Moyes snubbed Ferguson's advice

[akamoke]

By the reactions on CE, one would think that Manure as been relegated. especially from the Assanal fans who have been rebuilding from the past 8 years.

Go and sit down and let Arsenal fans be. This is a Moyes thread...

You mean the same Arsenal fans that always take every opportunity to bash Man U and their fans? what!!! you can dish but can't take?..sounds like the actions of a kitty cat to me

[cic old boy]

Moi-Moyes should have kept the backroom staff. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it. When Liverpool were successful, the “boot-room” staff stayed the same even when the management changed. That said, Moi-Moyes talks to Fergie after each game.

Several factors are at play at Manure. I think Moi-Moyes has been promoted beyond his capabilities. The team was very average but kept winning the EPL b/c the competition were crap and Fergie’s control over refs gave them at least 10 points each season. While Moi-Moyes did relatively well with meagre resources at Everton by making them hard to beat, that approach will not work at Manure that are expected to dominate the opposition in the EPL.

Moi-Moyes lack of medals will also count against him when the going gets tough. He is coaching players that have won a lot and he hasn’t won a damn thing. He can’t put his medals on the table and claim they should listen to him if they want success. With every bad result, they will be questioning his instructions, tactics, decisions, etc. There is a rumour that RVP is not very impressed with Moi-Moyes’ training. His regular conversations with Fergie would also contribute to undermining Moi-Moyes’ authority.

I don’t think wanting a Brit was why Moi-Moyes was appointed. Apparently, Fergie’s 1st choice as successor was Pep. Moi-Moyes was 2nd choice.

Manure could be in for the sort of slump that followed the retirement of Matt Busby.

[elerineye]

By the reactions on CE, one would think that Manure as been relegated. especially from the Assanal fans who have been rebuilding from the past 8 years.

Go and sit down and let Arsenal fans be. This is a Moyes thread...

The obesession some non-Arsenal fans have with everything Arsenal is bizarre.

it's called bad bellus...

[Coach]

In times of tribal war, victors would slaughter if not enslave the men and ravage their women. Why the former?...What is a vestige besides a reminder of the past? ... And the relevance to discourse is? Everything. How does Moyes become the manager of Man United if he keeps vestigial elements of a former life, constant reminders of what was, how it was done and how so and so would react...Moyes had to get rid, that he left them able-bodied and fully conversational, is proving to be to his detriment. Would the story be any different if Moyes had closed Steele's eye?

[omey2k4]

Great thread to revisit later....

[chendosplastic]

...many new coaches do bring their own staff, so what's the beef here?

Nnaa, na waa o. If anything goes wrong, then any of the things that didn't happen can be be the reason why.

[SylverEagles]

Several factors are at play at Manure. I think Moi-Moyes has been promoted beyond his capabilities. The team was very average but kept winning the EPL b/c the competition were crap and Fergie’s control over refs gave them at least 10 points each season.

Manure could be in for the sort of slump that followed the retirement of Matt Busby.

I believe that the highlighted is the key here. As I was telling a Manure fan recently that Ferguson really worked magic with average squads for the last 3 years due to his tactical nous and control over the refs. The Manure midfield is pretty average for a top 4 team. Their main strengths were in attack and defense but even the defense has been getting weaker year by year as Ferdinand gets older.
It will take a while before Moyes fashions out his own team but I'm not sure he will survive till then.

[wiseone]

Getting rid of the most successful backroom coaching staff in history that won 4 EPLs in 5 years and got Man Utd to 3 champions league finals in 4 years, then replacing them with 3 guys that have never won a trophy between them, and England's former 1990s reserve GK, was not an inspired decision. Why would a squad of serial championship and Champions League winners take advice from a coaching crew whose greatest success is getting to 6th place?

[wiseone]

Posts like this "Fergie’s control over refs" part are utterly mind boggling and border on delusion.

In the 20 years of the EPL's existence Man Utd have finished first or second 19 times in the past 20 seasons. Was the competition crap every season for 20 straight years? What about the Barcelona, Juventus, AC Milan, Inter Milan, Bayern Munich, Roma, and Arsenal teams they beat en route to multiple Champions League finals?

Do you think that maybe, just MAYBE - Man Utd's success over the past 20 years has something to do with the fact that for 25+ years, they were managed by the most obsessively dedicated, greatest football manager in the modern game. Or that during their period of success, their squad included three of the greatest central midfielders of the modern era, the two best wingers the world has seen for 40 years, one of the most ruthless cold eyed goalscorers in modern football, the most consistent full back in EPL history, and the greatest GK the world has seen for 20 years?

Moi-Moyes should have kept the backroom staff. If it ain’t broke don’t fix it. When Liverpool were successful, the “boot-room” staff stayed the same even when the management changed. That said, Moi-Moyes talks to Fergie after each game.

Several factors are at play at Manure. I think Moi-Moyes has been promoted beyond his capabilities. The team was very average but kept winning the EPL b/c the competition were crap and Fergie’s control over refs gave them at least 10 points each season. While Moi-Moyes did relatively well with meagre resources at Everton by making them hard to beat, that approach will not work at Manure that are expected to dominate the opposition in the EPL.

Moi-Moyes lack of medals will also count against him when the going gets tough. He is coaching players that have won a lot and he hasn’t won a damn thing. He can’t put his medals on the table and claim they should listen to him if they want success. With every bad result, they will be questioning his instructions, tactics, decisions, etc. There is a rumour that RVP is not very impressed with Moi-Moyes’ training. His regular conversations with Fergie would also contribute to undermining Moi-Moyes’ authority.

[cic old boy]

Posts like this "Fergie’s control over refs" part are utterly mind boggling and border on delusion.

In the 20 years of the EPL's existence Man Utd have finished first or second 19 times in the past 20 seasons. Was the competition crap every season for 20 straight years? What about the Barcelona, Juventus, AC Milan, Inter Milan, Bayern Munich, Roma, and Arsenal teams they beat en route to multiple Champions League finals?

Do you think that maybe, just MAYBE - Man Utd's success over the past 20 years has something to do with the fact that for 25+ years, they were managed by the most obsessively dedicated, greatest football manager in the modern game. Or that during their period of success, their squad included three of the greatest central midfielders of the modern era, the two best wingers the world has seen for 40 years, one of the most ruthless cold eyed goalscorers in modern football, the most consistent full back in EPL history, and the greatest GK the world has seen for 20 years?

The notion that Fergie exerts control over refs is supported by the revelation in ref Mark Halsey’s book that he communicated with Fergie outside matches and requested favours of him.

The competition being crap is in relation to the past 6 or 7 years, when the Arse became a selling club, Borinho left and Chelski restrained their spending, etc. The facts support the crappiness of the competition – Man City champs and 2nd in the EPL knocked out at CL group stages 2 years running, no EPL team in last 8 last season, etc.

The Barca team beaten by Manure in 2008 was crap – that’s why Rijkaard was fired. That team ended up finishing 3rd behind Villareal in La Liga. The Roma team was a joke that chopped 7 goals against Manure. The Inter team under Mancini was a joke in Europe like Man City. When Milan were contenders, they usually knocked out Manure. I remember one home and away elimination, there was Kaka running riot at OT and the 3-0 flogging at the San Siro, etc. The two finals that Manure faced Barca were one-sided.

The trouble with people like you is that Manure’s dominance in England has given you an exaggerated impression of the team. I remember Fergie saying when they were beaten 3-1 at Wembley by Barca that their aim next season was to match and surpass Barca. The next season they were knocked out in the group stages by Basel. The reality is that Manure is stuffed with way too many average players for a club with ambitions of global dominance – Cleverley, Anderson, Carrick, Welbeck, Evans, etc would not stand out at West Ham. Since Fake Ron left they have never had any genuine world star. Rooney and RVP may look good against Southampton and Sunderland, but I can’t remember them setting the world alight in the CL.

All those nameless people you called the “greatest” and the “best” at Manure were local champions, destroying Wigan, Bolton, etc. It’s the same crap they used to say about George Best, until I discovered that his best games were against the likes of Northampton. I hope for your sanity you didn’t include Bryan Robson in your “greatest central midfielders of the modern era”. And who made Schmeichel the “greatest GK the world has seen for 20 years”? You know the “world” watches football beyond the EPL and they have seen Buffon, Casillas, etc?

[tfco]

The competition being crap is in relation to the past 6 or 7 years, when the Arse became a selling club, Borinho left and Chelski restrained their spending, etc. The facts support the crappiness of the competition – Man City champs and 2nd in the EPL knocked out at CL group stages 2 years running, no EPL team in last 8 last season, etc.

you are all over the map with your opaks.

the EPL competition has been crap for the past 6-7 years. The supporting facts are based on UCL results for the past TWO years.

oh you put in 'etc etc'...please expand..

[cic old boy]

Fergie and refs, more evidence.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/22499361

Sir Alex Ferguson: Man Utd boss intimidated referees - Redknapp
Comments (575)

QPR manager Harry Redknapp believes officials have been "afraid to upset" Sir Alex Ferguson, as he praised the contribution of the retiring Manchester United boss.

Everton boss David Moyes, 50, will take over on 1 July from the Scot, 71, who announced his retirement on Wednesday.

"A lot of officials would be in awe of him and afraid to upset him," Redknapp told Radio 5 live's Sportsweek.

"There was such an aura about him because he is a winner."

Redknapp added: "I never had any doubts about that. If there was a bit of time to be added they would make sure they got it right because they did not want to upset him.

"Especially young referees, and even one or two of the older ones, were a little bit afraid to upset him."

In January 2009, then-Liverpool manager, Rafael Benitez, made similar complaints. He said: "We know what happens every time we go to Old Trafford and the United staff.

"They are always going man to man with the referees, especially at half-time when they walk close to the referees and they are talking and talking."

Ferguson will say his farewell to Old Trafford in Sunday's Premier League match against Swansea City, along with midfielder Paul Scholes who announced his retirement on Saturday.

The former Aberdeen manager will step down at the end of the season, after winning 38 trophies during his 26 years in charge.

"I think we all knew it would come suddenly. I thought he would go on for a couple of years yet," said Redknapp, whose QPR side have been relegated to the Championship.

"He has won the Premier League and maybe feels it is a good time to go out and enjoy his life. Maybe he wants a bit more time to do stuff away from football.

"He has put great teams together. He has known the right time to let people go and never been afraid to make the big decisions. Whether it was Roy Keane, David Beckham or Jaap Stam, all the great players have come and gone. He knows the game inside out."

Moyes, who was recommended to the United board by Ferguson, has not won a major trophy in his 11-year stay at Everton but Redknapp believes he is the right choice of successor.

He said: "It is great for British coaches that Manchester United have picked someone who has come up through the lower divisions. It is good they have given the opportunity to David Moyes, I think he will be fantastic.

"It is a tough job. Moyes built a great team at Everton and I'm sure he will do a great job at Manchester United."

The truth about "Fergie time"
"When Man Utd were losing, they had an average of four minutes and 37 seconds added time, compared with three minutes and 18 seconds when they were winning"

[tfco]

The Barca team beaten by Manure in 2008 was crap – that’s why Rijkaard was fired. That team ended up finishing 3rd behind Villareal in La Liga. The Roma team was a joke that chopped 7 goals against Manure. The Inter team under Mancini was a joke in Europe like Man City. When Milan were contenders, they usually knocked out Manure. I remember one home and away elimination, there was Kaka running riot at OT and the 3-0 flogging at the San Siro, etc. The two finals that Manure faced Barca were one-sided.

gotta love how you give excuses for EVERY team beaten by United. Getting to 2 UCL finals in that your 6-7 year span is also down to Euro refs, correct. Nothing to do with SAF at all.

[cic old boy]

you are all over the map with your opaks.

the EPL competition has been crap for the past 6-7 years. The supporting facts are based on UCL results for the past TWO years.

oh you put in 'etc etc'...please expand..

Read and read in context. I gave reasons why they are crap – Borinho leaving + reduced Chelski spending, the Arse now a selling club, etc. Remember the “Invincibles”? The Arse once upon a time played in a CL final and nearly won it. Liverpool were CL winners/finalists. Where are they now? Can’t even make the Europa.

[Coach]

@Dennis Wise, does man entertain his latest bit of slap and tickle with a rendition of the rhythmic gyrations of Mr Ex-Boyfriend? Does he keep to the tried and tested itinerary of digital stimulation, followed by bog standard missionary position, then a legs locked variant for a score of propulsive thrusts. Then follows a straddling and a one hip flexed finale of doggy, all fours and then flat. No...such vestige would serve as a reminder of what was rather than what is. Instead, he loops her arms around his neck, passes his hands underneath her thighs, locking fingers behind the small of her back, picks her clean off the mattress, suspends her mid-air...a bloody good rodgering! Ex-boy...who? 'Dark skin Jermaine, see what I mean'.

And the relevance, either man moves on or remains stuck in the past. Moyes needs to do it his way. What will the old staff do besides echo Fergie?

[Tunisian Gooner]

Not a fan of Moyes but biggest problem at Man Utd is greedy Leprechauns aka the Glazers.

Taking over for SAF has to be one of the most difficult tasks in the history of management in sports. With SAF going out on top there will be little patience from supporters who basically view winning the PL as a par the course. Problem is whilst SAF was able to overcome the Glazers greed doubt a newbie at an elite club such as Moyes can follow suit. Man Utd supporters have stated for at least 3 years the club has dish out some proper quid on top quality CB, CAM and LB for starters. Glazers though have been more than content to treat Man Utd as a club who must be cautious with any big investments rather than a club that has immense financial resources.

[anointed]

you are all over the map with your opaks.

the EPL competition has been crap for the past 6-7 years. The supporting facts are based on UCL results for the past TWO years.

oh you put in 'etc etc'...please expand..

Read and read in context. I gave reasons why they are crap – Borinho leaving + reduced Chelski spending, the Arse now a selling club, etc. Remember the “Invincibles”? The Arse once upon a time played in a CL final and nearly won it. Liverpool were CL winners/finalists. Where are they now? Can’t even make the Europa.

So Man Utd did not have reduced spending? Players did not leave Man Utd? Or Man Utd did not shine in the league when EPL produced 3 of 4 UCL semi finals? Before Jose left, didnt Man Utd win the EPL? What Jose leaving got to do with Man Utd's performance? In fact, when Carlos Queiroz left United, folks here were saying he was the brains behind Man Utd success but after he left, didnt United still dominate? EVen when the major players like Beckham, STam, Cantona, Van Nistelrooy, Keane etc Man Utd just changed gear and continued to dominate but the only common factor in all these was Sir Alex Ferguson. Interestingly enough, his success as a manager is not limited only to Man Utd. This was the man who broke the stranglehold of the Old Farm in Scotland and even won in Europe with lowly Aberdeen and since he left, what have Aberdeen achieved? Now that he has left Utd, we can see that same average team that Fergie used to win titles is now getting less than average results. Why? May be it's too early to judge Moyes.

Whatever happened to the other clubs also happened to Man Utd.

[cic old boy]

gotta love how you give excuses for EVERY team beaten by United. Getting to 2 UCL finals in that your 6-7 year span is also down to Euro refs, correct. Nothing to do with SAF at all.

Fergie, himself said that 2 CL wins in all his time at Manure was not good enough. Facts are not “excuses”. The fact is that the season Manure beat Barca in the semis was the same season that Rijkaard was said to have lost control of the dressing room and his last season. The fact is that almost that same team met Manure in the final the next season and it was men against boys.

[cic old boy]

So Man Utd did not have reduced spending? Players did not leave Man Utd? Or Man Utd did not shine in the league when EPL produced 3 of 4 UCL semi finals? Before Jose left, didnt Man Utd win the EPL? What Jose leaving got to do with Man Utd's performance? In fact, when Carlos Queiroz left United, folks here were saying he was the brains behind Man Utd success but after he left, didnt United still dominate? EVen when the major players like Beckham, STam, Cantona, Van Nistelrooy, Keane etc Man Utd just changed gear and continued to dominate but the only common factor in all these was Sir Alex Ferguson. Interestingly enough, his success as a manager is not limited only to Man Utd. This was the man who broke the stranglehold of the Old Farm in Scotland and even won in Europe with lowly Aberdeen and since he left, what have Aberdeen achieved? Now that he has left Utd, we can see that same average team that Fergie used to win titles is now getting less than average results. Why? May be it's too early to judge Moyes.

Whatever happened to the other clubs also happened to Man Utd.

I hate it when people dive into posts without following the thread. I know more about Manure than you WE crew! I know how the Glazer’s borrowings have affected Manure spending. I know that they sold Fake Ron and replaced him with Antonio Valencia! I said in my very first post here that Manure’s quality had dropped for several years and that they have been winning the EPL b/c of the poor quality of the opposition! So why this nonsense about reduced spending when I know that was one of the reasons for Manure’s drop in quality?

Well, when Borinho was around, he won the EPL in 2 of his 3 seasons (practically down to the strength of his squad). So his leaving and Chelsea not spending like b/4 weaken the opposition! When the Arse went an entire season without defeat and were CL finalists, that also meant Manure didn’t have their easy run in the EPL, and the Arse selling their best players opens the way for Manure to accumulate EPL titles.

Yeah, Stam, Cantona, RVN were quality and do you think Welbeck, Smalling, Evans, etc are in the same league? You are exactly making my point. The reason Manure continued to win with an average mob is down to the crappiness of the rest and refs giving them about 10 points a season.

[cic old boy]

Not a fan of Moyes but biggest problem at Man Utd is greedy Leprechauns aka the Glazers.

Taking over for SAF has to be one of the most difficult tasks in the history of management in sports. With SAF going out on top there will be little patience from supporters who basically view winning the PL as a par the course. Problem is whilst SAF was able to overcome the Glazers greed doubt a newbie at an elite club such as Moyes can follow suit. Man Utd supporters have stated for at least 3 years the club has dish out some proper quid on top quality CB, CAM and LB for starters. Glazers though have been more than content to treat Man Utd as a club who must be cautious with any big investments rather than a club that has immense financial resources.

By the time the Glazers pay out £50m a year in interest on the debt they loaded on to the club, and a few million to themselves as “commission”, there isn’t much to splash out on top tier players.

[YUJAM]

I suspect today's result at Shakhtar should cement this guy's fate. Sir Alex made a big mistake recommending this guy

[Coach]

^on hand to hold a memorial service at 9.45pm GMT. Moyes is on the ropes and needs to come out swinging like Michael Katsidis. A defeat here and he'll struggle to win support from Mancunia.

[anointed]

So Man Utd did not have reduced spending? Players did not leave Man Utd? Or Man Utd did not shine in the league when EPL produced 3 of 4 UCL semi finals? Before Jose left, didnt Man Utd win the EPL? What Jose leaving got to do with Man Utd's performance? In fact, when Carlos Queiroz left United, folks here were saying he was the brains behind Man Utd success but after he left, didnt United still dominate? EVen when the major players like Beckham, STam, Cantona, Van Nistelrooy, Keane etc Man Utd just changed gear and continued to dominate but the only common factor in all these was Sir Alex Ferguson. Interestingly enough, his success as a manager is not limited only to Man Utd. This was the man who broke the stranglehold of the Old Farm in Scotland and even won in Europe with lowly Aberdeen and since he left, what have Aberdeen achieved? Now that he has left Utd, we can see that same average team that Fergie used to win titles is now getting less than average results. Why? May be it's too early to judge Moyes.

Whatever happened to the other clubs also happened to Man Utd.

I hate it when people dive into posts without following the thread. I know more about Manure than you WE crew! I know how the Glazer’s borrowings have affected Manure spending. I know that they sold Fake Ron and replaced him with Antonio Valencia! I said in my very first post here that Manure’s quality had dropped for several years and that they have been winning the EPL b/c of the poor quality of the opposition! So why this nonsense about reduced spending when I know that was one of the reasons for Manure’s drop in quality?

Well, when Borinho was around, he won the EPL in 2 of his 3 seasons (practically down to the strength of his squad). So his leaving and Chelsea not spending like b/4 weaken the opposition! When the Arse went an entire season without defeat and were CL finalists, that also meant Manure didn’t have their easy run in the EPL, and the Arse selling their best players opens the way for Manure to accumulate EPL titles.

Yeah, Stam, Cantona, RVN were quality and do you think Welbeck, Smalling, Evans, etc are in the same league? You are exactly making my point. The reason Manure continued to win with an average mob is down to the crappiness of the rest and refs giving them about 10 points a season.

You aren’t getting your own point.

You gave reason for United dominating EPL in which you refused to give credit to Alex Ferguson. You said it was cos Jose left Chelsea and I said Man Utd won the league b4 Jose left Chelsea. Funny enough, is this not the same Jose you castigate every now and then, caricaturing him with the name Borinho? But because it suits your argument, you turn around to imply that it was cos of him [and his ability, I guess that United lost the EPL.

You also said it was cos of Chelsea's reduced spending so the squad wasn’t strengthened and I replied that Man Utd also reduced spending too in order to manage its debts. Thankfully, you have confirmed that debt angle. You added that it was cos Arsenal sold players that they couldn’t challenge for titles and I said Man Utd also sold players, not least CRonaldo, as you yourself agreed.

And how did Arsenal reaching the final of the UCL affect the EPL? Did Arsenal use the form of the UCL to challenge for the EPL? Arsenal actually had their worst performance in that year over the period they have been qualifying for the UCL by coming 4th. I have never read anywhere where UCL performance determine local league placement. The two are not mutually exclusive. In the year Arsenal went unbeaten in the league, did they also go unbeaten in Europe?

If the two depended on each other, the way you are making it to be, then clubs like Lyon, Celtic etc should be the best in Europe. In fact, weak performance in Europe is more likely to aid performance in the local league but in all the years that Arsenal flustered in Europe they never even mounted any challenge in EPL because the Fergie was the Sherriff who ruled the roost.

You claimed all these things reduced the opposition to Man Utd and I replied all these things also happened to Man Utd but Fergie, whom you do not want to give credit to, managed them well enough, reinventing the team when necessary. If as you agreed that the quality of Man Utd players dropped, by saying “Yeah, Stam, Cantona, RVN were quality and do you think Welbeck, Smalling, Evans, etc are in the same league?” how come you didn’t relate that to the quality of the league that you claimed also dropped because of all those things that happened to Arsenal, Liverpool & Chelsea? When the league had all the qualities you outlined, Man Utd had all its toughest guns on parade and when the quality dropped according to you, you also agreed that the strength of Man Utd decreased. This is congruous enough. But you never mentioned that Man City somewhat raised the bar sha.

So now that Moyes is in charge and has inherited almost all the squad players of Ferguson, let us us see how he will do what Alex Ferguson did, especially, as you think that Man Utd’s under Fergie wasn’t due to Fergie but rather due to what happened to the opposition. Of course, I hope Moyes does.