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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:13 pm 
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Tobi17 wrote:
The actual question nobody has bothered to ask or ponder upon is why French African players born home or abroad always turn out to be world class in the long run, while the English speaking African kids either end up as below average or decent at best? case in point the only decent English born Nigerian player we've seen so far is Dele Alli... Ghana has Welbeck. Meanwhile countries like DRC, Ivory Coast, Guinea, Cameroon etc always export their best talents to their former colonial territories like Belgium and France...makes you wonder why Anglophone African exports aren't as good as their Francophone counterparts.

I think it has to do with immigration laws. Until the sixties most of francophone Africa was represented in the French parliament. As such it was relatively easy for someone from francophone Africa to emigrate to France. There are many more Africans in France than in the UK


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 15, 2018 11:20 pm 
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Tobi17 wrote:
The actual question nobody has bothered to ask or ponder upon is why French African players born home or abroad always turn out to be world class in the long run, while the English speaking African kids either end up as below average or decent at best? case in point the only decent English born Nigerian player we've seen so far is Dele Alli... Ghana has Welbeck. Meanwhile countries like DRC, Ivory Coast, Guinea, Cameroon etc always export their best talents to their former colonial territories like Belgium and France...makes you wonder why Anglophone African exports aren't as good as their Francophone counterparts.

You guys are always overanalyzing things with your conjecture. This has nothing to do with French or English Africans. And why are you comparing the experience or exposure of someone like Dele Alli that plays for underachieving team like Tottenham to players like Mbappe( PSG), Kante ( Chelsea), Pogba ( Man U) Umtiti( Barcelona ) and Matuidi( Juventus)?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:09 am 
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camex wrote:
Tobi17 wrote:
The actual question nobody has bothered to ask or ponder upon is why French African players born home or abroad always turn out to be world class in the long run, while the English speaking African kids either end up as below average or decent at best? case in point the only decent English born Nigerian player we've seen so far is Dele Alli... Ghana has Welbeck. Meanwhile countries like DRC, Ivory Coast, Guinea, Cameroon etc always export their best talents to their former colonial territories like Belgium and France...makes you wonder why Anglophone African exports aren't as good as their Francophone counterparts.

I think it has to do with immigration laws. Until the sixties most of francophone Africa was represented in the French parliament. As such it was relatively easy for someone from francophone Africa to emigrate to France. There are many more Africans in France than in the UK


Don’t think one can say African payers born in French ex colonies are better than ones born in English ex colonies

However what is beyond doubt is African and black players born in France seem to be better than ones born in England. I am sure there are several reasons including the possibility that more migrated to France than England. So France hasan advantage when it comes to the nos game.

But for the key reason look at the football DNA of both nations. France has been a more cultured football nation for years and has produced better players than England. They also have excellent football schools that have produced enough top players to supply starting 11s for other African nations.

From what I’ve seen England has a plan to produce better players and the results seem positive. So perhaps we’ll start seeing betterblack players from there quite soon

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:23 am 
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France has a better academy for training footballers. 5 of Moroccan players came out of the academy that is France, the same academy produced Mpabbe.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:03 am 
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realtrouble wrote:
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Opinion World Cup 2018
French system shapes success of Les Bleus’ African talent
Sons of immigrants in national team are products of France — in ways good and bad


Simon Kuper in Moscow JULY 13, 2018 Print this page20
In daily life, I’m a football dad living in Paris. Most weekends, I get up early and trek with my children to some freezing sports complex in the banlieues, the city’s suburbs. 

The venue — which might be the Stade Karl Marx, in formerly communist-voting Villejuif — is typically fringed by dreary apartment blocks. Both our team and the opposition are almost always a mix of black, white and brown kids. The coaches, “éducateurs” who have followed courses and take themselves seriously, command from the touchline, while parents are corralled behind a fence and encouraged to keep quiet. But we do get to watch some excellent children’s football.

Half the French players likely to feature in Sunday’s World Cup final  against Croatia come from poor banlieues of Paris or Lyon. Kylian Mbappé and the entire starting midfield of Paul Pogba, N’Golo Kanté and Blaise Matuidi are Parisians. Samuel Umtiti and frequent substitutes Nabil Fekir and Corentin Tolisso are from the Lyon region. 

There are some exceptions: keeper Hugo Lloris grew up in Nice, the son of a Catalan banker dad and a lawyer mum who wanted him to play tennis. But mostly, this World Cup confirms that Greater Paris in particular is global football’s best talent pool.

That applies beyond Les Bleus. Of 15 Paris-born players at the World Cup, only seven are in France’s squad, notes sports sociologist Darko Dukic. The others played for Senegal, Morocco, Tunisia and Portugal, home countries of their immigrant parents. 

Dukic notes that the past five World Cups have featured 60 Paris-born participants
; Buenos Aires, in second place, had 50. Then there are Parisians who weren’t even at this year’s tournament: Algeria’s Riyad Mahrez, from the banlieue Sarcelles, just joined Manchester City from Leicester for £60m.


N'Golo Kanté, Kylian Mbappé and Paul Pogba: all were raised by immigrant parents in the banlieus of Paris © Reuters
Some say these players aren’t French but African. The assertion is made both by some Africans, eager to claim these talents for their continent, and by French ethno-nationalists such as Jean-Marie Le Pen. 

When Le Pen once complained about black players, France’s black longtime full-back Lilian Thuram retorted: “Personally, I don’t know what he’s talking about. I’m not black, I’m French.” 

Yet French sons of African immigrants are better footballers than any raised in Africa. That is because they are products of France — in ways good and bad.

There is only football. Whether at school or in the neighbourhood, everyone will play football. And that helps people to not stay in the quartier doing nothing, or doing stupid things


Most French banlieues, though not the hellholes of foreign imagination, are pretty drab. Mbappé’s hometown of Bondy, a bus ride from rich Paris, looks as if someone plonked a Soviet town on top of an ancient French village. The old church survives but Bondy is dominated by fast-food joints and fading 1960s apartment blocks (one of them adorned with a large mural of Mbappé). 

Local kids generally have few choices of entertainment. In banlieues, Pogba told me, “there is only football. Whether at school or in the neighbourhood, everyone will play football. And that helps people to not stay in the quartier doing nothing, or doing stupid things.” 

Their parents, seeing few other routes for advancement, dream of their sons becoming professional footballers. Pogba’s father, a Guinean immigrant, pumped up footballs as hard as rocks because he thought it would improve his sons’ shooting. All three became pros. 

[The French system then refines all this talent. Every banlieue has state-subsidised sports clubs with qualified coaches. The focus is more on producing good footballers than on winning youth matches. At AS Bondy, where his father was the youth coach, Mbappé usually played with kids two years older than him, whereas if the club had kept him in his own age group they could have won more titles.

The best kids are sent to France’s central academy, Clairefontaine, and scouted by clubs from around Europe, whose representatives roam Parisian fields every weekend. (Manchester United spotted the adolescent Mbappé, but the club’s then manager Louis van Gaal refused to sign him.) The set-up is similar in Brussels, hometown of several of the Belgians beaten by Les Bleus in the semi-final. 

If France win the World Cup, it will be a triumph not for Africa but for the French system. 


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Rubbish, never want to give Africans any credit. These kids were also motivated by their African parents. If the French system alone is to be credited, then why didn't they achieve such heights with white French men! Nonsense again! George Weah is a greater footballer than any fooballer France has ever produced -- black or white; he was groomed in Africa. Didn't Senegal beat France in a world cup before?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:07 am 
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bepanda wrote:
I know this discussion cannot happen without the political angle to it.
In 1998, the French team adopted the Black-Blanc-Beur mantra.Zidane, who led France ... was a Beur.
This team was profoundly criticized by then Jean Marie LePen. LePen was Trump in France ...
Now, the world is in the middle of attempts by Whites to "reclaim their countries". Thanks to Trump/Bannon via Vladimir Putin.
Who do you think Putin/Trump would be supporting?
A team made of children of Immigrants (who knows how some of them got to France !!!) or a team full of Whites (not their fault of course)?
And the game is being played in Russia !!!
Call me conspiracy theorist ... but shades of Jesse Owens ...Will Moscow be the new Berlin (1936)?
After Jesse Owen won his medals, he returned to an America that didn't really want people who looked like him ...
Well, at least Macron is President. Would have been weird if ... LePen (who Macron defeated) became President of France...
Vladimir tried very hard to get Marie LePen elected in France against Macron. And we all know ... who Trump/Bannon support !!!
History has a way to ... announce itself.


Putin might have wanted Le Pen to win not because of his racial views but for Putin's own security interests. Russia is a very diverse country. If Putin was like Trump and Le Pen, he would not open the largest mosque in Europe in Russia. Some of you swallow too much American propaganda. Putin is a nationalist but not a white supremacist. Do you know today the Croatians fans were chanting SLAVA UKRAINE against Russia. These Croatians and Ukrainians have ancestors who fought for the Nazis.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:11 am 
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Benedict Iroha wrote:
France has a better academy for training footballers. 5 of Moroccan players came out of the academy that is France, the same academy produced Mpabbe.


Same products of such academies that lost to Senegal in 2002. France benefits from the fact that the Africans don't come from one single country. Just imagine Ghana and Nigeria combine to put up a team in the world cup? They will go far. African teams that go to the world cup may represent Africa but they are not representative of the whole of Africa. The French team comes close to that. Moreover, these blacks get fairer officiating because they are playing for an Oyinbo country.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 5:22 am 
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Okonkwo in da house wrote:
Benedict Iroha wrote:
France has a better academy for training footballers. 5 of Moroccan players came out of the academy that is France, the same academy produced Mpabbe.


Same products of such academies that lost to Senegal in 2002. France benefits from the fact that the Africans don't come from one single country. Just imagine Ghana and Nigeria combine to put up a team in the world cup? They will go far. African teams that go to the world cup may represent Africa but they are not representative of the whole of Africa. The French team comes close to that. Moreover, these blacks get fairer officiating because they are playing for an Oyinbo country.


If you like put all the African teams together.........................If you are not on the same page forget it.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:19 am 
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EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote:
It just didn't feel right to me,Yes they were born there,they only know France and all that stuff. Something about it just don't look right.


but it show how receptive France is as a country.... we have more Africans in England, how many did they accept to play for them....

Is like I saw a name in the France squad like Areola or so... it sound Nigerian (Yoruba) name.... in general, there are about 14 African players in the French squad.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 8:25 am 
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I think the article hints at but understates an obvious fact: poverty.

I'm not too familiar with the plight of the African kid in France's deprived suburbs first hand, but if the level of poverty is such that football is seen as the only way out, then maybe it is the same recipe that was responsible for the conveyor belt of Brazilian talent coming through endlessly up until the 80s.

Pogba said it in the article,“there is only football. Whether at school or in the neighbourhood, everyone will play football. And that helps people to not stay in the quartier doing nothing, or doing stupid things.”

So the raw talent is in abundance and THEN the organised system kicks in - which is the difference between the African kid in France and his equivalent on the African continent.

In the UK, it might be the African kid has other choices and the level of poverty might be far less. Here, kids of the unemployed living in the highrise estates on welfare still have their Xboxes and Playstations and maybe football isn't such a release for them. And not to sound condescending to other Africans in France, but even low-income African families in the UK push their kids more towards academia. Sport is 'okay', "but read your book first". Whether its the legacy from their Anglophone African countries (Naija, Ghana) or the welfare system at play, or even a combination....who knows?

At the end of the day, its still an institutionalized racism at play out there in France, quite literally. :idea:

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 9:15 am 
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Damunk wrote:
I think the article hints at but understates an obvious fact: poverty.

I'm not too familiar with the plight of the African kid in France's deprived suburbs first hand, but if the level of poverty is such that football is seen as the only way out, then maybe it is the same recipe that was responsible for the conveyor belt of Brazilian talent coming through endlessly up until the 80s.

Pogba said it in the article,“there is only football. Whether at school or in the neighbourhood, everyone will play football. And that helps people to not stay in the quartier doing nothing, or doing stupid things.”

So the raw talent is in abundance and THEN the organised system kicks in - which is the difference between the African kid in France and his equivalent on the African continent.

In the UK, it might be the African kid has other choices and the level of poverty might be far less. Here, kids of the unemployed living in the highrise estates on welfare still have their Xboxes and Playstations and maybe football isn't such a release for them. And not to sound condescending to other Africans in France, but even low-income African families in the UK push their kids more towards academia. Sport is 'okay', "but read your book first". Whether its the legacy from their Anglophone African countries (Naija, Ghana) or the welfare system at play, or even a combination....who knows?

At the end of the day, its still an institutionalized racism at play out there in France, quite literally. :idea:

Do you have any data on how africans are doing in France and in the UK academically? And what is the typical background of an african immigrant in France versus the UK? This is important because it is another factor that affects children choices. For example, when I was in Canada, I felt that african immigrants there were academically more accomplished in average than in the US. The immigration system in Canada that favours educated immigrants may have played a role. In France before 1960, much of francophone was part of France and it was so not difficult to emigrate there.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:11 am 
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camex wrote:
Damunk wrote:
I think the article hints at but understates an obvious fact: poverty.

I'm not too familiar with the plight of the African kid in France's deprived suburbs first hand, but if the level of poverty is such that football is seen as the only way out, then maybe it is the same recipe that was responsible for the conveyor belt of Brazilian talent coming through endlessly up until the 80s.

Pogba said it in the article,“there is only football. Whether at school or in the neighbourhood, everyone will play football. And that helps people to not stay in the quartier doing nothing, or doing stupid things.”

So the raw talent is in abundance and THEN the organised system kicks in - which is the difference between the African kid in France and his equivalent on the African continent.

In the UK, it might be the African kid has other choices and the level of poverty might be far less. Here, kids of the unemployed living in the highrise estates on welfare still have their Xboxes and Playstations and maybe football isn't such a release for them. And not to sound condescending to other Africans in France, but even low-income African families in the UK push their kids more towards academia. Sport is 'okay', "but read your book first". Whether its the legacy from their Anglophone African countries (Naija, Ghana) or the welfare system at play, or even a combination....who knows?

At the end of the day, its still an institutionalized racism at play out there in France, quite literally. :idea:

Do you have any data on how africans are doing in France and in the UK academically?.
There are stats available for African kids' performance in the UK (though you have to search far and wide) but I have no idea whether they are available for the kids in France.
But kids of African descent are one of, if not the highest achieving subgroups academically. Specifically, West African kids were idntified as being exceptional achievers. This information is often masked by lumping all black kids into the 'Afro-Carribean' (or 'black') category with no breakdown and no acknowledgment of the very distinct cultural and social peculiarities within that group.


Quote:
And what is the typical background of an african immigrant in France versus the UK? This is important because it is another factor that affects children choices.
You are right, its very important and may explain a lot. Unfortunately my knowledge of the African community in France, its history, socio-dynamics and French society as a whole is very limited.
You might be in a better position to educate us.
In the UK, there is a relatively high educational level in the African immigrant community and this has been identified in studies over time.

Quote:
For example, when I was in Canada, I felt that african immigrants there were academically more accomplished in average than in the US. The immigration system in Canada that favours educated immigrants may have played a role. In France before 1960, much of francophone was part of France and it was so not difficult to emigrate there
This might be key. Plus it also depends on whether there was the realistic possibility of upward social mobility in France for immigrants as has always been the case in the UK and, from what you say, Canada.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:21 am 
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Damunk wrote:
camex wrote:
Damunk wrote:
I think the article hints at but understates an obvious fact: poverty.

I'm not too familiar with the plight of the African kid in France's deprived suburbs first hand, but if the level of poverty is such that football is seen as the only way out, then maybe it is the same recipe that was responsible for the conveyor belt of Brazilian talent coming through endlessly up until the 80s.

Pogba said it in the article,“there is only football. Whether at school or in the neighbourhood, everyone will play football. And that helps people to not stay in the quartier doing nothing, or doing stupid things.”

So the raw talent is in abundance and THEN the organised system kicks in - which is the difference between the African kid in France and his equivalent on the African continent.

In the UK, it might be the African kid has other choices and the level of poverty might be far less. Here, kids of the unemployed living in the highrise estates on welfare still have their Xboxes and Playstations and maybe football isn't such a release for them. And not to sound condescending to other Africans in France, but even low-income African families in the UK push their kids more towards academia. Sport is 'okay', "but read your book first". Whether its the legacy from their Anglophone African countries (Naija, Ghana) or the welfare system at play, or even a combination....who knows?

At the end of the day, its still an institutionalized racism at play out there in France, quite literally. :idea:

Do you have any data on how africans are doing in France and in the UK academically?.
There are stats available for African kids' performance in the UK (though you have to search far and wide) but I have no idea whether they are available for the kids in France.
But kids of African descent are one of, if not the highest achieving subgroups academically. Specifically, West African kids were idntified as being exceptional achievers. This information is often masked by lumping all black kids into the 'Afro-Carribean' (or 'black') category with no breakdown and no acknowledgment of the very distinct cultural and social peculiarities within that group.


Quote:
And what is the typical background of an african immigrant in France versus the UK? This is important because it is another factor that affects children choices.
You are right, its very important and may explain a lot. Unfortunately my knowledge of the African community in France, its history, socio-dynamics and French society as a whole is very limited.
You might be in a better position to educate us.
In the UK, there is a relatively high educational level in the African immigrant community and this has been identified in studies over time.

Quote:
For example, when I was in Canada, I felt that african immigrants there were academically more accomplished in average than in the US. The immigration system in Canada that favours educated immigrants may have played a role. In France before 1960, much of francophone was part of France and it was so not difficult to emigrate there
This might be key. Plus it also depends on whether there was the realistic possibility of upward social mobility in France for immigrants as has always been the case in the UK and, from what you say, Canada.

I read an analysis on college graduates per race in France and I recall that chinese immigrants had the highest number per capita, then whites, then africans. So academically africans are not doing well. My cousin who did his undergraduate in France told me that north african were doing better, at least at the top, than west africans. But interpreting the data is more complicated. One of the top ten richest men in France,Patrick Drahi, was born in Morocco, but he is jewish,and has a israeli passport. Then also my cousin who lives in Paris, told me that in recent years there had been a backlash against north african on the job market.
Recently there were an article on the number of nigerian professionals emigrating to the UK. I have never heard of a similar trend in francophone Africa. So I suspect, there are fewer african who are children of professionals in France.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:29 am 
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France exports more black players to elite clubs in Europe than England. Most English players black or white play at home. Countries who export players to top class clubs oversea are better than players who play at home.

England will win the world cup when English players start commanding shirts at Bayern, Barcelona, Juve etc.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:40 am 
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Purity wrote:
France exports more black players to elite clubs in Europe than England. Most English players black or white play at home. Countries who export players to top class clubs oversea are better than players who play at home.

England will win the world cup when English players start commanding shirts at Bayern, Barcelona, Juve etc.

How did Spain win the world cup?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 10:43 am 
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Purity wrote:
France exports more black players to elite clubs in Europe than England. Most English players black or white play at home. Countries who export players to top class clubs oversea are better than players who play at home.

England will win the world cup when English players start commanding shirts at Bayern, Barcelona, Juve etc.
A few younger English kids recognize this and are taking their destinies into their own hands by taking playing opportunities abroad.
One of such players is Ademola Lukman

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 12:20 pm 
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Damunk wrote:
Purity wrote:
France exports more black players to elite clubs in Europe than England. Most English players black or white play at home. Countries who export players to top class clubs oversea are better than players who play at home.

England will win the world cup when English players start commanding shirts at Bayern, Barcelona, Juve etc.
A few younger English kids recognize this and are taking their destinies into their own hands by taking playing opportunities abroad.
One of such players is Ademola Lukman


Add Sancho at Dortmund

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:33 pm 
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Yes English players need to go outside their comfort zones and play with the best outside the UK

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 1:51 pm 
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Benedict Iroha wrote:
France has a better academy for training footballers. 5 of Moroccan players came out of the academy that is France, the same academy produced Mpabbe.



Simple and short.

This stuff is 30 years in the making!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footba ... ctory.html

Some of you people think its to wake up one day and run your mouth gboa gboa and world cup will be handed to your lazy arses, unplanning. :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 2:00 pm 
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metalalloy wrote:
Benedict Iroha wrote:
France has a better academy for training footballers. 5 of Moroccan players came out of the academy that is France, the same academy produced Mpabbe.



Simple and short.

This stuff is 30 years in the making!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/footba ... ctory.html

Some of you people think its to wake up one day and run your mouth gboa gboa and world cup will be handed to your lazy arses, unplanning. :lol:


Yep, also dislike the 'lazy' plan of the Pinnicks of this world to basically benefit off the scraps of the planning of other more serious countries rather than develop ours. Try and 'steal' the ones that don't make it to be stars in these countries, we will always be behind the eight ball and never be elite by taking others leftovers.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:37 pm 
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I was wondering why Europeans don't do it with other players from their neighboring countries. How come we don't see a European team dominated by players from another countries. The question is legit! Maybe African nations should start recruiting from other nations. We already have a working formula from France! Or is our ego to big to allow it to happen!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 3:42 pm 
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Calculator wrote:
I was wondering why you Europeans don't do it with other players from their neighboring countries. How come we don't see a European team dominated by players from another European countries. The question is legitimate! Maybe African nations should start recruiting from other nations. We already have a working formula from France! Or is our ego to big to allow it to happen!


No sir...they do it all the time

Switzerland was full of Albanian players and guys from the Balkans. I don't even know if they had more than a handful of native players in their squad.

Austria is the same.

There are many Polish and Turkish players that have played for Germany over the years.There are also many more European players playing for France. Hernandez is Spanish, Kocieny is Polish.

The English always have a handful of Irish, Welsh and Scots playing for them. Gerrard, Rooney have Irish roots...Owen has Welsh roots.

This is not new.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 16, 2018 4:12 pm 
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Local rivalries would prevent that. Do you honestly think a kid brought up in south London would agree to play for Germany?! (remember Owen Hargreaves who grew up in Germany - but still chose to play for England) Ditto, Griezmann chose to play for France even though he lived most of his life in Spain.

Or can you imagine a kid born in Lagos going to play for Benin Republic or Cameroon?

Calculator wrote:
I was wondering why Europeans don't do it with other players from their neighboring countries. How come we don't see a European team dominated by players from another countries. The question is legit! Maybe African nations should start recruiting from other nations. We already have a working formula from France! Or is our ego to big to allow it to happen!


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