Diego Maradona questions Lionel Messi's commitment to Argent

[ohsee]

Ohsee,

Bros, you mention one thing that made me think. You know, I had not even thought about a player's ability in the air and that was what Pele also had that neither Maradona nor Messi can even be mentioned in that category. You know, when thinking about Pele in the air the only comparable names in that category would be likes of Batistuta and Ronaldo (Real Madrid). Fact is Pele was a COMPLETE footballer. He did not need others to make him great. HE MADE OTHERS GREAT. Enough for the wise.

Chief,
you nailed it right there. The other contenders for GOAT are/were far from complete footballers.

[Vincent.]

Agreed. Even Messi himself seems the type of personality who will have no problem accepting that Maradona may be better than him. I am almost sure that his life goal is not "to be better than Maradona at all cost." My problem is with people who don't bother to hide their joy whenever Argentina fails to win something and promptly open threads blaming Messi for the results of an entire team.

The Copa America is the latest evidence if this: Messi was the best player at the tournament and the best player in almost every match he played. Yet, he is being blamed for "not doing enough," for not forcing Higuain to hit the target from the penalty spot, for not bribing the opposition keeper not to save penalties...

Vincent,

Messi is a great player and all those you have mentioned are indeed great players. I do not think that any one can ever dispute that.

However, when you have to compare a great player to another one then ultimately the evaluation may lead to one being considered better than the other. Think for a moment comparing Messi to Okocha who you have below or comparing Messi to Ronaldo (Real). Fact is many will most likely argue that Messi is above any of those two players.

But when you compare Messi to Maradona or Messi to Pele, it is likely that Messi WILL NOT be considered better than those two. Still it does not take away the tag of great players attached to all the players mentioned above.

Ohsee,

Bros, you mention one thing that made me think. You know, I had not even thought about a player's ability in the air and that was what Pele also had that neither Maradona nor Messi can even be mentioned in that category. You know, when thinking about Pele in the air the only comparable names in that category would be likes of Batistuta and Ronaldo (Real Madrid). Fact is Pele was a COMPLETE footballer. He did not need others to make him great. HE MADE OTHERS GREAT. Enough for the wise.

Kpom. This is what my Uncle Ohsee has been saying
whenever this argument crops up. Pele is just simply
in another stratosphere.

EII, note that Pele aged 17 scored a HATTRICK in the
WC semis and that added two more in the finals. At that
age Maradona was getting sent off in the preliminary
rounds and Messi was still taking growth hormones.

So what? Players develop/mature at different ages. That adds nothing to the debate. Didier Drogba was still playing in French division two in the early to mid-20s before exploding into the player we know know... Zinedine Zidane was an average player until he exploded at Juventus in his mid-20s. Mikel was one of the best players in the U-20 World Cup until Mourinho "polished" him into an average side-way passer...

What I really don't understand is why people are so determined to undermine Messi's achievements. I don't really see many people opening threads to prove that Messi is better than Maradona or Pele, but we see people opening numerous threads in a bid to "prove" that Messi is not as good as Maradona. So what? Maradona was a great player. Pele was a great player. Messi is a great player. Ronaldo was a great player. Zidane was a great player... Even Okocha, Gearge Weah, Roger Milla were great players.

[Vincent.]

So what? Players develop/mature at different ages. That adds nothing to the debate. Didier Drogba was still playing in French division two in the early to mid-20s before exploding into the player we know know... Zinedine Zidane was an average player until he exploded at Juventus in his mid-20s. Mikel was one of the best players in the U-20 World Cup until Mourinho "polished" him into an average side-way passer...

What I really don't understand is why people are so determined to undermine Messi's achievements. I don't really see many people opening threads to prove that Messi is better than Maradona or Pele, but we see people opening numerous threads in a bid to "prove" that Messi is not as good as Maradona. So what? Maradona was a great player. Pele was a great player. Messi is a great player. Ronaldo was a great player. Zidane was a great player... Even Okocha, Gearge Weah, Roger Milla were great players.

Senor Vincente Del Opaksologico,
You don come again. As I often demonstrate on Rant and Rave, you no get logic. I will leave the rest of your nonsense yarns and concentrate on the one that bugs me the most (see highlighted).

My friend, the debate is, "Who is the GOAT, Pele, Maradona, or Messi?" As I pointed out in other threads, when we are considering greatness, we examine and tally EXTRAORDINARY accomplishments. If most outstanding players begin to show their abilities from 23 to 28, and you find one that begins to show his at 17, AND CONTINUES TO SHOW IT THROUGHOUT HIS CAREER, would you not agree that this person is a serious outlier who deserves to be regarded with amazement and wonder because of this EXTRAORDINARY deed?

According to your typically opaksical logic, we should say, "So what?" if a 14 year old suddenly solved the Grant Unified Theory of Physics that has eluded the best scientists since nineteen kiridim. Because that is the equivalent of what Pele did in the field of soccer when he burst on the professional scene at 16 and won the scoring title in the Paulista League, while only playing half the games; was taken to the World Cup the next year while injured, recovered mid-tournament, and went on to be the second highest scorer in the entire tourney, scoring some absolutely spectacular goals in the process, while helping his team win THE BIG ONE. My friend, if you think about it, these incredible acts at the very beginning of his career, these acts ALONE should put Pele at the very top of the listing for Greatest Of All Time; and when you consider that his entire playing career is filled with such EXTRAORDINARY achievements, you will realize that it is no contest at all: Pele is, BY FAR, the greatest of all time.

Oya, carry on. Continue your usual opaks. It is to be expected.

Chief, I was responding to a specific claim that Pele had won the World Cup by the age of 17 while Maradona were not yet close to achieving that feat by that age. I repeat, that statement adds nothing to the debate because players peak at various ages.

It is like arguing that Roger Milla was greater than Pele because Roger Milla was starring in the World Cup in Italy when he was almost 40 years old while Pele could no longer make the national team at that age. Such an argument would add nothing to the debate about the abilities of Pele vs Roger Milla because the age of retirement is not an indication of overall ability (just as the fact that Pele played in the World Cup at 17 while Maradona and Messi did not), which is exactly my point, and it is perfectly logical. QED

[theDunamis]

What I really don't understand is why people are so determined to undermine Messi's achievements. I don't really see many people opening threads to prove that Messi is better than Maradona or Pele, but we see people opening numerous threads in a bid to "prove" that Messi is not as good as Maradona.

Hahahahahaaa!!!! You fuh-nee!!!

Hey listen man, there is this thing called a search function on the CE website. If you take a couple of minutes to learn how to use it, you will find that just this year alone, we had this ignorance, this madness, and Messi-anic orgies with damnations like this.

[ohsee]

It is like arguing that Roger Milla was greater than Pele because Roger Milla was starring in the World Cup in Italy when he was almost 40 years old while Pele could no longer make the national team at that age. Such an argument would add nothing to the debate about the abilities of Pele vs Roger Milla because the age of retirement is not an indication of overall ability (just as the fact that Pele played in the World Cup at 17 while Maradona and Messi did not), which is exactly my point, and it is perfectly logical. QED

Chineke God! Vincent, how do you manage it? How do you consistently produce the most laughter inducing and absurd opaks in the history of the misbehavior? I hereby declare you the Pele of opaksology, the Greatest of All Time In Opaks (GOATIO!) I have been on the floor laughing so hard since I read your sophistricks above, sotay Madam think say stroke, madness and hat attack don catch me at the same time.

I will ignore your straw man claims--no one said playing at the World Cup at 17 ALONE is proof of anything, the argument is much more complex than that. I will just say that if,

1) Roger Milla played in a World Cup at 17 and won it as top scorer for Cameroon, and second top scorer in that World Cup

2) Roger Milla terrorized the entire world for a decade plus on the green grass, and scored over 1,000 goals

3) Roger Milla won a second World Cup at the age of 40, scoring four goals and setting everyone else up as if it was going out of style,

then surely a case could be made for Roger to be considered greater than Pele, precisely because he has that ADDITIONAL achievement of having won it at age 40, something Pele did not do.

You get it? One can never be too sure because too much opaks is occupying space in your head.

So, my dear Chief Opaksologist, the fact that genius manifested itself much, much earlier for Pele than it did for Messi and Maradona, is one of the ADDITIONAL EXTRAORDINARY FACTORS that takes Pele well beyond the Argentinians in the GOAT stakes. QED squared

[Vincent.]

It is like arguing that Roger Milla was greater than Pele because Roger Milla was starring in the World Cup in Italy when he was almost 40 years old while Pele could no longer make the national team at that age. Such an argument would add nothing to the debate about the abilities of Pele vs Roger Milla because the age of retirement is not an indication of overall ability (just as the fact that Pele played in the World Cup at 17 while Maradona and Messi did not), which is exactly my point, and it is perfectly logical. QED

Chineke God! Vincent, how do you manage it? How do you consistently produce the most laughter inducing and absurd opaks in the history of the misbehavior? I hereby declare you the Pele of opaksology, the Greatest of All Time In Opaks (GOATIO!) I have been on the floor laughing so hard since I read your sophistricks above, sotay Madam think say stroke, madness and hat attack don catch me at the same time.

I will ignore your straw man claims--no one said playing at the World Cup at 17 ALONE is proof of anything, the argument is much more complex than that. I will just say that if,

1) Roger Milla played in a World Cup at 17 and won it as top scorer for Cameroon, and second top scorer in that World Cup

2) Roger Milla terrorized the entire world for a decade plus on the green grass, and scored over 1,000 goals

3) Roger Milla won a second World Cup at the age of 40, scoring four goals and setting everyone else up as if it was going out of style,

then surely a case could be made for Roger to be considered greater than Pele, precisely because he has that ADDITIONAL achievement of having won it at age 40, something Pele did not do.

You get it? One can never be too sure because too much opaks is occupying space in your head.

So, my dear Chief Opaksologist, the fact that genius manifested itself much, much earlier for Pele than it did for Messi and Maradona, is one of the ADDITIONAL EXTRAORDINARY FACTORS that takes Pele well beyond the Argentinians in the GOAT stakes. QED squared

Wow

[tfco]

"It's logical that he comes in for flak, it's easy to explain. We've got the best player in the world, who goes and scores four goals against Real Sociedad, then he comes here and doesn't touch the ball".

"You're left saying to yourself 'Dammit, are you Argentinian or Swedish?" Maradona added.

Dear Diego
Enjoy the Super Cup, the trophy of all trophies.

p.s - how you say bye bye in Swedish?
LM

[kajifu]

"It's logical that he comes in for flak, it's easy to explain. We've got the best player in the world, who goes and scores four goals against Real Sociedad, then he comes here and doesn't touch the ball".

"You're left saying to yourself 'Dammit, are you Argentinian or Swedish?" Maradona added.

Dear Diego
Enjoy the Super Cup, the trophy of all trophies.

p.s - how you say bye bye in Swedish?
LM

Chei you wicked oooh

[Vincent.]

"It's logical that he comes in for flak, it's easy to explain. We've got the best player in the world, who goes and scores four goals against Real Sociedad, then he comes here and doesn't touch the ball".

"You're left saying to yourself 'Dammit, are you Argentinian or Swedish?" Maradona added.

Dear Diego
Enjoy the Super Cup, the trophy of all trophies.

p.s - how you say bye bye in Swedish?
LM

Chei you wicked oooh

I love Maradona as a player, but how many European cups did Maradona win?
Maradona was the Argentina coach at the 2010 World Cup, I wonder whether he thinks that Argentina did not win not win the 2010 World Cup because their coach was not Swedish...

[tfco]

TFCO - This fight against Messi is the height of foolishness. The guy is the best player of his era whether he wins with Argentina or not. The trophy will eventually come btw

blaming Messi for Argentina's failures is like blaming LeBron James for Cavaliers' inability to win NBA finals.

I just love love love CE archives

[YemiBrazil]

TFCO - This fight against Messi is the height of foolishness. The guy is the best player of his era whether he wins with Argentina or not. The trophy will eventually come btw

blaming Messi for Argentina's failures is like blaming LeBron James for Cavaliers' inability to win NBA finals.

I just love love love CE archives

[tfco]

TFCO - This fight against Messi is the height of foolishness. The guy is the best player of his era whether he wins with Argentina or not. The trophy will eventually come btw

Can't defend Messi's performances in international cup finals after this one. He choked today

apology accepted

[kajifu]

TFCO - This fight against Messi is the height of foolishness. The guy is the best player of his era whether he wins with Argentina or not. The trophy will eventually come btw

Can't defend Messi's performances in international cup finals after this one. He choked today

apology accepted

[tfco]

TFCO - This fight against Messi is the height of foolishness. The guy is the best player of his era whether he wins with Argentina or not. The trophy will eventually come btw

blaming Messi for Argentina's failures is like blaming LeBron James for Cavaliers' inability to win NBA finals.

my belle o

[airwolex]

TFCO - This fight against Messi is the height of foolishness. The guy is the best player of his era whether he wins with Argentina or not. The trophy will eventually come btw

blaming Messi for Argentina's failures is like blaming LeBron James for Cavaliers' inability to win NBA finals.

my belle o

[kajifu]

TFCO - This fight against Messi is the height of foolishness. The guy is the best player of his era whether he wins with Argentina or not. The trophy will eventually come btw

blaming Messi for Argentina's failures is like blaming LeBron James for Cavaliers' inability to win NBA finals.

my belle o

[kajifu]

"It's logical that he comes in for flak, it's easy to explain. We've got the best player in the world, who goes and scores four goals against Real Sociedad, then he comes here and doesn't touch the ball".

"You're left saying to yourself 'Dammit, are you Argentinian or Swedish?" Maradona added.

Dear Diego
Enjoy the Super Cup, the trophy of all trophies.

p.s - how you say bye bye in Swedish?
LM

Chei you wicked oooh

I love Maradona as a player, but how many European cups did Maradona win?
Maradona was the Argentina coach at the 2010 World Cup, I wonder whether he thinks that Argentina did not win not win the 2010 World Cup because their coach was not Swedish...

Maradona does not need to win many European cups.If he stay in one club like Messi he would have won them more than Messi.
I hope you are not trying to compare him with Diego?

[john12]

Messi was better. Wake me up when Maradona wins a champions league, let alone 3 champions league. Fact is that Maradona didn't score in a world Cup final so all that single-handedly nonsense is a myth. The same way Maradona created clear cut opportunity for whoever scored in 1986 final is tantamount to how messi created for hinguain. The only difference is that hinguain missed

[cyrilndo]

Internet bullying is all over this thread.
I am sorry for Messi.
Can you imagine Messi coming on this thread and read what the likes of Pa Ohse is writing.
He does not have pity for the kid.

[tfco]

Messi was better. Wake me up when Maradona wins a champions league, let alone 3 champions league. Fact is that Maradona didn't score in a world Cup final so all that single-handedly nonsense is a myth. The same way Maradona created clear cut opportunity for whoever scored in 1986 final is tantamount to how messi created for hinguain. The only difference is that hinguain missed

But...but...but Diego did this after the Final...



and The Swede did this after each Final...

[tfco]

TFCO - This fight against Messi is the height of foolishness. The guy is the best player of his era whether he wins with Argentina or not. The trophy will eventually come btw

Can't defend Messi's performances in international cup finals after this one. He choked today

apology accepted

[kajifu]

TFCO - This fight against Messi is the height of foolishness. The guy is the best player of his era whether he wins with Argentina or not. The trophy will eventually come btw

Can't defend Messi's performances in international cup finals after this one. He choked today

apology accepted