Moyes snubbed Ferguson's advice

[anointed]

Where the Manure ignoarant groupies at??? Who you gonna listen to? CIC or Peter Schmeichel??

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b05e8d18-273c ... z2gqFN4aXp


Why Ferguson remains at the top of his game

By Simon Kuper


The Manchester United manager adds exceptional value to his teams, says Simon Kuper


When Sir Richard Greenbury ran Marks and Spencer, he used to take Sir Alex Ferguson out for lunch and pump him for management tips. That was smart.

Manchester United’s manager celebrates his 70th birthday on December 31 as the most trophy-laden individual in football’s history. Sir Alex wins prizes not merely because United can afford excellent players. Stefan Szymanski, economics professor at the University of Michigan, has compiled a “Soccernomics index” of overachieving managers in England: the men who have reached the highest league positions relative to their clubs’ wage budgets since 1974. Sir Alex ranks second, after Liverpool’s Bob Paisley.


In other words the Scot adds exceptional value to his teams. Better, he seems capable of doing so unto eternity.

This is not because he has a brilliant understanding of football. “Ferguson is not a genius,” writes his biographer Patrick Barclay. Brian Clough was a better judge of players; José Mourinho is a better tactician. As Peter Schmeichel, United’s former goalkeeper, said: “There are thousands of better coaches. But management? The handling of men? There’s nobody better."

Here are some of Sir Alex’s management secrets:

● Identify yourself with your company’s brand. Sir Alex made himself unsackable at United partly by converting himself from mere employee into the embodiment of the club’s values. Doing that took study. After arriving at Old Trafford in 1986 he interviewed staff about United’s history, and listened to fans. He gradually absorbed three tenets of the club’s brand: United teams must attack, the world is against United and United is more a cause than a football club. When he said “I am like the keeper of the temple”, he meant that the cause had become almost unthinkable without him.

● Hone your strongest character trait into a weapon. In Sir Alex’s case it is his temper. Bobby McCulley, who played for the first club Sir Alex managed, East Stirlingshire, said: “I’ve never been afraid of anyone before but Ferguson was a frightening *kindperson* from the start.” Sir Alex’s temper is genuine, but he has learnt how to use it.

His famed “hairdryer” treatment – when he berates someone from so close that his breath blows his victim’s hair – is finely honed. John McEnroe’s autobiography taught Sir Alex when to switch off his rage. The tennis player would use his temper early in a tournament, to intimidate opponents and umpires, but he would stop before the final, when he needed calm.

● Cultivate every interest group inside your company. Early in his career, at St Mirren, Sir Alex got sacked (for the only time in his career) after fighting with his chairman. He had not grasped that the man’s consent was central to his project. “Even if you hate your chairman, you have to find a way of getting on with it,” he concluded. Ever since he has worked to keep his club’s board, players, fans and sponsors onside. One leader of United’s fan base said Sir Alex would sometimes chat to him for hours on the phone, keen to know what supporters thought. Sir Alex worries much less about outsiders, such as journalists or referees.

● Gather information everywhere. Alastair Campbell, Tony Blair’s former aide and a friend of Sir Alex, recalls attending a lunch in Sir Alex’s honour at the League Managers Association. “You could feel his gravitational pull on other managers in the room,” Mr Campbell said. “There were dozens of managers there, past and present. He knows them all. He calls them all the time. He hoovers up information all the time.” Years after players have left United, they still get calls from Sir Alex. He cultivates his contacts unto death: Mr Barclay writes that perhaps nobody in football attends more funerals.

● Seek total control, but recognise when you cannot have it. Sir Alex once listed for Mr Campbell the three main qualities required for leadership: “Control. Managing change. And observation.” As any dictator knows, fear plus information equals control. Sir Alex knows everything about his players, even their toilet habits. (If someone goes to the toilet more than usual, he investigates.) Dissidents generally get exiled. However, after United’s best player, Wayne Rooney, flirted with joining Manchester City last year, Sir Alex forgave him. He knew Rooney was irreplaceable.

● Do not let other people cause you stress. Days before the 1997 UK election, Mr Campbell felt stressed. People already sensed that Mr Blair would win, and so they stopped bothering the prime minister-in-waiting with practical problems, and began bothering Mr Campbell instead. On the phone Mr Campbell confided to Sir Alex: “I’m feeling the pressure.” Sir Alex replied: “You know what I do in those circumstances? You’ve got to literally imagine you are putting blinkers on. People want to get into your space. Only you decide who gets into your space.” He advised Mr Campbell to tell petitioners: “I think you can resolve this yourself.”

● Remember that crises blow over. Sir Alex has been through so many: Eric Cantona’s karate kicking of a spectator, the boot he kicked at David Beckham in 2003 etc. Sir Alex never adjusts his strategy because he knows crises pass.

●Always be unsatisfied. “The sweetest moment for me,” he often tells interviewers, “is the last minute of a victory. After that it drains away quickly. The memory’s gone in half an hour. It’s like a drug, really. I need to re-enact it again and again to get that last-minute feeling, when you’re shouting at the referee, ‘Blow that bloody whistle’.” Sir Alex knows that satisfaction is fatal. Every trophy he wins is just a notch towards a target he never wants to meet.

Google has been slow these past couple of days.

[cic old boy]

Many in the game rate his management, not his coaching.

Obviously, "many" is just your way of ascribing unscientific, untruthful and wild claims to invisible and non-existent people and, at the same time, your getaway route when writing pointlessly like a broken pencil.

Is there still anyone out there who still thinks that there are not many in the game who don't rate the coaching abilities of the 'tactical anarchist'.

[anointed]

At least, you understand it is gibberish.

Lemme show you another gibberish

He won a total of eight caps for England, but his later career failed to live up to its potential after leaving Manchester United in his mid-twenties

How come when Sharpe, your main witness, had his best performances under a manager but when he left to play for coaches, he never lived up to his potentials. Without Fergie, who brought him to Man Utd, who would have known him?

Since you are very proficient at googling stuff, do you have a link for Sharpe talking about the performances of the correct coaches he played under at Leeds United, Bradford City, Portsmouth, Exeter City, Grindavik and Garforth Town plus England after he left manager Fergie?

More gibberish. This is not a referendum on Sharpe or any other coach. I said many in the game knew Fergie was not a good coach, but a very good manager. Most real Manure fans know this and gladly acknowledge it. It is know-nothing groupies that dispute it. You claimed I used the term 'many' b/c no such person exists. So I gave you two e.gs. There are more.

You probably never heard of Sharpe until I mentioned him. Many of you groupies know nothing about the history of 'your' club. This is why you mentioned the 4-3 match against Real in relation to the 'tactical anarchy' game. You probably started being a Manure groupie around 2003.

I never heard of Sharpe ...rather laughable. Been following Utd since early 80s, even before the arrival of Ferguson.

So how many people are in the game and how many people in the game have you cited so far?

[anointed]

So are u saying Schmeichel's assessment means he never rated his coaching? Schmeichel said his management, what he was appointed to do, was better than his coaching. He said there were better coaches. No one said Ferguson was the best coach anywhere. To say that many in the game didn't rate his coaching is just a neither-here-nor-there statement especially that you have represented many by 4 people despite stressing google. It's just our getaway ploy.

As far as I know, Fergie is the most successful coach in British football history, taking charge of 1500 matches for Man Utd. His titles also speak volumes. It takes only CIC to say that the coaching of such a man like that is not rated by just twisting words.

BTW, do you realize that one of your initial outlandish insinuations on the control of referees has been rubbished by the Scmeichel link you post?

[cic old boy]

I never heard of Sharpe ...rather laughable. Been following Utd since early 80s, even before the arrival of Ferguson.

So how many people are in the game and how many people in the game have you cited so far?

How many is "many"?

[cic old boy]

So are u saying Schmeichel's assessment means he never rated his coaching? Schmeichel said his management, what he was appointed to do, was better than his coaching. He said there were better coaches. No one said Ferguson was the best coach anywhere. To say that many in the game didn't rate his coaching is just a neither-here-nor-there statement especially that you have represented many by 4 people despite stressing google. It's just our getaway ploy.

As far as I know, Fergie is the most successful coach in British football history, taking charge of 1500 matches for Man Utd. His titles also speak volumes. It takes only CIC to say that the coaching of such a man like that is not rated by just twisting words.

BTW, do you realize that one of your initial outlandish insinuations on the control of referees has been rubbished by the Scmeichel link you post?

You are getting desperate.

So you think Schmeichel rated the coaching of a man he said 'thousands' not tens, not hundreds, were better than him? This puts him below Baba Oni in the coaching ladder.

I not really interested in stuff 'as far as you know' b/c what you know doesn't go very far!

Do you want me to teach you more about Fergie's relationships with refs like I taught you about his 'anarchic' coaching? Do you want to know what many in the game say about the man and refs?

[anointed]

So are u saying Schmeichel's assessment means he never rated his coaching? Schmeichel said his management, what he was appointed to do, was better than his coaching. He said there were better coaches. No one said Ferguson was the best coach anywhere. To say that many in the game didn't rate his coaching is just a neither-here-nor-there statement especially that you have represented many by 4 people despite stressing google. It's just our getaway ploy.

As far as I know, Fergie is the most successful coach in British football history, taking charge of 1500 matches for Man Utd. His titles also speak volumes. It takes only CIC to say that the coaching of such a man like that is not rated by just twisting words.

BTW, do you realize that one of your initial outlandish insinuations on the control of referees has been rubbished by the Scmeichel link you post?

You are getting desperate.

So you think Schmeichel rated the coaching of a man he said 'thousands' not tens, not hundreds, were better than him? This puts him below Baba Oni in the coaching ladder.

I not really interested in stuff 'as far as you know' b/c what you know doesn't go very far!

Do you want me to teach you more about Fergie's relationships with refs like I taught you about his 'anarchic' coaching? Do you want to know what many in the game say about the man and refs?

You are the one getting desperate.

Your argument is really getting tired and labored. How many coached does Schmeichel know? All the coaches in Europe premier leagues, are they up to 1000 let alone thousands? Add even all the national coaches in the world to the list. It's shocking that you have taken 'thousands' literally. It's also disappointing.

May be that's why you are hiding under 'many' and un-funny pictures and anecdotes. You even went as low as saying I didn't know Lee Sharpe. In my secondary in the 80s, I kept a daily diaries of all sports event from listening to mainly BBC. That you even had to resort to bringing statements from Lee Sharpe who left Man Utd in 1996 and Schmeichel who left in 1999 shows how thin and worn out your argument is, as rightly noted by tfco. Not even a player from this century. Even the Real match you mentioned was in 2000.

If one coach calls another a "tactical anarchist" after a single game, to you it suddenly means the coaching is not rated, not even to mention that coaches hardly even rate each other. This is from the link you quoted:

Brian Clough was a better judge of players; José Mourinho is a better tactician. As Peter Schmeichel, United’s former goalkeeper, said: “There are thousands of better coaches. But management? The handling of men? There’s nobody better."

Aren't you and your link trying to say that a judge of player, a tactician, a coach and a manager are all different things? So why are equating "tactical anarchist" to mean not rated as a coach?

I think you need to commit yourself to defining what 'many' means and to state whether Fergie was a good or bad coach. Not this crafty prosaic stuff you have been bandying all over the thread, which has no head or tail. As I stated earlier, it worded so that dance out of the corner.

[Coach]

So, what is the matter of debate here? Is the consensus that Moyes should've retained Fergie's backroom staff to snigger at him as he drops points? How many managers do just that? For want of familiarity in uncharted seas, many an admiral would call upon a trusted navy. On ascension to the upper echelons of the establishment, does the married man renege on his roots, or continue to concubine the secretary from the ground floor? Bret Hart aside of course. There are some mandatory consistencies in this ever changing, kaleidoscope called life.

[cic old boy]

You are the one getting desperate.

Your argument is really getting tired and labored. How many coached does Schmeichel know? All the coaches in Europe premier leagues, are they up to 1000 let alone thousands? Add even all the national coaches in the world to the list. It's shocking that you have taken 'thousands' literally. It's also disappointing.

May be that's why you are hiding under 'many' and un-funny pictures and anecdotes. You even went as low as saying I didn't know Lee Sharpe. In my secondary in the 80s, I kept a daily diaries of all sports event from listening to mainly BBC. That you even had to resort to bringing statements from Lee Sharpe who left Man Utd in 1996 and Schmeichel who left in 1999 shows how thin and worn out your argument is, as rightly noted by tfco. Not even a player from this century. Even the Real match you mentioned was in 2000.

If one coach calls another a "tactical anarchist" after a single game, to you it suddenly means the coaching is not rated, not even to mention that coaches hardly even rate each other. This is from the link you quoted:

Brian Clough was a better judge of players; José Mourinho is a better tactician. As Peter Schmeichel, United’s former goalkeeper, said: “There are thousands of better coaches. But management? The handling of men? There’s nobody better."

Aren't you and your link trying to say that a judge of player, a tactician, a coach and a manager are all different things? So why are equating "tactical anarchist" to mean not rated as a coach?

I think you need to commit yourself to defining what 'many' means and to state whether Fergie was a good or bad coach. Not this crafty prosaic stuff you have been bandying all over the thread, which has no head or tail. As I stated earlier, it worded so that dance out of the corner.

EPL groupies always show they don't know about football. The 'thousands' of coaches can be taken literally and figuratively. England has 1,161 coaches with the Uefa A licence, Spain has 12,720, Germany has 5,500. England has 203 coaches with the Pro Licence, Spain 2,140, and Germany 1,000. There are literally thousands of qualified coaches in Europe!!

Sharpe played for Fergie for 8 years. Schmeichel lasted as long under Fergie. Enough time to have an informed and credible view of his coaching. As opposed to 'WE' that have never set foot in Manchester!

Are you trying to convince yourself that Fergie's coaching improved in this century when he was well into his 60s?? Or is that when you started to be a Manure groupie?

One coach talking of the 'tactical anarchy' that Fergie served up is one of the 'many' in the game who didn't rate his coaching. It is evidence that my claim was not about 'invisible and non-existent people'. You are arguing like an angry market woman.

A good coach judges players in the tactical and technical sense. A very good manager can judge players in terms of mentality. Fergie was a good man-manager. To claim coaches hardly rate each other is further evidence of your ignorance.

Fergie was clearly a pisspoor coach (considering thousands were better). Sharpe was quite categorical when the question was put to him. Groupies like you think it is blasphemy to suggest Fergie was a bad coach. And your poor understanding of the game and all its nuances makes it difficult for you to reconcile his poor coaching ability with his team's successes.

[Coach]

Meanwhile, United have already chopped one at Sunderland.

[anointed]

You are the one getting desperate.

Your argument is really getting tired and labored. How many coached does Schmeichel know? All the coaches in Europe premier leagues, are they up to 1000 let alone thousands? Add even all the national coaches in the world to the list. It's shocking that you have taken 'thousands' literally. It's also disappointing.

May be that's why you are hiding under 'many' and un-funny pictures and anecdotes. You even went as low as saying I didn't know Lee Sharpe. In my secondary in the 80s, I kept a daily diaries of all sports event from listening to mainly BBC. That you even had to resort to bringing statements from Lee Sharpe who left Man Utd in 1996 and Schmeichel who left in 1999 shows how thin and worn out your argument is, as rightly noted by tfco. Not even a player from this century. Even the Real match you mentioned was in 2000.

If one coach calls another a "tactical anarchist" after a single game, to you it suddenly means the coaching is not rated, not even to mention that coaches hardly even rate each other. This is from the link you quoted:

Brian Clough was a better judge of players; José Mourinho is a better tactician. As Peter Schmeichel, United’s former goalkeeper, said: “There are thousands of better coaches. But management? The handling of men? There’s nobody better."

Aren't you and your link trying to say that a judge of player, a tactician, a coach and a manager are all different things? So why are equating "tactical anarchist" to mean not rated as a coach?

I think you need to commit yourself to defining what 'many' means and to state whether Fergie was a good or bad coach. Not this crafty prosaic stuff you have been bandying all over the thread, which has no head or tail. As I stated earlier, it worded so that dance out of the corner.

EPL groupies always show they don't know about football. The 'thousands' of coaches can be taken literally and figuratively. England has 1,161 coaches with the Uefa A licence, Spain has 12,720, Germany has 5,500. England has 203 coaches with the Pro Licence, Spain 2,140, and Germany 1,000. There are literally thousands of qualified coaches in Europe!!

Sharpe played for Fergie for 8 years. Schmeichel lasted as long under Fergie. Enough time to have an informed and credible view of his coaching. As opposed to 'WE' that have never set foot in Manchester!

Are you trying to convince yourself that Fergie's coaching improved in this century when he was well into his 60s?? Or is that when you started to be a Manure groupie?

One coach talking of the 'tactical anarchy' that Fergie served up is one of the 'many' in the game who didn't rate his coaching. It is evidence that my claim was not about 'invisible and non-existent people'. You are arguing like an angry market woman.

A good coach judges players in the tactical and technical sense. A very good manager can judge players in terms of mentality. Fergie was a good man-manager. To claim coaches hardly rate each other is further evidence of your ignorance.

Fergie was clearly a pisspoor coach (considering thousands were better). Sharpe was quite categorical when the question was put to him. Groupies like you think it is blasphemy to suggest Fergie was a bad coach. And your poor understanding of the game and all its nuances makes it difficult for you to reconcile his poor coaching ability with his team's successes.

Yeah, Fergie was a bad coach. That's all I need to hear

[cic old boy]

Yeah, Fergie was a bad coach. That's all I need to hear

But Lee Sharpe told you that a while ago and you didn't want to hear it.

[Coach]

Didn't Lee Sharpe beat his wife? How credible a source is he? The less said of Schmichael's fetish for a eye opener the better.

[anointed]

Didn't Lee Sharpe beat his wife? How credible a source is he? The less said of Schmichael's fetish for a eye opener the better.

So when he couldn't manage his wife he resorted to coaching her.

[tfco]

Didn't Lee Sharpe beat his wife? How credible a source is he? The less said of Schmichael's fetish for a eye opener the better.

So when he couldn't manage his wife he resorted to coaching her.

[cic old boy]

Great at time management, poor at coaching.

[wiseone]

1) In the same 6-7 year period where you claim that the EPL competition was "crap", you neglected to mention that two "crap" EPL teams contested the Champions League final against each other, Man Utd got to the Champions League final 3 times in 4 years (the only thing stopping them from making it 4 in 4 years was a crazy red card to Rafael late in the game in the semi-final against Bayern), "crap" Chelsea had Barca beaten in the semi-final until ref Ojoro and an injury time goal from Iniesta knocked out Chelsea on away goals.

2) "The Barca team beaten by Manure in 2008 was crap." Really - they had the same players as Pep's team (in fact - better players since the 2008 team still had Eto'o!).

3) Doesn't Man Utd reaching the Champions League final 3 times in 4 years tell you that they were probably a very good team, that was unfortunate to run into Pep's Barca juggernaut.

The notion that Fergie exerts control over refs is supported by the revelation in ref Mark Halsey’s book that he communicated with Fergie outside matches and requested favours of him.

The competition being crap is in relation to the past 6 or 7 years, when the Arse became a selling club, Borinho left and Chelski restrained their spending, etc. The facts support the crappiness of the competition – Man City champs and 2nd in the EPL knocked out at CL group stages 2 years running, no EPL team in last 8 last season, etc.

The Barca team beaten by Manure in 2008 was crap – that’s why Rijkaard was fired. That team ended up finishing 3rd behind Villareal in La Liga. The Roma team was a joke that chopped 7 goals against Manure. The Inter team under Mancini was a joke in Europe like Man City. When Milan were contenders, they usually knocked out Manure. I remember one home and away elimination, there was Kaka running riot at OT and the 3-0 flogging at the San Siro, etc. The two finals that Manure faced Barca were one-sided.

The trouble with people like you is that Manure’s dominance in England has given you an exaggerated impression of the team. I remember Fergie saying when they were beaten 3-1 at Wembley by Barca that their aim next season was to match and surpass Barca. The next season they were knocked out in the group stages by Basel. The reality is that Manure is stuffed with way too many average players for a club with ambitions of global dominance – Cleverley, Anderson, Carrick, Welbeck, Evans, etc would not stand out at West Ham. Since Fake Ron left they have never had any genuine world star. Rooney and RVP may look good against Southampton and Sunderland, but I can’t remember them setting the world alight in the CL.

All those nameless people you called the “greatest” and the “best” at Manure were local champions, destroying Wigan, Bolton, etc. It’s the same crap they used to say about George Best, until I discovered that his best games were against the likes of Northampton. I hope for your sanity you didn’t include Bryan Robson in your “greatest central midfielders of the modern era”. And who made Schmeichel the “greatest GK the world has seen for 20 years”? You know the “world” watches football beyond the EPL and they have seen Buffon, Casillas, etc?

[cic old boy]

1) In the same 6-7 year period where you claim that the EPL competition was "crap", you neglected to mention that two "crap" EPL teams contested the Champions League final against each other, Man Utd got to the Champions League final 3 times in 4 years (the only thing stopping them from making it 4 in 4 years was a crazy red card to Rafael late in the game in the semi-final against Bayern), "crap" Chelsea had Barca beaten in the semi-final until ref Ojoro and an injury time goal from Iniesta knocked out Chelsea on away goals.

2) "The Barca team beaten by Manure in 2008 was crap." Really - they had the same players as Pep's team (in fact - better players since the 2008 team still had Eto'o!).

3) Doesn't Man Utd reaching the Champions League final 3 times in 4 years tell you that they were probably a very good team, that was unfortunate to run into Pep's Barca juggernaut.

1. In that 6-7 year period we also witnessed the decline of Liverpool and the Arse, who had won the CL, and were finalists in previous years. Manure’s CL run in 08 saw them beat Lyon, Roma and Barca in the knockout stages. None of these teams were on top of their game then. In 09 Manure could not beat Villareal in the group stages, knocked out Inter, Porto and the Arse to reach the final. None of them were exactly world beaters. In 10/11 Manure knocked out Marseille, Chelski, Schalke to get to the final. It could be argued that the only time they met a decent team was in the final and they got outclassed as in 2009. I think the “thing” that stopped Manure in 2010 was Robben. It’s funny how you blame Rafael’s sending off for Manure losing to Bayern, and you blame the ref for Barca knocking out Chelsea, forgetting that Barca were down to 10 and Abidal was wrongfully dismissed by the same ojoro ref. The same ref gave a yellow to Dani Alves meaning he missed the final. Barca played the final against Manure without their 1st choice right and left backs. Yaya Toure had to play as CB, with Puyol at RB and old man Silvinho drafted in at LB. Yet it was a breeze against Manure.

2. Pep’s team had Eto’o too. He scored the 1st goal in the 2009 final against Manure. The team finished 3rd in the league in 2008 behind Real and Villareal. That’s when Rijkaard was sacked.

3. Manure were an average team. The one-sidedness of the finals against Barca, even with the handicaps Barca had in 2009 supports this view.

[tfco]

^^ YOU ARE FREAKING INCREDIBLE

has United beaten a team on top of it's game in the CL? Ever?

[wiseone]

TFCO -

1) I at "that 6-7 year period we also witnessed the decline of Liverpool". haha! Liverpool have not ever won the EPL! They have not won a domestic title for over 22 years! You are about two decades out of date. Yet, depite not being a serious EPL title contender, the same Liverpool won the Champions League, and got to two Champions League finals during the time period during which you claim the EPL competition was crap. Amazing that the "crap" EPL competition managed to get its teams to the Champions League final 7 (SEVEN) times in the same time period that you claim the league was crap (plus countless semi-finalists).

2) The Lyon team that Man Utd beat had 11 full internationals in their starting 11 - including a World Cup winner, Benzema, Juninho (probably the best FK taker in the world at the time), the French national team GK and several other French internationals. Lyon won the French title seven times in a row.

3) The Roma team that Man Utd beat had four world cup winners in the squad.

4) How can you say that a Barca team that got to 2 Champions League finals in 3 years was not a good side? It had Messi, Eto'o, Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol (the younger, better version) etc.

5) It is amazing that every time Man Utd reach the champions League final or win the EPL, it is because of poor or crap opposition. Does that mean then that Barca's record breaking feats were because of facing poor opposition, and Barca are average? After all - the teams they beat on their way to European dominance were the same "crap" Lyon, Arsenal etc teams that Man Utd beat (and even then - Arsenal gave Barca much more trouble than they gave Man Utd).

6) "In 09 Manure could not beat Villareal in the group stages" - so what? Football is not an exact science or a computer game with predictable, monotonous results. Barca lost to Celtic last season, and could not beat Rubin Kazan or Panathinaikos the same season before. What is Man Utd's failure to beat Villareal in a group game in 2009 (in a year in which they got to the final) meant to prove?

1. In that 6-7 year period we also witnessed the decline of Liverpool and the Arse, who had won the CL, and were finalists in previous years. Manure’s CL run in 08 saw them beat Lyon, Roma and Barca in the knockout stages. None of these teams were on top of their game then. In 09 Manure could not beat Villareal in the group stages, knocked out Inter, Porto and the Arse to reach the final. None of them were exactly world beaters. In 10/11 Manure knocked out Marseille, Chelski, Schalke to get to the final. It could be argued that the only time they met a decent team was in the final and they got outclassed as in 2009. I think the “thing” that stopped Manure in 2010 was Robben. It’s funny how you blame Rafael’s sending off for Manure losing to Bayern, and you blame the ref for Barca knocking out Chelsea, forgetting that Barca were down to 10 and Abidal was wrongfully dismissed by the same ojoro ref. The same ref gave a yellow to Dani Alves meaning he missed the final. Barca played the final against Manure without their 1st choice right and left backs. Yaya Toure had to play as CB, with Puyol at RB and old man Silvinho drafted in at LB. Yet it was a breeze against Manure.

2. Pep’s team had Eto’o too. He scored the 1st goal in the 2009 final against Manure. The team finished 3rd in the league in 2008 behind Real and Villareal. That’s when Rijkaard was sacked.

3. Manure were an average team. The one-sidedness of the finals against Barca, even with the handicaps Barca had in 2009 supports this view.

[Coach]

@CIC, com'on daaaaaaawg! Every dog has its day y'all...the Barca of Villanova humiliated many, then were disgraced by Munich, did they become sh*t in the blink of an eye? No, they met a southpaw and never saw the snappy right hand coming. Akin to the ring, anybody can anybody the f*ck out. Hasim Rakhman vs Lennox Lewis, drop your guard for a second and boom! Didn't make Lewis any less a great, just showed that, if he didn't cover up, he was going down. One day, heaven forbid, Fabulous Floyd may get tapped on the jaw and enjoy the sweetest sleep for all 10 of those seconds. United met their opponents in the ring, whether they were ready to rumble or not is irrelevant, they knew what was at stake.

...Memories of the 90s school playground spring to mind. Two youngsters squaring up in the middle of a ring of blood thirsty spectators orbiting the combatants like electrons do a nucleus. Fight! Fight! Fight! Fight! Resonated through the airwaves. Chris would turn his back on Frederick to remove his blazer...as he toiled with the sleeve he soon found himself tumbling towards the tarmac. Ground and pound, a flurry of rabbit punches followed and the contest was done. The newly arrived American, claiming to have lived in Compton had been destroyed by the young Ghanaian, of Ewe tribal descent.

...Was the gang-banger caught on a bad day? Hardly, alls fair in love and war. Frederick would later run into the clobbering left hand of one of North London's most skilled brawlers. "Eet was di hardes ponch I felt" he muttered whilst holding bloodstained tissue to an eye completely closed for business. #truestory.

...And the relevance is, when its all on the line, there's no room for excuse...which leads on to the question, 5th November, gun powder fogging up the air, visibility lower than the degrees centigrade on the thermometer, short sleeves, no shinpads, game gets the go ahead...where? Stoke, could Frederick do it?

[cic old boy]

TFCO -

1) I at "that 6-7 year period we also witnessed the decline of Liverpool". haha! Liverpool have not ever won the EPL! They have not won a domestic title for over 22 years! You are about two decades out of date. Yet, depite not being a serious EPL title contender, the same Liverpool won the Champions League, and got to two Champions League finals during the time period during which you claim the EPL competition was crap. Amazing that the "crap" EPL competition managed to get its teams to the Champions League final 7 (SEVEN) times in the same time period that you claim the league was crap (plus countless semi-finalists).

2) The Lyon team that Man Utd beat had 11 full internationals in their starting 11 - including a World Cup winner, Benzema, Juninho (probably the best FK taker in the world at the time), the French national team GK and several other French internationals. Lyon won the French title seven times in a row.

3) The Roma team that Man Utd beat had four world cup winners in the squad.

4) How can you say that a Barca team that got to 2 Champions League finals in 3 years was not a good side? It had Messi, Eto'o, Xavi, Iniesta, Puyol (the younger, better version) etc.

5) It is amazing that every time Man Utd reach the champions League final or win the EPL, it is because of poor or crap opposition. Does that mean then that Barca's record breaking feats were because of facing poor opposition, and Barca are average? After all - the teams they beat on their way to European dominance were the same "crap" Lyon, Arsenal etc teams that Man Utd beat (and even then - Arsenal gave Barca much more trouble than they gave Man Utd).

6) "In 09 Manure could not beat Villareal in the group stages" - so what? Football is not an exact science or a computer game with predictable, monotonous results. Barca lost to Celtic last season, and could not beat Rubin Kazan or Panathinaikos the same season before. What is Man Utd's failure to beat Villareal in a group game in 2009 (in a year in which they got to the final) meant to prove?

1. Liverpool may not have won the EPL, but they were are lot better then than now! Jeez! They used to regularly finish in the top four, were runners-up and won the CL and played in a final. I don't know how you can argue that when Liverpool were in the top four and winning the CL and getting to the final they didn't make the EPL stronger! I think you are getting confused. I said the EPL has been crap in the last 6-7 years. Liverpool won the CL in 2005 and got to the final in 2007. The Arse got to the CL final in 2006. The EPL was stronger then.

2. Benzema was 20 years old when they played Manure. Juninho was a Brazil benchwarmer most of the time. Winning the French title is no great shakes considering the quality of the league.

3. Roma epitomised the decline of Italian football at the time following the Calciopoli scandal.

4. You are seriously confused. Barca were poor in Rijkaard's last season. They finished 3rd and he was sacked. Deco and Ronnie were partying like it was 1999. Eto'o was said to be indisciplined. Pep was hired to cure those ills and he recommended shipping all of them out, including Eto'o - only deciding later to keep Eto'o for one last season.

5. You need luck sometimes to win competitions. For e.g. Chelsea deserved to win the CL in 2008 when they had a better team than the one that actually won in 2012. Bayern deserved to win the CL in 1999. Manure's 2 wins could be described as flukes. Just twice in all their years of winning 13 EPL titles tells its own story. You forget the Arse that gave Barca trouble in 2006 was different to the one that had sold Henry and co. Or are you talking about the later Arse that chopped 4 from Messi?

6. Manure could not beat Villareal home or away. It says a lot about their quality or lack of. It shows how a lucky draw could mean they got to the final, only to be outclassed when they met a decent team.

[cic old boy]

^^ YOU ARE FREAKING INCREDIBLE

has United beaten a team on top of it's game in the CL? Ever?

They beat Bayern in 99. We all saw how.