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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 10:26 pm 
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theYemster wrote:
cic old boy wrote:
The context can't be the budget if other teams have a huge budget too. The fact that Manure are struggling with a huge budget means a coach makes a difference.

Riddle me this, athlete A takes drugs before a race and ends up losing, coming last. Athlete B also juices up, runs the same race and come first. Does the fact that athlete A lost nullify athlete A's unfair advantage?


cic old boy wrote:
Klopp has spent megabucks on Van Dijk and the goalie. Both the most expensive in the world in their positions. There are many others that he bought too including Naby Keita. Liverpool actually won the CL with Djimi Traore and have come 2nd a few times too on a relatively small budget. Do you remember what Klopp said when Pogba was bought for millions? He went out and spent similar amounts on a defender and goalie. But you are happy to overlook his spending and say Pep's success is down to the budget.

I have not overlooked it. My MAIN criteria for rating Klopp was his work at Dortmund, not Liverpool. Without his Dortmund record I'd be saying the same thing about him that I'm saying about Pep. But Klopp has already proven he can win without the advantage in trying to highlight. Pep as of now, hasn't.

I also mentioned that Liverpool unlike City didn't just go spending like a drunken sailor, most of the money they spent was from the revenue/profit they made from selling players. Knowing you can only spend that you make does a long way in determining how you build your team as opposed to knowing you have a point-and-buy organisation.


I also rate Klopp very highly, i started to follow Dortmund because of him. To challenge Bayern like that was an achievement.
It's like Diego Simeone's achievements with Atletico, very remarkable


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PostPosted: Tue May 21, 2019 11:02 pm 
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@Christian Benteke, having watched Deontay 'Bomb Squad" Wilder serve an oversized portion of swallow to Bermaine, accompanied by a wild Serengeti of assorted bush meats, one wondered whether there was need for further drills on the heavy bag. Suffice to say, the right was wrapped around the suspended stretch of raw hide for countless hours in the build up to bout with the pathetic Dominic Breazeale. The produce, dominance. The point, if one cannot achieve excellence, then dominance is the only compromise. Yes, Guardiola inherited a decent squad, by arbitrary measures, perhaps by his own standards twas far from just that. Boxers move trainers for want of advantage and bettered prospects. Victory is everything.


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 1:07 am 
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cic old boy wrote:
txj wrote:

But the budgets are not similar for all elite clubs!

They are, give or take the odd million or two!

Klopp has spent £400+m, City £400+m. Borinho is not that far off either.


But over what time period?

The teams are in different stages of their projects. To credit City with the same expenditure as LFC is laughable.

It ignores the level of their squad and investment before Klopp’s arrival and therefore what each manager had to do in building the squad.

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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 2:05 am 
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Since Guardiola has been there (3 seasons) this is the Prem spend table:

Approx. spending over last 3 transfer windows...
Chelsea £365m
Liverpool £330m
City £318m
Everton £225m
United £217m
Arsenal £175m
West Ham £143m
Spurs £110m

http://www.sportbible.com/football/tran ... s-20180809

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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 2:32 am 
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14 July 2015 MF 7 England Raheem Sterling England Liverpool £44,000,000
17 July 2015 MF 18 England Fabian Delph England Aston Villa £8,000,000
19 July 2015 MF 27 England Patrick Roberts England Fulham £12,000,000
20 August 2015 DF 30 Argentina Nicolás Otamendi Spain Valencia £28,400,000
30 August 2015 MF 17 Belgium Kevin De Bruyne Germany VfL Wolfsburg £55,000,000
15 January 2016 MF – Australia Anthony Cáceres Australia Central Coast Mariners £200,000

Total spending in 2015/16 preparatory to Pep's arrival: Decrease £150,000,000


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%8 ... .C._season

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We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 2:47 am 
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txj wrote:
14 July 2015 MF 7 England Raheem Sterling England Liverpool £44,000,000
17 July 2015 MF 18 England Fabian Delph England Aston Villa £8,000,000
19 July 2015 MF 27 England Patrick Roberts England Fulham £12,000,000
20 August 2015 DF 30 Argentina Nicolás Otamendi Spain Valencia £28,400,000
30 August 2015 MF 17 Belgium Kevin De Bruyne Germany VfL Wolfsburg £55,000,000
15 January 2016 MF – Australia Anthony Cáceres Australia Central Coast Mariners £200,000

Total spending in 2015/16 preparatory to Pep's arrival: Decrease £150,000,000


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%8 ... .C._season


You are guessing. They played under Manuel. Only one of them was a regular under Pep anyway.

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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 2:48 am 
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YUJAM wrote:
txj wrote:
14 July 2015 MF 7 England Raheem Sterling England Liverpool £44,000,000
17 July 2015 MF 18 England Fabian Delph England Aston Villa £8,000,000
19 July 2015 MF 27 England Patrick Roberts England Fulham £12,000,000
20 August 2015 DF 30 Argentina Nicolás Otamendi Spain Valencia £28,400,000
30 August 2015 MF 17 Belgium Kevin De Bruyne Germany VfL Wolfsburg £55,000,000
15 January 2016 MF – Australia Anthony Cáceres Australia Central Coast Mariners £200,000

Total spending in 2015/16 preparatory to Pep's arrival: Decrease £150,000,000


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%8 ... .C._season


You are guessing. They played under Manuel. Only one of them was a regular under Pep anyway.



What do you mean guessing? These are published transfer figures...

The point is that Guardiola's spending did not happen in a vacuum. His spending was layered on a squad that was being developed in expectation of his arrival...

But I must add that I often do not feel comfortable talking about who spent what...

But when you have this kind of resource base, it is overwhelming in the hand of experts...

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We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 3:11 am 
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Point is you cannot say they bought those players in preparation for Guardiola. That’s incorrect because they played for a different coach.

For context Pool spent 124 million with many purchases. https://www.transfermarkt.com/fc-liverp ... on_id/2015

The money aspect is overrated. Guys like Pep and Klopp to a lesser extent are doing great things that their predecessors could not do. These are great coaches


txj wrote:
YUJAM wrote:
txj wrote:
14 July 2015 MF 7 England Raheem Sterling England Liverpool £44,000,000
17 July 2015 MF 18 England Fabian Delph England Aston Villa £8,000,000
19 July 2015 MF 27 England Patrick Roberts England Fulham £12,000,000
20 August 2015 DF 30 Argentina Nicolás Otamendi Spain Valencia £28,400,000
30 August 2015 MF 17 Belgium Kevin De Bruyne Germany VfL Wolfsburg £55,000,000
15 January 2016 MF – Australia Anthony Cáceres Australia Central Coast Mariners £200,000

Total spending in 2015/16 preparatory to Pep's arrival: Decrease £150,000,000


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%8 ... .C._season


You are guessing. They played under Manuel. Only one of them was a regular under Pep anyway.



What do you mean guessing? These are published transfer figures...

The point is that Guardiola's spending did not happen in a vacuum. His spending was layered on a squad that was being developed in expectation of his arrival...

But I must add that I often do not feel comfortable talking about who spent what...

But when you have this kind of resource base, it is overwhelming in the hand of experts...

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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 5:47 am 
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3 transfer windows is small. Look at the last 6 at the least. Pep came 3 years ago.

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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 5:48 am 
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YUJAM wrote:
Point is you cannot say they bought those players in preparation for Guardiola. That’s incorrect because they played for a different coach.

For context Pool spent 124 million with many purchases. https://www.transfermarkt.com/fc-liverp ... on_id/2015

The money aspect is overrated. Guys like Pep and Klopp to a lesser extent are doing great things that their predecessors could not do. These are great coaches


txj wrote:
YUJAM wrote:
txj wrote:
14 July 2015 MF 7 England Raheem Sterling England Liverpool £44,000,000
17 July 2015 MF 18 England Fabian Delph England Aston Villa £8,000,000
19 July 2015 MF 27 England Patrick Roberts England Fulham £12,000,000
20 August 2015 DF 30 Argentina Nicolás Otamendi Spain Valencia £28,400,000
30 August 2015 MF 17 Belgium Kevin De Bruyne Germany VfL Wolfsburg £55,000,000
15 January 2016 MF – Australia Anthony Cáceres Australia Central Coast Mariners £200,000

Total spending in 2015/16 preparatory to Pep's arrival: Decrease £150,000,000


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2015%E2%8 ... .C._season


You are guessing. They played under Manuel. Only one of them was a regular under Pep anyway.



What do you mean guessing? These are published transfer figures...

The point is that Guardiola's spending did not happen in a vacuum. His spending was layered on a squad that was being developed in expectation of his arrival...

But I must add that I often do not feel comfortable talking about who spent what...

But when you have this kind of resource base, it is overwhelming in the hand of experts...


What exactly have Klopp and Guardiola done that their predecessors couldn't do?

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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 7:58 am 
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https://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/f ... 267269.amp

Quote:
....Which leaves Manchester City.

Vincent Kompany, whose goal against Leicester City last week tilted the title towards the Etihad, was the player in this season's squad who had been at the club the longest. He was signed in the summer of 2008, just days before the Abu Dhabi Group agreed a takeover of the club. In the subsequent years, City can claim a whopping net spend of £1.08bn.

Even when not including the first three years of that figure - taking it from the window in which Henderson was signed by Liverpool - the total is double the Reds' during the time their current squad has been built.

What these numbers don't demonstrate is the silverware picked up in the meantime. Liverpool, for example, can claim just a League Cup during their period, while Chelsea have won the Champions League once and the Premier League title twice.

Also, City had far more ground to make up than the likes of Liverpool and Tottenham to become a leading contender in the Premier League. But that almost £400m of that net spend has come since Guardiola took over in 2016 underlines the sheer financial might with which nobody else in the Premier League can compete.

Money has to be spent wisely to make a difference. But when there's so much of it, it's a lot easier to atone for a mistake. Liverpool will spend again in the summer, but Klopp will once again be left to capitalise on small margins rather than the very large disparity in transfer funds....


City's expenditure

2008 to 2016 (8 seasons): approx 680m pounds (Hughes, Mancini, Pelle)
2016 to 2019 (3 seasons): approx 400m pounds (Guardiola)

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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 8:41 am 
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benteke wrote:

There is a very big difference when you talk about post Ferguson Manchester United.
In Ferguson's last year's, City and Chelsea already had better squads, and City was arguably the best in EPL and United was in need of major reinforcements despite winning the title.
United made the big error of hiring Moyes, a big blunder that was costly and disrupted backroom structures that had been assembled over many years, and after that the club has no fixed philosophy, and no director of football, and it shows when hey hire managers with different philosophies.

That is the difference with City, the structures have been on the build from the time Txiki and Soriano established a philosophy, it was easy for Pellegrini to come in, spend and win the title and a cup on his first attempt. He was already dealing with a good starting point, a club with a talented squad and good direction and also ready to back the manager on the transfer market.

Same applies to Pep Guardiola, we cannot dismiss his spending by using Manchester United errors.

You guys always succeed in making my point for me. Remember what started this argument? It was that spending provided the context for Pep’s success. Now, you are accepting other variables are in play – structure, philosophy, etc! My point has been that where all the elite clubs spend similar amounts, then it is other factors that account for success. Those factors also include the quality of the coach. Coaching is not just tactics, it also involves identifying talent that would fit how you want to play. When you blow £50m on Fred, choose to get rid of KDB and Salah, you can’t complain that others are spending money, have better squads, etc.

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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 8:42 am 
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txj wrote:

But over what time period?

The teams are in different stages of their projects. To credit City with the same expenditure as LFC is laughable.

It ignores the level of their squad and investment before Klopp’s arrival and therefore what each manager had to do in building the squad.

So we are now at a stage of agreeing the clubs are spending similar amounts but some are entitled to blow huge figures and others are not? Have you considered that Pep also was at a stage that the squad he inherited was getting older and needed fresh blood? Yaya, Clichy, Kolarov, Sagna, and even Kompany were on their last legs.

You guys need to quit these puerile excuses. The financial advantage City has is over those that can’t spend similar amounts – the likes of Burnley, Brighton, etc. So if you gave all the clubs £20m to build their squads, Guardiola would still finish at the top b/c he is the better coach, his teams play the better football, but the margin b/w the top and the rest would most likely be a lot closer.

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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 9:42 am 
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cic old boy wrote:
benteke wrote:

There is a very big difference when you talk about post Ferguson Manchester United.
In Ferguson's last year's, City and Chelsea already had better squads, and City was arguably the best in EPL and United was in need of major reinforcements despite winning the title.
United made the big error of hiring Moyes, a big blunder that was costly and disrupted backroom structures that had been assembled over many years, and after that the club has no fixed philosophy, and no director of football, and it shows when hey hire managers with different philosophies.

That is the difference with City, the structures have been on the build from the time Txiki and Soriano established a philosophy, it was easy for Pellegrini to come in, spend and win the title and a cup on his first attempt. He was already dealing with a good starting point, a club with a talented squad and good direction and also ready to back the manager on the transfer market.

Same applies to Pep Guardiola, we cannot dismiss his spending by using Manchester United errors.

You guys always succeed in making my point for me. Remember what started this argument? It was that spending provided the context for Pep’s success. Now, you are accepting other variables are in play – structure, philosophy, etc! My point has been that where all the elite clubs spend similar amounts, then it is other factors that account for success. Those factors also include the quality of the coach. Coaching is not just tactics, it also involves identifying talent that would fit how you want to play. When you blow £50m on Fred, choose to get rid of KDB and Salah, you can’t complain that others are spending money, have better squads, etc.


Not disputing your point about other things variables but you seem to credit all of the success to 1 manager, you want to use the wrong example to make your point, United in it's current post Ferguson state is a bad comparison.
When you look at a club like Liverpool which also has a good structure and buys well, and a magnificent manager, then the advantage becomes the more money invested over a sustained period of time even before Pep arrived.
Because at this point we are now talking of two very good managers who do good things, no wonder the difference was only 1 point once Liverpool added some good signings last summer.
So yes point still remains, the more money spent cannot be ignored.


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 11:39 am 
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Coach wrote:
Did Ferguson have financial advantage over his counterparts before the dawn of the Oligarchs?

Mr. Piffington wrote:
Coach wrote:
@Yem, remember when United were breaking British transfer records left, right and centre? Never a doubt on Ferguson’s genius. At one point, weren’t United the biggest club in the world? No less a genius.

This is the crux of the issue. Nobody was crying when Ferguson’s United were winning and dominating for years but now that their reign is over it means the end of football.


Here is a nice article for you all to read and make what you will of it

The biggest spender in every PL season – and how they fared

https://www.football365.com/news/the-bi ... they-fared


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 1:43 pm 
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benteke wrote:

Not disputing your point about other things variables but you seem to credit all of the success to 1 manager, you want to use the wrong example to make your point, United in it's current post Ferguson state is a bad comparison.
When you look at a club like Liverpool which also has a good structure and buys well, and a magnificent manager, then the advantage becomes the more money invested over a sustained period of time even before Pep arrived.
Because at this point we are now talking of two very good managers who do good things, no wonder the difference was only 1 point once Liverpool added some good signings last summer.
So yes point still remains, the more money spent cannot be ignored.

I didn’t credit all success to the coach. I said that when all elite teams have similar resources, the coach makes the difference. I also said coaching is about identifying the right players – so you really need good/great players to deliver. Of course, a coach needs to work in the right environment. So if Guardiola went to Nigeria he’d fail.
I brought up Manure b/c people were arguing it was about money. Money is no object for them and they are not a picture of success right now.

Klopp didn’t just start spending money last season. He has been at Liverpool for four years longer than Pep at City. And Liverpool didn’t start spending money on Klopp’s arrival. They finished second under Rodgers. Some of Klopp’s main men were there b/4 he arrived – like Henderson and Milner. Liverpool have been investing in their squad at least since the FSG took over from the fly by night cowboys. They can’t plead poverty. Coaching is the difference b/w teams of similar resources.

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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 1:47 pm 
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benteke wrote:
Coach wrote:
Did Ferguson have financial advantage over his counterparts before the dawn of the Oligarchs?

Mr. Piffington wrote:
Coach wrote:
@Yem, remember when United were breaking British transfer records left, right and centre? Never a doubt on Ferguson’s genius. At one point, weren’t United the biggest club in the world? No less a genius.

This is the crux of the issue. Nobody was crying when Ferguson’s United were winning and dominating for years but now that their reign is over it means the end of football.


Here is a nice article for you all to read and make what you will of it

The biggest spender in every PL season – and how they fared

https://www.football365.com/news/the-bi ... they-fared


Good start by the author but the analysis is incomplete. A look at total spend per season should be interesting. Also consider spend on wages in addition. I would expect a club with average players to attempt to spend more transfer fees than a club with a top squad. The big picture is required.

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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 3:35 pm 
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At what point does one call market trends and hyperinflation into the stand? This is, after all, the era of lucrative TV deals and hyper marketability. Yes, the spends are ridiculous, but no more than a reflection of the game’s evolution.

There’s a need for context and contemporaneous critique in all analyses. Are the numbers exaggerated by the butcher or the farmer? Guardiola or rather Peperempe is guilty of setting a exclusive standard, as far as playing personnel be concerned. Such prerequisite puts City at risk of significant expenditure in a market where farmers sell the cow, not least for beef, but leather, milk and Chinese remedies. In other words, the buyer is buying everything, the shirt sales, the superhero status on social media, the dabs, the Memes, for everything and anything is marketable and marketed in this monstrosity of a marketplace.

Tis too simplistic to look at numbers alone. Crystal Palace want £100m for Wilfred Zaha, Harry Maguire is 80 odd. Twenty is the new five. The hundred million man was an impossibility a decade ago, how teams spend that on 34 year olds and have others of equal expense playing Candy Krush on the bench. It is was it is.


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 3:52 pm 
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cic old boy wrote:
benteke wrote:

Not disputing your point about other things variables but you seem to credit all of the success to 1 manager, you want to use the wrong example to make your point, United in it's current post Ferguson state is a bad comparison.
When you look at a club like Liverpool which also has a good structure and buys well, and a magnificent manager, then the advantage becomes the more money invested over a sustained period of time even before Pep arrived.
Because at this point we are now talking of two very good managers who do good things, no wonder the difference was only 1 point once Liverpool added some good signings last summer.
So yes point still remains, the more money spent cannot be ignored.

I didn’t credit all success to the coach. I said that when all elite teams have similar resources, the coach makes the difference. I also said coaching is about identifying the right players – so you really need good/great players to deliver. Of course, a coach needs to work in the right environment. So if Guardiola went to Nigeria he’d fail.
I brought up Manure b/c people were arguing it was about money. Money is no object for them and they are not a picture of success right now.

Klopp didn’t just start spending money last season. He has been at Liverpool for four years longer than Pep at City. And Liverpool didn’t start spending money on Klopp’s arrival. They finished second under Rodgers. Some of Klopp’s main men were there b/4 he arrived – like Henderson and Milner. Liverpool have been investing in their squad at least since the FSG took over from the fly by night cowboys. They can’t plead poverty. Coaching is the difference b/w teams of similar resources.


Yes but the fact is City has spent much more, we cannot run away from that fact. And at the same time we can still acknowledge other factors.


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 4:35 pm 
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@Tekkers, it will only get worse as the endemicity of the problem reaches unparalleled proportions. The schools are failing in the grade, the market will fill the void.


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 4:50 pm 
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cic old boy wrote:
benteke wrote:

Not disputing your point about other things variables but you seem to credit all of the success to 1 manager, you want to use the wrong example to make your point, United in it's current post Ferguson state is a bad comparison.
When you look at a club like Liverpool which also has a good structure and buys well, and a magnificent manager, then the advantage becomes the more money invested over a sustained period of time even before Pep arrived.
Because at this point we are now talking of two very good managers who do good things, no wonder the difference was only 1 point once Liverpool added some good signings last summer.
So yes point still remains, the more money spent cannot be ignored.

I didn’t credit all success to the coach. I said that when all elite teams have similar resources, the coach makes the difference. I also said coaching is about identifying the right players – so you really need good/great players to deliver. Of course, a coach needs to work in the right environment. So if Guardiola went to Nigeria he’d fail.
I brought up Manure b/c people were arguing it was about money. Money is no object for them and they are not a picture of success right now.

Klopp didn’t just start spending money last season. He has been at Liverpool for four years longer than Pep at City. And Liverpool didn’t start spending money on Klopp’s arrival. They finished second under Rodgers. Some of Klopp’s main men were there b/4 he arrived – like Henderson and Milner. Liverpool have been investing in their squad at least since the FSG took over from the fly by night cowboys. They can’t plead poverty. Coaching is the difference b/w teams of similar resources.



What on earth are you talking about?

Both teams have a lot of resources. LFC cannot plead poverty by any means. But they most definitely do not have similar resources...

The value of both squads is different. The investment outlay over the last 8 seasons is different. Plus City are building on championship winning squads since 2011-2012...

Yes, coaching is the difference between teams of similar resources. But LFC and MCFC do NOT have similar resources. There is no objective analysis of the squad investments of both clubs that can lead to such a conclusion...

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We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 7:36 pm 
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txj wrote:
What on earth are you talking about?

Both teams have a lot of resources. LFC cannot plead poverty by any means. But they most definitely do not have similar resources...

The value of both squads is different. The investment outlay over the last 8 seasons is different. Plus City are building on championship winning squads since 2011-2012...

Yes, coaching is the difference between teams of similar resources. But LFC and MCFC do NOT have similar resources. There is no objective analysis of the squad investments of both clubs that can lead to such a conclusion...

I didn't punctuate my sentence well - just seeing it now. What I meant was Klopp has been at Liverpool 4 years - he has been there longer than Pep has been at City. He has had longer to build his team and money was no object. The argument that the City team was being built for Pep b/4 he arrived is hollow.

Liverpool bid 75m for Van Dijk and City pulled out. Liverpool paid 65m for Naby Keita. Fabinho was megabucks too. This is a team that had already blown a fortune on Salah, Mane, etc. Liverpool would have won the title b/4 Klopp but for Gerrard's slip.

The fact that the sheikhs started spending money on City 10 years ago is laughably irrelevant. Liverpool were also blowing money on Andy Carroll, Torres, Suarez, etc. Money is not the difference b/w Liverpool and City. I rate Klopp as a coach, but I think Pep is a better coach. I think Pep would win the league with the squads at Manure, Spurs, Liverpool and Chelsea. I don't think he would win it with the Arse. And Liverpool and Manure would have won the league this season and last without Pep.

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PostPosted: Wed May 22, 2019 7:37 pm 
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benteke wrote:

Yes but the fact is City has spent much more, we cannot run away from that fact. And at the same time we can still acknowledge other factors.

Much more this season or in the last 10 years?

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