Diego Maradona questions Lionel Messi's commitment to Argent

[ohsee]

Yujam,

No doubt he is the best player of his era. That is exactly where it ends. As per comparing him to Maradona, they are entirely different. Maradona was a play maker. I think Messi has same level of skill as Maradona and Pele. His problem may just be that he does not have the personality to simply take over at the NT level. The others look to him to no avail but he appears to look to guys who are much lesser skilled. Until he does shoulder the burden, Argentina will continue to flounder. In this same era, we have seen lesser guys like Arjen Robben and Pirlo impose themselves on their NT. Thus, that surely is not only possible now but in fact there are examples.

Enugu II,
I agree with everything you said but the highlighted. The two Argentinians were/are earthbound players. In addition to Pele's ground-based skills, he was, despite his shortness at 5ft 8ins, also a serious aerial threat who could out jump virtually all six footers, could head the ball as hard and as accurately as he could hit it with his feet, and constantly set people up to score goals with his heading. Pele could shoot accurately with both left and right, and bend the ball with both feet. There is a skill-based reason why Pele has a much better statistical and winning record than Messi or Maradona.

[ohsee]

[It is unfair to ask Messi to do the job of 11 men. Maradona did not, neither did Pele have to.

But why is Messi a bust at Finals? Take over the game, score a goal in a losing effort, set people up, Jeez, do something, anything! When Zidane set Guivarch up--how many times was it in 1998? 50 times?--and the idiotu fluffed all the chances, what did Zidane do? Take over the goal scoring duties himself, that's what. That's what an all time great does, not mope around the field and wish he had Neymar and Suarex and Xavi and Iniesta on the team.

When Pele and Maradona got to a WC final, they did not take chances--at least Pele did not. They put the ball in the net by any means necessary, and or set other people up to score goals. What does Messi do? Nada.

[ohsee]

Maybe Argentina should model their style and tactics on Barcelona if they want Messi to replicate his Barca performances? They cannot play him as a midfielder and expect him to score as many goals as he does for Barca, where he is part of a front three

Senor Vicenzo El Brilliant Coachito,
Kai! So you are the only one to have thought up this stupendously fantastic and original idea? You are truly the greatest intanet coach of all time. But the real queshon of queshons is, why has no one tried this your fantabulous idea for Messi?

[kajifu]

Maybe Argentina should model their style and tactics on Barcelona if they want Messi to replicate his Barca performances? They cannot play him as a midfielder and expect him to score as many goals as he does for Barca, where he is part of a front three

Senor Vicenzo El Brilliant Coachito,
Kai! So you are the only one to have thought up this stupendously fantastic and original idea? You are truly the greatest intanet coach of all time. But the real queshon of queshons is, why has no one tried this your fantabulous idea for Messi?

[Vincent.]

Maybe Argentina should model their style and tactics on Barcelona if they want Messi to replicate his Barca performances? They cannot play him as a midfielder and expect him to score as many goals as he does for Barca, where he is part of a front three

Senor Vicenzo El Brilliant Coachito,
Kai! So you are the only one to have thought up this stupendously fantastic and original idea? You are truly the greatest intanet coach of all time. But the real queshon of queshons is, why has no one tried this your fantabulous idea for Messi?

Chief, you misunderstood my comment: what I am saying is that if Argentines are going to keep complaining that Messi's performances at Barca are not a carbon copy of his performances for Argentina, maybe they should make sure that Argentina's approach is a cabon copy of Barca's approach. In that case the complaints will be legiyimate. The reality is that his role in Argentina is different from his role at Barca, the setups are different, the tactical approaches are different, the types of personnel employed are different, so the results are different.

At this year's Copa America, his role was to go deep into midfield, bring the ball forward across two lines of midfield and defense, and create chances for the forwards. He did create tons of chances throughout the tournament. He was the MVP in practically all his matches, and he was the MVP of the entire tournament. Did all this translate into victory for Argentina? No.

The mature question is "Why?" Maybe all the chances created needed to be converted more efficiently? Maybe the coach needed to make some tactical adjustments to take advantage of having the tournament's MVP? Maybe the coach needed to adjust his coaching philosophy? Maybe he needed to select a different profile of players? Blaming the MVP of the tournament for "lacking commitment" is a cop-out because he did more than enough to be the the best player at the tournament.

[Kabalega]

Maradona had a better team. Just watch Argentina vs Brazil in 1982 when young Diego tormented the Brazilians and got sent off for retaliation.

Huh? Kabalega, you sure you watched that game? Diego tormented the Brazilians in 1982? For where? Diego was a bust in that WC, and punched someone in frustration because despite the fact that the Brazilians gave all the space he needed, he could not do nada.

Also not sure what you are talking about; the team Maradona had in 1982 was indeed a great team with Osvaldo Ardilles, Mario "The Hammer" Kempes, and captain Daniel Passarella--the core of that '82 team won the World Cup for Argentina four years earlier in 1978. Diego was surrounded by great players, but could not perform in that tourney.

In 1986, the only players from '82 left on the team were goalkeeper Pumpido, Diego Armando Maradona, and Jorge Valdano. The 86 team was NOT a better team than the 1978/82 team.

Do you know what Diego Armando Maradona and Pele have in common?
They both got hit hard in a WC got sent off and came back 4 years later to win it all. I've seen a documentary on this....

Brazil's answer to Maradona in '82 was to break his legs. They tried but the officials did little to protect the guy until he lost it and got a red card.

On the bigger issue at hand, whether Messi has better teammates than Diego Maradona, there is no doubt that Maradona played with better players. There is a reason Brazil's awesome team of '86 won nada. It was imbalanced. Argentina has not had a good spine -which is important - ever since Messi started playing for them.

BTW, note that Argentines complain more than Nigerians (a tall order) but can you believe that they blamed Messi for losing a WC qualifier in Bolivia? Maradona was the coach ..... anybody who saw that game would not blame anybody, maybe the coach, because of the high elevation, the Argentines could not run, the ball was flying around like crazy. But Maradona made the call to go there hours before the game. Yet everyone blamed Messi after the game.

Fast forward to 2015 Copa America. Messi and Co dominated their first game against Paraguay and should have gone up 4-0 in the first half. The coach made stupid subs, and Paraguay drew the game 2-2. Messi was pissed! Where were Mascerano and all the other popular players? MIA!

Diego Maradona had more reliable players around him. It's a team sport.

[Vincent.]

if Maradona had Higuain playing in front of him instead of Buruchaga or Valdano, he wont have won the WC in 1986.

If Messi had Cannigia playing with him in place of Higuain, he would have won world cup in 2014 and Copa America.

so, Maradona should shattap

It is kind of strange how people complain that Messi at Barca is different from Messi at Argentina. It is obvious that the player's roles are different and the team set-ups and personnel are different, so it is not a surprise that the outcome is different.

What I noted in the Copa America is that Messi was essentially playing as a midfielder, where his role was to create chances for the forwards. He did create chances, but the forwards did not finish the chances. On the contrary, at Barca he is one of the three striker, with Iniesta, Rakitic, and Busquets (as well as the wing backs Dani Alves and Jordi Alba) creating the scoring chances.

Argentines needs to be asking themselves why they are unable to get the best out of the best player in the world instead of accusing him of lack of commitment. They should be asking whether their tactical set-up is good enough. They should be asking why a player like Higuain is asked to take a PK after missing the PK that denied Napoli a Champions League position just a couple of months earlier or missing a gift at the World Cup.

When you have players like Aguero, Messi, Pastore, Di Maria, Mascherano, Tevez, etc in your team, you should not be waiting for a single individual like Messi to bail you out. Messi provides an advantage that no other national team has, but Argentina has enough players to win major trophies even without Messi. They need to ask themselves why they have won nothing in 22 years instead on blaming a single individual.

Surprised Maradona had nothing to say about Tata Martino.

It always pains me to see managers playing the percentages. Argentina had no clear tactical direction, except perhaps against Colombia, in which ironically their couldn't score!

Of the four Argentine managers that dot to the Copa s/final, Martino was the one with no clear tactical ideas in the manner in which he organized his team.

Its the same weakness that floored him at Barca...

Exactly! He had the same issues at Barca, where he also had a decent squad.

[juventuss]

Maradona is asking the wrong question. Messi gives 100% for Argentina. However, he is used to playing within a certain system and that is not how Argentina plays. Argentina is top heavy with very good midfielders and a pretty stout defense. When I've watched Messi play for Argentina, he drops deep but is not getting the complementary service and movement he normally would have gotten from a Dani Alves, Iniesta, Jordi Alba and co. As he moves up field, he is able to work some combination plays with Aguero, Di Maria, and Lavezzi. But for the most part he is sitting too deep to carry the ball, make the open plays and then score the goals. I think as Pereya and Dybala get more playing time with Argentina, Messi will move back into his comfortable position and that is running at the last line of defense.

[PapaK]

blaming Messi for Argentina's failures is like blaming LeBron James for Cavaliers' inability to win NBA finals.

[ohsee]

blaming Messi for Argentina's failures is like blaming LeBron James for Cavaliers' inability to win NBA finals.

But LeBron has won two NBA Finals now.

[ohsee]

Do you know what Diego Armando Maradona and Pele have in common?
They both got hit hard in a WC got sent off and came back 4 years later to win it all. I've seen a documentary on this....

Brazil's answer to Maradona in '82 was to break his legs. They tried but the officials did little to protect the guy until he lost it and got a red card.

Kabalega, I forgive you. You are a true African. I used to think that it was only Nigerians who made up wild stuff to support their crazy ideas and ojoro stories, but now I know better.

Pele was NEVER sent off at ANY World Cup. Clearly you have not watched any of these documentaries and videos you claim to have seen.

[Bigpokey24]

blaming Messi for Argentina's failures is like blaming LeBron James for Cavaliers' inability to win NBA finals.

this makes no sense, didn't LEbron win 2 championships when he took his talents to south Beach?

[PapaK]

blaming Messi for Argentina's failures is like blaming LeBron James for Cavaliers' inability to win NBA finals.

But LeBron has won two NBA Finals now.

just like Messi has won 4 ECL finals

[ohsee]

blaming Messi for Argentina's failures is like blaming LeBron James for Cavaliers' inability to win NBA finals.

But LeBron has won two NBA Finals now.

just like Messi has won 4 ECL finals

Predictable. ECL is not the biggest championship in footie. NBA is the biggest in basketball..

[kajifu]

blaming Messi for Argentina's failures is like blaming LeBron James for Cavaliers' inability to win NBA finals.

But LeBron has won two NBA Finals now.

why waste your time uncle to reply.
Has it ever occur to them that Messi is just not as good when not playing along side the likes of Inniesta and the Barca system?
People forget that players like Di Marie are the reason Argentina even go far but Messi will take all the yeye praise.
Di Marie missing world cup final was a huge blow and if he was the guy playing in the place of Messi,Argentina would have stand a better chance.
same like this copa,Di Marie absent at the final was a huge blow for Argentina than Messi present.
Messi is nothing but a club legend and he even need to move to another club and do it again.
He is even lucky to play in a team like Barca not the other way round.This same Barca team form the bone of the Spain team that win Euro back to back and world cup.One of the greatest national team of all time 70% of the players play for Barca that Messi was playing.

[ohsee]

blaming Messi for Argentina's failures is like blaming LeBron James for Cavaliers' inability to win NBA finals.

But LeBron has won two NBA Finals now.

why waste your time uncle to reply.
Has it ever occur to them that Messi is just not as good when not playing along side the likes of Inniesta and the Barca system?
People forget that players like Di Marie are the reason Argentina even go far but Messi will take all the yeye praise.
Di Marie missing world cup final was a huge blow and if he was the guy playing in the place of Messi,Argentina would have stand a better chance.
same like this copa,Di Marie absent at the final was a huge blow for Argentina than Messi present.
Messi is nothing but a club legend and he even need to move to another club and do it again.
He is even lucky to play in a team like Barca not the other way round.This same Barca team form the bone of the Spain team that win Euro back to back and world cup.One of the greatest national team of all time 70% of the players play for Barca that Messi was playing.

Chief, the day Messi is foolish enough to leave Barcelona, that is the day all this nonsense about him being the greatest player ever will stop.

[Enugu II]

Ohsee,

Bros, you mention one thing that made me think. You know, I had not even thought about a player's ability in the air and that was what Pele also had that neither Maradona nor Messi can even be mentioned in that category. You know, when thinking about Pele in the air the only comparable names in that category would be likes of Batistuta and Ronaldo (Real Madrid). Fact is Pele was a COMPLETE footballer. He did not need others to make him great. HE MADE OTHERS GREAT. Enough for the wise.

[Ebyboy]

Ohsee,

Bros, you mention one thing that made me think. You know, I had not even thought about a player's ability in the air and that was what Pele also had that neither Maradona nor Messi can even be mentioned in that category. You know, when thinking about Pele in the air the only comparable names in that category would be likes of Batistuta and Ronaldo (Real Madrid). Fact is Pele was a COMPLETE footballer. He did not need others to make him great. HE MADE OTHERS GREAT. Enough for the wise.

Kpom. This is what my Uncle Ohsee has been saying
whenever this argument crops up. Pele is just simply
in another stratosphere.

EII, note that Pele aged 17 scored a HATTRICK in the
WC semis and that added two more in the finals. At that
age Maradona was getting sent off in the preliminary
rounds and Messi was still taking growth hormones.

[YemiBrazil]

Ohsee,

Bros, you mention one thing that made me think. You know, I had not even thought about a player's ability in the air and that was what Pele also had that neither Maradona nor Messi can even be mentioned in that category. You know, when thinking about Pele in the air the only comparable names in that category would be likes of Batistuta and Ronaldo (Real Madrid). Fact is Pele was a COMPLETE footballer. He did not need others to make him great. HE MADE OTHERS GREAT. Enough for the wise.

Kpom. This is what my Uncle Ohsee has been saying
whenever this argument crops up. Pele is just simply
in another stratosphere.

EII, note that Pele aged 17 scored a HATTRICK in the
WC semis and that added two more in the finals. At that
age Maradona was getting sent off in the preliminary
rounds and Messi was still taking growth hormones.

Chaaaiiiiiiiii! KPOM KPOM KPOM KPOM KPOM

[Vincent.]

Ohsee,

Bros, you mention one thing that made me think. You know, I had not even thought about a player's ability in the air and that was what Pele also had that neither Maradona nor Messi can even be mentioned in that category. You know, when thinking about Pele in the air the only comparable names in that category would be likes of Batistuta and Ronaldo (Real Madrid). Fact is Pele was a COMPLETE footballer. He did not need others to make him great. HE MADE OTHERS GREAT. Enough for the wise.

Kpom. This is what my Uncle Ohsee has been saying
whenever this argument crops up. Pele is just simply
in another stratosphere.

EII, note that Pele aged 17 scored a HATTRICK in the
WC semis and that added two more in the finals. At that
age Maradona was getting sent off in the preliminary
rounds and Messi was still taking growth hormones.

So what? Players develop/mature at different ages. That adds nothing to the debate. Didier Drogba was still playing in French division two in the early to mid-20s before exploding into the player we know know... Zinedine Zidane was an average player until he exploded at Juventus in his mid-20s. Mikel was one of the best players in the U-20 World Cup until Mourinho "polished" him into an average side-way passer...

What I really don't understand is why people are so determined to undermine Messi's achievements. I don't really see many people opening threads to prove that Messi is better than Maradona or Pele, but we see people opening numerous threads in a bid to "prove" that Messi is not as good as Maradona. So what? Maradona was a great player. Pele was a great player. Messi is a great player. Ronaldo was a great player. Zidane was a great player... Even Okocha, Gearge Weah, Roger Milla were great players.

[Enugu II]

Vincent,

Messi is a great player and all those you have mentioned are indeed great players. I do not think that any one can ever dispute that.

However, when you have to compare a great player to another one then ultimately the evaluation may lead to one being considered better than the other. Think for a moment comparing Messi to Okocha who you have below or comparing Messi to Ronaldo (Real). Fact is many will most likely argue that Messi is above any of those two players.

But when you compare Messi to Maradona or Messi to Pele, it is likely that Messi WILL NOT be considered better than those two. Still it does not take away the tag of great players attached to all the players mentioned above.

Ohsee,

Bros, you mention one thing that made me think. You know, I had not even thought about a player's ability in the air and that was what Pele also had that neither Maradona nor Messi can even be mentioned in that category. You know, when thinking about Pele in the air the only comparable names in that category would be likes of Batistuta and Ronaldo (Real Madrid). Fact is Pele was a COMPLETE footballer. He did not need others to make him great. HE MADE OTHERS GREAT. Enough for the wise.

Kpom. This is what my Uncle Ohsee has been saying
whenever this argument crops up. Pele is just simply
in another stratosphere.

EII, note that Pele aged 17 scored a HATTRICK in the
WC semis and that added two more in the finals. At that
age Maradona was getting sent off in the preliminary
rounds and Messi was still taking growth hormones.

So what? Players develop/mature at different ages. That adds nothing to the debate. Didier Drogba was still playing in French division two in the early to mid-20s before exploding into the player we know know... Zinedine Zidane was an average player until he exploded at Juventus in his mid-20s. Mikel was one of the best players in the U-20 World Cup until Mourinho "polished" him into an average side-way passer...

What I really don't understand is why people are so determined to undermine Messi's achievements. I don't really see many people opening threads to prove that Messi is better than Maradona or Pele, but we see people opening numerous threads in a bid to "prove" that Messi is not as good as Maradona. So what? Maradona was a great player. Pele was a great player. Messi is a great player. Ronaldo was a great player. Zidane was a great player... Even Okocha, Gearge Weah, Roger Milla were great players.

[ohsee]

So what? Players develop/mature at different ages. That adds nothing to the debate. Didier Drogba was still playing in French division two in the early to mid-20s before exploding into the player we know know... Zinedine Zidane was an average player until he exploded at Juventus in his mid-20s. Mikel was one of the best players in the U-20 World Cup until Mourinho "polished" him into an average side-way passer...

What I really don't understand is why people are so determined to undermine Messi's achievements. I don't really see many people opening threads to prove that Messi is better than Maradona or Pele, but we see people opening numerous threads in a bid to "prove" that Messi is not as good as Maradona. So what? Maradona was a great player. Pele was a great player. Messi is a great player. Ronaldo was a great player. Zidane was a great player... Even Okocha, Gearge Weah, Roger Milla were great players.

Senor Vincente Del Opaksologico,
You don come again. As I often demonstrate on Rant and Rave, you no get logic. I will leave the rest of your nonsense yarns and concentrate on the one that bugs me the most (see highlighted).

My friend, the debate is, "Who is the GOAT, Pele, Maradona, or Messi?" As I pointed out in other threads, when we are considering greatness, we examine and tally EXTRAORDINARY accomplishments. If most outstanding players begin to show their abilities from 23 to 28, and you find one that begins to show his at 17, AND CONTINUES TO SHOW IT THROUGHOUT HIS CAREER, would you not agree that this person is a serious outlier who deserves to be regarded with amazement and wonder because of this EXTRAORDINARY deed?

According to your typically opaksical logic, we should say, "So what?" if a 14 year old suddenly solved the Grant Unified Theory of Physics that has eluded the best scientists since nineteen kiridim. Because that is the equivalent of what Pele did in the field of soccer when he burst on the professional scene at 16 and won the scoring title in the Paulista League, while only playing half the games; was taken to the World Cup the next year while injured, recovered mid-tournament, and went on to be the second highest scorer in the entire tourney, scoring some absolutely spectacular goals in the process, while helping his team win THE BIG ONE. My friend, if you think about it, these incredible acts at the very beginning of his career, these acts ALONE should put Pele at the very top of the listing for Greatest Of All Time; and when you consider that his entire playing career is filled with such EXTRAORDINARY achievements, you will realize that it is no contest at all: Pele is, BY FAR, the greatest of all time.

Oya, carry on. Continue your usual opaks. It is to be expected.

[ohsee]

Ohsee,

Bros, you mention one thing that made me think. You know, I had not even thought about a player's ability in the air and that was what Pele also had that neither Maradona nor Messi can even be mentioned in that category. You know, when thinking about Pele in the air the only comparable names in that category would be likes of Batistuta and Ronaldo (Real Madrid). Fact is Pele was a COMPLETE footballer. He did not need others to make him great. HE MADE OTHERS GREAT. Enough for the wise.

Kpom. This is what my Uncle Ohsee has been saying
whenever this argument crops up. Pele is just simply
in another stratosphere.

EII, note that Pele aged 17 scored a HATTRICK in the
WC semis and that added two more in the finals. At that
age Maradona was getting sent off in the preliminary
rounds and Messi was still taking growth hormones.

Ebyboy my guy,
Kpom. Just need to add the minor correction that at 17, or to be more accurate, 18, Maradona was watching the 1978 World Cup being played in his country Argentina, on the television in him mama bedroom. In other words, while Brasil Coach Vincente Feola elected to take injured 17 year old Pele to the World Cup in an era in which there were no substitutions, and played him the minute doctors gave the wunderkind the go-ahead, Argentina Coach Cesar Menotti dropped a fully fit Maradona from the 1978 World Cup squad that went on to win it, thinking him not good enough.

By the way, I first saw Maradona play for Argentina in FIFA's 1980 Gold Cup of Champions played in Uruguay, and I thought Menotti made the absolutely correct decision to leave him out in 1978; in the 1982 World Cup, where Maradona was a total bust, the rightness of that decision was confirmed completely in my mind.