@ COACH: Lets talk Tactics!

[Coach]

A flat 3-4-3, diamond or narrow?

As a formation, this remains one's most favoured, sadly t'is so underrated.

[wanaj0]

I know say dem nor call my name but make i tafia small do amebor inside......

Here is the deal....or at least what i think or thought was the deal......

Sir Alex came to this second leg the same way he approached the 2nd half of the first leg....to completely NULLIFY any counter attacking opportunities for Madrid while also setting himself up to spring a counter or two. He did not "sit deep" or "park the bus" as ppl are alluding...instead what i saw him do was the same exact thing Milan and Madrid did to Barca...they boxed them in the midfield.

He had BODIES in the middle...somewhere right behind the center circle lied Cleverly Carrick (a lil deeper), Gigga and Nani tucked in with Welbeck as the spearhead sort of on Alonso. What this did was shut down vertical passing lanes for Alonso to Mesut and closed down on the wings whenever the ball managed to get to Christiano or Angel Di Maria. Madrid was not going anywhere for the first 15 mins and Ronaldo and Angel kept coming infield to more bodies to search for the ball.

Mourinho saw this and reacted first. He switched Di Maria to the left and initally asked Ronaldo to play on the right. I believe he wanted more attack down the wings considering Man U had the middle of the field clogged up with nowhere to go and Higuain starved of service. Madrid looked a little lively after this but then two things happened....Di Maria got injured and Ronaldo's tactical indsicipline meant he became a "free" player and Ozil/Khedira kept picking up the slack for him on the right side of the field. Kaka came in and Madrid switched to a striaght 4-4-2 with Ronnie playing centrally with Higuain and Kaka and Ozil in front of Khedira and Alonso in a square/rectangular shaped midfield formation. The game kinda went into a lull as Madrid's tactical reshuffle had not lasted long enuf to show any effects.

Then came the "DECISION".

I wont go into right or wrong but ill talk about what happened after.

Fergie saw this as injustice and Mou saw an opportunity. The planned Benzema for the then ineffective Higuain sub was scraped and on came Modric. Welbeck had been dropped back as a full time midfielder thus relieving him off his man marking duties on Alonso. Alonso's first pass was no longer to an offensively challenged Khedira but to a "playmaker" in Modric. Man U did not pick Modric up. All of a sudden Kaka/Ozil started seeing space too. Modric was making ALL the right runs/passes. Madrid was a different team.

Me personally, my first sub would have been Valencia for RVP. Leave the tireless and speedy Welbeck as my frontman and have Giggs Cleverly Carrick and Valencia in a 4 man midfield. We would conitune to zonally deny Madrid space and someone would have definitely picked up Modric.

But as someone mentioned earlier, the human aspect of things took over and Man U's players lost concentration and allowed Madrid back in the game. Modric took 2-3 touches before scoring and Ronnie came in unmarked at the far post....those r lapses in concentration.

2-1

At this point Mou saw no need to chase and introduced Pepe for Ozil and went back to his tried and trusted 4-2-3-1. But then Madrid could no longer hold possession as Fergie had introduced an attacking Rooney and forced the game to be played on Madrid's half of the field. Madrid was very dangerous on the counter though through Ronnie and Kaka and the very very effective Modric.

It was a beautiful game of tactical back and forth and each manager proved their worth. Jose dictated how d game was going to go after the red and fergie made the wrong subs at the wrong moment. Still a brilliant game.....

Thanks for the contribution. Good summation...

@ wanajho this is what informed football fans do. It doesn't mean they wanna be coaches. It means they like to exchange ideas and improve their knowledge of the game, thus making them more informed followers.

Its hard to find anything to question about SAF's decisions in either leg until those missing 17mins.

I wouldn't have subbed RVP, but one of the fullbacks, Rafael (for Valencia) or Evra (for Kagawa or Young). Then push Cleverly (or Kagawa) a little forward to pick up Modric.

It was the complete failure to account for Modric that was the ruin of United....left them reeling on the ropes as Jose landed haymaker after haymaker

Except inform FANS show respect to those paid actually to do the job unlike wannabe internet coaches with no pedigree insulting people whose sandals they are not fit to untie!

For your information, the efficacy of your solution is not known until it is tested. So get into the ring and prove what you can do instead of the rants on CE. See the life of Benitez after disrespecting a great man! Learn from his mistakes.

[txj]

A flat 3-4-3, diamond or narrow?

As a formation, this remains one's most favoured, sadly t'is so underrated.

Its a diamond to position the team better to counter on recovery of the ball....

[Coach]

So, this tirade against Rafa BeniTX don reach Eaglesnest, chai!

[Coach]

@Tx,


FL..........FC..........FR

.............AM............

ML.......................MR

.............DM.............

...DC......DC.......DC..


A solid shape that vs a 4-2-3-1, allows for man-marking of both the central forward and number 10/player in the hole. The issue is the porosity of the midfield. Though the AM may be able to engage one of the deep lying midfielders, ala Wellbeck vs Alonso, theres still a free-man in the opposition's midfield.

The next issue is the wide men, the FL/FR should be able to press the fullbacks back, but whose responsibility is defending the flanks, the ML/MR or outside centrehalves? This is where many back three systems have failed in that they fast find themselves employing a back vs a 3 man attack.

[txj]

The real value of the 3-4-3 is te flexibility to manipulate numbers. Thus the back three can become a back four in the NP phase
The wide players press high up against the fullbacks. The diamond is more like a xmas tree, beginning with overloading the '2' (2v3),d then the '3' (3v4)...and so on...

[txj]

The real value of the 3-4-3 is te flexibility to manipulate numbers. Thus the back three can become a back four in the NP phase
The wide players press high up against the fullbacks. The diamond is more like a xmas tree, beginning with overloading the '2' (2v3),d then the '3' (3v4)...and so on...

@ coach

An excellent demonstration of the flexibility of the 3-4-3 and manipultion of numbers by Roberto Martinez (with not a little help from the dinosaur Moyes) vs Everton who are suprised at what is happening to them...

[Coach]

@Txj, re: the shape of the back three. The plus point for Wigan is that they have Figueroa left-centre and Boyce right wingback. With Maynor comfortable defending in the channel, Boyce can drop back forming a back four. The argument vs. three at the back, has been its lack of economy of personnel. In the defensive phase, wingbacks being forced deep by opposing wingers, leaves a back five up against a three, wasting one if not two players. Venebles' 3-5-2, used Neville and Pearce on the outside, both of whom moved wide in both phases of play with Ince the advanced stopper, dropping in to complete the four when need.

Question...


ML/WBL...................................MR/WBR

.............DC..........DC...........DC.............

or

..........................DMC............................

DL.......................DC.........................DR

[txj]

Its not of much significance the back 5 v 3, as long as you have the quality and speed to influence the transition game.

But I typically prefer using the DMC to slide bck and forth between MF and central defence.

The key is timing; the sudden 'arrival' of a player to create a mismatch, either in the NP phase thru pressing or in the possession phase in attack.

On a slightly different issue, did u see Wigan's LCM Jordi Gomez and his brilliant goal. His arrival in position to recieve the ball from I think Bauessejour (or is it maloney) totally suprised Everton.

Had thought he would by now be one of the top CMs in the PL, but has been very inconsistent and not always imposed his technique...

[Coach]

@BeniTX, Gomez has ability but lacks the desire to be amongst the elite.

Returning to debate, many opponents to the back three base their argument on its weakness out wide and the 5 vs 3 conundrum. One has always felt a 3-2 defensive split,

.........dm..............dm.........

dl................dc................dr

This allows for an advanced stopper to engage the number 10/man in the hole, wide backs to protect the flanks and allows for a free man in the defensive phase. In such a set-up, the fullbacks would be primarily defensive, however, movement up field would result in a dm' dropping in to maintain a back three, with an advanced stopper.

Just as the 3-5-2 was brought about to nullify the central strikers of the 4-4-2, one wonders whether a countering strategy will evolve for the 4-2-3-1. Personally, the 3-2-4-1 system is one seldom used in the glitz and glamour of the elite leagues, but one has debated this formation at length on many platforms. This offers the perfect schematics vs the 4-2-3-1, matches it in vital areas and offers numerical advantage in the centre of the pitch, without compromising overall shape.

[txj]

@ coach

Another brilliant demo of the 3-4-3 by Barca ith fullcourt high pressing, great intensity and repeated variation in movement patterns, isolattion of key players and maximization of width

[Coach]

@times was hard to follow their shape, they moved between a back three and four effortlessly. The versatility of their defensive play is an exhibition of its own.

[txj]

@times was hard to follow their shape, they moved between a back three and four effortlessly. The versatility of their defensive play is an exhibition of its own.

On several British media, talk was about how poor Milan was defensively.

WRONG!

They had the right shape, the right distance, and they had NUMBERS.

Its the speed and fluidity of of passing and movement. Look at the first goal for instance and observe the pace of Busquet's inlet pass which sets up Messi. The speed and sequence of events, beginning with Messi' startin point meant Milan could not react fast enough in spite of being 'around the ball'.

In defnce they kept Alba conservative to achieve th back three and then moved Busi central when Pique went to RB. But the key in defence was the speed of Mascherano. Thats what made every other thing in defence possible...

[Coach]

Was surprised by Milan's lack of reaction to the Barca formation. They insisted upon getting everyone behind the ball, leaving themselves with no outlet to preserve possession. Which comes at a premium vs. Barca might one add. They could've done more, the fullbacks could've played higher up the pitch to try and force Alves on the right, to cross from deep or beat his marker. Their right-back, whose name escapes me now, could've done the same with Pedro. Granted the risk was the space in behind, but space has never scored a goal, players with possession do.

Could they have done more to put Barca's defence under pressure. Mamadou and El Shisha were willing runners but easily checked and didn't do enough on the inside. Should've been moved more central to try and keep the defence from spreading wide. Milan let themselves down. That said, Barca on their day are a match for all the Gods of Greek Mythology.

[txj]

Was surprised by Milan's lack of reaction to the Barca formation. They insisted upon getting everyone behind the ball, leaving themselves with no outlet to preserve possession. Which comes at a premium vs. Barca might one add. They could've done more, the fullbacks could've played higher up the pitch to try and force Alves on the right, to cross from deep or beat his marker. Their right-back, whose name escapes me now, could've done the same with Pedro. Granted the risk was the space in behind, but space has never scored a goal, players with possession do.

Could they have done more to put Barca's defence under pressure. Mamadou and El Shisha were willing runners but easily checked and didn't do enough on the inside. Should've been moved more central to try and keep the defence from spreading wide. Milan let themselves down. That said, Barca on their day are a match for all the Gods of Greek Mythology.

The high pressing meant they couldn't do more...

They eventually pushed Abate forward, but what did tha get thm? Alba burst thru for te 4th!!!

It wasn't a lack o reaction. Its the carousel Ferguson was talking about re Barca...

[Coach]

@BeniTX, did you catch the City farce? Ours has been loggerheads with regards to Mancini, frankly, the guy is a joke. The tactical acumen you testify resides within the weary Italian, others would argue, was luck, which has all but run out. Another ragtag 3-4-1-2 that was always going to fail and did so, spectacularly. When the width provided is by two of your slowest players, what is to be expected. The system relies heavily on the wingbacks and Mancini showed a lack of understanding of that very fact. Wrong system, wrong personnel, wrong everything. Why even the need to switch to back three, Everton play with one up front and Fellani behind. Pathetic.

The lack of pace in the line-up was further confounded by a hopeless midfield pairing of Barry and Garcia, both of whom make Mertersacker look like Johan Blake. No control of possession. Have never understood why Mancini refuses to use Sinclair, who would've pinned Coleman back. Nasri even would've given him something to think about. If he was insistent upon a back three, Lescott-Nastacic-Toure, the outer two adept at covering in the flanks. Four across the midfield, narrow and a wide front three with Tevez, Silva and Nasri/Sinclair, interchanging. Comical stuff from Mancini really, another feather in his dunce's cap.

[txj]

@BeniTX, did you catch the City farce? Ours has been loggerheads with regards to Mancini, frankly, the guy is a joke. The tactical acumen you testify resides within the weary Italian, others would argue, was luck, which has all but run out. Another ragtag 3-4-1-2 that was always going to fail and did so, spectacularly. When the width provided is by two of your slowest players, what is to be expected. The system relies heavily on the wingbacks and Mancini showed a lack of understanding of that very fact. Wrong system, wrong personnel, wrong everything. Why even the need to switch to back three, Everton play with one up front and Fellani behind. Pathetic.

The lack of pace in the line-up was further confounded by a hopeless midfield pairing of Barry and Garcia, both of whom make Mertersacker look like Johan Blake. No control of possession. Have never understood why Mancini refuses to use Sinclair, who would've pinned Coleman back. Nasri even would've given him something to think about. If he was insistent upon a back three, Lescott-Nastacic-Toure, the outer two adept at covering in the flanks. Four across the midfield, narrow and a wide front three with Tevez, Silva and Nasri/Sinclair, interchanging. Comical stuff from Mancini really, another feather in his dunce's cap.

He was pants today; spent too much time worrying abou physical battles in midfield rather than exploiting the huge technical edge he has..

Irony is he has been much better than this in several games in the past...He is a bright mind; never mind the brits...

[Coach]

Sorry Rafa, but when called to the stage, he's fluffed his lines time and time again, today was no different. He went for a brawl against a slogger, changed up his whole game plan to entertain the idea of a wrestling match and was battered. Bright mind? Hardly.

[Coach]

Meanwhile, Brendan Rodgers being schooled. Never thought the 4-2-3-1 fit Liverpool, Soton tearing them apart.

[txj]

Meanwhile, Brendan Rodgers being schooled. Never thought the 4-2-3-1 fit Liverpool, Soton tearing them apart.

4-2-3-1? Hardly...

More like 4-2-4

[Coach]

Shock, horror. 4-2-4, since when? Nah, not having that Rafa.

[txj]

@coach

There is talk in Turin about Juve switching to a 3-5-1-1 to enable it maximize its strengths in MF to counter Munich, with Pirlo as deep playmaker, Pogba and Marchissio flanking him, along with the wing backs, Asamoah and Liechsteiner and Aturo Vidal behindthe lone striker, Vucinic or Matri...

[Coach]

@BeniTX, its a solid system, which will offer numerical advantage in the centre of the park against most if not all teams. One has taken a liking to the tactical evolution afoot in Italy, the strength of tactic and strategy is in evidence in Serie A, more than anywhere else.