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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 8:50 am 
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@BeniTX, perhaps you could change the thread title to a more general discussion on tactic, strategy etc. Following that, discourse can train in sight on the sham that was Juventus at the Allianz. The 3-5-2 was pathetic, as dead as it should be.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 11:48 am 
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Coach wrote:
@BeniTX, perhaps you could change the thread title to a more general discussion on tactic, strategy etc. Following that, discourse can train in sight on the sham that was Juventus at the Allianz. The 3-5-2 was pathetic, as dead as it should be.

Juve was so poor.I will see how Bayern fair against Barca if both meet in semi


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 1:11 pm 
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Tactical suicide from Conte. There was talk of a 3-5-1-1 in the build-up to the game and this would've served their cause far greater. The 3-5-2 vs a team employing a double headed attack down the flanks, is hear useless, without considerable reshaping of the defence and midfield. The wingbacks seldom got forward enough to peg back Lahm and Alaba. Bayern's pressing didn't allow Juve to build from the back and their formation fell apart. A 3-4-2-1 would've served them better. With two players anchoring the midfield, their would've been someone to pick up Muller and to cover for the lateral centrebacks if dragged into the channels. The wingbacks become wingers and are pushed further forward to engage their fullbacks higher up the pitch, the two behind the central striker can move into the channels, or press Bastian and Thingybob. Conte was completely useless and frankly speaking, should've been made to remove his transplanted toupee and parade his bald patch.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 2:40 pm 
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I thought Conte might hae read too much from the Inter match...Inter are a poor team and I thought he might have gotten carried away by their performance...

The ease with which Pirlo was shackled showed he needed to have started with Pogba and one less striker...Afterall its not like either of Matri or Quagriella are exceptional...

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We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 3:03 pm 
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Completely. They gained nothing from starting with two up top and lost a lot. Pogba would've added some much needed energy and aggro in the centre of the park. Conte showed the same one track mind that cripples Wenger when the going gets any tougher than formality. How anyone believed they could go up against Bayern's 4-2-3-1, with overlapping fullbacks and widemen cutting in, with a rigid 3-5-2, defies all reasoning. Good they maybe, Bayern are not great, rather stereotypically German. They may yet carry the title off if teams do as Conte done.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 5:56 pm 
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Coach wrote:
Completely. They gained nothing from starting with two up top and lost a lot. Pogba would've added some much needed energy and aggro in the centre of the park. Conte showed the same one track mind that cripples Wenger when the going gets any tougher than formality. How anyone believed they could go up against Bayern's 4-2-3-1, with overlapping fullbacks and widemen cutting in, with a rigid 3-5-2, defies all reasoning. Good they maybe, Bayern are not great, rather stereotypically German. They may yet carry the title off if teams do as Conte done.


It could be that he had listened to you guys criticising his 4-2-4 system :lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 05, 2013 6:02 pm 
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Hilarious, absolutely. Bravo.


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:19 pm 
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@BeniTX, where to for Liverpool next season, tactically? Should Rodgers persist with the 4-2-3-1 or evolve? Much to Liverpool's favour, Steven Gerrard's engine is running out of puff, forcing him to make more measured runs as opposed to the energizer bunny antics, we've all become accustomed to. Can he play a deep lying role, allowing someone like Coutinho to take over as the creative hub?

Transfer wise, where do they strengthen?


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 6:44 pm 
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Coach wrote:
@BeniTX, where to for Liverpool next season, tactically? Should Rodgers persist with the 4-2-3-1 or evolve? Much to Liverpool's favour, Steven Gerrard's engine is running out of puff, forcing him to make more measured runs as opposed to the energizer bunny antics, we've all become accustomed to. Can he play a deep lying role, allowing someone like Coutinho to take over as the creative hub?

Transfer wise, where do they strengthen?


Its basically a 4-3-3, although he does tweak it every once in a while, when he has Sturridge and Suarez on. But that has burdened the MF too much, esp with Lucas not back 100%.

I see him persisting with that, esp if he gets his targets for the summer.

A CD is a must with Carragher retiring; possibly two if Skrtel or Coates leaves.

But the key is in MF.

There is rumor about Ericksen and possibly a RM, Tom Ince, with Assaidi departing;

Also a CM/DM with technique, pace and power for a box-to-box role...which creates the platform for Gerard to play as a deep lying playmker.

Personally, if Ericksen does arrive, I think he should sell Henderson.

He should also sell Borini who cannot stay healthy and invest in a more estalished or younger/talented striker,lik Stevan Jovetic.

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We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Mon Apr 22, 2013 7:52 pm 
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Jovetic is grossly overrated. Not sure how you'll get the best out of Coutinho in a 4-3-3.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:42 am 
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Coach wrote:
Jovetic is grossly overrated. Not sure how you'll get the best out of Coutinho in a 4-3-3.


Not sure you know enough about Jovetic!

The problem Brendan has in the current 4-3-3 is in the weakness of his 3rd midfielder. He gets that right, and he has the platform for the front trio to perfom.

He has Coutinho's position well taken care of, starting from wide left and then drifting to the center. Its about fluidity and movement between the lines...

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Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 7:55 am 
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Not able to effect the game as much as his ability should allow starting in a wide position [Coutinho].

Re: Jovetic, will go on record as saying he will be a failure in the Premiership. Will happily eat one's words if he does otherwise. Is all well and good doing it in the slow coach Serie A, on the occasions one has bothered to watch him, he's looked indecisive, over elaborate and rash. vs England was a prime example. He may come good, but will need alot of coaching to get there.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:43 pm 
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Coach wrote:
Not able to effect the game as much as his ability should allow starting in a wide position [Coutinho].

Re: Jovetic, will go on record as saying he will be a failure in the Premiership. Will happily eat one's words if he does otherwise. Is all well and good doing it in the slow coach Serie A, on the occasions one has bothered to watch him, he's looked indecisive, over elaborate and rash. vs England was a prime example. He may come good, but will need alot of coaching to get there.



Thats the position he's played at Inter. IMO it affords him the space to be effective as he is able to take up positions centrally, but starting from wide. In the formation, he's not a wide midfielder.

I don't believe you hve seen much of Jovetic; his pace is blistering...

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Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:48 pm 
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Re:I don't believe you hve seen much of Jovetic; his pace is blistering...

So is Walcott's.


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:51 pm 
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Coach wrote:
Re:I don't believe you hve seen much of Jovetic; his pace is blistering...

So is Walcott's.



The Walcott comparison is final proof you don't know enough about him....

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Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:07 pm 
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On the contrary, it confirms you have no concept of blistering pace.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 24, 2013 7:22 am 
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Returning to countering the 4-2-3-1. Over the past 2 evenings, we've seen non-existent attempts to nullify the gains of the 4-2-3-1 and the strengths of such a system illuminated. Both Barca and more so Real, used 4-3-3s that should've offered an extra body in midfield and near enough, man for man elsewhere, that were seemingly overrun.

Image Image

Tactically, the 4-3-3 (4-1-2-3) was set up to fail and did, spectacularly. Part of the rationale behind the move to 4-2-3-1 ironically, was Barca's use of a false nine, one may argue that Roma's 4-6-0, necessitated greater consideration for the space between defence and midfield.

Busquets, the solitary anchor: Far too much responsibility was placed on his shoulders and t'is no surprise that Bayern saw so much jot inside left. With Muller moving laterally, Busquets was left with the choice of following his man, or marking zonally. Similarly to Dortmund a day later, the anchoring midfielder held his zone and the rest was history. With Robben cutting in field, t'was obvious that Bayern were exploiting the weakness of the 4-3-3, its deficiency in the central defensive zone of midfield. Goetze would do the same to Madrid, Alonso was Busquetsed!

Narrow or wide, the fullback's dilemma: With the aforementioned space to run into from wide areas, centrally, the domino effect of the 4-3-3's weakness was to pass the dutchie on to the left-handside. Both a consequence of Busquets being overloaded and Bartra being useless, Jordi Alba defended closer to his centre-back. Mueller moved wider, Lahm overlapped and the molehill became a mountain. Once again, Dortmund would do the same to Real, tripling up on Contraeo, with Goetze's lateral movements and Alonso's inability to track his man into the channels. Though Contraeo defended wider than Alba, t'was evident that, the weakness centrally, had a knock on effect out wide.


Just as the 4-4-2 fell at the feet of the 4-3-3, the latter's blood slides down the sword of the 4-2-3-1. Evolution mandates that one must follow the other, nature selects its triumphants, why two coaches attempted to fight today with yesterday's past-dated weapons remains a mystery.

Do Barcelona have the personnel to do otherwise? In the aftermath of their assault, discourse has centred on a lack of Plan B. Besides representing another letter along in the alphabet, what exactly is Plan B? Rational thought would argue, t'is a countering strategy to the dominant ideology of the times that seeks to snatch the crown from its head. The past two evenings have showcased near perfect execution of the 4-2-3-1, t'is those gains it offers that form the blueprint for any kryptonitic counter, for any Plan B.

3, is the magic number.
Seldom is 3 greater than 4, but in the context of defending against an opposition that seeks to flood the centre with diagonal movements of its wide players, an extra body centrally, allows for man to man marking once zones are invaded. Worried about the overlap, Alba seldom followed Robben infield. Busquets was lost, Mueller or Arjen, Mueller or Arjen? In the end, neither. The left sided-centreback can engage Robben in the wings, knowing they have numbers centrally and can follow him infield to his starting position. But what about the space left behind as he moves wide?

Two anchoring midfielders.
Just as the 4-2-3-1 has shown, the benefit of having two anchors is that one can press, the other can cover. As few teams have two players in the hole, it means a false nine can be shut down without compromising the defensive shape. Bastian and Martinez took turns to rattle Messi and Iniesta, forcing them deeper and deeper. Two ahead of the back three allows one to drop into the back line as the outside centre moves towards the channels and keeps a man free to man-mark Mueller/Goetze. Regarding the lateral runs of the aforementioned, they can be tracked by the anchoring midfielder, knowing full well they have four bodies centrally, three if one of the centres has moved wide. Theres a free man to check runs from midfield and to offer cover where needed.

The aged look of the Old Lady.
Juventus spring to mind, when discourse drifts towards a back three. 'They were Muniched too' some might argue. Indeed they were. But the difference here is that, theirs is a 3-1-4-1-1/3-1-4-2, the one ahead of the defence being their creative hub, as opposed to a defensive linchpin. They defend with a back five, much to their own detriment, by dropping their wide men back. Works a treat in Italy, easily picked off by the 4-2-3-1. The flat back five leaves players marking nothing centrally, whilst watching their flanks tag teamed.

The two ahead of the three in Plan B, are not there to create, but rather serve as advanced stoppers, defenders ahead of the defence.

Beating Bastian.
The glaringly obvious weakness of the 4-3-3 vs Bayern/Dortmund, was that it allowed the two base midfielders to dominate, neither had a direct opponent. Iniesta and Xavi dropped deep, Modric and Khedeira seldom got close enough to push them back. In theory, the two more offensively minded midfielders should've engaged the base pair, leaving the centrehalves open to the inward runs from wide. Theory never transpired. Such was the suffering of the 4-1, behind the 2 in midfield, they had to drop deep to release the pressure and offer an out ball. T'was no surprise to see Bastian and Martinez, Bender and Gundogan so dominant. The tactics played right into their palms.

In the knowledge that there is a solid central core behind them, in a 3-2 split, thus not replicating the errors of Conte's formation, Plan B, has two central midfielders pressing up against the the base of the 4-2-3-1. The midfield is completed with two wide men charged with holding width high up the pitch to press the fullbacks. Left foots on left wings, right foots on right wings. This effectively isolates the fullbacks in a one vs one situation, the cutting infield, as was plentiful in the 4-3-3, allowed the base midfield to take over the duty of tracking the runner without losing sight of the false nine.

Behind enemy lines.
With the out balls covered, fullbacks and base midfielders marked, the centre forward plays as such, high up against the centrehalves to exploit any spillages. Dropping a little deeper allows him to control the space between the 4 and 2 of the 4-2-3-1. The centrehalves will seldom follow the forward outside of their zone and with the base midfield having direct opponents, he is afforded the freedom the centrehalves give him.


Plan B, 3-2-4-1


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:44 pm 
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BeniTX, over to you.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:19 pm 
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I'm a little concerned that u maybe overestimating a bit about the tactical import of the games, primarily Barcas'.

Barcelona have not been in good physical shape since the 2nd half of the season, andthis result was a long time coming. In the past they usually drop a level in February and then rebound in March all the way thru May. Any regular observer of Barca can confirm this...

The difference between Barca and Munich was almost entirely physical. I'm not in any way trying to downplay Munich's performance, but on the day, one side was fresh and the other appeared slightly jaded, and were outnumbered or overpowered in all areas and phases of the game. Milan achieved the same thing, but lacked the quality to make Barca pay. IMO its the gap between the physical shape of the two that laid the platform for the tactics to be so effective, not the other way round.

The Barcelona model is a very complex and challenging system that places great demand on conditioning to enable the coordinated movement of both man and ball at tempo, without which possession becomes merely a sterile statistic. Tito's attempt to conserve energy by changing the high pressing system has proved futile.

IMO the real failure was Madrid's. Why?

They are specifically conditioned to hit their peak at this point and have actually been at their best this season in the last two months. The suprise for me was how effective Dortmund was in forcing Madrid to play at a faster tempo than they like to; to make decisons faster and to take away their inside game.

The decisive tactical roles in both games has been the defensive role of the wide players in the non-possession phase...

Coach wrote:
BeniTX, over to you.

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Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:56 pm 
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Both Spanish sides lost the battles across the pitch and ultimately, the war. The 4-3-3 was exposed consistently by the same system, the same strategy. Granted the Germans were bigger, fitter, stronger, but size mattered not when finding space and exploiting tactical frailties. The downfall of both Barca and Real was their belief that they could mark zonally across the field, not realising the key players were popping up in different zones, doubling the defensive requirements within them.


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:19 pm 
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Coach wrote:
Both Spanish sides lost the battles across the pitch and ultimately, the war. The 4-3-3 was exposed consistently by the same system, the same strategy. Granted the Germans were bigger, fitter, stronger, but size mattered not when finding space and exploiting tactical frailties. The downfall of both Barca and Real was their belief that they could mark zonally across the field, not realising the key players were popping up in different zones, doubling the defensive requirements within them.



First, u are failing to seperate both gams. They were vastly different games, never mind the germans scored four in each...

Barca was caught out by two set pieces, and two counterattacks.

Madrid was never caught out for size or fitness, if anything, they were bigger. They simply failed to match the tatical play, work rate and mobility of Dortmund..., especially from their trio in their own version of the 4-2-3-1 (not 4-3-3)

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Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 10:23 am 
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@Tx, theirs [Madrid] was not a 4-2-3-1, Alonso was deep to Khedeira and Modric, t'was a 4-1-2-3/4-3-3 whichever way you look at it. In both games, the influenital players were the two holding men and the man in the hole. As would be expected when a 4-2-3-1 meets a 4-3-3 ten times out of ten. Both teams suffered tactical defeats.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 26, 2013 1:13 pm 
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I think u are getting confused by Khedira's role in the pressing system and the isolation of Alonso in the possession phase to create room for his role as deep lying playmaker. It a 4-2-3-1 base formation for Madrid.

The biggest factor for me was Dortmund's speed in re-establishing its defensive shape in the non-possession phase.There is no better team at this in Europe. They gave up on full court high press to do this and took away Madrid's primacy on the counter, and esp Alonso's influence on the game, without resorting to the Wellbeck role that United used. In turn, this then forced madrid to play more of the possession game than Jose is comfy with..

By doubling up in the wide areas, they took away CR's and Ozil's diagonal runs, having already stunted Alonso's ability to find them with the diagonals... But the real clincher for me was Gundogan's ability in possession. It totally redifined the game and allowed Dortmund to set a high tempo which Madrid could never come to terms with...and place men in space between the lines...

Whereas Bayern's game was about the 2nd phase of pressing and the counter from deep, Dortmund's game was much more dominant across the pitch...

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Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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