming a political party headed by Mbeki's old foe Cyrill Ramaphosa. If and when this happens the ANC's days as the governing party of SA will be numbered.
I know I am going of track but remember that the The old Apartheid goverment came to the negotiating table largely as a result of mass action directed by COSATU which was headed by Cyrill Ramaphosa.

P.S No offence guys but I would hardly look towards Nigeria for an example of a "working" democracy.

Mandoza,
You agree that a lot of people vote for ANC because of emotional attachments. It would be hard for the people to turn on the ANC because for what it stood for but what we have now are people abusing the blood that has been shed for the name of the party.
I feel it has achieved its aimasand objectives and for SA to move forward there has to be a new beginning.
Because I believe the masses are powerless on this issue. They cannot vote against the ANC because of what it stood for and they cannot vote for others like the COSATU because it would be a form of betrayal I believe we shall have decades of ANC rule.


But thanks for your contribution but do you see a way out for the SA people

[Mzekezeke]

The ANC is a complete waste of space and of no relevance to the majority of South Africans whose lives have hardly improved since Apartheid. The vote and democracy is only valuable if it leads to improving people's lives.

On that score the ANC has failed woefully. And hardly any different from other independence movements across Africa that continued the system of economic oppression that was inherited from the regimes they replaced.

Strong sentiments Sir. But today I can go anywhere in SA without fear of being victimised or bullied because of the colour of my skin.
Thousands of rural folk now have access to clean water , no doubt that such a development is meanigless to you in the comfort of your London home, but to these people its a big development, the old SA regime just did not care about the needs of its black population.
More and more of my people(although admitedly not enough) now have access to opportunities that 15 years ago would have been unthinkable to us.
But most importantly cic old boy we have our dignity back.

While I do not want to excuse the many failings of the ANC for you to state that "The ANC is a complete waste of space and of no relevance to the majority of South Africans" is an outrageous statement and had you lived in Apartheid SA you might think differently.

[Mzekezeke]

Mandoza,
You agree that a lot of people vote for ANC because of emotional attachments. It would be hard for the people to turn on the ANC because for what it stood for but what we have now are people abusing the blood that has been shed for the name of the party.
I feel it has achieved its aimasand objectives and for SA to move forward there has to be a new beginning.
Because I believe the masses are powerless on this issue. They cannot vote against the ANC because of what it stood for and they cannot vote for others like the COSATU because it would be a form of betrayal I believe we shall have decades of ANC rule.


But thanks for your contribution but do you see a way out for the SA people

Prince yes there is a way out for us. Voting for COSATU would never be a betrayal for Black SAN's because they where basically at the forefront during the turblent eighties against the Old regime.
I am convinced that they are biding their time for now but I am sure in 5 years time they or a party coming from them will be the ANC's biggest threat.

SA's problems are complex and they where never gonna be solved in 10 years thats just unrealistic, its gonna take a lot longer. While I am highly critical of the ANC goverment they have got some things right and I understand what a difficult job they have got.

[Talk IT]

Mandoza
I agree with you every step of the way. But there is also some truth in what Prince is saying. For the sake of competition, i would like to see a faction of the ANC break away to form their own part with a different ideology. They way things are as of today, the ANC is likely to slip into the comfort zone which will bring no good to the people .

[SUYA]

Hell no.....the only team that should be dismantled is the yeye Banana Banana team !

[Mzekezeke]

Mandoza
I agree with you every step of the way. But there is also some truth in what Prince is saying. For the sake of competition, i would like to see a faction of the ANC break away to form their own part with a different ideology. They way things are as of today, the ANC is likely to slip into the comfort zone which will bring no good to the people .

I agree with you Talk IT.
I however do not see a faction breaking away as Mbeki has most of the ANC leadership in his "pocket". He has proved very adept at neutralising any potential threats.
I actually blame Mandela for backing Mbeki in the race to be the ANC's Vice President back in 1993 when Cyril Ramaphosa was the natural and logical succesor to Mandela given his leadership of the internal resistance during the Eighties and also given his prominence in the Codesa talks that bought about the 1994 elections.

I believe that this is the last time we will will see this ANC comfort Zone in these 2004 elections. Come 2009 there will definetly be a credible opposition to the ANC.

[Mzekezeke]

Hell no.....the only team that should be dismantled is the yeye Banana Banana team !

Another insightful contribution from our resident genius.

[SUYA]

Thanks Mandoza......jokes aside anybody that trys to mess with the ANC needs to come through me.

[omotori]

Mandoza,
whatever happened to Steve Biko's "Black Consciousness" movement ?

[Fourteen]

Mandoza - thank you for educating people on the way Democracy is supposed to work.

Sometimes I believe my fellow country men have had too much to imbibe by the way of military dictatorship. [Dismantle a political party!].

If ANC is continually voted into power (without rigging), then it is the will of the people for them to be in power - regardless of if the reasons are sentimental or not. (Who exactly is it that is to decide if the reasons for a vote are sentimental?)

Let us even assume that the reason ANC rules currently is for sentimental reasons - do the people that vote them into power get to live forever?

Isnt a current generation of S.Africans being raised that did not live under aparthield?

Once again - Thank You Mandoza!!!

[Akamoke]

Hell no.....the only team that should be dismantled is the yeye Banana Banana team !

Another insightful contribution from our resident genius.

So, Mandoza, all it takes to get you out of your shell is to introduce a topic on South Africa , anyway

My take on this is that ANC perhaps need to be reformed as a political party embracing an ideology. I would not ask for the ANC to be dismantled, that is anti-democratic, besides Apartheid is not fully dead in South Africa, it will take a generation and if anything the ANC is a beacon of Anti apartheid.

[cic old boy]

Mandoza: I recognise that a few rural areas may have got running water, but most reports I have read indicate that a majority of black rural communities have no running water, sanitation, work, electricity and the basics for human existence. Life in the townships is no better from the dark days. These are people who queued for miles to vote for Mandela and the ANC in 1994. "Madiba" said at the time that "at last the people can see their hopes and dreams realised".

What have they got since that statement? The answer why not much has changed can be found in this statement from Chris Stals, Governor of SA's Reserve Bank under Apartheid who was retained by the ANC: "There is no evidence that the present model for monetary policy, which has served the country well, should be changed or abandoned".

The ANC set out to retain the economic policies and inequalities of Apartheid, and this is why they have failed the people that elected them and took the brunt of the suffering under Apartheid. The likes of Cyril Ramaphosa were more interested in appeasing the white business elite - and were rewarded with boardroom appointments, and maintaining the status quo through "historic compromises". This left all the economic power in the hands of the white elite. And we all know that these people have no interest in improving the lives of the black majority. What has really happened in SA is the buying out of a few blacks like Ramaphosa, while the misery of millions of their fellow countrymen and women goes unchecked.

There is no doubting the pride black SAfricans feel about their country after hundreds of years of Apartheid, but the ANC in the name of "reconciliation" has allowed the economic and social inequalities and injustice of the past to continue. They have failed the people who died and suffered for the country to be free.

The way to achieve genuine democracy in SA is for the grassroots of peasants, trade unions, etc to take back the liberation movement from sell-outs like Mbeki and Ramaphosa.

And for the record: I am not saying this because Nigeria is any better as a model for democracy. What is happening in SA in terms of selling out the hopes of the majority, is child's play compared to the situation in Nigeria.

[Prince]

Mandoza - thank you for educating people on the way Democracy is supposed to work.

Sometimes I believe my fellow country men have had too much to imbibe by the way of military dictatorship. [Dismantle a political party!].

If ANC is continually voted into power (without rigging), then it is the will of the people for them to be in power - regardless of if the reasons are sentimental or not. (Who exactly is it that is to decide if the reasons for a vote are sentimental?)

Let us even assume that the reason ANC rules currently is for sentimental reasons - do the people that vote them into power get to live forever?

Isnt a current generation of S.Africans being raised that did not live under aparthield?

Once again - Thank You Mandoza!!!

Lefak,
You might imply that a current generation of SA's that did not live under apartheid exist but I will tell you about a scientific experiment that was performed.

Five monkeys were placed in a cage and on top of the cage bananas were placed but anytime the monkeys tried to rush for the bananas they were continuosly splashed with water the monkeys tried several time they were splashed time and time again even if one of them tried to take the banana the whole lot of the them will be punished by splashing.
One of the monkeys was removed and replaced with another monkey that was not aware of what was going on and immediately he tried to get the banana to its horror it was attacked by the rest of the monkeys in the cage.
A new monkey was placed in to replace another monkey in the cage and it too tried to get the banana but was attacked by the rest.
After a while all the five monkeys in the cage had been replaced by a completely new set of monkeys that were never splashed with water but they refuse to go and get the banana and if any one of them tried to get the banana the rest will attack it.

I hope you get my drift, I feel a new break is needed or as Talk IT suggested breaking it up.
Sometimes the best way fwd might be a clean break from the past a change of mentality and that does not take away in any shape or form the achievement of the ANC.

[Fourteen]

Prince -

I think you are missing the main point. I could argue the differences between the scenario/experiment you outlined and the current situation in SA but that would be digressing from what I think is the main point of the thread.

How do you in a democratic society (a truely democratic society) "dismantle" an existing political party. Democracy is supposed to be about the will of the people. If a group of people have decided to form a political party and they don't as a party go against the rules and laws of the land, how do you declare them illegal (a bettter question might be why would you declare them illegal).

Going by a statement made in an earlier reply, if the sole reason for dismantling the party is because majority of the people are sentimentally attached to it, whose place is it to say that sentimentality is not an emotion that can be voted on?

The best way to entrench democracy is to let it take its slow toll in educating the populace about the power of the ballot.

Every single attempt by leaders to try and "force feed" an electorate in what the feel is the correct way to "think" has ended in the failure or near failure of democracy. - Think about it.

[Chimurenga Rebel]

Intersting topic gentlemen.

First of all I have to take issue with CIC OLD BOY describing Ramaphosa as a sell out.(INFACT I TAKE EXCEPTION TO THIS )
You have to realise that during the early 90's the most important thing for the ANC was to have free and fair elections although they had the upper hand the De Clerk goverment still had a lot of power and they wanted some concessions from the ANC side. It was impractical for Ramaphosa to achieve all the conditions that you refer to in your post.
CIC OLD BOY you should realise that politics is a game of give and take, while the agreement Ramaphosa walked away with was not the best he achieved the most important thing for the oppressed peoples of South Africa, SA's 1st democratic elections.
Ramaphosa is a true hero of the people and he is by no means a sell out.
May I also point out to you that Ramaphosa is not even involved in politics at the moment.
Also reversing the injustices of the past is not an overnight job this takes years even decades especially in a society as complicated as SA.
You just can't go up to whitey in a modern democracy and say "I want your land and money you stole it from our forefathers". Its a recipe for disaster. I should know I'm from Zimbabwe.

MANDOZA I just believe that its a question of political maturity. In Zimbabwe we also had a some what emotional attachement to Zanu PF, but once we became hungry and grew sick and tired of Mugabes rhetoric we severed this attachment.
Also there is a difference between Zimbabwe and SA while the ANC draws its support across all of SA's ethnic lines i.e Zulu, Xhosa, Suthu..etc. In Zim it was different the Ndebeles backed Nkomo's Zapu and the Shona's Mugabes Zanu PF.
I also believe that the South Africans would never tolerate Mbeki abusing SA(there are far too many guns in SA ) the way Mugabe is abusing Zimbabwe.
Also we have have been independent for 23 years and there is a whole generation that was born after 1980 who do not remember Rhodesia at all. What I am trying to get at is that the younger generatin coming of age in the new SA are not going to give a flying *%@& about the ANC's role in the struggle if their are no jobs and food for them, they will base their vote on who can deliver whatever it is they want not who did what in the liberation struggle .

[Prince]

Intersting topic gentlemen.

First of all I have to take issue with CIC OLD BOY describing Ramaphosa as a sell out.(INFACT I TAKE EXCEPTION TO THIS )
You have to realise that during the early 90's the most important thing for the ANC was to have free and fair elections although they had the upper hand the De Clerk goverment still had a lot of power and they wanted some concessions from the ANC side. It was impractical for Ramaphosa to achieve all the conditions that you refer to in your post.
CIC OLD BOY you should realise that politics is a game of give and take, while the agreement Ramaphosa walked away with was not the best he achieved the most important thing for the oppressed peoples of South Africa, SA's 1st democratic elections.
Ramaphosa is a true hero of the people and he is by no means a sell out.
May I also point out to you that Ramaphosa is not even involved in politics at the moment.
Also reversing the injustices of the past is not an overnight job this takes years even decades especially in a society as complicated as SA.
You just can't go up to whitey in a modern democracy and say "I want your land and money you stole it from our forefathers". Its a recipe for disaster. I should know I'm from Zimbabwe.

MANDOZA I just believe that its a question of political maturity. In Zimbabwe we also had a some what emotional attachement to Zanu PF, but once we became hungry and grew sick and tired of Mugabes rhetoric we severed this attachment.
Also there is a difference between Zimbabwe and SA while the ANC draws its support across all of SA's ethnic lines i.e Zulu, Xhosa, Suthu..etc. In Zim it was different the Ndebeles backed Nkomo's Zapu and the Shona's Mugabes Zanu PF.
I also believe that the South Africans would never tolerate Mbeki abusing SA(there are far too many guns in SA ) the way Mugabe is abusing Zimbabwe.
Also we have have been independent for 23 years and there is a whole generation that was born after 1980 who do not remember Rhodesia at all. What I am trying to get at is that the younger generatin coming of age in the new SA are not going to give a flying *%@& about the ANC's role in the struggle if their are no jobs and food for them, they will base their vote on who can deliver whatever it is they want not who did what in the liberation struggle .

Lefak,
I agree with your points and I understand what you are trying to say about not forcing democracy and letting events take its normal course and maybe situation will resolve themselves.
I pray and hope that it happen as you wish, but am too pragmatic to believe that things will change as time goes on but situation might evolve into something worse except a drastical orientation takes place.Dismantling the ANC might look too drastic but I feel in the long run SAs will benefit.

What we have in SA is more of a one party state than a multi party democracy and we know what happens to One party democracy.

TINAYE,
Thanks for your contributions but what solutions can you offer to the problem.

[Fourteen]

Prince you said -

Dismantling the ANC might look too drastic but I feel in the long run SAs will benefit.

My problem with this approach is that it sets the wrong precedent. If done once, everytime there is a slight problem or anytime it suits someone in power, there will be a dismantling of parties.

Let the PEOPLE sort it out for themselves, that way they learn exactly what to do with the power in their hands and do not always look to the "government" to solve all problems political or not public or not (remind you of any country? )

[cic old boy]

Tinaye: I agree with you this is an interesting topic.

My position is that the SA situation is mirrored across the continent, with former colonialists realising that they could no longer resist the independence movement, and deciding to coopt its leaders. That way they were able to maintain the status-quo of colonial privileges and inequalities by creating a veneer that Africans had taken over, when in reality they were just at the "front office" while their former masters continued to pull the strings. It is no surprise that "liberation" brought none of the anticipated benefits.

You say the most important thing for the ANC at the time was to have free and fair elections. If that was the case, then they must have misplaced their priorities. I don't believe the likes of Steve Biko and thousands others died and were tortured just for there to be elections. Like I said before, the vote makes no sense if it cannot be used to improve people's lives.

The ANC could have got more out of De Klerk and his corporate backers - if guys like Ramaphosa weren't bought off. The De Klerk government was a dying regime, crippled with debt, isolated by most of the world, and even losing the guerrilla war. This is why they were keen to cut a deal, not because they were nice guys. Ramaphosa, a former labour leader and anti-Apartheid activist suddenly started speaking the language of the corporate backers that bankrolled the Apartheid regime. As a result the ANC scrapped most of its programmes that were aimed at redressing the injustices of Apartheid, such as the Reconstruction and Development Programme that promised moderate housing and land redistribution. You say "you just can't go up to whitey in a modern democracy and say I want your land and money you stole from our forefathers. It is a recipe for disaster". But remember without justice, there will be no peace. If the economic privileges of Apartheid continue to be maintained, despite majority rule, that is a recipe for disaster. And the troubles in Zim will spread to SA.

Like Steve Biko said, "the greatest weapon in the hands of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed". The Apartheid regime and its corporate backers preached the message that it was "impractical" to attempt fundamental change, that a system that entrenched hundreds of years of oppression should not be tampered with, and Ramaphosa and co swallowed this big time. And he was rewarded for his "efforts".

Another myth is that it takes years to reverse injustices of the past. In Nigeria we are still waiting after 43 years of Independence, while the problems continue to get worse.

[Mzekezeke]

Tinaye: I agree with you this is an interesting topic.

My position is that the SA situation is mirrored across the continent, with former colonialists realising that they could no longer resist the independence movement, and deciding to coopt its leaders. That way they were able to maintain the status-quo of colonial privileges and inequalities by creating a veneer that Africans had taken over, when in reality they were just at the "front office" while their former masters continued to pull the strings. It is no surprise that "liberation" brought none of the anticipated benefits.

You say the most important thing for the ANC at the time was to have free and fair elections. If that was the case, then they must have misplaced their priorities. I don't believe the likes of Steve Biko and thousands others died and were tortured just for there to be elections. Like I said before, the vote makes no sense if it cannot be used to improve people's lives.

The ANC could have got more out of De Klerk and his corporate backers - if guys like Ramaphosa weren't bought off. The De Klerk government was a dying regime, crippled with debt, isolated by most of the world, and even losing the guerrilla war. This is why they were keen to cut a deal, not because they were nice guys. Ramaphosa, a former labour leader and anti-Apartheid activist suddenly started speaking the language of the corporate backers that bankrolled the Apartheid regime. As a result the ANC scrapped most of its programmes that were aimed at redressing the injustices of Apartheid, such as the Reconstruction and Development Programme that promised moderate housing and land redistribution. You say "you just can't go up to whitey in a modern democracy and say I want your land and money you stole from our forefathers. It is a recipe for disaster". But remember without justice, there will be no peace. If the economic privileges of Apartheid continue to be maintained, despite majority rule, that is a recipe for disaster. And the troubles in Zim will spread to SA.

Like Steve Biko said, "the greatest weapon in the hands of the oppressor is the mind of the oppressed". The Apartheid regime and its corporate backers preached the message that it was "impractical" to attempt fundamental change, that a system that entrenched hundreds of years of oppression should not be tampered with, and Ramaphosa and co swallowed this big time. And he was rewarded for his "efforts".

Another myth is that it takes years to reverse injustices of the past. In Nigeria we are still waiting after 43 years of Independence, while the problems continue to get worse.

cic old boy your problem is that you are a romantic and not a realist. Maybe we should elect you president of SA.
By the way I totally disagree with you about your sentiments on Ramaphosa.