Congrats to my man Zidane.

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Re: Congrats to my man Zidane.

Post by ohsee »

benteke wrote:
felarey wrote:Ok but can he do it on a cold November night at the Britannia? :taunt:
How come no-one else is crying for him to come and replace Wenger.
Maybe they see that he may be another Pep riding on players.

Or maybe Zidane really has a bright future ahead and is really tactical :?:
:lol: :lol:
benteke how bodi? Why should Zidane leave the best club in the world for Arsenal? By the way, Pep is an outstanding coach, let's not get carried away. Yes, he did not live up to hype, but his team is in the top four. One possibility for his failure to deliver is that his methods have by now been studied to death,and nothing he does is a surprise to anyone.
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Re: Congrats to my man Zidane.

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ohsee wrote:So are you saying that it is merely a minor matter to select the right kind of players to fit your system? OK o. If we grant that Zidane's iconic status helps win games, are you saying it is minor? Why do other iconic players not win games? Maradona was a total flop with Argentina, and his successor took almost the same team to the next final, how is that possible if coaching is not important?

If coaching is not important and is only minor, you will need to explain why big clubs--who have teams of experts working on this, and put their reputations and money on the line--spend so much money paying for, and effort trying to find the right coach. Is it because they like to throw money away? By your argument, David Moyes should have done just as well as Sir Alex Ferguson at Man United with the same players. But he did not. And David Moyes should do well at Real. Why not?

By the way, is a "transformational coach" not a coach? I don't call them "transformational," I call them "great coaches."
You are missing the point. When many top teams are almost similar in terms of talent, games are won and lost on minor details. Anyone that knows about the game should know this. But when you look at the overall picture, it is players that decide games, and the contribution of coaches is marginal in relation to that of players.

I said Zidane’s iconic status is a contribution towards success. I never said an icon would always win games. I have already said Zizou would not win the league with Sevilla. That tells you it is all about players – at least by 95%.

More money is spent on players than coaches. Top players earn more than top coaches. That should explain who is more important. Clubs like Real, Barca, Manure, etc are global brands so they pay top money for coaches who front the brand. To coach a club like Madrid is more than just prep for games. It is dealing with pressure, taking pressure away from players, massaging egos, handling the media with about 5 sports dailies following the club, 500 journos at each training session, etc. El Presidente said the job was too big for Borinho. Luis Enrique said a day at Barca was like 3 days elsewhere.

Let me let you in on a “trade secret”. Moyes was a better coach than Fergie. Fergie just knew how to manage men better, had influence over refs (worth about 10 points a season – according Harry Redknapp), etc. In fact, Fergie was probably one of the worst coaches in the modern era. He was successful b/c there are other variables in winning games such as having the right players, the right blend, etc.

What did Luis Enrique achieve b/4 he became Barca coach? He won the treble at Barca. He’d probably never smell a trophy again. Tito Vilanova won the league with Barca after Pep left despite being sick with cancer and could have won the CL if Messi was fit.

Don’t believe the hype. Coaches make a contribution to games, but it is usually about minor details.
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Re: Congrats to my man Zidane.

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ohsee wrote: :lol: :lol:
benteke how bodi? Why should Zidane leave the best club in the world for Arsenal? By the way, Pep is an outstanding coach, let's not get carried away. Yes, he did not live up to hype, but his team is in the top four. One possibility for his failure to deliver is that his methods have by now been studied to death,and nothing he does is a surprise to anyone.
I don’t agree with this. It is most likely that he struggled b/c he didn’t have the players to execute his system/they needed time to embed the system. If you have Stones instead of Pique or Jerome Boateng trying to play from the back, you are going to chop goals.
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Re: Congrats to my man Zidane.

Post by green4life »

The YeyeMan wrote:Hoping Juve wins. For Buffon.

And because I cannot stand Real.
I like Real (don't care much for barca tho) but I'm rooting for Juventus. Hopefully, they'll win. Either way, it will be interesting to watch.
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Re: Congrats to my man Zidane.

Post by benteke »

ohsee wrote:
benteke wrote:
felarey wrote:Ok but can he do it on a cold November night at the Britannia? :taunt:
How come no-one else is crying for him to come and replace Wenger.
Maybe they see that he may be another Pep riding on players.

Or maybe Zidane really has a bright future ahead and is really tactical :?:
:lol: :lol:
benteke how bodi? Why should Zidane leave the best club in the world for Arsenal? By the way, Pep is an outstanding coach, let's not get carried away. Yes, he did not live up to hype, but his team is in the top four. One possibility for his failure to deliver is that his methods have by now been studied to death,and nothing he does is a surprise to anyone.
Tongue in cheek my chief :sneaky:

But OK now seriously, there may always be that question by people suggesting that a club like Real Madrid has such good players that Zidane only needed a few tweaks and he was home, like some are suggesting here
Remember when Chelsea also had a very strong squad and Di Matteo took it to CL Final and won.

Then we will have that suggestion that if Zidane is an elite coach, he must prove himself in the most difficult league in Europe, the EPL.

Look at what has happened to Pep.
And by the way Pep dodged a bigger challenge in taking on a Manchester United in shambles and went for the some hat easier task at City where that team was arguably the strongest in the EPL, i will not forgive him for that.

Anyway let us see how Zidane fares in the coming years, and also let's see how Pep does in his second season and how long he will last in the EPL.
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Re: Congrats to my man Zidane.

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cic old boy wrote:
ohsee wrote:So are you saying that it is merely a minor matter to select the right kind of players to fit your system? OK o. If we grant that Zidane's iconic status helps win games, are you saying it is minor? Why do other iconic players not win games? Maradona was a total flop with Argentina, and his successor took almost the same team to the next final, how is that possible if coaching is not important?

If coaching is not important and is only minor, you will need to explain why big clubs--who have teams of experts working on this, and put their reputations and money on the line--spend so much money paying for, and effort trying to find the right coach. Is it because they like to throw money away? By your argument, David Moyes should have done just as well as Sir Alex Ferguson at Man United with the same players. But he did not. And David Moyes should do well at Real. Why not?

By the way, is a "transformational coach" not a coach? I don't call them "transformational," I call them "great coaches."
You are missing the point. When many top teams are almost similar in terms of talent, games are won and lost on minor details. Anyone that knows about the game should know this. But when you look at the overall picture, it is players that decide games, and the contribution of coaches is marginal in relation to that of players.

I said Zidane’s iconic status is a contribution towards success. I never said an icon would always win games. I have already said Zizou would not win the league with Sevilla. That tells you it is all about players – at least by 95%.

More money is spent on players than coaches. Top players earn more than top coaches. That should explain who is more important. Clubs like Real, Barca, Manure, etc are global brands so they pay top money for coaches who front the brand. To coach a club like Madrid is more than just prep for games. It is dealing with pressure, taking pressure away from players, massaging egos, handling the media with about 5 sports dailies following the club, 500 journos at each training session, etc. El Presidente said the job was too big for Borinho. Luis Enrique said a day at Barca was like 3 days elsewhere.

Let me let you in on a “trade secret”. Moyes was a better coach than Fergie. Fergie just knew how to manage men better, had influence over refs (worth about 10 points a season – according Harry Redknapp), etc. In fact, Fergie was probably one of the worst coaches in the modern era. He was successful b/c there are other variables in winning games such as having the right players, the right blend, etc.

What did Luis Enrique achieve b/4 he became Barca coach? He won the treble at Barca. He’d probably never smell a trophy again. Tito Vilanova won the league with Barca after Pep left despite being sick with cancer and could have won the CL if Messi was fit.

Don’t believe the hype. Coaches make a contribution to games, but it is usually about minor details.
The part in bold :ohmy:
Here we go again :rotf:
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Re: Congrats to my man Zidane.

Post by ohsee »

cic old boy wrote:
ohsee wrote:So are you saying that it is merely a minor matter to select the right kind of players to fit your system? OK o. If we grant that Zidane's iconic status helps win games, are you saying it is minor? Why do other iconic players not win games? Maradona was a total flop with Argentina, and his successor took almost the same team to the next final, how is that possible if coaching is not important?

If coaching is not important and is only minor, you will need to explain why big clubs--who have teams of experts working on this, and put their reputations and money on the line--spend so much money paying for, and effort trying to find the right coach. Is it because they like to throw money away? By your argument, David Moyes should have done just as well as Sir Alex Ferguson at Man United with the same players. But he did not. And David Moyes should do well at Real. Why not?

By the way, is a "transformational coach" not a coach? I don't call them "transformational," I call them "great coaches."
You are missing the point. When many top teams are almost similar in terms of talent, games are won and lost on minor details. Anyone that knows about the game should know this. But when you look at the overall picture, it is players that decide games, and the contribution of coaches is marginal in relation to that of players.

I said Zidane’s iconic status is a contribution towards success. I never said an icon would always win games. I have already said Zizou would not win the league with Sevilla. That tells you it is all about players – at least by 95%.

More money is spent on players than coaches. Top players earn more than top coaches. That should explain who is more important. Clubs like Real, Barca, Manure, etc are global brands so they pay top money for coaches who front the brand. To coach a club like Madrid is more than just prep for games. It is dealing with pressure, taking pressure away from players, massaging egos, handling the media with about 5 sports dailies following the club, 500 journos at each training session, etc. El Presidente said the job was too big for Borinho. Luis Enrique said a day at Barca was like 3 days elsewhere.

Let me let you in on a “trade secret”. Moyes was a better coach than Fergie. Fergie just knew how to manage men better, had influence over refs (worth about 10 points a season – according Harry Redknapp), etc. In fact, Fergie was probably one of the worst coaches in the modern era. He was successful b/c there are other variables in winning games such as having the right players, the right blend, etc.

What did Luis Enrique achieve b/4 he became Barca coach? He won the treble at Barca. He’d probably never smell a trophy again. Tito Vilanova won the league with Barca after Pep left despite being sick with cancer and could have won the CL if Messi was fit.

Don’t believe the hype. Coaches make a contribution to games, but it is usually about minor details.
cic, you are dodging the key questions and giving us your free opinions instead. If coaches only contribute minor details, why not hire Moyes or Big Sam to lead Barcelona or Real? Surely these fellows could do just as well at Real? Real could reduce the salary cost of paying coaches fabulous sums and just hire journeymen for peanuts who can easily supply these minor details.

You have not explained why coaches like Mourinho win wherever they go. He won at Porto, winning league, Europa and Champions League with a small club from a backyard league. Then he went to Chelsea where Ranieri had been unable to win. He won two league titles with Ranieri's players, with the notable exception of Drogba and Robben, who were actually identified by Ranieri as players to purchase. He then went to Inter where he won league and Champions League again with a bunch of old men. He then went to Real where he won despite the dominance of Barca. Then he came back to Chelsea where he once again won the league in record time. This is all minor details? You really believe that coaching is not that important?

I know this is CE where we are all free to present our cost-free opinions. But the people who are involved in this matter on the inside, and put real money on the line, do not agree with you. They spend huge sums of money to get the right coach, and invest lots of resources in watching and wooing them. You need to explain why they do this.
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Re: Congrats to my man Zidane.

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ohsee wrote: cic, you are dodging the key questions and giving us your free opinions instead. If coaches only contribute minor details, why not hire Moyes or Big Sam to lead Barcelona or Real? Surely these fellows could do just as well at Real? Real could reduce the salary cost of paying coaches fabulous sums and just hire journeymen for peanuts who can easily supply these minor details.

You have not explained why coaches like Mourinho win wherever they go. He won at Porto, winning league, Europa and Champions League with a small club from a backyard league. Then he went to Chelsea where Ranieri had been unable to win. He won two league titles with Ranieri's players, with the notable exception of Drogba and Robben, who were actually identified by Ranieri as players to purchase. He then went to Inter where he won league and Champions League again with a bunch of old men. He then went to Real where he won despite the dominance of Barca. Then he came back to Chelsea where he once again won the league in record time. This is all minor details? You really believe that coaching is not that important?

I know this is CE where we are all free to present our cost-free opinions. But the people who are involved in this matter on the inside, and put real money on the line, do not agree with you. They spend huge sums of money to get the right coach, and invest lots of resources in watching and wooing them. You need to explain why they do this.
Nna, football is a matter of opinions (with some more valid than others). For e.g. some coaches believe you got to have a system and then find players to fit, others believe you adjust the system to fit the players you have. Both opinions are valid to varying degrees.

Big Sam/Moyes could coach Barca – coaching is teaching. The fundamentals are the same. The devil is in the minor details. For e.g. Moyes is a better coach than Fergie, but Moyes had never won anything in his life. When Fergie was Manure coach, if things are going wrong, he can say to the players, continue to do it my way and it would turn out right. They would look at his medals and think he is probably right. Moyes is in trouble at the first sign that things are going wrong. Players would question him, think his ideas are probably why he has never won anything and start undermining him. The authority is not there. Zizou is similar to Fergie with the gravitas that comes from winning as a player.

Fergie won most of the stuff he won due to the strong influence of good coaches that were assisting on the training ground. Fergie hardly spent time on the training ground. Many of those good coaches could not cut it as the top man. It doesn’t mean they were not good coaches. It means that minor details such as motivation, is the player settled at home, is he playing for the manager, etc are the stuff that turn also-rans into winners.

Luis Enrique and Tito Vilanova were not that superior to Big Sam or Moyes. And they won stuff with Barca. It should tell you that the importance of coaches can be overestimated.

Borinho had big budgets at Porto, Chelski, Inter, Real, Manure, etc. and very good and deep squads too. Let him try winning the league with Southampton or Boavista. The Chelski side he inherited came 2nd in the league. It just required minor details to take them to the top. The same Borinho was nearly relegated with Chelski last season and came 6th with Manure after spending nearly £200m.

What I wrote isn’t new. Many in the game say and know it. It is a surprise you are only reading about these views on CE. Coaching is about minor details that bring about minor improvements. For e.g. Barca like to spread out the game using wide midfielders and attacking fullbacks. So the pitch at the Nou Camp is wider than most. When Chelski played Barca, Borinho had the pitch narrowed at Stamford Bridge. He also allowed the grass to grow a little longer to make it difficult for a passing game. These are examples of minor details that can give you a slight advantage, which could turn a loss into a draw, or a draw into a win. But you still need good players to execute.

There are other minor details like rotating how you foul a dangerous player like Messi so you minimise the risk of a red card.
Hiring big-name coaches is more than about coaching. Global brands need a high profile figure as the face of the club. They help attract sponsorship, big players, etc. It is about branding.
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Re: Congrats to my man Zidane.

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benteke wrote: The part in bold :ohmy:
Here we go again :rotf:
What's funny? There is a thread on this with evidence from the players.
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Re: Congrats to my man Zidane.

Post by charlie »

I would usually always give an Italian top defense the edge in any champions league finals. God knows Milan, Juve, Inter and others have thought me never to bet against Italian teams.

That said, this is Real Madrid, and they have been totally dominant in Champions League history when they get to this stage. I cant remember the last time the lost in a finals.

As such, I honestly cannot say who I think has the best chance of winning, which is excellent for neutral fans and non-haters.

It is going to be a cracker of a final...May the best team win.

PS: Oloye,....you still think Real will fire Zizou?
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Re: Congrats to my man Zidane.

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ohsee wrote:
cic old boy wrote:
ohsee wrote:So are you saying that it is merely a minor matter to select the right kind of players to fit your system? OK o. If we grant that Zidane's iconic status helps win games, are you saying it is minor? Why do other iconic players not win games? Maradona was a total flop with Argentina, and his successor took almost the same team to the next final, how is that possible if coaching is not important?

If coaching is not important and is only minor, you will need to explain why big clubs--who have teams of experts working on this, and put their reputations and money on the line--spend so much money paying for, and effort trying to find the right coach. Is it because they like to throw money away? By your argument, David Moyes should have done just as well as Sir Alex Ferguson at Man United with the same players. But he did not. And David Moyes should do well at Real. Why not?

By the way, is a "transformational coach" not a coach? I don't call them "transformational," I call them "great coaches."
You are missing the point. When many top teams are almost similar in terms of talent, games are won and lost on minor details. Anyone that knows about the game should know this. But when you look at the overall picture, it is players that decide games, and the contribution of coaches is marginal in relation to that of players.

I said Zidane’s iconic status is a contribution towards success. I never said an icon would always win games. I have already said Zizou would not win the league with Sevilla. That tells you it is all about players – at least by 95%.

More money is spent on players than coaches. Top players earn more than top coaches. That should explain who is more important. Clubs like Real, Barca, Manure, etc are global brands so they pay top money for coaches who front the brand. To coach a club like Madrid is more than just prep for games. It is dealing with pressure, taking pressure away from players, massaging egos, handling the media with about 5 sports dailies following the club, 500 journos at each training session, etc. El Presidente said the job was too big for Borinho. Luis Enrique said a day at Barca was like 3 days elsewhere.

Let me let you in on a “trade secret”. Moyes was a better coach than Fergie. Fergie just knew how to manage men better, had influence over refs (worth about 10 points a season – according Harry Redknapp), etc. In fact, Fergie was probably one of the worst coaches in the modern era. He was successful b/c there are other variables in winning games such as having the right players, the right blend, etc.

What did Luis Enrique achieve b/4 he became Barca coach? He won the treble at Barca. He’d probably never smell a trophy again. Tito Vilanova won the league with Barca after Pep left despite being sick with cancer and could have won the CL if Messi was fit.

Don’t believe the hype. Coaches make a contribution to games, but it is usually about minor details.
cic, you are dodging the key questions and giving us your free opinions instead. If coaches only contribute minor details, why not hire Moyes or Big Sam to lead Barcelona or Real? Surely these fellows could do just as well at Real? Real could reduce the salary cost of paying coaches fabulous sums and just hire journeymen for peanuts who can easily supply these minor details.

You have not explained why coaches like Mourinho win wherever they go. He won at Porto, winning league, Europa and Champions League with a small club from a backyard league. Then he went to Chelsea where Ranieri had been unable to win. He won two league titles with Ranieri's players, with the notable exception of Drogba and Robben, who were actually identified by Ranieri as players to purchase. He then went to Inter where he won league and Champions League again with a bunch of old men. He then went to Real where he won despite the dominance of Barca. Then he came back to Chelsea where he once again won the league in record time. This is all minor details? You really believe that coaching is not that important?

I know this is CE where we are all free to present our cost-free opinions. But the people who are involved in this matter on the inside, and put real money on the line, do not agree with you. They spend huge sums of money to get the right coach, and invest lots of resources in watching and wooing them. You need to explain why they do this.
CIC will keep dodging the question because he doesn't want to admit that his boy, Pep, was humbled and brought down to earth in England barely qualifying for CL while going trophyless for the first time in his career all while using a squad that was the deepest and most talented squad in England without a doubt on top of the fact that Pep outspent the competition.

As for Zidane, only time will tell however he seems more flexible tactics-wise than Pep. However, it is difficult to determine how good he is until he gets an opportunity outside Real Madrid/ Ronaldo.... just as we've seen Pep wobbling without Messi (There's only one team in Germany so no need to consider Bayern Munich experience).
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Re: Congrats to my man Zidane.

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green4life wrote: CIC will keep dodging the question because he doesn't want to admit that his boy, Pep, was humbled and brought down to earth in England barely qualifying for CL while going trophyless for the first time in his career all while using a squad that was the deepest and most talented squad in England without a doubt on top of the fact that Pep outspent the competition.

As for Zidane, only time will tell however he seems more flexible tactics-wise than Pep. However, it is difficult to determine how good he is until he gets an opportunity outside Real Madrid/ Ronaldo.... just as we've seen Pep wobbling without Messi (There's only one team in Germany so no need to consider Bayern Munich experience).
Nna, did you read what I wrote? I questioned Pep’s achievements by suggesting Luis Enrique did the same and Tito would have perhaps done so too if not for illness and Messi’s injury. That says the players were the major factor for Barca’s successes.

Pep is not a magician. He could be credited with adding high pressing to Barca’s possession game, but I wouldn’t call him transformational like Cruyff.

This whole EPL “humbling” thing is just silliness. For someone to be humbled requires them to be grandiose and overbearing. Can you point out where Pep was talking himself up b/4 coming to England? I may have missed it. I have never seen or read about him claiming the credit for what the clubs he coached achieved. He played the game to a high level and knows who makes the difference.

The claim that City has the most talented squad in England is madness that one of my Chelski-supporting friends also made. I then asked him for us to compare the City first team with Chelski’s and he started floundering. Aguero and Fernandinho are arguably the only City players that could start for Chelski. Many of you guys watch the game with blinkers on.
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Re: Congrats to my man Zidane.

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cic old boy wrote:
green4life wrote: CIC will keep dodging the question because he doesn't want to admit that his boy, Pep, was humbled and brought down to earth in England barely qualifying for CL while going trophyless for the first time in his career all while using a squad that was the deepest and most talented squad in England without a doubt on top of the fact that Pep outspent the competition.

As for Zidane, only time will tell however he seems more flexible tactics-wise than Pep. However, it is difficult to determine how good he is until he gets an opportunity outside Real Madrid/ Ronaldo.... just as we've seen Pep wobbling without Messi (There's only one team in Germany so no need to consider Bayern Munich experience).
Nna, did you read what I wrote? I questioned Pep’s achievements by suggesting Luis Enrique did the same and Tito would have perhaps done so too if not for illness and Messi’s injury. That says the players were the major factor for Barca’s successes.

Pep is not a magician. He could be credited with adding high pressing to Barca’s possession game, but I wouldn’t call him transformational like Cruyff.

This whole EPL “humbling” thing is just silliness. For someone to be humbled requires them to be grandiose and overbearing. Can you point out where Pep was talking himself up b/4 coming to England? I may have missed it. I have never seen or read about him claiming the credit for what the clubs he coached achieved. He played the game to a high level and knows who makes the difference.

The claim that City has the most talented squad in England is madness that one of my Chelski-supporting friends also made. I then asked him for us to compare the City first team with Chelski’s and he started floundering. Aguero and Fernandinho are arguably the only City players that could start for Chelski. Many of you guys watch the game with blinkers on.
Pep is quietly arrogant. When he's on top, you will see it. He will respond to media like he's talking to a bunch of 2 year olds, etc. Jose is more express in his approach. But they are both somewhat similar in that regard.

Then when you talk about squads, everyone knows that City had the deepest squad and the most quality. Hindsight vision is always 20/20. But once upon a time when Chelsea was 8th in the league this season and 8pts behind Pep's City after they lost 0-3 to Arsenal, only Kante, Diego, Hazard and Cortouis would've made the City first 11. Back then folks were making a mockery of Luiz, Cahill and grandpa JT. It's easy to look back and say so and so are also better but honestly speaking, do you see Pep giving Moses and Alonso a chance? Can Fabregas press? Does he even have enough stamina to handle weekly 90 mins for Conte talkless of Pep? Is Matic as mobile as Fernandinho or does he have even 50% of Yaya's quality? Pedro was barely playing until Conte redefined his role. But even at that, compare Pedro/Willian to KDB, Sane, & Silva and explain to me how the CFC counterparts are better. Even Kelechi, a proven EPL scorer vs Batshuayi ... Really? On top he still went and picked Jesus and benched Kelechi & even Aguero at a point. But Pep didn't have more quality nor depth than Conte? Do you also want to compare City to CFC bench? My brother, abeg forget story. Pep fumbled big time relative to resources at hand and he wasn't the only rookie EPL manager this season.
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Re: Congrats to my man Zidane.

Post by felarey »

You guys arguing with CIC, notice what he wrote here:

I remember seeing a union leader complain about the CEO of a train company awarding himself a 10% pay raise for improvements in productivity and giving just 3% to train drivers. The union guy said: “You would think he drove every f*cking train himself”.

That shows where his mindset is. This is a fundamental way of thinking that can't be swayed on the merits of facts alone. Uneasy lies the head that wears the crown. The players play but someone is responsible for the output of every single one of them. I bet those train drivers have been driving the trains for decades without the same result.
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Re: Congrats to my man Zidane.

Post by benteke »

green4life wrote:
Pep is quietly arrogant. When he's on top, you will see it. He will respond to media like he's talking to a bunch of 2 year olds, etc. Jose is more express in his approach. But they are both somewhat similar in that regard.

Then when you talk about squads, everyone knows that City had the deepest squad and the most quality. Hindsight vision is always 20/20. But once upon a time when Chelsea was 8th in the league this season and 8pts behind Pep's City after they lost 0-3 to Arsenal, only Kante, Diego, Hazard and Cortouis would've made the City first 11. Back then folks were making a mockery of Luiz, Cahill and grandpa JT. It's easy to look back and say so and so are also better but honestly speaking, do you see Pep giving Moses and Alonso a chance? Can Fabregas press? Does he even have enough stamina to handle weekly 90 mins for Conte talkless of Pep? Is Matic as mobile as Fernandinho or does he have even 50% of Yaya's quality? Pedro was barely playing until Conte redefined his role. But even at that, compare Pedro/Willian to KDB, Sane, & Silva and explain to me how the CFC counterparts are better. Even Kelechi, a proven EPL scorer vs Batshuayi ... Really? On top he still went and picked Jesus and benched Kelechi & even Aguero at a point. But Pep didn't have more quality nor depth than Conte? Do you also want to compare City to CFC bench? My brother, abeg forget story. Pep fumbled big time relative to resources at hand and he wasn't the only rookie EPL manager this season.
You have absolutely nailed it here.
We all remember how Pep had a blazing start and people thought we would see something amazing, and Pep started showing his arrogant side, making snide comments and picking fights with the likes of Yaya and his agent.
But one thing that surprised me is that he can be very humble, EPL humbled him in that respect, he even agreed that top 4 is a trophy.
Your comments about his squad are correct, I don't know why people now complain about John Stones yet it was Pep who moved on more solid defenders like Mangala and Demichelis for Stones.
He also had a pretty solid keeper whom he moved along in favor of Bravo.
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cic old boy
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Re: Congrats to my man Zidane.

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green4life wrote: Pep is quietly arrogant. When he's on top, you will see it. He will respond to media like he's talking to a bunch of 2 year olds, etc. Jose is more express in his approach. But they are both somewhat similar in that regard.

Then when you talk about squads, everyone knows that City had the deepest squad and the most quality. Hindsight vision is always 20/20. But once upon a time when Chelsea was 8th in the league this season and 8pts behind Pep's City after they lost 0-3 to Arsenal, only Kante, Diego, Hazard and Cortouis would've made the City first 11. Back then folks were making a mockery of Luiz, Cahill and grandpa JT. It's easy to look back and say so and so are also better but honestly speaking, do you see Pep giving Moses and Alonso a chance? Can Fabregas press? Does he even have enough stamina to handle weekly 90 mins for Conte talkless of Pep? Is Matic as mobile as Fernandinho or does he have even 50% of Yaya's quality? Pedro was barely playing until Conte redefined his role. But even at that, compare Pedro/Willian to KDB, Sane, & Silva and explain to me how the CFC counterparts are better. Even Kelechi, a proven EPL scorer vs Batshuayi ... Really? On top he still went and picked Jesus and benched Kelechi & even Aguero at a point. But Pep didn't have more quality nor depth than Conte? Do you also want to compare City to CFC bench? My brother, abeg forget story. Pep fumbled big time relative to resources at hand and he wasn't the only rookie EPL manager this season.
"Quietly arrogant"?? :lol: :lol: I asked you to show me where he said something that suggested some haughty character that needed to be brought down a notch. Instead, you've come up with a perception that is disputable.

There is no coach that doesn't have issues with the media. It is more so when the coach can see the questioners do not understand the game. On top of that, it is difficult to control your emotions when you are questioned after a game, with a lot of stuff that may have happened that you didn't like.

I think what separates Guardiola with Borinho, apart from their approach, is that one played the game at high level and the other didn't. Borinho wants to hog the limelight that should belong to the players. He therefore prefers to stress his own importance more than any other coach I have observed.

As for your long story, these players at Chelski are better than their City equivalents:
1. Courtois
2. Moses
3. Alonso
4. Cahill
5. Luiz
6.Azpi
7. Kante
8. Hazard

This is a squad with Fab, Willian, etc on the bench.

The theory that City have a good squad is about 3 years old, when Yaya, Kompany, Silva, etc were at their best. Right now, City has probably 3 reliable players - Fernandinho, Aguero and Jesus (not the headless chicken).
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Re: Congrats to my man Zidane.

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benteke wrote: You have absolutely nailed it here.
We all remember how Pep had a blazing start and people thought we would see something amazing, and Pep started showing his arrogant side, making snide comments and picking fights with the likes of Yaya and his agent.
But one thing that surprised me is that he can be very humble, EPL humbled him in that respect, he even agreed that top 4 is a trophy.
Your comments about his squad are correct, I don't know why people now complain about John Stones yet it was Pep who moved on more solid defenders like Mangala and Demichelis for Stones.
He also had a pretty solid keeper whom he moved along in favor of Bravo.
:lol: :lol: :lol: Mangala and Demichelis solid??? :lol: :lol: :lol: Joe Hart solid??? :lol: :lol:

Yaya is past his best. Nothing arrogant about wanting to move him on.

Stop watching football with blinkers on. Show us some quotes that showed Pep was arrogant and I would accept he was humbled. You guys are very funny. The man knows more about football than you and me. He is a very intelligent man. And you have somehow convinced yourself that he saw things in England that shocked and humbled him. He knew what he was coming for. He knew the challenges. He knew he didn't have the talent he had at Barca or Bayern, so it was going to be harder work. Put Messi at City and they would win the league by Christmas. :lol:
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Re: Congrats to my man Zidane.

Post by ohsee »

cic old boy wrote:
benteke wrote: You have absolutely nailed it here.
We all remember how Pep had a blazing start and people thought we would see something amazing, and Pep started showing his arrogant side, making snide comments and picking fights with the likes of Yaya and his agent.
But one thing that surprised me is that he can be very humble, EPL humbled him in that respect, he even agreed that top 4 is a trophy.
Your comments about his squad are correct, I don't know why people now complain about John Stones yet it was Pep who moved on more solid defenders like Mangala and Demichelis for Stones.
He also had a pretty solid keeper whom he moved along in favor of Bravo.
:lol: :lol: :lol: Mangala and Demichelis solid??? :lol: :lol: :lol: Joe Hart solid??? :lol: :lol:

Yaya is past his best. Nothing arrogant about wanting to move him on.

Stop watching football with blinkers on. Show us some quotes that showed Pep was arrogant and I would accept he was humbled. You guys are very funny. The man knows more about football than you and me. He is a very intelligent man. And you have somehow convinced yourself that he saw things in England that shocked and humbled him. He knew what he was coming for. He knew the challenges. He knew he didn't have the talent he had at Barca or Bayern, so it was going to be harder work. Put Messi at City and they would win the league by Christmas. :lol:
Chief, I don't know about DiMichelis, but Mangala has been outstanding at Valencia. I saw several of the games he played. He was waaaay better than any of the CDs City have played this season. His only problem is that he cannot play the ball out of defence, but he is a rugged hardman, much like Kompany but without the ball skills.
http://www.mcfcwatch.com/2017/03/03/ffp ... -in-doubt/
Everyone at Valencia, in the stands and in the boardroom, agrees on one thing: Eliaquim Mangala has been one of the few great successes of a terrible season for Los Che.
http://en.valenciacf.com/ver/67150/mang ... nited.html
Eliaquim Mangala has become a pillar of the Valencia CF defence, with his imposing physique and blistering pace.
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Re: Congrats to my man Zidane.

Post by ohsee »

cic old boy wrote:
ohsee wrote: cic, you are dodging the key questions and giving us your free opinions instead. If coaches only contribute minor details, why not hire Moyes or Big Sam to lead Barcelona or Real? Surely these fellows could do just as well at Real? Real could reduce the salary cost of paying coaches fabulous sums and just hire journeymen for peanuts who can easily supply these minor details.

You have not explained why coaches like Mourinho win wherever they go. He won at Porto, winning league, Europa and Champions League with a small club from a backyard league. Then he went to Chelsea where Ranieri had been unable to win. He won two league titles with Ranieri's players, with the notable exception of Drogba and Robben, who were actually identified by Ranieri as players to purchase. He then went to Inter where he won league and Champions League again with a bunch of old men. He then went to Real where he won despite the dominance of Barca. Then he came back to Chelsea where he once again won the league in record time. This is all minor details? You really believe that coaching is not that important?

I know this is CE where we are all free to present our cost-free opinions. But the people who are involved in this matter on the inside, and put real money on the line, do not agree with you. They spend huge sums of money to get the right coach, and invest lots of resources in watching and wooing them. You need to explain why they do this.
Nna, football is a matter of opinions (with some more valid than others). For e.g. some coaches believe you got to have a system and then find players to fit, others believe you adjust the system to fit the players you have. Both opinions are valid to varying degrees.

Big Sam/Moyes could coach Barca – coaching is teaching. The fundamentals are the same. The devil is in the minor details. For e.g. Moyes is a better coach than Fergie, but Moyes had never won anything in his life. When Fergie was Manure coach, if things are going wrong, he can say to the players, continue to do it my way and it would turn out right. They would look at his medals and think he is probably right. Moyes is in trouble at the first sign that things are going wrong. Players would question him, think his ideas are probably why he has never won anything and start undermining him. The authority is not there. Zizou is similar to Fergie with the gravitas that comes from winning as a player.

Fergie won most of the stuff he won due to the strong influence of good coaches that were assisting on the training ground. Fergie hardly spent time on the training ground. Many of those good coaches could not cut it as the top man. It doesn’t mean they were not good coaches. It means that minor details such as motivation, is the player settled at home, is he playing for the manager, etc are the stuff that turn also-rans into winners.

Luis Enrique and Tito Vilanova were not that superior to Big Sam or Moyes. And they won stuff with Barca. It should tell you that the importance of coaches can be overestimated.

Borinho had big budgets at Porto, Chelski, Inter, Real, Manure, etc. and very good and deep squads too. Let him try winning the league with Southampton or Boavista. The Chelski side he inherited came 2nd in the league. It just required minor details to take them to the top. The same Borinho was nearly relegated with Chelski last season and came 6th with Manure after spending nearly £200m.

What I wrote isn’t new. Many in the game say and know it. It is a surprise you are only reading about these views on CE. Coaching is about minor details that bring about minor improvements. For e.g. Barca like to spread out the game using wide midfielders and attacking fullbacks. So the pitch at the Nou Camp is wider than most. When Chelski played Barca, Borinho had the pitch narrowed at Stamford Bridge. He also allowed the grass to grow a little longer to make it difficult for a passing game. These are examples of minor details that can give you a slight advantage, which could turn a loss into a draw, or a draw into a win. But you still need good players to execute.

There are other minor details like rotating how you foul a dangerous player like Messi so you minimise the risk of a red card.
Hiring big-name coaches is more than about coaching. Global brands need a high profile figure as the face of the club. They help attract sponsorship, big players, etc. It is about branding.
Let's agree to disagree. If you want to believe that coaching is a matter of minor details, fine. Your prerogative. The people who put their money where their mouth is do not agree with you.
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Oga Ohsee, just b/c you heard something on CE that challenges your perceptions, doesn't mean it ain't right. If you won't take it from CIC, take it from Joachim Low, a WC-winning coach. He said in this interview from 2012: "At the highest level, it's often only small details which decide a win or a defeat".
http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro/news/newsid=1783396.html

Nobody masters the small details more than Germans. Do you know that b/4 WCs, they measure the pitches they will play at the event and practice on pitches exactly the same size?
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Re: Congrats to my man Zidane.

Post by benteke »

cic old boy wrote:
benteke wrote: You have absolutely nailed it here.
We all remember how Pep had a blazing start and people thought we would see something amazing, and Pep started showing his arrogant side, making snide comments and picking fights with the likes of Yaya and his agent.
But one thing that surprised me is that he can be very humble, EPL humbled him in that respect, he even agreed that top 4 is a trophy.
Your comments about his squad are correct, I don't know why people now complain about John Stones yet it was Pep who moved on more solid defenders like Mangala and Demichelis for Stones.
He also had a pretty solid keeper whom he moved along in favor of Bravo.
:lol: :lol: :lol: Mangala and Demichelis solid??? :lol: :lol: :lol: Joe Hart solid??? :lol: :lol:

Yaya is past his best. Nothing arrogant about wanting to move him on.

Stop watching football with blinkers on. Show us some quotes that showed Pep was arrogant and I would accept he was humbled. You guys are very funny. The man knows more about football than you and me. He is a very intelligent man. And you have somehow convinced yourself that he saw things in England that shocked and humbled him. He knew what he was coming for. He knew the challenges. He knew he didn't have the talent he had at Barca or Bayern, so it was going to be harder work. Put Messi at City and they would win the league by Christmas. :lol:
This below was a bit arrogant:
“In many other countries when one guy has the ball at his feet the people know what is going to happen. Here the football is more unpredictable because the ball is in the air more than on the floor. I only needed to see one game to understand English football: Swansea 5 Crystal Palace 4. Nine goals, eight from set pieces. That is English football and I have to adapt.”
https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... -city-form

Then also his sarcastic comment after winning at Old Trafford that Bournemouth plays the best football or something like that.

On Mangala and Demichelis, what i am saying is that these were more solid defenders than John Stones, and Pep moved them on and replaced them with Stones, and now it's no longer Pep's fault, but Stones.
Same with Hart. Then we are now told it's not his fault.

He might know football inside out, but i think he underestimated this English adventure, and that's why there are excuses for him from guys like you, unlike with Conte.
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Re: Congrats to my man Zidane.

Post by Comrade Machel »

CIC surely you gotta admit that shipping out Mangala and Hart without giving them a chance is the height of arrogance and a know it all coach. For the record please state whether you believe that Stones is a better football player than Demechlis and Mangala. How about freezing out Yaya to the cost of the team. I believe had the yaya thing not happened City would have stayed in the race till the end. That was poor decision making and vanity at the expense of results. Do you believe Bravo is a better goalkeeper than Joe Hart? Even if he is at least he was tried and tested in the city system and the EPL unlike the calamitous Bravo. Wouldn't it have been more prudent to give Bravo a run but have Hart on standby?

Strangely I kinda agree that coaches aren't as important and once raised this point when I first joined CE. I am a football nobody and don't claim to know much about tactics but after a crash course some one like me might manage to keep Barcelona or Madrid in the top 4 of LA liga. The players are simply that good. We see the same thing in F1 where the car can change a drivers fortunes.
Ratlala :thumbs: :D

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Re: Congrats to my man Zidane.

Post by ohsee »

cic old boy wrote:Oga Ohsee, just b/c you heard something on CE that challenges your perceptions, doesn't mean it ain't right. If you won't take it from CIC, take it from Joachim Low, a WC-winning coach. He said in this interview from 2012: "At the highest level, it's often only small details which decide a win or a defeat".
http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro/news/newsid=1783396.html

Nobody masters the small details more than Germans. Do you know that b/4 WCs, they measure the pitches they will play at the event and practice on pitches exactly the same size?
:shock: :shock:
cic, I think you misunderstand what Low is saying. When he is talking about small details being the difference, it does not mean that any tactical ignoramus can win the game. It just means that at the top level, the ability of the coaches and teams is so uniformly high that marginal things make the difference. Not that coaches don't matter, or that anybody can coach a good team to victory.

What Low says is rather obvious when you understand what he really means. Also, I guess you did not see what he said here:
"We have to see that our visions are implemented and that the players understand our approach, our philosophy and how we want to play," said the former VfB Stuttgart, Fenerbahçe SK and FK Austria Wien coach.
I don't have to explain that for you, do I? The coach has told you the players should understand his vision, his approach, his philosophy and how he wants them to play. This is clearly big picture strategy, organization and tactics, but you still think all a great coach does is take care of small details.

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