Moyes snubbed Ferguson's advice

[cic old boy]

You aren’t getting your own point.

You gave reason for United dominating EPL in which you refused to give credit to Alex Ferguson. You said it was cos Jose left Chelsea and I said Man Utd won the league b4 Jose left Chelsea. Funny enough, is this not the same Jose you castigate every now and then, caricaturing him with the name Borinho? But because it suits your argument, you turn around to imply that it was cos of him [and his ability, I guess that United lost the EPL.

You also said it was cos of Chelsea's reduced spending so the squad wasn’t strengthened and I replied that Man Utd also reduced spending too in order to manage its debts. Thankfully, you have confirmed that debt angle. You added that it was cos Arsenal sold players that they couldn’t challenge for titles and I said Man Utd also sold players, not least CRonaldo, as you yourself agreed.

And how did Arsenal reaching the final of the UCL affect the EPL? Did Arsenal use the form of the UCL to challenge for the EPL? Arsenal actually had their worst performance in that year over the period they have been qualifying for the UCL by coming 4th. I have never read anywhere where UCL performance determine local league placement. The two are not mutually exclusive. In the year Arsenal went unbeaten in the league, did they also go unbeaten in Europe?

If the two depended on each other, the way you are making it to be, then clubs like Lyon, Celtic etc should be the best in Europe. In fact, weak performance in Europe is more likely to aid performance in the local league but in all the years that Arsenal flustered in Europe they never even mounted any challenge in EPL because the Fergie was the Sherriff who ruled the roost.

You claimed all these things reduced the opposition to Man Utd and I replied all these things also happened to Man Utd but Fergie, whom you do not want to give credit to, managed them well enough, reinventing the team when necessary. If as you agreed that the quality of Man Utd players dropped, by saying “Yeah, Stam, Cantona, RVN were quality and do you think Welbeck, Smalling, Evans, etc are in the same league?” how come you didn’t relate that to the quality of the league that you claimed also dropped because of all those things that happened to Arsenal, Liverpool & Chelsea? When the league had all the qualities you outlined, Man Utd had all its toughest guns on parade and when the quality dropped according to you, you also agreed that the strength of Man Utd decreased. This is congruous enough. But you never mentioned that Man City somewhat raised the bar sha.

So now that Moyes is in charge and has inherited almost all the squad players of Ferguson, let us us see how he will do what Alex Ferguson did, especially, as you think that Man Utd’s under Fergie wasn’t due to Fergie but rather due to what happened to the opposition. Of course, I hope Moyes does.

This is embarrassing. If Borinho won the league twice in the 3 years he was in England, does that mean Manure “dominating” the EPL in that period? We can have a discussion about Borinho if it pleases you. But my criticism of him is implicit in the name I gave him. His teams play boring football. I never claimed it wasn’t effective. I also said there was another factor in Chelski’s success in that period – the depth of the squad (from the millions spent). The trouble with groupies like you is you don’t even understand the league you claim to follow.

I don’t know why you keep embarrassing yourself with who sold who. I acknowledged the decline in quality at Manure. I said the current squad is pretty average. I contrasted Stam and co with the current shower. I said Manure continued to win with an average squad b/c the opposition was crap AND Fergie got favours from refs! This statement means that:
1. Manure was not winning b/c they were a great team.
2. They were not winning b/c Fergie was some sort of magician.
3. Although Manure were pretty average, the opposition was fairly worse.
4. Manure was getting at least 10 points a season from Fergie’s cosy arrangement with refs.

Now, which bit of these don’t you understand?

Nothing demonstrates your limited understanding of the game more than your question about the Arse. The Arse almost becoming champions of Europe is an indication of their quality. Go and look up their line-up at that CL final. That sort of quality means they will provide stiff domestic competition. This was also around the time they went the entire season unbeaten. It was when Henry, Pires, Vieira, Campbell, Lauren, etc played for them. Manure were not dominating the EPL at that time b/c of the quality of the Arse. When the Arse started selling those players and replacing them with poorer quality, they stopped reaching CL finals, stopped winning the EPL, even sold their best player to Manure and made life in the EPL easier for Manure. Simple logic that seems to evade you.

There is no sense in the question whether when the Arse were unbeaten in the league were they unbeaten in Europe. What point are you trying to make? In the domestic league you are bound to play teams of lesser quality than in the CL, where you are playing the top teams from each domestic league. What the heck are you on about?

The same Man City that you claimed raised the bar have not escaped the group stages in the CL for two years running, showing how low the bar was in the first place! If players of the quality of Stam, Cantona and co were still at Manure and the Arse and Liverpool were still at the level they were when they played in CL finals, and Chelski and Borinho were still at their early Roman empire days, Manure would not have won as many EPL titles b/c of the strength of the competition! That’s precisely my point.

Moyes with Fergie’s average squad is struggling b/c even with the crap opposition he doesn’t have Fergie’s control over refs! It’s like Manure have been docked about 10 points b/4 a ball is kicked!

[tfco]

in summary

SAF's success at United was due to poor competition and refs.

And here I was thinking he was a good coach.

[cic old boy]

in summary

SAF's success at United was due to poor competition and refs.

And here I was thinking he was a good coach.

Many in the game rate his management, not his coaching.

[anointed]

in summary

SAF's success at United was due to poor competition and refs.

And here I was thinking he was a good coach.

Na so we see am o.

[cic old boy]

Na so we see am o.

I don't expect "WE" to see it any differently!

[anointed]

in summary

SAF's success at United was due to poor competition and refs.

And here I was thinking he was a good coach.

Many in the game rate his management, not his coaching.

He was the team's manager anyway.

But who are the "many"?

[anointed]

Na so we see am o.

I don't expect "WE" to see it any differently!

I don't expect "them" to see it the same.

[cic old boy]

He was the team's manager anyway.

But who are the "many"?

Some managers are good coaches too.

The “many” are not “WE”.

[anointed]

He was the team's manager anyway.

But who are the "many"?

Some managers are good coaches too.

The “many” are not “WE”.

Obviously, "many" is just your way of ascribing unscientific, untruthful and wild claims to invisible and non-existent people and, at the same time, your getaway route when writing pointlessly like a broken pencil.

[EagleGunner]

You aren’t getting your own point.

You gave reason for United dominating EPL in which you refused to give credit to Alex Ferguson. You said it was cos Jose left Chelsea and I said Man Utd won the league b4 Jose left Chelsea. Funny enough, is this not the same Jose you castigate every now and then, caricaturing him with the name Borinho? But because it suits your argument, you turn around to imply that it was cos of him [and his ability, I guess that United lost the EPL.

You also said it was cos of Chelsea's reduced spending so the squad wasn’t strengthened and I replied that Man Utd also reduced spending too in order to manage its debts. Thankfully, you have confirmed that debt angle. You added that it was cos Arsenal sold players that they couldn’t challenge for titles and I said Man Utd also sold players, not least CRonaldo, as you yourself agreed.

And how did Arsenal reaching the final of the UCL affect the EPL? Did Arsenal use the form of the UCL to challenge for the EPL? Arsenal actually had their worst performance in that year over the period they have been qualifying for the UCL by coming 4th. I have never read anywhere where UCL performance determine local league placement. The two are not mutually exclusive. In the year Arsenal went unbeaten in the league, did they also go unbeaten in Europe?

If the two depended on each other, the way you are making it to be, then clubs like Lyon, Celtic etc should be the best in Europe. In fact, weak performance in Europe is more likely to aid performance in the local league but in all the years that Arsenal flustered in Europe they never even mounted any challenge in EPL because the Fergie was the Sherriff who ruled the roost.

You claimed all these things reduced the opposition to Man Utd and I replied all these things also happened to Man Utd but Fergie, whom you do not want to give credit to, managed them well enough, reinventing the team when necessary. If as you agreed that the quality of Man Utd players dropped, by saying “Yeah, Stam, Cantona, RVN were quality and do you think Welbeck, Smalling, Evans, etc are in the same league?” how come you didn’t relate that to the quality of the league that you claimed also dropped because of all those things that happened to Arsenal, Liverpool & Chelsea? When the league had all the qualities you outlined, Man Utd had all its toughest guns on parade and when the quality dropped according to you, you also agreed that the strength of Man Utd decreased. This is congruous enough. But you never mentioned that Man City somewhat raised the bar sha.

So now that Moyes is in charge and has inherited almost all the squad players of Ferguson, let us us see how he will do what Alex Ferguson did, especially, as you think that Man Utd’s under Fergie wasn’t due to Fergie but rather due to what happened to the opposition. Of course, I hope Moyes does.

This is embarrassing. If Borinho won the league twice in the 3 years he was in England, does that mean Manure “dominating” the EPL in that period? We can have a discussion about Borinho if it pleases you. But my criticism of him is implicit in the name I gave him. His teams play boring football. I never claimed it wasn’t effective. I also said there was another factor in Chelski’s success in that period – the depth of the squad (from the millions spent). The trouble with groupies like you is you don’t even understand the league you claim to follow.

I don’t know why you keep embarrassing yourself with who sold who. I acknowledged the decline in quality at Manure. I said the current squad is pretty average. I contrasted Stam and co with the current shower. I said Manure continued to win with an average squad b/c the opposition was crap AND Fergie got favours from refs! This statement means that:
1. Manure was not winning b/c they were a great team.
2. They were not winning b/c Fergie was some sort of magician.
3. Although Manure were pretty average, the opposition was fairly worse.
4. Manure was getting at least 10 points a season from Fergie’s cosy arrangement with refs.

Now, which bit of these don’t you understand?

Nothing demonstrates your limited understanding of the game more than your question about the Arse. The Arse almost becoming champions of Europe is an indication of their quality. Go and look up their line-up at that CL final. That sort of quality means they will provide stiff domestic competition. This was also around the time they went the entire season unbeaten. It was when Henry, Pires, Vieira, Campbell, Lauren, etc played for them. Manure were not dominating the EPL at that time b/c of the quality of the Arse. When the Arse started selling those players and replacing them with poorer quality, they stopped reaching CL finals, stopped winning the EPL, even sold their best player to Manure and made life in the EPL easier for Manure. Simple logic that seems to evade you.

There is no sense in the question whether when the Arse were unbeaten in the league were they unbeaten in Europe. What point are you trying to make? In the domestic league you are bound to play teams of lesser quality than in the CL, where you are playing the top teams from each domestic league. What the heck are you on about?

The same Man City that you claimed raised the bar have not escaped the group stages in the CL for two years running, showing how low the bar was in the first place! If players of the quality of Stam, Cantona and co were still at Manure and the Arse and Liverpool were still at the level they were when they played in CL finals, and Chelski and Borinho were still at their early Roman empire days, Manure would not have won as many EPL titles b/c of the strength of the competition! That’s precisely my point.

Moyes with Fergie’s average squad is struggling b/c even with the crap opposition he doesn’t have Fergie’s control over refs! It’s like Manure have been docked about 10 points b/4 a ball is kicked!

QED!

[tfco]

He was the team's manager anyway.

But who are the "many"?

Some managers are good coaches too.

The “many” are not “WE”.

Obviously, "many" is just your way of ascribing unscientific, untruthful and wild claims to invisible and non-existent people and, at the same time, your getaway route when writing pointlessly like a broken pencil.

he'll come back and mention Mark Halsey or the home/away series v Milan or the 2 finals v Barca. There's always pizzagate, and the horse incident with the former owners

Those are Fergie's 'accomplishments' according to our resident ITK

[phantomjournalist]

I suspect today's result at Shakhtar should cement this guy's fate. Sir Alex made a big mistake recommending this guy

A draw against a pretty good opponent in a tough away fixture?

[cic old boy]

Obviously, "many" is just your way of ascribing unscientific, untruthful and wild claims to invisible and non-existent people and, at the same time, your getaway route when writing pointlessly like a broken pencil.

Real talk from real people.

Lee Sharpe: Had Ferguson been a good coach? Sharpe grins. 'No. The lads used to laugh when he tried to take the warm-up. He wasn't a coach. He was a manager, that was his thing.'
http://www.theguardian.com/football/200 ... t.comment1
This always reminds me of Ikedia and Akwuegbu laughing at Baba Oni's training methods.

Del Bosque labelled Manure's football when Real beat them at OT "tactical anarchy".
http://thefcf.co.uk/2011/11/03/manchest ... 2000/3096/

A real WE speaks: When buying players Fergie would research their character, he wanted winners. His coaching ability is questionable as is his tactical ability but he understood his weaknesses and brought coaching staff to the club to rectify his weaknesses.
http://www.stretford-end.com/2013/05/si ... -football/

[tfco]

you REALLY went digging...all the way back to 2002, and also using a quote from ONE game to further cement SAF's legacy. The full quote below

Del Bosque spoke of United’s “tactical anarchy” that night, and Ferguson ensured such suggestions could never be made again. Put simply, up until that game his teams tried to score one more than the opposition; ever since they have tried to concede one fewer.

I wonder how you rate your team's coaching ability when bayern ra.ped you guys over 180 mins

[anointed]

Obviously, "many" is just your way of ascribing unscientific, untruthful and wild claims to invisible and non-existent people and, at the same time, your getaway route when writing pointlessly like a broken pencil.

Real talk from real people.

Lee Sharpe: Had Ferguson been a good coach? Sharpe grins. 'No. The lads used to laugh when he tried to take the warm-up. He wasn't a coach. He was a manager, that was his thing.'
http://www.theguardian.com/football/200 ... t.comment1
This always reminds me of Ikedia and Akwuegbu laughing at Baba Oni's training methods.

Del Bosque labelled Manure's football when Real beat them at OT "tactical anarchy".
http://thefcf.co.uk/2011/11/03/manchest ... 2000/3096/

A real WE speaks: When buying players Fergie would research their character, he wanted winners. His coaching ability is questionable as is his tactical ability but he understood his weaknesses and brought coaching staff to the club to rectify his weaknesses.
http://www.stretford-end.com/2013/05/si ... -football/

What did Lee Sharpe, Ikedia & Akwuegbu achieve again? Didn't Man Utd beat Real 4-3 at OT? Even in the latest match, Man Utd were in cruise control until the red card to Nani. Try again

[tfco]

Even in the latest match, Man Utd were in cruise control until the red card to Nani. Try again

but not down to tactics or coaching ability mon frere, surely NOT

the clueless one will tell you it was because Real were tired, it was cold at OT, the refs were favoured. EVERYTHING but SAF's tactical nous....this guy is too much, I am actually lmao reading his sh.ite.

[anointed]

Obviously, "many" is just your way of ascribing unscientific, untruthful and wild claims to invisible and non-existent people and, at the same time, your getaway route when writing pointlessly like a broken pencil.

Real talk from real people.

Lee Sharpe: Had Ferguson been a good coach? Sharpe grins. 'No. The lads used to laugh when he tried to take the warm-up. He wasn't a coach. He was a manager, that was his thing.'
http://www.theguardian.com/football/200 ... t.comment1
This always reminds me of Ikedia and Akwuegbu laughing at Baba Oni's training methods.

Del Bosque labelled Manure's football when Real beat them at OT "tactical anarchy".
http://thefcf.co.uk/2011/11/03/manchest ... 2000/3096/

A real WE speaks: When buying players Fergie would research their character, he wanted winners. His coaching ability is questionable as is his tactical ability but he understood his weaknesses and brought coaching staff to the club to rectify his weaknesses.
http://www.stretford-end.com/2013/05/si ... -football/

What did Lee Sharpe, Ikedia & Akwuegbu achieve again? Didn't Man Utd beat Real 4-3 at OT? Even in the latest match, Man Utd were in cruise control until the red card to Nani. Try again

In addition, in your last link, you forgot to quote where the guy said Fergie is the most successful British manager ever, with imprints in Scotland while he also thinks Moyes is the wrong man for Man Utd.

So did you really understand what the man was saying at all?

BTW, may I also say, as I said earlier that Fergie was appointed Man Utd Manger and if he managed the team and never coached them, he was only doing his job but I would take a manager who wins 49 titles over a coach who hurriedly resigns after losing to your man, Borinho.

[anointed]

You aren’t getting your own point.

You gave reason for United dominating EPL in which you refused to give credit to Alex Ferguson. You said it was cos Jose left Chelsea and I said Man Utd won the league b4 Jose left Chelsea. Funny enough, is this not the same Jose you castigate every now and then, caricaturing him with the name Borinho? But because it suits your argument, you turn around to imply that it was cos of him [and his ability, I guess that United lost the EPL.

You also said it was cos of Chelsea's reduced spending so the squad wasn’t strengthened and I replied that Man Utd also reduced spending too in order to manage its debts. Thankfully, you have confirmed that debt angle. You added that it was cos Arsenal sold players that they couldn’t challenge for titles and I said Man Utd also sold players, not least CRonaldo, as you yourself agreed.

And how did Arsenal reaching the final of the UCL affect the EPL? Did Arsenal use the form of the UCL to challenge for the EPL? Arsenal actually had their worst performance in that year over the period they have been qualifying for the UCL by coming 4th. I have never read anywhere where UCL performance determine local league placement. The two are not mutually exclusive. In the year Arsenal went unbeaten in the league, did they also go unbeaten in Europe?

If the two depended on each other, the way you are making it to be, then clubs like Lyon, Celtic etc should be the best in Europe. In fact, weak performance in Europe is more likely to aid performance in the local league but in all the years that Arsenal flustered in Europe they never even mounted any challenge in EPL because the Fergie was the Sherriff who ruled the roost.

You claimed all these things reduced the opposition to Man Utd and I replied all these things also happened to Man Utd but Fergie, whom you do not want to give credit to, managed them well enough, reinventing the team when necessary. If as you agreed that the quality of Man Utd players dropped, by saying “Yeah, Stam, Cantona, RVN were quality and do you think Welbeck, Smalling, Evans, etc are in the same league?” how come you didn’t relate that to the quality of the league that you claimed also dropped because of all those things that happened to Arsenal, Liverpool & Chelsea? When the league had all the qualities you outlined, Man Utd had all its toughest guns on parade and when the quality dropped according to you, you also agreed that the strength of Man Utd decreased. This is congruous enough. But you never mentioned that Man City somewhat raised the bar sha.

So now that Moyes is in charge and has inherited almost all the squad players of Ferguson, let us us see how he will do what Alex Ferguson did, especially, as you think that Man Utd’s under Fergie wasn’t due to Fergie but rather due to what happened to the opposition. Of course, I hope Moyes does.

This is embarrassing. If Borinho won the league twice in the 3 years he was in England, does that mean Manure “dominating” the EPL in that period? We can have a discussion about Borinho if it pleases you. But my criticism of him is implicit in the name I gave him. His teams play boring football. I never claimed it wasn’t effective. I also said there was another factor in Chelski’s success in that period – the depth of the squad (from the millions spent). The trouble with groupies like you is you don’t even understand the league you claim to follow.

I don’t know why you keep embarrassing yourself with who sold who. I acknowledged the decline in quality at Manure. I said the current squad is pretty average. I contrasted Stam and co with the current shower. I said Manure continued to win with an average squad b/c the opposition was crap AND Fergie got favours from refs! This statement means that:
1. Manure was not winning b/c they were a great team.
2. They were not winning b/c Fergie was some sort of magician.
3. Although Manure were pretty average, the opposition was fairly worse.
4. Manure was getting at least 10 points a season from Fergie’s cosy arrangement with refs.

Now, which bit of these don’t you understand?

Nothing demonstrates your limited understanding of the game more than your question about the Arse. The Arse almost becoming champions of Europe is an indication of their quality. Go and look up their line-up at that CL final. That sort of quality means they will provide stiff domestic competition. This was also around the time they went the entire season unbeaten. It was when Henry, Pires, Vieira, Campbell, Lauren, etc played for them. Manure were not dominating the EPL at that time b/c of the quality of the Arse. When the Arse started selling those players and replacing them with poorer quality, they stopped reaching CL finals, stopped winning the EPL, even sold their best player to Manure and made life in the EPL easier for Manure. Simple logic that seems to evade you.

There is no sense in the question whether when the Arse were unbeaten in the league were they unbeaten in Europe. What point are you trying to make? In the domestic league you are bound to play teams of lesser quality than in the CL, where you are playing the top teams from each domestic league. What the heck are you on about?

The same Man City that you claimed raised the bar have not escaped the group stages in the CL for two years running, showing how low the bar was in the first place! If players of the quality of Stam, Cantona and co were still at Manure and the Arse and Liverpool were still at the level they were when they played in CL finals, and Chelski and Borinho were still at their early Roman empire days, Manure would not have won as many EPL titles b/c of the strength of the competition! That’s precisely my point.

Moyes with Fergie’s average squad is struggling b/c even with the crap opposition he doesn’t have Fergie’s control over refs! It’s like Manure have been docked about 10 points b/4 a ball is kicked!

QED!

How is this QED if it is a just mere masturbatory speculation as encapsulated by the "if" that started the sentence? Or do you have any empirical evidence to back it up?

[cic old boy]

you REALLY went digging...all the way back to 2002, and also using a quote from ONE game to further cement SAF's legacy. The full quote below

Del Bosque spoke of United’s “tactical anarchy” that night, and Ferguson ensured such suggestions could never be made again. Put simply, up until that game his teams tried to score one more than the opposition; ever since they have tried to concede one fewer.

I wonder how you rate your team's coaching ability when bayern ra.ped you guys over 180 mins

Learn to follow a thread b/4 posting your daft one-liners.

I said people in the game rated him as a manager but not as a coach. I backed it up with 2 e.gs.

Which team is 'my team'? I am not like you that 'owns' Manure and claims the EPL is 'your' league. But what has that got to do with what people in the game think of Fergie's coaching?

[cic old boy]

What did Lee Sharpe, Ikedia & Akwuegbu achieve again? Didn't Man Utd beat Real 4-3 at OT? Even in the latest match, Man Utd were in cruise control until the red card to Nani. Try again

You guys should learn to not argue like market women.

I said many in the game didn't rate Fergie as a coach. You claimed I made it up. I then gave you two eg.s of people in the game that questioned his coaching. What have achievements got to do with whether they questioned Fergie's coaching or not? What about Del Bosque's critique? You wanna question his achievements too?

The 'tactical anarchy' match finished 3-2 in favour of Real. The 4-3 match came after a 1st leg that Manure lost 3-1 and is irrelevant to whether people in the game questioned Fergie's coaching. The recent match involved Borinho and not Del Bosque who questioned Fergie's coaching. In fact, I and other commentators questioned Fergie's coaching in the last match for being busy working as a cheerleader to the fans as Borinho made the tactical switch to bring in Modric when Manure went a man down.

[cic old boy]

In addition, in your last link, you forgot to quote where the guy said Fergie is the most successful British manager ever, with imprints in Scotland while he also thinks Moyes is the wrong man for Man Utd.

So did you really understand what the man was saying at all?

BTW, may I also say, as I said earlier that Fergie was appointed Man Utd Manger and if he managed the team and never coached them, he was only doing his job but I would take a manager who wins 49 titles over a coach who hurriedly resigns after losing to your man, Borinho.

You have completely lost the plot! Did I not say this earlier: Many in the game rate his management, not his coaching.

So why would I bother with quoting someone who said Fergie was the most successful British manager? Is that matter in dispute?

Which coach resigned after losing to Borinho? What has this got to do with whether people in the game rate Fergie's coaching skills?

I always knew you EPL groupies know nothing about 'your' teams.

[cic old boy]

but not down to tactics or coaching ability mon frere, surely NOT

the clueless one will tell you it was because Real were tired, it was cold at OT, the refs were favoured. EVERYTHING but SAF's tactical nous....this guy is too much, I am actually lmao reading his sh.ite.

Thicko, do you understand the issues?

1. Fergie was not a good coach, but a great manager.

2. B/c he was great with managing, he always tried to recruit good coaches to compensate for his shortcomings as a coach. That's good management. There are further e.g.s above such as recruitment of the players with the right temperament.

3. Tactically outwitting Borinho at OT does not negate any of these claims b/c I never claimed Borinho was a great coach and the tactical nous to stop Real could have been plotted by Rene Meulensteen and not Fergie the 'tactical anarchist'.

[anointed]

What did Lee Sharpe, Ikedia & Akwuegbu achieve again? Didn't Man Utd beat Real 4-3 at OT? Even in the latest match, Man Utd were in cruise control until the red card to Nani. Try again

You guys should learn to not argue like market women.

I said many in the game didn't rate Fergie as a coach. You claimed I made it up. I then gave you two eg.s of people in the game that questioned his coaching. What have achievements got to do with whether they questioned Fergie's coaching or not? What about Del Bosque's critique? You wanna question his achievements too?

The 'tactical anarchy' match finished 3-2 in favour of Real. The 4-3 match came after a 1st leg that Manure lost 3-1 and is irrelevant to whether people in the game questioned Fergie's coaching. The recent match involved Borinho and not Del Bosque who questioned Fergie's coaching. In fact, I and other commentators questioned Fergie's coaching in the last match for being busy working as a cheerleader to the fans as Borinho made the tactical switch to bring in Modric when Manure went a man down.

So if, for instance, you quoted Paj, how does that improve your argument? Lee Sharpe & co don't make any change to your argument.