Welcome to the EPL Señor Guardiola...

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Re: Welcome to the EPL Señor Guardiola...

Post by theYemster »

cic old boy wrote: Dope can't be an advantage if everyone is doing it! Where's the advantage?

Manure failing despite a similar budget means there's more to City's success than the budget!
But not everyone is doing it, and not everyone doing it is doping to the same extent. United aren't the only ones competing against City. So United screwing up is more about their own ineptitude than the fact that they (like City) didn't have an advantage. They did, they just called at capitalising on it.

cic old boy wrote: t appears you don't understand FFP. Everyone is allowed to spend. Uefa is looking at whether City inflated their earnings via govt sponsorship. It doesn't mean City spent significantly more than the others. City can't compete with clubs like Manure in terms of pure commercial appeal.
I know enough. You can't spend more than you make and do in order to get to spend more they inflated the earnings. So yeah, like I said, I know enough. If as you claim, a higher budget isn't an advantage they wouldn't have inflated their earnings.
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Re: Welcome to the EPL Señor Guardiola...

Post by txj »

cic old boy wrote:
theYemster wrote:https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer ... 3?mode=amp

At Wembley, City brought on three substitutes – Kevin de Bruyne, Leroy Sané and John Stones – each of whom would have been the best player in Watford’s team. There’s no magic or mystery about why their squad is so strong. They have a net transfer spend of more than £1.2 billion over the 11 seasons since the 2008 takeover. That’s almost 50 per cent more than their closest rival over that period – the Qatar-funded PSG – and half a billion pounds more than the team in third place, Manchester United.


Football has not seen anything like this before. The closest comparison is with Chelsea after the 2003 Abramovich takeover, but their spending was nowhere near as sustained or comprehensive. Yes, in the 11 seasons from 2003-4 to 2014-15 Chelsea were football’s biggest spenders, but their net outlay of £751 million was only 10 per cent more than City’s in the same period, even though City spent very little between 2003 and 2007. Chelsea’s net spend in those 11 seasons was 64 per cent of the total combined net outlay of Real Madrid and Barcelona, whereas City’s since 2008 is more than Real Madrid’s and Barcelona’s put together.
Comparing City and Chelski in the early Roman days doesn't tell the whole story as transfer fees are more inflated now than then.

Guardiola didn't buy KDB. KDB was in Chelski's books and their coach decided he wasn't good enough. If Pep was the coach at Chelski, KDB would most likely still be a Chelski player. So budgets don't tell the whole story. Despite all the money spent on Stones (grossly inflated b/c he is English), he hasn't held down a regular place and cheaper players like Kompany and Otamendi are usually preferred to him. Which again shows that money is not the whole story.
Agreed; money doesn't tell the whole story. But in the hands of experts, it can be an overwhelming advantage.

In this case, it is overwhelming. And its not just the spend under Guardiola, it's importantly the preparatory spending by Soriano and Txiki, ahead of his arrival...

When you can afford to buy the Barcelona starting GK, and them replace him with an Ederson when it doesn't work, you are on another level.

However, to be clear, for me it doesn't take anything away from Pep's achievements. However much you spend, you still have to make it work. And he has not just made it work, but elevated the game to new heights....
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Re: Welcome to the EPL Señor Guardiola...

Post by cic old boy »

theYemster wrote: But not everyone is doing it, and not everyone doing it is doping to the same extent. United aren't the only ones competing against City. So United screwing up is more about their own ineptitude than the fact that they (like City) didn't have an advantage. They did, they just called at capitalising on it.

I know enough. You can't spend more than you make and do in order to get to spend more they inflated the earnings. So yeah, like I said, I know enough. If as you claim, a higher budget isn't an advantage they wouldn't have inflated their earnings.
I gave you a list of clubs with City’s spending power. Klopp complained about £90m spent on Pogba and had to be reminded of it when he blew £80m on Van Dijk and £70m on his goalie. So City is in an elite group of teams where money is no object. Even they pulled out of the bidding for Van Dijk. The advantage City have with money is neutralised with other big clubs. It is only an advantage in relation to clubs without that sort of spending power. But Ajax still knocked Juve out of the CL despite having a squad that cost less than Juve paid for Fake Ronaldo.
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Re: Welcome to the EPL Señor Guardiola...

Post by cic old boy »

txj wrote:
Agreed; money doesn't tell the whole story. But in the hands of experts, it can be an overwhelming advantage.

In this case, it is overwhelming. And its not just the spend under Guardiola, it's importantly the preparatory spending by Soriano and Txiki, ahead of his arrival...

When you can afford to buy the Barcelona starting GK, and them replace him with an Ederson when it doesn't work, you are on another level.

However, to be clear, for me it doesn't take anything away from Pep's achievements. However much you spend, you still have to make it work. And he has not just made it work, but elevated the game to new heights....
So in essence it is the expertise of Pep and the management team at City that is making a difference not the money. This is b/c City are not the only club that can blow millions on mistakes. Liverpool had Mignolet and Karius and still broke the world record for keepers when those two made too many blunders.
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Re: Welcome to the EPL Señor Guardiola...

Post by marko »

and Leicester won the league with a squad worth 54 million pounds :sneaky:
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Re: Welcome to the EPL Señor Guardiola...

Post by theYemster »

txj wrote:
cic old boy wrote:
theYemster wrote:https://www.irishtimes.com/sport/soccer ... 3?mode=amp

At Wembley, City brought on three substitutes – Kevin de Bruyne, Leroy Sané and John Stones – each of whom would have been the best player in Watford’s team. There’s no magic or mystery about why their squad is so strong. They have a net transfer spend of more than £1.2 billion over the 11 seasons since the 2008 takeover. That’s almost 50 per cent more than their closest rival over that period – the Qatar-funded PSG – and half a billion pounds more than the team in third place, Manchester United.


Football has not seen anything like this before. The closest comparison is with Chelsea after the 2003 Abramovich takeover, but their spending was nowhere near as sustained or comprehensive. Yes, in the 11 seasons from 2003-4 to 2014-15 Chelsea were football’s biggest spenders, but their net outlay of £751 million was only 10 per cent more than City’s in the same period, even though City spent very little between 2003 and 2007. Chelsea’s net spend in those 11 seasons was 64 per cent of the total combined net outlay of Real Madrid and Barcelona, whereas City’s since 2008 is more than Real Madrid’s and Barcelona’s put together.
Comparing City and Chelski in the early Roman days doesn't tell the whole story as transfer fees are more inflated now than then.

Guardiola didn't buy KDB. KDB was in Chelski's books and their coach decided he wasn't good enough. If Pep was the coach at Chelski, KDB would most likely still be a Chelski player. So budgets don't tell the whole story. Despite all the money spent on Stones (grossly inflated b/c he is English), he hasn't held down a regular place and cheaper players like Kompany and Otamendi are usually preferred to him. Which again shows that money is not the whole story.
Agreed; money doesn't tell the whole story. But in the hands of experts, it can be an overwhelming advantage.

In this case, it is overwhelming. And its not just the spend under Guardiola, it's importantly the preparatory spending by Soriano and Txiki, ahead of his arrival...

When you can afford to buy the Barcelona starting GK, and them replace him with an Ederson when it doesn't work, you are on another level.

However, to be clear, for me it doesn't take anything away from Pep's achievements. However much you spend, you still have to make it work. And he has not just made it work, but elevated the game to new heights....
I don't know why he's so defensive about this. I didn't opine on Pep's coaching abilities because great coaches will do what he did. However, all I said was his records at those teams should be put in context. And they should. Had he achieved it with Valencia, Schalke and Spurs then I'd view it much differently.
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Re: Welcome to the EPL Señor Guardiola...

Post by theYemster »

cic old boy wrote:
txj wrote:
Agreed; money doesn't tell the whole story. But in the hands of experts, it can be an overwhelming advantage.

In this case, it is overwhelming. And its not just the spend under Guardiola, it's importantly the preparatory spending by Soriano and Txiki, ahead of his arrival...

When you can afford to buy the Barcelona starting GK, and them replace him with an Ederson when it doesn't work, you are on another level.

However, to be clear, for me it doesn't take anything away from Pep's achievements. However much you spend, you still have to make it work. And he has not just made it work, but elevated the game to new heights....
So in essence it is the expertise of Pep and the management team at City that is making a difference not the money. This is b/c City are not the only club that can blow millions on mistakes. Liverpool had Mignolet and Karius and still broke the world record for keepers when those two made too many blunders.
If that's the case then why don't they accomplish what they did while operating on Fulham's budget?

My guess, it's a combination of Pep's abilities AND the huge budget City have been operating with.
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Re: Welcome to the EPL Señor Guardiola...

Post by Mr. Piffington »

theYemster wrote:
cic old boy wrote:
txj wrote:
Agreed; money doesn't tell the whole story. But in the hands of experts, it can be an overwhelming advantage.

In this case, it is overwhelming. And its not just the spend under Guardiola, it's importantly the preparatory spending by Soriano and Txiki, ahead of his arrival...

When you can afford to buy the Barcelona starting GK, and them replace him with an Ederson when it doesn't work, you are on another level.

However, to be clear, for me it doesn't take anything away from Pep's achievements. However much you spend, you still have to make it work. And he has not just made it work, but elevated the game to new heights....
So in essence it is the expertise of Pep and the management team at City that is making a difference not the money. This is b/c City are not the only club that can blow millions on mistakes. Liverpool had Mignolet and Karius and still broke the world record for keepers when those two made too many blunders.
If that's the case then why don't they accomplish what they did while operating on Fulham's budget?

My guess, it's a combination of Pep's abilities AND the huge budget City have been operating with.
I'm sure that's what cicob is trying to say. It's not solely about one over the other they are both factors. Money alone won't make a team start playing the way City are playing right now but you also need to get quality players who can capable of playing in such a demanding system.
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Re: Welcome to the EPL Señor Guardiola...

Post by cic old boy »

theYemster wrote: I don't know why he's so defensive about this. I didn't opine on Pep's coaching abilities because great coaches will do what he did. However, all I said was his records at those teams should be put in context. And they should. Had he achieved it with Valencia, Schalke and Spurs then I'd view it much differently.
I’m not “defensive”. I’m factual – countering your biased opinion with facts. The fact is that Man City’s budget is similar to that of about 10 elite clubs in Europe. Manure is a close example in terms of sharing a city. So if the budget provides the context for City’s success, why are Manure 6th on a similar budget? The explanations for Manure’s failure then demonstrate that coaching, management, planning, etc are more adequate explanations. Pep has only had 4 coaching jobs. The 1st one was not at the same level as the last 3 and he was successful at his 1st one – gaining promotion for Barca B. But you choose to ignore that and focus on success on a huge budget, while trying to explain away those that failed with a huge budget.
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theYemster wrote: If that's the case then why don't they accomplish what they did while operating on Fulham's budget?

My guess, it's a combination of Pep's abilities AND the huge budget City have been operating with.
Many of you don’t understand the game. For e.g. you need a certain type of player to play a possession-based game. I have watched a lot of Championship football this season and it can be an eyesore watching players that can’t control a ball. Players with better mastery of the ball tend to play at a higher level and tend to command more in transfer fees and wages. Kelechi, for e.g, didn’t cost City a fortune. He was given a chance, but his lack of mastery of the ball meant he didn’t take his chance. He has ended up as a squad player at Leicester. If he was better than his current level, he would have saved City a lot of money. Look at Tosin Adarabioyo – a City academy product. He is 21 and was loaned out to West Brom where he didn’t stand out. At 21 Busquets was starting for Barca. If Tosin steps up, City won’t need to spend millions on a central defender. Even clubs sponsored by rich Arabs would rather their academy players get into the first team than shell out millions for big stars. But they won’t stick to the kids if the kids are not good enough. Fulham don’t even do that either.
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Re: Welcome to the EPL Señor Guardiola...

Post by kajifu »

cic old boy wrote:
theYemster wrote: I don't know why he's so defensive about this. I didn't opine on Pep's coaching abilities because great coaches will do what he did. However, all I said was his records at those teams should be put in context. And they should. Had he achieved it with Valencia, Schalke and Spurs then I'd view it much differently.
I’m not “defensive”. I’m factual – countering your biased opinion with facts. The fact is that Man City’s budget is similar to that of about 10 elite clubs in Europe. Manure is a close example in terms of sharing a city. So if the budget provides the context for City’s success, why are Manure 6th on a similar budget? The explanations for Manure’s failure then demonstrate that coaching, management, planning, etc are more adequate explanations. Pep has only had 4 coaching jobs. The 1st one was not at the same level as the last 3 and he was successful at his 1st one – gaining promotion for Barca B. But you choose to ignore that and focus on success on a huge budget, while trying to explain away those that failed with a huge budget.
Oga Cic you are been defensive here,how was city doing before Pep took over?You make it sound like City was some mid table team that he transform.yes coaching,management and planning etc will demonstrate that not only buying can do it.City under Pelle was a fantastic team,he won the league in his first season,took them to CL semi,is not like Pep has won something with City that has not been done before.City was playing one of the best attacking football under Pelle.
Ask your self how come since Pep left Barca,they have won as many titles without him?Also how come he was not able to match the previous coach at Bayern that he took over from?
Since you ask why are Manu 6th in similar budget,because they change management,the year they kept a manager all season they finish behind City in second because City outspend them.Now, explain why Spurs,Ajax and Liverpool with less budget doing better than City in CL?
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Post by Coach »

@Kaji, Pep is an inheritance merchant, how many of his treble winning starting XI did he sign? Many were there before he arrived? Hence the argument of fortuitous inheritance. As for the treble which predecessors had failed to achieve with the very luxuries Peperempe would later inherit? Irrelevant, tis beyond the point and for the purpose of compliance with narrative, must be conveniently overlooked. Bald b*stard, spoilt rich kid. Nil else.
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Post by Cristao II »

theYemster wrote:
cic old boy wrote:
txj wrote:
Agreed; money doesn't tell the whole story. But in the hands of experts, it can be an overwhelming advantage.

In this case, it is overwhelming. And its not just the spend under Guardiola, it's importantly the preparatory spending by Soriano and Txiki, ahead of his arrival...

When you can afford to buy the Barcelona starting GK, and them replace him with an Ederson when it doesn't work, you are on another level.

However, to be clear, for me it doesn't take anything away from Pep's achievements. However much you spend, you still have to make it work. And he has not just made it work, but elevated the game to new heights....
So in essence it is the expertise of Pep and the management team at City that is making a difference not the money. This is b/c City are not the only club that can blow millions on mistakes. Liverpool had Mignolet and Karius and still broke the world record for keepers when those two made too many blunders.
If that's the case then why don't they accomplish what they did while operating on Fulham's budget?

My guess, it's a combination of Pep's abilities AND the huge budget City have been operating with.
I still dont understand why people are being defensive about Pep spending money!! There is no wahala. Just admit that City have spent over $1.2 billion to get to where they are today. Yes the team plays fantastic football - yes the team is strong - the team is also expensive. Look as Pep spends more money on a CD, LB, and a CDM this transfer window.
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Re: Welcome to the EPL Señor Guardiola...

Post by Mr. Piffington »

Coach wrote:@Kaji, Pep is an inheritance merchant, how many of his treble winning starting XI did he sign? Many were there before he arrived? Hence the argument of fortuitous inheritance. As for the treble which predecessors had failed to achieve with the very luxuries Peperempe would later inherit? Irrelevant, tis beyond the point and for the purpose of compliance with narrative, must be conveniently overlooked. Bald b*stard, spoilt rich kid. Nil else.
We know the weak argument; if Pep buys then he’s a pocketbook manager, if he doesn’t but he’s an inheritance merchant. Nice one.
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Re: Welcome to the EPL Señor Guardiola...

Post by txj »

cic old boy wrote:
txj wrote:
Agreed; money doesn't tell the whole story. But in the hands of experts, it can be an overwhelming advantage.

In this case, it is overwhelming. And its not just the spend under Guardiola, it's importantly the preparatory spending by Soriano and Txiki, ahead of his arrival...

When you can afford to buy the Barcelona starting GK, and them replace him with an Ederson when it doesn't work, you are on another level.

However, to be clear, for me it doesn't take anything away from Pep's achievements. However much you spend, you still have to make it work. And he has not just made it work, but elevated the game to new heights....
So in essence it is the expertise of Pep and the management team at City that is making a difference not the money. This is b/c City are not the only club that can blow millions on mistakes. Liverpool had Mignolet and Karius and still broke the world record for keepers when those two made too many blunders.

How can you divorce the money from it? It's a combination of the two that makes it this decisive.
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Post by Cristao II »

Case in point

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txj wrote:

How can you divorce the money from it? It's a combination of the two that makes it this decisive.
The money doesn't matter much if the budgets are similar for the elite clubs. Manure have spent big to finish 6th. If only City was spending a fortune, you would say it is mainly about money.
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Cristao II wrote:
I still dont understand why people are being defensive about Pep spending money!! There is no wahala. Just admit that City have spent over $1.2 billion to get to where they are today. Yes the team plays fantastic football - yes the team is strong - the team is also expensive. Look as Pep spends more money on a CD, LB, and a CDM this transfer window.
The teams that have smashed transfer records were not City. If City spent $1.2bn and Manure spent $1.1bn, both teams should be neck and neck in performance. The facts are not defensive. The facts attack! :lol:
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kajifu wrote: Oga Cic you are been defensive here,how was city doing before Pep took over?You make it sound like City was some mid table team that he transform.yes coaching,management and planning etc will demonstrate that not only buying can do it.City under Pelle was a fantastic team,he won the league in his first season,took them to CL semi,is not like Pep has won something with City that has not been done before.City was playing one of the best attacking football under Pelle.
Ask your self how come since Pep left Barca,they have won as many titles without him?Also how come he was not able to match the previous coach at Bayern that he took over from?
Since you ask why are Manu 6th in similar budget,because they change management,the year they kept a manager all season they finish behind City in second because City outspend them.Now, explain why Spurs,Ajax and Liverpool with less budget doing better than City in CL?
Since Fergie retired Manure has had 4 coaches. In that time City have had 3 coaches. So City haven't had just one manager since then unlike Liverpool and Spurs. Borinho had 2 full seasons at Manure. He finished 6th in his 1st season and in his 2nd season finished 19pts behind City and 2nd. He was allowed to continue to a 3rd season and fired in December when they were 6th. His transfer budget was not that much different from City. Borinho started at Manure when Pep started at City. Their budgets were similar. Their outcomes are different. But Pep is succeeding b/c he is spending money! OK ooooh!
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Post by txj »

cic old boy wrote:
txj wrote:

How can you divorce the money from it? It's a combination of the two that makes it this decisive.
The money doesn't matter much if the budgets are similar for the elite clubs. Manure have spent big to finish 6th. If only City was spending a fortune, you would say it is mainly about money.

But the budgets are not similar for all elite clubs!
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Post by cic old boy »

txj wrote:
But the budgets are not similar for all elite clubs!
They are, give or take the odd million or two!

Klopp has spent £400+m, City £400+m. Borinho is not that far off either.
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cic old boy wrote:
kajifu wrote: Oga Cic you are been defensive here,how was city doing before Pep took over?You make it sound like City was some mid table team that he transform.yes coaching,management and planning etc will demonstrate that not only buying can do it.City under Pelle was a fantastic team,he won the league in his first season,took them to CL semi,is not like Pep has won something with City that has not been done before.City was playing one of the best attacking football under Pelle.
Ask your self how come since Pep left Barca,they have won as many titles without him?Also how come he was not able to match the previous coach at Bayern that he took over from?
Since you ask why are Manu 6th in similar budget,because they change management,the year they kept a manager all season they finish behind City in second because City outspend them.Now, explain why Spurs,Ajax and Liverpool with less budget doing better than City in CL?
Since Fergie retired Manure has had 4 coaches. In that time City have had 3 coaches. So City haven't had just one manager since then unlike Liverpool and Spurs. Borinho had 2 full seasons at Manure. He finished 6th in his 1st season and in his 2nd season finished 19pts behind City and 2nd. He was allowed to continue to a 3rd season and fired in December when they were 6th. His transfer budget was not that much different from City. Borinho started at Manure when Pep started at City. Their budgets were similar. Their outcomes are different. But Pep is succeeding b/c he is spending money! OK ooooh!
There is a very big difference when you talk about post Ferguson Manchester United.
In Ferguson's last year's, City and Chelsea already had better squads, and City was arguably the best in EPL and United was in need of major reinforcements despite winning the title.
United made the big error of hiring Moyes, a big blunder that was costly and disrupted backroom structures that had been assembled over many years, and after that the club has no fixed philosophy, and no director of football, and it shows when hey hire managers with different philosophies.

That is the difference with City, the structures have been on the build from the time Txiki and Soriano established a philosophy, it was easy for Pellegrini to come in, spend and win the title and a cup on his first attempt. He was already dealing with a good starting point, a club with a talented squad and good direction and also ready to back the manager on the transfer market.

Same applies to Pep Guardiola, we cannot dismiss his spending by using Manchester United errors.
Last edited by benteke on Tue May 21, 2019 10:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Welcome to the EPL Señor Guardiola...

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Mr. Piffington wrote:
Coach wrote:@Kaji, Pep is an inheritance merchant, how many of his treble winning starting XI did he sign? Many were there before he arrived? Hence the argument of fortuitous inheritance. As for the treble which predecessors had failed to achieve with the very luxuries Peperempe would later inherit? Irrelevant, tis beyond the point and for the purpose of compliance with narrative, must be conveniently overlooked. Bald b*stard, spoilt rich kid. Nil else.
We know the weak argument; if Pep buys then he’s a pocketbook manager, if he doesn’t but he’s an inheritance merchant. Nice one.
The point is that he took charge of a very good squad compared to others in EPL, it had a good spine that he can still use today, and still he added more to make it even stronger. It's such a strong squad, going forward he only needs to add one or two good quality players and he can still dominate.

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