@ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

Discuss World Football here. Continental football, International Leagues, and players.
User avatar
txj
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 37887
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:35 pm
Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

Post by txj »

You're welcome bro
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
User avatar
Coach
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 34593
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 3:07 pm
Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

Post by Coach »

The Return of King 4-4-2?

Evolution, spinning its wheel of change to ride roughshod over the then status quo of tactic and strategy, seemed to have dealt death to the indomitable. The manner with which the 4-4-2 was unseated, taken from its throne and thrown to the ravages of the wilderness was, atleast, callous and most certainly Machiavellian. A sovereign that had served its state so well, presided over its principality with valiance and vigor, sentenced to the gallows by way of the pillory.

Wingers who once painted their soles in whitest chalks, smitten from gains of their Faustian pact, drifted infield to taste the greenness of the midfielder's grass. Strikers who'd backed into centre halves, played off shoulders, spun in behind, dropped deep, caught in the gravitational tug of the centre circle. And so did come those falsifications, the culture of counterfeits, knockoff number nines, gloriously boasting their inglorious nomenclature. False Nine. Twas not enough to dispense of the King, the disembowelment and quartering was intent on quiescing any attempt at resuscitation, reducing to rubble any remains that might serve as the deified vestige. The butterfly broken by the wheel.

Suspended from the slipknot rope that plays pendulum with the wind on the flagpost beside the palace walls, the lifeless remains were the dishonourable epitaph to an antiquated King who overstayed his welcome. The King, 4-4-2, is dead.

...The wriggling torso, the gutteral groans, the course of the wind breezing past and whistling within the body. Or so twas assumed. With time, the shoulder girdle has spouted humeri, the olecranon has recruited both radius and ulnar. The pelvis has pushed femurs through its periosteum. The patellar has found both tibia and fibula. Could it be, that once dead, is...alive? Had the world mistook its comatose state for the finality of death? Was the old King lying in dormancy, biding his time like the Plasmodium's hypnozoite, before unleashing a torrent to drown the successionists.

In recent weeks, Real Madrid have surmounted those renowned inclines, Barcelona and Bayern Munich, leviathanic landscape projections, armed with a 4-4-2. Atletico Madrid, no doubt an inspiration to their neighbours, tactically, are on the cusps of greatness, a tour du force to be achieved by the old, antiquated, 4-4-2, a feather in the crownless cap of the once upon a time King. Simeone has built its Arc de Triomphe, Ancelotti too, has laid his stones, for how long will the old King remain uncrowned?

Is the 4-4-2 coming back?
User avatar
txj
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 37887
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:35 pm
Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

Post by txj »

I'll be careful about anointing Atleti. Theirs and Cholo Simeone's is more the triumph of the spirit than any new territories revealed.

If anything, sometimes they look too simple...
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
User avatar
wiseone
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 13989
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:56 pm
Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

Post by wiseone »

The bad results this week for the world's two best coaches (Pep and Mourinho) got me thinking about the fluid and constantly changing nature of football tactics. Barcelona's high pressing tiki-taka possession based game with short passing was all the rage. So much so that everyone else copied them and it became the new ubiquitous "norm". Even amateur players are trying to press high for their pub teams on the weekend.

Now Pep's current and former teams have been undone by opponents that specialise in counter-attacking. Is counter-attacking the next phase of football's tactical evolution? Certainly the type of players bought recently by Man City (Negredo, Fernandinho, Navas), Chelsea (Willian, Salah), Real Madrid (Bale), and Liverpool (Sturridge) suggests that (i.e. athletic players with extreme pace).

This quote by "The Secret Footballer" got me thinking:
When the whole of Europe was shifting their focus towards fast, counter-attacking football, thanks largely to the success of Barcelona and Bayern Munich, teams like Borussia Dortmund followed suit and reached the Champions League final.

Real Madrid broke the world record for the best counter-attacking player in the world, Gareth Bale, but, with domestic clubs such as Chelsea, Manchester City and Liverpool flooding their squads with speed, United simply stood back and watched it all happen.

Read more at http://www.thesecretfootballer.com/arti ... AWqaWYi.99
User avatar
txj
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 37887
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:35 pm
Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

Post by txj »

The counterattack never went away!

As I said in the beginning of this tread, the potentials of the counter have been barely scratched!

I believe the evolution of the game is in the direction of discriminant possession. In otherwords, when and where of possession and not simply in total numbers.

This would mean a new definition of what constitutes balance. Not balance between attacking and defensive football, but the possession and non-possession phase...
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
User avatar
txj
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 37887
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:35 pm
Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

Post by txj »

In terms of the next wave of tactical evolution, I say watch out for Brendan Rogers. Some of what he's doing at Liverpool resembles elements of chaos theory, but there are elements that portend something greater.

Then Rudi Garcia at Roma...
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
kajifu
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 40337
Joined: Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:59 pm
Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

Post by kajifu »

txj wrote:In terms of the next wave of tactical evolution, I say watch out for Brendan Rogers. Some of what he's doing at Liverpool resembles elements of chaos theory, but there are elements that portend something greater.

Then Rudi Garcia at Roma...
So what tactics will real play against this A.madrid?Or what tactics will Real play this time around?
User avatar
wiseone
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 13989
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:56 pm
Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

Post by wiseone »

I like where this is going. Teams are now less possession obsessed, and some teams deliberately allow the opposition to have possession in areas where they cannot be hurt.
txj wrote:The counterattack never went away!

As I said in the beginning of this tread, the potentials of the counter have been barely scratched!

I believe the evolution of the game is in the direction of discriminant possession. In otherwords, when and where of possession and not simply in total numbers.

This would mean a new definition of what constitutes balance. Not balance between attacking and defensive football, but the possession and non-possession phase...
User avatar
txj
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 37887
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:35 pm
Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

Post by txj »

kajifu wrote:
txj wrote:In terms of the next wave of tactical evolution, I say watch out for Brendan Rogers. Some of what he's doing at Liverpool resembles elements of chaos theory, but there are elements that portend something greater.

Then Rudi Garcia at Roma...
So what tactics will real play against this A.madrid?Or what tactics will Real play this time around?
Madrid has only lost once to Atleti this season.

The first thing they do is stand up to Atleti's physicality bordering on violence...

Then they attack them at pace, pushing one wing back high up.

I expect Isco to start this game, especially with Alonso unavailable. Should be interesting to see if he uses Khedira, should he recover sufficiently, or risk the young player, Illaramendi..
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
User avatar
txj
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 37887
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:35 pm
Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

Post by txj »

wiseone wrote:I like where this is going. Teams are now less possession obsessed, and some teams deliberately allow the opposition to have possession in areas where they cannot be hurt.
txj wrote:The counterattack never went away!

As I said in the beginning of this tread, the potentials of the counter have been barely scratched!

I believe the evolution of the game is in the direction of discriminant possession. In otherwords, when and where of possession and not simply in total numbers.

This would mean a new definition of what constitutes balance. Not balance between attacking and defensive football, but the possession and non-possession phase...

The Bayern game will go up a notch in evolution with the arrival of Lewandowski...
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
User avatar
wiseone
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 13989
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:56 pm
Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

Post by wiseone »

It is simply not fair allowing Bayern to buy Lewandowski. They are too good already!
txj wrote: The Bayern game will go up a notch in evolution with the arrival of Lewandowski...
User avatar
txj
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 37887
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:35 pm
Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

Post by txj »

@ Coach,

What in your opinion is the enduring tactical lesson of the WC?
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
User avatar
txj
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 37887
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:35 pm
Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

Post by txj »

IMO, and in the context of the dominant philosophies of the game today, it is the vastly underrated power of the dribble run.
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
User avatar
txj
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 37887
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:35 pm
Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

Post by txj »

And I'm not simply talking about the dribble run from a flying winger, but also the run from open play in general, from central midfield or deeper, a la Yaya Toure, or from the wide player hugging the flanks or diagonal, a la Robben, Cuadrado or Di Maria...
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
User avatar
txj
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 37887
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:35 pm
Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

Post by txj »

Incidentally, this is an area in which Nigeria has been richly blessed for talent over the years.

In wide areas:
- Odegbanmi, Adokiye
- Dimeji Lawal, George Finidi, Amunike, Edobor, Elaho
- Musa, Obasi...

In CM:

- Christopher Nwosu, Igbinabaro, Oruma, Musa Yahaya, etc
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
User avatar
Coach
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 34593
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 3:07 pm
Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

Post by Coach »

Behold the new season and the plentiful discourse promised. Is there are more mouthwatering floor opener than dear (not so) Man United. The kicking and rushing most haste of the Premiership has shown King Louis that, in addition to intricacy to detail, there is an inescapable need to go toe to toe, to have bloody noses, cracked crowns and pass them current too. Caution serves precious little purpose beyond beckoning the predator forward.

It would not be without shame to see him do away with the back three, United certainly have the foundations to entertain difference. A left centre is a must, as is a box to box midfielder and deputy left wingback. A centre-forward wouldn't go amiss, Van Persie is perhaps reverting to type, injury prone and Wellbeck isn't good enough.

Perhaps an authoritarian about the midfield, someone defensively inclined, so as to allow for greater adventure in the wingback areas.
Last edited by Coach on Sun Aug 17, 2014 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
txj
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 37887
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:35 pm
Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

Post by txj »

Problem is United lack quality in key areas esp given LVG's approach.

You can see he wants the out ball faster, more technical and of course more accurate. Its the back line I saw yesterday that is esp lacking, and constrains the team from playing at LVG speed.

And then further weaknesses in the wide areas, not simply the wingers, but the near lack of true wingbacks, or at least players who are adaptable like Kuyt was...

But I suspect he will tweak things some more and get it right.

They were not so bad yesterday tbh...
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
User avatar
txj
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 37887
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:35 pm
Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

Post by txj »

Interesting formulation from Brendan Rogers, more control, greater territorial stability.. I think its going to take them more games for the real shape to emerge.

First Moreno at left back to give greater pace and technical quality at, then Markovic and Lallana to return. Some suggestion about Song for Lucas which I thought would be smart.

Overall I think too much is being made about the departure of Suarez with little scientific analysis behind the conclusions being drawn.

Watching Alan Pardew committing a crime, tactically speaking vs City...
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
User avatar
Coach
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 34593
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 3:07 pm
Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

Post by Coach »

Was it not a lopsided 4-2-3-1 switched to a Diamond as the embers approached?
User avatar
txj
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 37887
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:35 pm
Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

Post by txj »

Coach wrote:Was it not a lopsided 4-2-3-1 switched to a Diamond as the embers approached?
Yes, and eventually to a 4-3-3.

Watched Chelsea v Burnley for all of five minutes and switched to the Barca/Leon friendly, and I was glad I did!

Interesting one to watch this season, Luis Enrique...

The intriguing thing to me thus far is the trick, mid game, with switching the 3 upfront in a 4-3-3 by pushing the two wide players in the box to suck the defence, dropping Messi into the #10 and then pushing the wide backs forward...

Messi becomes the 'anchor', with two sets of players in a V ahead of him, one set on the inside, and two on the outside. Seen it in two friendlies and it was brilliant.

But true test is in the real games...
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
User avatar
Coach
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 34593
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 3:07 pm
Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

Post by Coach »

Almost a centralised three up top with the middle man dropping deep, perhaps a 4-3-1-2 to some extent. Personally, have always felt Barca needed an extra body at the back, defensively atrocious, they'll be clobbered once more if this achilles heel isn't addressed. The signing of Suarez surely mandates a 1-1 strike pairing, as the bare minimum. Then theres Neymar and Rakotic, talk less of Iniesta. A fabulous front five with precious defensive interest of resolve amongst them. Do they split the team into a 5-5, defending and attacking unit? A Diamond would potentially allow for such, almost. A 4-1-2-3 the same. A flat 3-4-3 would be exciting, more so a 3-3-1-3, albeit sacrificing the width privided by overlapping fullbacks.
User avatar
txj
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 37887
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:35 pm
Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

Post by txj »

Coach wrote:Almost a centralised three up top with the middle man dropping deep, perhaps a 4-3-1-2 to some extent. Personally, have always felt Barca needed an extra body at the back, defensively atrocious, they'll be clobbered once more if this achilles heel isn't addressed. The signing of Suarez surely mandates a 1-1 strike pairing, as the bare minimum. Then theres Neymar and Rakotic, talk less of Iniesta. A fabulous front five with precious defensive interest of resolve amongst them. Do they split the team into a 5-5, defending and attacking unit? A Diamond would potentially allow for such, almost. A 4-1-2-3 the same. A flat 3-4-3 would be exciting, more so a 3-3-1-3, albeit sacrificing the width privided by overlapping fullbacks.
What he is experimenting with is a 3-2-3-2, with a high press, but very flexible such that there is a defensive block that takes the form of a 1-4, almost like a sweeper with Matheau.

The key in the defensive phase will be the pressing, and in an interview yesterday he was talking about the shape of the block in the pressing game. And related to that of course is the fitness regime...

It was his abject failure in the defensive phase that led to Delofeu being sent out again on loan.

Watch out for the young kid Sergi Samper; a very talented MF in the Busquets mode...
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
User avatar
Coach
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 34593
Joined: Sat Feb 07, 2004 3:07 pm
Re: @ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

Post by Coach »

As a starting formation, it would certainly be a brave step and possibly a bold one. The balance of the line-up will be importance if this is to be any more than a dream clobbered into nightmare by ravenous reality. The signing of Vermaellen as an outside left centre makes sense, but perhaps this would be a role better performed by Jordi Alba. The wings will be incredibly suspect, but with the potential to drop into a 4-1 or back five off the ball, they may yet manage. Good to see, or rather hear, that they're thinking outside of the box, the standard 4-3-3 will do them no more favours, they must evolve.

Post Reply