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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 6:43 pm 
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Agreed, in a 3-2-3-2 motif, with lateral movement of the base midfielders, or outside centrebacks with the former dropping into the backline to form a quintet, there is some degree of hope, albeit it marginal. There would certainly be a concession of ground and possession in advanced midfield, should the holders hold. You'll remember one speculating on the 3-2-4-1 as the future krypotonite to the 4-2-3-1 of old...dropping a forward into midfield, turning the 3-2-3-2 into a 3-2-4-1, offers strength and numerical advantage centrally all the while preserving attacking width. :winking:


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:43 am 
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Coach wrote:
@Tx, the flanks remain the primary focus of attack when facing a 3-5-2 and has proven effective throughout the ages. Overrated perhaps, yet savagely exploited and if not the assailant in the demise of this once upon a time, hegemonic alignment, then certainly an accomplice. With regard to Liverpool, why revert to a diamond when the 3-4-2-1 serves them well? Balotelli, by default, lacks the intention to press as aggressively as his predecessors and no doubt the press every bit as precious as the diamond itself. Mario could perhaps serve the Harry Kane role, Mr Europa till he becomes fully ingrained in the attitude and ethos, even then a switch in formation is not a must.

Turning attentions towards Mancunia, United remain very much in tactical limbo with neither the 3-5-2, Diamond or 4-4-2, mirroring the solidarity of old. Such was Van Gaal's insistence upon a back three in the infancy of his era and the patient build-up through midfield, one would've assumed a double pivot infront of the three would've been his founding formation. A protector of some sort for the ball player. With width so important to the philosophy and physiology of United apparently, why the 3-5-2 with wingbacks and nor a more adventurous 3-2-3-2, allowing for more attack-minded widemen? With a gluttony of underperformers at the business end of the season now, does he place all his eggs in the baskets of serendipity or switch it up once more?

And then to Pellegrini, how best to accommodate Wilfred Bony, 4-4-1-1, lopsided 4-4-2, or an asymmetrical 4-3-3, as was the case on occasions last term.


for me. LVG's 3-5-2 seemed to work best when the much derided Ashley Young was the left-sided Wingback, he was the best performer in that system, and i still think LVG missed the final piece by not using Rafael da Silva as the right-side wingback.
The main weakness was the back 3 that totally lacked confidence on the ball, and tht had a cumulative effect.
I suspect LVG will go back to 3-5-2 as the season fixtures get tougher, coz the 4-4-2 hasnt been any convincing

Now why is Martinez's Everton so rampant in Europe


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 11:56 am 
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^With defenders so poor in possession and at haste to get the ball to Carrick or Blind, who in turn, were often marked by the number 10 or AMC in the 4-2-3-1, the question is, why didn't Van Gaal look to increase the passing options? Italy utilised a 3-4-2-1 brilliantly vs Spain in the Confederations Cup, Pirlo was protected by De Rossi, with the latter a worthy outlet if the former was marked. In United's somewhat 3-1-4-2, the pacemaker was easily encircled and taken out of the equation. Having brought players with the 3-5-2 in mind, it will be interesting to see how long the summer is.

As for Everton, the lack of intensity in Europe has been a blessing to them. The open, expansive approach has profited thus far, but against a full court press, has come up short. Rightfully.


Last edited by Coach on Sat Feb 21, 2015 10:59 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 12:26 am 
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Coach wrote:
^With defenders so poor in possession and at haste to get the ball to Carrick or Blind, who in turn, was often marked by the number 10 or AMC in the 4-2-3-1, the question is, why didn't Van Gaal look to increase the passing options? Italy utilised a 3-4-2-1 brilliantly vs Spain in the Confederations Cup, Pirlo was protected by De Rossi, with the latter a worthy outlet if the former was marked. In United's somewhat 3-1-4-2, the pacemaker was easily encircled and taken out of the equation. Having brought players with the 3-5-2 in mind, it will be interesting to see how long the summer is.

As for Everton, the lack of intensity in Europe has been a blessing to them. The open, expansive approach has profited thus far, but against a full court press, has come up short. Rightfully.


this is why many fans were wondering why Herrera in mid and Rafael at wing-back are out of favor.
They are both very confident and positive in possession.
I wish to see both Carrick & Blind side by side one day soon, i predict 70% posession for us :thumbs:


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 2:06 am 
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benteke wrote:
Coach wrote:
^With defenders so poor in possession and at haste to get the ball to Carrick or Blind, who in turn, was often marked by the number 10 or AMC in the 4-2-3-1, the question is, why didn't Van Gaal look to increase the passing options? Italy utilised a 3-4-2-1 brilliantly vs Spain in the Confederations Cup, Pirlo was protected by De Rossi, with the latter a worthy outlet if the former was marked. In United's somewhat 3-1-4-2, the pacemaker was easily encircled and taken out of the equation. Having brought players with the 3-5-2 in mind, it will be interesting to see how long the summer is.

As for Everton, the lack of intensity in Europe has been a blessing to them. The open, expansive approach has profited thus far, but against a full court press, has come up short. Rightfully.


this is why many fans were wondering why Herrera in mid and Rafael at wing-back are out of favor.
They are both very confident and positive in possession.
I wish to see both Carrick & Blind side by side one day soon, i predict 70% posession for us :thumbs:

70% posession against who?


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 21, 2015 4:38 am 
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kajifu wrote:
benteke wrote:
Coach wrote:
^With defenders so poor in possession and at haste to get the ball to Carrick or Blind, who in turn, was often marked by the number 10 or AMC in the 4-2-3-1, the question is, why didn't Van Gaal look to increase the passing options? Italy utilised a 3-4-2-1 brilliantly vs Spain in the Confederations Cup, Pirlo was protected by De Rossi, with the latter a worthy outlet if the former was marked. In United's somewhat 3-1-4-2, the pacemaker was easily encircled and taken out of the equation. Having brought players with the 3-5-2 in mind, it will be interesting to see how long the summer is.

As for Everton, the lack of intensity in Europe has been a blessing to them. The open, expansive approach has profited thus far, but against a full court press, has come up short. Rightfully.


this is why many fans were wondering why Herrera in mid and Rafael at wing-back are out of favor.
They are both very confident and positive in possession.
I wish to see both Carrick & Blind side by side one day soon, i predict 70% posession for us :thumbs:

70% posession against who?



forget the media noise about long balls in 1 game, this seasons Man Utd averages joint highest possession and is no.2 in number of passes made, so go figure :thumbs:




Quote:

Statistics from Squawka.com show...

- Manchester United have made the second highest number of passes in the Premier League at 12,719 - that's more than Arsenal and table topping Chelsea. Only Manchester City have made more.

- When it comes to possession, Manchester United are the best in the Premier League with an average of 56 per cent this season. That figure is only matched by Manchester City.

Manchester United's passing is also incredibly accurate, with 85 per cent of attempted passes finding their target. Again, only Manchester City can boast a more impressive record.

http://www.squawka.com/football-team-ra ... -&-passing


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 3:47 pm 
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What's the problem with Man City?

If u believe the general opinion, it is Pellegrini and his eternal 4-4-2.

Football punditry is full of clichés and a bunch of loud mouth English men!

There's nothing wrong with his 4-4-2; the problem lies with the squad and the mentality of key players.

Let's take the central midfield:

If you are going to have Yaya be as influential as he is, then there is a problem in both Ferdinands, however the Brazillians choose to coin them!

There has to be a compensating factor....action and reaction being.....

The Brazillian they needed is the one in Wolfsburg! Luis Guztavo or a Mikel Obi with legs and heart!!!

If you are going to have Kompany keep company with the opposing striker as far as the midfield, there has to be a compensating factor....action and reaction being.....???

the fault is not in the 4-4-2, it's in the jigsaw that makes up the puzzle...

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We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:25 pm 
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txj wrote:
What's the problem with Man City?

If u believe the general opinion, it is Pellegrini and his eternal 4-4-2.

Football punditry is full of clichés and a bunch of loud mouth English men!

There's nothing wrong with his 4-4-2; the problem lies with the squad and the mentality of key players.

Let's take the central midfield:

If you are going to have Yaya be as influential as he is, then there is a problem in both Ferdinands, however the Brazillians choose to coin them!

There has to be a compensating factor....action and reaction being.....

The Brazillian they needed is the one in Wolfsburg! Luis Guztavo or a Mikel Obi with legs and heart!!!

If you are going to have Kompany keep company with the opposing striker as far as the midfield, there has to be a compensating factor....action and reaction being.....???

the fault is not in the 4-4-2, it's in the jigsaw that makes up the puzzle...

..that DM area got weaker once they let DeJong go...

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 5:45 pm 
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paj wrote:
txj wrote:
What's the problem with Man City?

If u believe the general opinion, it is Pellegrini and his eternal 4-4-2.

Football punditry is full of clichés and a bunch of loud mouth English men!

There's nothing wrong with his 4-4-2; the problem lies with the squad and the mentality of key players.

Let's take the central midfield:

If you are going to have Yaya be as influential as he is, then there is a problem in both Ferdinands, however the Brazillians choose to coin them!

There has to be a compensating factor....action and reaction being.....

The Brazillian they needed is the one in Wolfsburg! Luis Guztavo or a Mikel Obi with legs and heart!!!

If you are going to have Kompany keep company with the opposing striker as far as the midfield, there has to be a compensating factor....action and reaction being.....???

the fault is not in the 4-4-2, it's in the jigsaw that makes up the puzzle...

..that DM area got weaker once they let DeJong go...



The issue is not De Jong per se. You have to try and see the big picture in front of you!

Its the change in system to allow greater fluidity and in essence creativity from the center midfield position.

NDJ is an experienced player but he has his weaknesses though. Not doing much at Milan btw...

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Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 6:48 pm 
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txj wrote:
What's the problem with Man City?

If u believe the general opinion, it is Pellegrini and his eternal 4-4-2.

Football punditry is full of clichés and a bunch of loud mouth English men!

There's nothing wrong with his 4-4-2; the problem lies with the squad and the mentality of key players.

Let's take the central midfield:

If you are going to have Yaya be as influential as he is, then there is a problem in both Ferdinands, however the Brazillians choose to coin them!

There has to be a compensating factor....action and reaction being.....

The Brazillian they needed is the one in Wolfsburg! Luis Guztavo or a Mikel Obi with legs and heart!!!

If you are going to have Kompany keep company with the opposing striker as far as the midfield, there has to be a compensating factor....action and reaction being.....???

the fault is not in the 4-4-2, it's in the jigsaw that makes up the puzzle...


i dont think anyone is saying 4-4-2 is to blame, its fantastic, a joy to watch in full attack mode when all the pieces are working well, we saw it deliver titles at Old trafford/

but whats in question is Pellegrini' stubbornness to use it all the time given that in some games some of his players are not suited to it.

I made the example that Ferguson the great disciple of 4-4-2 realised that once he lost his midfield powerhouse Roy Keane, he had to start making tactical adjustments especially in European games and also vs good EPL teams., so he rarely used it in Europe.
Actually i dont think he gets a lot of credit for how tactically flexible he was with his CL winning team of 2008 era. Thats also why he got to 3 CL finals in that time.

so since Pellegrini doesnt have a Luiz Gustavo, why be stubborn with 4-4-2 against a team like Bayern, Barcelona or a hardworking resurgent Liverpool.


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 7:19 pm 
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benteke wrote:
txj wrote:
What's the problem with Man City?

If u believe the general opinion, it is Pellegrini and his eternal 4-4-2.

Football punditry is full of clichés and a bunch of loud mouth English men!

There's nothing wrong with his 4-4-2; the problem lies with the squad and the mentality of key players.

Let's take the central midfield:

If you are going to have Yaya be as influential as he is, then there is a problem in both Ferdinands, however the Brazillians choose to coin them!

There has to be a compensating factor....action and reaction being.....

The Brazillian they needed is the one in Wolfsburg! Luis Guztavo or a Mikel Obi with legs and heart!!!

If you are going to have Kompany keep company with the opposing striker as far as the midfield, there has to be a compensating factor....action and reaction being.....???

the fault is not in the 4-4-2, it's in the jigsaw that makes up the puzzle...


i dont think anyone is saying 4-4-2 is to blame, its fantastic, a joy to watch in full attack mode when all the pieces are working well, we saw it deliver titles at Old trafford/

but whats in question is Pellegrini' stubbornness to use it all the time given that in some games some of his players are not suited to it.

I made the example that Ferguson the great disciple of 4-4-2 realised that once he lost his midfield powerhouse Roy Keane, he had to start making tactical adjustments especially in European games and also vs good EPL teams., so he rarely used it in Europe.
Actually i dont think he gets a lot of credit for how tactically flexible he was with his CL winning team of 2008 era. Thats also why he got to 3 CL finals in that time.

so since Pellegrini doesnt have a Luiz Gustavo, why be stubborn with 4-4-2 against a team like Bayern, Barcelona or a hardworking resurgent Liverpool.


If the underlined above is the question, it seems to me you also think the issue is the 4-4-2, at least some of the time; no?

In any case, what is required is much greater discipline in both roles and execution.

Where I often fault City's mentality is a seeming assumption that being the top dawg in the EPL, which can allow u all manner of tactical leftovers, is enough everywhere and every time....

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We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Wed Mar 04, 2015 7:31 pm 
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I think the flaw is that he is not reactive enough when other teams poke hole in his starting formation. I can understand him wanting to find a way to play all his key players and his current 4-4-2 with 2 non wingers starting on the flank (with 100% license to always come central and allow the full backs to attack) allows him to play Aguero with Silva, Yaya, Nasri and another striker.

I think the problem is two fold off the ball. Number one is Yaya's seemingly new found unwillingness to dedicate effort to the defensive phase of the game. It allows other teams to concentrate on putting pressure on him and make him give up possession in the central part of the field. His partner is not disciplined enough to continuously play clean up after him. I think this is the biggest weakness. If Yaya plays, you need two hard workers behind him at this stage of his career.

Number two is the defensive effort of Nasri and Silva. Try as they may, they are no Milner or Navas on the flank defensively. The premise with starting with the both of them is probably that City will dominate the ball and they wont have much defensive work to do especially since most opposition attacks will come on the counter. Both when u face a team that likes to play like a Liverpool and on a different level as a Bayern then it becomes a liability.

The personnel in the formation is flawed both centrally and out wide. Its just a matter of running into teams that take advantage of perceived weakness.

Kompany's errant man to man marking is another story. He likes to play hero defense most of the time and has been burned badly in the process.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:16 pm 
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Coach wrote:
@Tx, does Can stay in defence next season? If not, will cost a bomb to find a centreback as comfortable on the ball, a pivotal role to the Rodgers system.



A couple of things i suspect, re next season.

1. Rogers tweaks his system again by getting a footballer for a GK, which allows the team to play with a GK sweeper.

The effect is to produce 4 permutations of a diamond shape out of his 3-4-3;

Can moves into MF besides Hendo and they take shifts breaking forward in a b2b double pivot role.

OR

Reverts to a 4-3-3, which will require that he purchases a top RB, depending on whether Flanagan makes a successful return from long term injury; and a striker. The young Luciano Vieto is rumored to be of interest.

The MF reverts to an inverted triangle with Coutinho on top and Hendo playing with Can

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Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 05, 2015 11:32 pm 
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The 3-4-2-1 is very much a niche from a number of Liverpool's current crop and allows the likes of Lallana, Coutinho, Sturridge and Sterling to be fielded at the same time. Lovren has been somewhat of a disappointment and certainly won't add the distribution from the back of Can. Is another hefty outlay justifiable? As for the formation, the 3-4-2-1 will remain. Surely.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 5:41 pm 
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@Tx, the first half vs Blackburn showing exactly why Emre Can cannot leave the back line just yet.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 7:39 pm 
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Coach wrote:
@Tx, the first half vs Blackburn showing exactly why Emre Can cannot leave the back line just yet.


Not really although I understand ur point.

The problem was the manager and his insistence on Lalana who offered less than nothing in the 2nd playmaker role. He then compounds it by leaving his best attacking player marooned at left wing-back and his best LWB on the bench!

The Balotelli sub made even less sense, adding another body to an already congested box when what was needed was fluidity between the lines.

A thoroughly daft performance by the manager...

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We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 08, 2015 8:03 pm 
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^Lallana grew into the game, coming to some sort of prominence wide right. The fatiguing sinews of the opposition may well have abetted his better second-half.

Sterling wide left was pointless and meant inverted runs into an already congested centre. Why was Moreno rested? Injured?

Agreed, Balotelli's entrance was more a case of Rodgers believing am extra forward equated to extra attacking threat, when in actuality, width was needed to stretch a compacted Blackburn.

Markovic, poor, as almost always. If Johnson was to start, why not at wingback?


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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:05 pm 
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Ugbowo wrote:
I think the flaw is that he is not reactive enough when other teams poke hole in his starting formation. I can understand him wanting to find a way to play all his key players and his current 4-4-2 with 2 non wingers starting on the flank (with 100% license to always come central and allow the full backs to attack) allows him to play Aguero with Silva, Yaya, Nasri and another striker.

I think the problem is two fold off the ball. Number one is Yaya's seemingly new found unwillingness to dedicate effort to the defensive phase of the game. It allows other teams to concentrate on putting pressure on him and make him give up possession in the central part of the field. His partner is not disciplined enough to continuously play clean up after him. I think this is the biggest weakness. If Yaya plays, you need two hard workers behind him at this stage of his career.

Number two is the defensive effort of Nasri and Silva. Try as they may, they are no Milner or Navas on the flank defensively. The premise with starting with the both of them is probably that City will dominate the ball and they wont have much defensive work to do especially since most opposition attacks will come on the counter. Both when u face a team that likes to play like a Liverpool and on a different level as a Bayern then it becomes a liability.

The personnel in the formation is flawed both centrally and out wide. Its just a matter of running into teams that take advantage of perceived weakness.

Kompany's errant man to man marking is another story. He likes to play hero defense most of the time and has been burned badly in the process.


looks like 4-4-2 has struck again. Or maybe its players. Or both.


Last edited by benteke on Sun Mar 15, 2015 1:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 14, 2015 9:07 pm 
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More professional pathetics from soon to be out of work, Pellegrini.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 2:33 pm 
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Coach wrote:
More professional pathetics from soon to be out of work, Pellegrini.


The problem as I stated earlier is a lot deeper than formations and use of 4-4-2

There are obvious parallels between City's defence of the PL under Pellegrini and under Mancini earlier...

Building a culture around a team without one is a very challenging task. Absent the evidence of availability of a top manager out there and the necessary infrastructure, Pelle stays...

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We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:30 pm 
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Finishing third and disgraced by Barcelona, t'is only right he embraces the scrapheap.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 15, 2015 3:44 pm 
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Coach wrote:
Finishing third and disgraced by Barcelona, t'is only right he embraces the scrapheap.


So you keep firing manager then?

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Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 16, 2015 2:00 pm 
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Nope, euthanasia. Pellegrini is done, he has refused to evolve tactically and is now making the same mistakes as if stuck in a groundhog day. Manuel has had ample time and coinage with which to establish an ever evolving entity, instead, he continues to roll out the same generic shape, system, ideology, whatever the weather, with the in-play reactivity of a retired motor neurone. 4-4-2 vs Barcelona, with open concession of the midfield, one again, what has been learned from past failure? Where is the evolution? He's peaked and is now at plateau, following that plummet. There is every possibility City will lose their hold on 2nd in the coming weeks. He's done his bit. Out.


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