The Messi folks will always lose this argument and deep down they know it because their hero just hasn't given them enough ammo to do battle. Au contraire, he seems to keep equipping the "enemies". Below is a long exchange on this with a friend on a different social medium:
theDunamis wrote:
Every time the immensely talented baller at Barcelona performs some new audacious act on the field, the Messi brigade comes out in full force on social media chanting blasphemies that will make the soccer gods/goddesses cringe.
"Is Messi now better than Maradona?" postulates one rhetorically.
"For sure, Messi is the greatest of all time now," concludes another.
"He has done it all," choruses the rest of football's Messi-anic Movement.
#leSigh Here is my very simple premise-based question for the Messi brigade...
First, let's establish a couple of basic premises:
1. To postulate (even as a question) that Messi is now better than Maradona, is to suggest that Messi is now arguably the greatest of all time (leaving the Maradona v Pele debate out of the equation for simplicity)
2. The title of greatest of all time in any sport should be reserved for a player who is exceptionally gifted AND is able to use his gift to CONSISTENTLY raise the game of mere mortals -- not to mention men who are several notches above mere mortals -- around him to make a difference in many games but most importantly, in pivotal heavyweight matchups to deliver results and trophies. Examples of such heavyweight matchups at both club and country levels are Milan vs ManU 2005 and France v Brazil 2006.
If we agree with these very basic premises, can anyone in football's Messi-anic Movement please give examples of games where Messi has come through in this regard for both club and country?
theMessiphile wrote:You know I can't let this go ... Where do I even start? Have you been under a rock the past few months? I invite you to go watch pretty much any ucl game (especially both legs vs Man city and first leg against Bayern). For his country, MoM in the first 4 games of the WC last year and led them to the final. Even *you* had conceded that he had shown up this time. I see that you've now changed your tune. smh...
theDunamis wrote:LOL! Bait caught - hook, line and sinker. I knew you would be the first.
Now please, I need you to be rational and logical. Let's leave sentiments for another day. The point above is not about whether he showed up at the last WC or not. We are not even at the critical reasoning stage of this debate yet, so hang tight and brace up d00d. The point is whether any reasonable person can argue validly that he is soccer's greatest of all time.
My question was simple. Please answer it and leave sentimental MoM awards and ludicrous Golden Ball awards (even his own countryman expressed shock / embarassment at FIFA's madness in giving him that award. Anyway, my question was, in which heavyweight matchup has your hero delivered for his club and country. You've answered for club - unsurprisingly, since the charge out there is that he is an excellent club player; but you are stuttering when it comes to country. Here is a hint: Argentina had exactly 2 heavyweight matchups in the last WC. Now, inquiring minds would like to know exactly how Mr. Messi performed in those matches.
theObserver wrote:Hi theMessiphile, I also agree with theDunamis - the case here is for the greatest of all time. Even at Barca, look at the team around him. Has he done enough to warrant that title? He is absolutely one of the best ever to play the game. I think delivering for your country during those clutch games makes or breaks you. Remember when Germany tied the WC finals 2-2 in 86 after two quick goals, Maradona's defense splitting pass to Buruchaga led to the decisive 3rd goal. I think most of us will agree that Messi is great but greatest ever - maybe not. If he had delivered against Germany in 2014.. absolutely:)
Just my 2 cents:)
theDunamis wrote:Thank you theObserver. You nailed one of the ammos I was saving for later once theMessiphile comes back for more. There is a reason why the World Cup in 1986 was dubbed after the FACT as Maradona '86 --
http://espn.go.com/30for30/film?page=maradona86
theMessiphile wrote:Nah. No stuttering here. I'll reiterate: He led his country to the WC final. No small feat. I see how you keep changing the argument to fit your points. Your premise used to be that he never showed up in the WC. Now that he's done that and then some, you're switching it yet again. In the semi (admittedly not his greatest game), he stepped up and scored the first pk when it mattered. For my money, he had a good final (overtime aside). You might day he didn't score, but neither did Maradona in the final in 86.
For the record, I'm not stating ( nor have I ever) that he's the greatest ever. But I do think he's up there with Pele and Maradona, which is the source of our disagreement. What baffles me is folks' insistence that one must win a tournament that comes once every four years to even be in the conversation. Times have changed. In Maradona's (and especially Pele's) days, the best players in the world only gathered at the WC. Now, every single year, they're completing against each other in the UCL. We all know how Messi's performed there. Guardiola (amongst other greater futbol brains than you and I) recently said Messi is the best ever. So I guess he's an unreasonable character in your book?
theMessiphile wrote:@theObserver, fair points. But if you want to talk about loaded teams, shouldn't that pretty much rule Pele out of the discussion? His teams were stacked. As a matter of fact, they won the 62 WC basically without him, after he got injured. Garrincha carried the team. If your team can win the WC without you, what does that say about your added value?
Also, not sure if you've watched Barca without Messi (check out ucl quarter finals in 2013 against psg). They're not quite the same.
theObserver wrote:Hi theMessiphile, totally fair:)
That's why I didn't bring up Pele. But do you agree that 86 Argentinian team had a bunch of role players and he pretty much elevated them?
Also I have one more gripe. Look at the talent around Messi at Barca - just mind-boggling. Suarez, Neymar, most of the Spanish national team (hehe), Mascheranho.. I feel messi's confidence and his game are elevated to new heights by the sheer presence of these talented players around him. But if he sees a bunch of role players, his game definitely takes a dip - do you agree? I do agree that Barca feeds off Messi but Messi feeds off the talent around him too
theObserver wrote:By the way, love this discussion:)
theDunamis wrote:Be fair, theMessiphile. There is no moving of goalposts here because our previous debates were different. Previously, it was about how he can even be called great if he CONSISTENTLY stumbles when with the national team (at the time, he had 2 World Cup attendances with nothing to show for it) and away from his stellar cast at Barcelona. So leave that argument out of this and accept this new premise exactly as I have laid it out: for your hero to get a mention with the greats and be in contention for GoAT, he must prove #2 above. PERIOD!!
D00d, you are either being funny or dubious or both. You said and I quote, "For the record, I'm not stating ( nor have I ever) that he's the greatest ever. But I do think he's up there with Pele and Maradona". D00d, I don't know if you got the memo, but Pele and Maradona are regarded as soccer's greatest of all time by an overwhelming majority of soccer followers. So when you say, he is up there with them, but you claim you are not stating he is the greatest ever, what manner of double speak is that? Please disambiguate.
theMessiphile wrote:@theObserver, agreed on how Maradona elevated that 86 team. He did the same at Napoli. You don't have to convince me of anything when it comes to Maradona smile emoticon It's totally fair to say that Messi's surrounded by great talent at Barca. The thing is, he makes them better. That's what so incredible about the kid. The fact that he can beat you by dribbling half your team (as he did yesterday), or by splitting the defense and setting up a teammate (as he did to set up Di Maria in the WC second round last year). Often times, he'll do both in the same game (Bayern Munich in the UCL semis). He's the all-time assist leader in La Liga for a reason.
Not sure I agree that his confidence takes a dip when he suits up for Argentina. It's not like Di Maria, Aguero etc are scrubs smile emoticon. Part of it comes down to familiarity (he plays 60+ games with Barca every season versus maybe 10 for Argentina) and different style of play. I think last year he showed he can be effective with the national team. BTW, he has led them to U20 and the Olympics title (Ask Brazil if the Olympics matter). Believe it or not, that's how long theDunamis and I have been having this debate. After the U20 in 2005, I said the kid was going to be great. theDunamis said Obi Mikel (Argentina beat Nigeria in the final that year) would be better. So in a decade, we've at least progressed from Obi Mikel to Pele\Maradona. Anyway, I digress...
@theDunamis, my point is that, with or without the WC, Messi is in the conversation. Whether you like it or not and whether it suits whatever flavor-of-the-month criteria you've established. Again the game has changed. Club soccer is a lot more prominent these days. Let me channel Descartes here a bit...doesn't the very fact that we're having this discussion validate my claim? Noone is discussing whether CR7 or even Ronaldinho (who actually won a WC) should be compared to Maradona or Pele.
Man, how I hope he shuts you up for good in 2018. Del Piero won me a WC in 2006. Messi will come good too grin emoticon
theDunamis wrote:D00d, no, just no!! A player who only performs and excels with one team is NOT in any conversation about greatest of all time. It is this low bar that you Messi brigaders have set that infuriates me and why I smack down such nonsense. Go down this list and tell me who you see being a player that only excelled with one team during their careers: Diego Maradona, Pele, Zinezine Zidane, Franz Beckenbauer, Michelle Platini, Johan Cruyff. No, these players used their immense soccer talent to lift up whichever team they found themselves - and made NO EXCUSES!!!!!
theDunamis wrote:theMessiphile, you see what you are not getting is this. The greatest players will almost always find a way out when a team thinks they've found the antidote to them. It is what the greatest players do. Maradona went into WC '86 hyped to the heavens and team after team came with antidote after antidote to stop him. But guess what. Quoting ESPN:
"In the 1986 World Cup, Diego Maradona, the world's greatest football player, reached his apotheosis, redefining what is possible for one man to accomplish on a football pitch. His ability to take control of the ball -- the game -- an entire tournament -- split the world in two. It was both illuminating and an affront, beguiling and an outrage, and the fervor that surrounded him was unprecedented, bordering on the religious. Constructed from archive material, "Maradona '86" is an ode to this ultimate footballing idol, basking in the operatic intensity of his performance in Mexico as he wrote his name on football history forever."
Your boy has had 3 - THREE - World Cup tournaments to stamp himself on a tournament on the world stage and deliver something but as you well know, he has come up short. Again and again and again. It is said that when a defining moment comes along, you either define the moment or the moment defines you. As Messi stood to take that last minute freekick for Argentina against Germany last year, it was a symbolic defining moment. And the moment sorely defined him. PERIOD. POINT. BLANK. #blank
theMessiphile wrote:Like I said, I need no convincing of Maradona's greatness. Preaching very much to the choir there.
As to your list...I'm glad to see that you have Platini and Cruyff on there. How many WC trophies do they have again (to use your favorite ammo)? Platini never even made a final. So I'm curious to hear your explanation for why they're greater than Messi (again, going by your "WC as be-all end-all" mantra).
You keep skirting my point about club football, probably because you have no legit counter-argument to it. That's why I've stopped trying to figure out who's the GOAT. The game has changed so much that cross-era comparisons are futile. Like it or not, the era we live in is dominated by club football. The World Cup is and always will be magical, but the UCL is right up there in terms of prestige now. In fact, is there any doubt that the Bayerns and Barcas of recent incarnation would probably win the WC over national teams? Messi is the best in this era (if you have another opinion on this, would love to hear it), which puts him in the conversation with the previous all-timers. (60s- Pele; 70s-Cruyff; 80s- El Pibe; 90s/2000s; Zidane\R9; 2010s Messi)
It took you a decade to accept that he's great. It'll probably take you another one to accept that he's a GOAT candidate. I have no doubt that you'll one day see what most of the world sees now. You'll come around. I'll keep you a warm spot on the bandwagon smile emoticon
theDunamis wrote:I warned you that critical reasoning will be required as we progress. HINT: we are already at that stage.
What was the context in which I put up the list you referred to? Yep, that's right - great players who EXCELLED (no ifs, buts, or wudda-cudda-shudda) and raised the overall weight across the multiple teams they found themselves and coming through for their teams in make or break games.
Pele: Santos and Brazil
Cruyff: Ajax, Barcelona, Feyenoord
Beckenbauer: Bayern, Hamburger SV, Germany
Platini: Saint-Étienne, Juve, France
Maradona: Boca, Barcelona, Napoli, Argentina
Zidane: Juve, Real, France
theMessiphile wrote:Lol theDunamis, you're hilarious. As I said before, you'll make up criteria as you go to suit your points. Cruyff (just like Messi), led his club teams to multiple titles but was *not* able to lead his national team to the WC title. He stumbled at the final stage, just like Messi. For that, people have (I personally think unfairly) always docked him. He and Messi have basically achieved comparable things, so that should at the very least put them in equal standing per your original criteria . But because that doesn't suit your agenda, you've now added this new twist that one most have played for more than a singular club team? Good night. The saga continues smile emoticon
theDunamis wrote:No, it's not a new criterion. Your blind loyalty to Messi makes everything a new criterion only because your hero can't quite measure up where it counts. Dave, come on, this is not hard to comprehend. The premise is simple and remains unchanged - each of those folks have excelled and raised the game of every team they have been in. Each except your hero who has never been able to propel the Argentine national team to anything after about a decade of trying. I know it hurts but those are the facts and I didn't make them - your boy did. smile emoticon
theDunamis wrote:Let's close this thread out and use it as the official record for future discussions on the topic. I will close with what I said at the very beginning of the thread since all your ranting shows you need repitition to comprehend:
"The title of greatest of all time in any sport should be reserved for a player who is exceptionally gifted AND is able to use his gift to CONSISTENTLY raise the game of mere mortals -- not to mention men who are several notches above mere mortals -- around him to make a difference in many games but most importantly, in pivotal heavyweight matchups to deliver results and trophies."
That is a direct quote from my initial post so your charge about changing of criteria is baseless -- although quite typical. Now wake me or this thread up when your idol finally knows how to use his talent to raise the game of the ONLY other team besides FC Barcelona that he has had a chance to. He has had a decade to do this but it seems like he needs a bit more time.
:)