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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:00 am 
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How would you rank Zinedine Zidane compared to Franz Beckenbauer?
Both have won the World Cup as players. With Zidane scoring in the final.
Franz has won the WC as coach.
Zidane has now won back to back CL, won the Spanish league. Has not yet coached a national team, but this will eventually come.
It helps, if you coach one of the best players in the world. But, many people coached CR7 ... and with little success ... including "the Special one (Jose)". And the Fat one (Rafael Benitez).


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 5:51 am 
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I am sorry but I am getting annoyed now with people waxing lyrical about madrid tonight. This was more juventus fokking up than madrid doing anything special. Maybe its those little things CIC talked about. Ronaldos first goal had that same exact chance fallen to Higuain we all know he wouldnt have scored (proving players factor more than coaching) I feel Allegri should have arrested the madrid ascendency but at the same there is nothing a coach can do when one of the so called key players Dybala decides to have a stinker. That played into Zidanes hand and even he wouldn't have foreseen that as great as he supposedly is. Two of the madrid goals were deflections so we can rule out his influence there and out it down to luck. Higuain was great against Monaco but chose this game to revert to type. In the end I think at the very least its coach 50% any players 50% though I lean more towards players. I cant remember who it was but they said when blocking a shot especially in the danger area you never turn away and if you have to it should only be the head. Khedira that nitwit :curse: A coach can prepare the players till kingdom come but silly mistakes wil cost you the game

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:19 am 
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Does the rule that considers Peperempe an inheritance merchant apply to Zidane? Is Zizou winning with, arguably, one of the best teams of this era, or is he winning as a consequence of managerial pedigree? Will he need to prove his pudding elsewhere or does that only apply to Peperempe?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 6:43 am 
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Coach wrote:
Does the rule that considers Peperempe an inheritance merchant apply to Zidane? Is Zizou winning with, arguably, one of the best teams of this era, or is he winning as a consequence of managerial pedigree? Will he need to prove his pudding elsewhere or does that only apply to Peperempe?


And How many coaches do you know that has won the champions league and the spanish league title with the worst team of this era that that should now be the criteria?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 9:52 am 
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^In the world of axons and action potentials, t'is all or nothing. A concept worthy of embrace in discourse regarding such matters.

Zidane has achieved the unachievable, the ne plus ultra of a successful defence of a Champions League title. On both occasions, the initial win and the defence, could it be argued, the scales tilted to his favour? Has he ever been armed with the underdog, anything less than the acclaimed world's best left back, one of its best centre halves, arguably the best centre-mid pairing since Xavi and Iniesta, two of the top three most expensive players in the world, Britain's best player, France's best striker and one of the true greats of the game?

...When Peperempe was enamoured with much the same, when the tale of the tapes sketched a hammer fisted Behemoth before a powder punched flyweight, success was a consequence of his components rather than his acumen. What makes Zidane's achievements any different? Does he need to take the helm of a Premier League oaf to prove his pudding or is the court marsupial in his case?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 12:57 pm 
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ohsee wrote:
Zidane, who does not coach :winking:, has won another Champs League. Congrats to the great man.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 2:54 pm 
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Coach wrote:
^In the world of axons and action potentials, t'is all or nothing. A concept worthy of embrace in discourse regarding such matters.

Zidane has achieved the unachievable, the ne plus ultra of a successful defence of a Champions League title. On both occasions, the initial win and the defence, could it be argued, the scales tilted to his favour? Has he ever been armed with the underdog, anything less than the acclaimed world's best left back, one of its best centre halves, arguably the best centre-mid pairing since Xavi and Iniesta, two of the top three most expensive players in the world, Britain's best player, France's best striker and one of the true greats of the game?

...When Peperempe was enamoured with much the same, when the tale of the tapes sketched a hammer fisted Behemoth before a powder punched flyweight, success was a consequence of his components rather than his acumen. What makes Zidane's achievements any different? Does he need to take the helm of a Premier League oaf to prove his pudding or is the court marsupial in his case?

I enjoy reading CE in the morning. Laughter is indeed good merecine. Pep is a great coach, even though he is focking up at City. Zizou has CLEARLY shown that his wins are not flukes. Others, armed with similar weapons, did they do what he did? That is the real argument folks. It is a CE mug's (abi na maga?) argument to say that until he kills a charging tiger with a penknife, he will not be considered great. Yes, he killed that charging tiger, or charging tigers with one of the best weapons available, but Carlo Ancelotti, Rafael Benitez, Manuel Pellegrini, and Jose Mourinho were unable to do what he has done with the same or similar weapons.

Please give credit to whom it is due. Zidane has done what his predecessors could not do, which is win the Champions League in his first season, then win a La Liga title that had eluded his two predecessors, and then repeat as a Champions League winner, something that has eluded all managers. What's more, he beat a team that was expected to defeat Real handily because "Real's defense is vulnerable." My man, Real were the underdogs here, and they whacked a team that had so easily destroyed Real's only real competition in La Liga, Barcelona.

Zidane's da man. Would Big Sam have been able to do this with the same team? The unequivocal answer is no. As great a coach as Mourinho could not. End of story.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:00 pm 
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bepanda wrote:
How would you rank Zinedine Zidane compared to Franz Beckenbauer?
Both have won the World Cup as players. With Zidane scoring in the final.
Franz has won the WC as coach.
Zidane has now won back to back CL, won the Spanish league. Has not yet coached a national team, but this will eventually come.
It helps, if you coach one of the best players in the world. But, many people coached CR7 ... and with little success ... including "the Special one (Jose)". And the Fat one (Rafael Benitez).

When Zidane wins a World Cup as a coach for France, I will rank him above Beckenbauer. It is an adage in soccer that great players do not make great coaches, but these two are bucking that stereotype.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:01 pm 
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1naija wrote:
Coach wrote:
Does the rule that considers Peperempe an inheritance merchant apply to Zidane? Is Zizou winning with, arguably, one of the best teams of this era, or is he winning as a consequence of managerial pedigree? Will he need to prove his pudding elsewhere or does that only apply to Peperempe?


And How many coaches do you know that has won the champions league and the spanish league title with the worst team of this era that that should now be the criteria?

Biko help me to told him.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 3:47 pm 
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Samora Machel wrote:
I am sorry but I am getting annoyed now with people waxing lyrical about madrid tonight. This was more juventus fokking up than madrid doing anything special. Maybe its those little things CIC talked about. Ronaldos first goal had that same exact chance fallen to Higuain we all know he wouldnt have scored (proving players factor more than coaching) I feel Allegri should have arrested the madrid ascendency but at the same there is nothing a coach can do when one of the so called key players Dybala decides to have a stinker. That played into Zidanes hand and even he wouldn't have foreseen that as great as he supposedly is. Two of the madrid goals were deflections so we can rule out his influence there and out it down to luck. Higuain was great against Monaco but chose this game to revert to type. In the end I think at the very least its coach 50% any players 50% though I lean more towards players. I cant remember who it was but they said when blocking a shot especially in the danger area you never turn away and if you have to it should only be the head. Khedira that nitwit :curse: A coach can prepare the players till kingdom come but silly mistakes wil cost you the game

Madrid won b/c they have better players. Ronaldo would score with his eyes closed the chances Higuain misses with his eyes open.

Juve's best player is Dani Alves and he is 34. He was dominant in the 1st half and tired in the 2nd. Higuain and Khedira are Madrid rejects. Dybala is clearly not the real deal. Juve were already handicapped by the gulf in quality and then you have another brainless Chelski reject like Cuadrado letting his team down.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:10 pm 
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cic old boy wrote:
Samora Machel wrote:
I am sorry but I am getting annoyed now with people waxing lyrical about madrid tonight. This was more juventus fokking up than madrid doing anything special. Maybe its those little things CIC talked about. Ronaldos first goal had that same exact chance fallen to Higuain we all know he wouldnt have scored (proving players factor more than coaching) I feel Allegri should have arrested the madrid ascendency but at the same there is nothing a coach can do when one of the so called key players Dybala decides to have a stinker. That played into Zidanes hand and even he wouldn't have foreseen that as great as he supposedly is. Two of the madrid goals were deflections so we can rule out his influence there and out it down to luck. Higuain was great against Monaco but chose this game to revert to type. In the end I think at the very least its coach 50% any players 50% though I lean more towards players. I cant remember who it was but they said when blocking a shot especially in the danger area you never turn away and if you have to it should only be the head. Khedira that nitwit :curse: A coach can prepare the players till kingdom come but silly mistakes wil cost you the game

Madrid won b/c they have better players. Ronaldo would score with his eyes closed the chances Higuain misses with his eyes open.

Juve's best player is Dani Alves and he is 34. He was dominant in the 1st half and tired in the 2nd. Higuain and Khedira are Madrid rejects. Dybala is clearly not the real deal. Juve were already handicapped by the gulf in quality and then you have another brainless Chelski reject like Cuadrado letting his team down.

Chief, are Messi, Suarez and Neymar also not the real deal? This same team shut these three down completely in 180 minutes of football. The same Dybala scored a spectacular goal against Barca in their meeting. What happened to him in the final?

I'll suggest to you what I said in the other thread. It is down which coach worked out tactics best suited to neutralizing the other team. Juve may have imagined that because they beat Barcelona, they did not need to change against Real. But coaches study teams and their formations via tape and technical discussions, and figure out methods of exploiting weaknesses. Zidane has done it more than once against another great defensive team, Atletico. That Real came out in the second half and dominated after an indifferent first half is down to team talk and an insistence on following the tactics worked out in practice.

By the way, I thought, and still think that Juve had the best all round team ON PAPER. On the day, they just met a great team led by a tactical master.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:47 pm 
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ohsee wrote:
Chief, are Messi, Suarez and Neymar also not the real deal? This same team shut these three down completely in 180 minutes of football. The same Dybala scored a spectacular goal against Barca in their meeting. What happened to him in the final?

I'll suggest to you what I said in the other thread. It is down which coach worked out tactics best suited to neutralizing the other team. Juve may have imagined that because they beat Barcelona, they did not need to change against Real. But coaches study teams and their formations via tape and technical discussions, and figure out methods of exploiting weaknesses. Zidane has done it more than once against another great defensive team, Atletico. That Real came out in the second half and dominated after an indifferent first half is down to team talk and an insistence on following the tactics worked out in practice.

By the way, I thought, and still think that Juve had the best all round team ON PAPER. On the day, they just met a great team led by a tactical master.

Nna, you are talking like a typical CE. There is something called "form" in football. It fluctuates for a variety of reasons. Barca have been shite too many times this season. Real have a better squad than Barca. MSN have not been at their best this season, especially Neymar. On top of all that, there was a mutiny in the dressing room against the departing coach. All these things affect a team's form.

This is a team that was nearly eliminated by PSG and got lucky in the 2nd leg. Their luck ran out against Juve. It doesn't mean Juve are a great team. They caught Barca at the right time.

Real have better players than Juve. The team with better players will usually win, all things being equal. Even when Juve were dominant in the 1st half and could have easily gone in at the break 3-1, their left side was porous and I knew it was a matter of time b/4 Real exploited Alex Sandro's brainlessness.

Apart from Buffon, the 3 centrebacks and Dani Alves, this Juve team is very average. Khedira is a headless chicken. I bet you don't remember Pjanic played against Nigeria when we beat Bosnia at the WC. He was that "memorable". Let's not talk about Higuain. Give Zizou this Juve team and Allegri Real and the result would be similar. For Juve to beat Real, they have to catch them on a bad day, with all Juve players playing the game of their lives and Real having a stinker and then being unlucky. Real got the breaks - 2 goals from deflected shots, a sending off, etc.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 4:55 pm 
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cic old boy wrote:
ohsee wrote:
Chief, are Messi, Suarez and Neymar also not the real deal? This same team shut these three down completely in 180 minutes of football. The same Dybala scored a spectacular goal against Barca in their meeting. What happened to him in the final?

I'll suggest to you what I said in the other thread. It is down which coach worked out tactics best suited to neutralizing the other team. Juve may have imagined that because they beat Barcelona, they did not need to change against Real. But coaches study teams and their formations via tape and technical discussions, and figure out methods of exploiting weaknesses. Zidane has done it more than once against another great defensive team, Atletico. That Real came out in the second half and dominated after an indifferent first half is down to team talk and an insistence on following the tactics worked out in practice.

By the way, I thought, and still think that Juve had the best all round team ON PAPER. On the day, they just met a great team led by a tactical master.

Nna, you are talking like a typical CE. There is something called "form" in football. It fluctuates for a variety of reasons. Barca have been shite too many times this season. Real have a better squad than Barca. MSN have not been at their best this season, especially Neymar. On top of all that, there was a mutiny in the dressing room against the departing coach. All these things affect a team's form.

This is a team that was nearly eliminated by PSG and got lucky in the 2nd leg. Their luck ran out against Juve. It doesn't mean Juve are a great team. They caught Barca at the right time.

Real have better players than Juve. The team with better players will usually win, all things being equal. Even when Juve were dominant in the 1st half and could have easily gone in at the break 3-1, their left side was porous and I knew it was a matter of time b/4 Real exploited Alex Sandro's brainlessness.

Apart from Buffon, the 3 centrebacks and Dani Alves, this Juve team is very average. Khedira is a headless chicken. I bet you don't remember Pjanic played against Nigeria when we beat Bosnia at the WC. He was that "memorable". Let's not talk about Higuain. Give Zizou this Juve team and Allegri Real and the result would be similar. For Juve to beat Real, they have to catch them on a bad day, with all Juve players playing the game of their lives and Real having a stinker and then being unlucky. Real got the breaks - 2 goals from deflected shots, a sending off, etc.



I agree. One way to look at is how many of the Juve first 11 would start for Madrid. Dani Alves, Chielini, Buffon and maybe Bazagli thats it. Its a mismatch in talent. That Dybala is nothing but a flash in the pan nothing more :roll:

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 04, 2017 7:44 pm 
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cic old boy wrote:
Nna, you are talking like a typical CE. There is something called "form" in football. It fluctuates for a variety of reasons.

:D
Nna, if I sound like a typical CE, you sound just like the below average CEs who are always fouling the site with platitudes and unfalsifiable positions masquerading as sense. By the way, "unfalsifiable" means that it is a position that has no conditions in which it can be refuted, and is therefore nonsense.

So "form" is the reason that Barca did not win la Liga and the Champions league? This is an idea from the 1960s that is so nebulous that it can be used to explain anything. Back then, it was usually applied to individual players who suffered a "loss of form" when their performance dipped. The term that explains nothing and everything is absolutely meaningless in any serious debate, especially one in which the team in question has three of the best five forwards in the world, one a contender for greatest player of all time, has one of the best centerbacks in Europe, and in Iniesta, a history class dribbler and midfield general, a team that actually lost the la Liga title by the skin of their teeth. I know Barca is your team, and it pains you that Real won, but let's make sense here. I like Barca too, but that does not prevent me from making sense and speaking the truth.

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Barca have been shite too many times this season. Real have a better squad than Barca. MSN have not been at their best this season, especially Neymar. On top of all that, there was a mutiny in the dressing room against the departing coach. All these things affect a team's form.

Your first three sentences are what I spoke about that explain everything and explain nothing. That Real have a better squad than Barca is comical. Was that true when the same team was beating Real, and when they beat Real a couple of weeks ago? The team came second by the skin of their teeth. They could easily have come first. What has changed in Real? What is the factor that has transformed Real from a second position team to one that wins a league title and two consecutive Champs leagues, an unprecedented event? I leave you to answer that to yourself, and to the forum if you choose to be honest.

Quote:
This is a team that was nearly eliminated by PSG and got lucky in the 2nd leg. Their luck ran out against Juve. It doesn't mean Juve are a great team. They caught Barca at the right time.

Really? Conceding 3 goals in 12 Champions league games is not great? OK. Iz alright.

Quote:
Real have better players than Juve. The team with better players will usually win, all things being equal. Even when Juve were dominant in the 1st half and could have easily gone in at the break 3-1, their left side was porous and I knew it was a matter of time b/4 Real exploited Alex Sandro's brainlessness.

More unfalsifiable stuff. The Real team has not changed much since 2012. Why were they not usually winning? When Porto won the Champs league, were they the best team? When Inter won, were they the best? When Leicester won were they the best? So when ManU dominated the Premier league, you agree then they were always the best? Why did they not continue being the best when Sir Alex left? You will present a ridiculous excuse because you have painted yourself into an unfalsifiable corner. Concede. You are wrong. In other cases, you have argued differently. You once argued that the reason Brasil lost the WC at home is because Big Phil is a lousy coach. So your position changes as necessary.

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Apart from Buffon, the 3 centrebacks and Dani Alves, this Juve team is very average. Khedira is a headless chicken. I bet you don't remember Pjanic played against Nigeria when we beat Bosnia at the WC. He was that "memorable". Let's not talk about Higuain. Give Zizou this Juve team and Allegri Real and the result would be similar. For Juve to beat Real, they have to catch them on a bad day, with all Juve players playing the game of their lives and Real having a stinker and then being unlucky. Real got the breaks - 2 goals from deflected shots, a sending off, etc.

Right. Good excuses. The fact is Real won by finding ways to slice open a previously airtight defence. That is what we all know happened. 4:1 says it all. Your opinions--and that is what they are in the face of such a crushing victory against a hitherto uncrushable opponent--is just unfalsifiable spin. All hail Zizou.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 2:48 am 
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 3:18 am 
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ohsee wrote:
More unfalsifiable stuff. The Real team has not changed much since 2012. Why were they not usually winning? When Porto won the Champs league, were they the best team? When Inter won, were they the best? When Leicester won were they the best? So when ManU dominated the Premier league, you agree then they were always the best? Why did they not continue being the best when Sir Alex left? You will present a ridiculous excuse because you have painted yourself into an unfalsifiable corner. Concede. You are wrong. In other cases, you have argued differently. You once argued that the reason Brasil lost the WC at home is because Big Phil is a lousy coach. So your position changes as necessary.


Pa, you nailed it. In one thread, some of those Leicester players are average players but here, just to support his argument, they have suddenly come good.

cic old boy wrote:
ohsee wrote:
How many good players did Leicester have?

Ngolo Kante, Mahrez, Schmeichel, Vardy....


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Prince wrote:
I said it in one thread, Kane is too Selfish, go with either vardy and Sturridge........ It was a give and go between alli and Sturridge

They are all over-hyped average players.


viewtopic.php?f=1&t=272444&p=4803346&hilit=vardy#p4803346

In the last 9 years, that Barca have dominated the La Liga, Real won it 2 times in 9 years, once by Mourinho and now Zidane. Diego Simeone also did one over Barca. If not coaching input, how did they turn the tables against Barca? Mourinho did it with a record breaking points haul, changing Real's approach to the game after his first classic ended in disaster. What players did Simeone have...even up till now compared to Barca? Zidane's HTH against Barca was worse off but he still won the league.

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tfco wrote:
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:23 am 
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Oga Ohsee,

I have always had a non-scientific theory, based on reading posts on CE, that our brothers that live in North America have a very shaky understanding of the game. It may have something to do with not living in a country that eats, dreams and lives for football. Your post does nothing to change this vew. :taunt:

A footballer is a human being and like anyone else at the workplace, they have good days and bad for a variety of reasons. The best tend to perform consistently at a certain level most times, but still have off days. Coaches/managers use all sorts of techniques/psychology, etc to get a level of consistency from the team, including managing their rest, squad rotation to keep them "fresh", etc. It is laughable to think that "form" is something from the past.

Barca under Pep/Tito used to prepare in pre-season for the players to play at a very high level from the start of the season to the Christmas break, by which time they should have accumulated a huge lead in terms of points to account for a drop in form around Jan/Feb, and then start peaking from March to May. It revolves around physical and mental preparation. No player performs at 100% level every match. Someone like Messi could be at 50% and that would be enough to destroy Valencia, but he may need to be at 99% to play well against Real.

The Barca team this season have 5 or 6 high quality players, but no decent rightback and not enough depth in the squad. Iniesta is not the player he was a few years ago. He can't do it all season and no longer has enough gas in the tank for a high-intensity 90mins.

If you watched Barca week in, weak out, you would know that Neymar and Suarez had too many off days. This is why they lost 4 games, including a 4-1 defeat to Celta Vigo. You win the league on the basis of the depth of your squad. The players Barca signed as back-up for the superstars have not cut it - Paco Alcacer, Andres Gomes, Denis Suarez, Arda Turan, etc. You need those guys when the main men are injured, or when you want to rest them after they have come back from a South American WC qualifier. Most top teams that have internationals (esp South American) tend to lose matches that follow the international break or the midweek CL games. The opposition, like a Celta Vigo, would have had one week to prepare for that match. Tiredness affects form.

My North American brothers don't seem to understand these things. :biggrin:

Barca lost the league b/c they dropped too many points when their top players were not in form and the replacements were not up to scratch. The Real squad is deeper. Nothing to do with who I like or not like. You clearly don't understand the point about squads. Barca beat Real, but would then lose games to teams that Real beat silly. This is b/c Zizou could rotate, bring in squad players and get results. When Barca tried that they either lost or drew. A league campaign is a hard slog and you also have internationals and the CL. You don't win it with 11 brilliant players. Those guys will be injured, tired, lose form, suspended, etc. Then the squad players need to step up. I didn't know I had to explain this.

Barca have been dominant since 2008, with Real playing 2nd fiddle. Barca's dominance is related to Xavi, Iniesta, Messi, etc. The only constant is Messi, but the supporting acts retire, are getting old, some need time to fit in, etc. To remain dominant you have to buy well/have quality youngsters coming through from the academy like Busquets in 2008. Unlike Barca, Real bought well in the last 2/3 seasons and have had better academy players breaking through. To imagine that Real winning the league is just b/c they changed the coach, and nothing to do with the opposition, is funny. Barca is a living example of how difficult it is to stay at the top. If complacency sets in, more motivated teams would shoot you down in no time.

While you may describe Real as a 2nd placed team during Barca's dominance, it doesn't tell the entire story. For e.g. under Pellegrini, they broke their points record, but still finished 2nd. They had more points in that season than Real had this season and still finished 2nd. That should tell you that if Barca's standards had slipped just a bit, Pellegrini would have won the league.

Juve defend well, but are not a great team by any stretch of the imagination. I have already conceded that the 3 centrebacks, Buffon and Alves are top quality. So not sure why you are telling me about how many goals they conceded.

Real were not winning since 2012 b/c Barca were dominant. Barca only needed to not reach their usual standards for Real to win. See point about Pellegrini. Porto, Inter, Leicester, Greece, etc won by doing the same things - solid defensively and devastating counters. It can work, but it is difficult to sustain success playing that way - as each of those teams proved subsequently. Borinho brought that strategy to Real, won the league and bombed the next season.

Brazil lost b/c Big Phil is a crap coach, who picked a bunch of European-style robots that were over-reliant on Neymar for imagination and got blasted 7-1 at home. But you seem to forget that Big Phil also won the WC when he had quality - Real Ronaldo, Rivaldo, Ronaldinho, etc. That should tell you who wins games.

Football is a matter of opinions. Some are more informed than others.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 8:38 am 
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anointed wrote:
Pa, you nailed it. In one thread, some of those Leicester players are average players but here, just to support his argument, they have suddenly come good.

cic old boy wrote:
ohsee wrote:
How many good players did Leicester have?

Ngolo Kante, Mahrez, Schmeichel, Vardy....


cic old boy wrote:
Prince wrote:
I said it in one thread, Kane is too Selfish, go with either vardy and Sturridge........ It was a give and go between alli and Sturridge

They are all over-hyped average players.


viewtopic.php?f=1&t=272444&p=4803346&hilit=vardy#p4803346

In the last 9 years, that Barca have dominated the La Liga, Real won it 2 times in 9 years, once by Mourinho and now Zidane. Diego Simeone also did one over Barca. If not coaching input, how did they turn the tables against Barca? Mourinho did it with a record breaking points haul, changing Real's approach to the game after his first classic ended in disaster. What players did Simeone have...even up till now compared to Barca? Zidane's HTH against Barca was worse off but he still won the league.

Another one who doesn't understand context.

Vardy is an England international and was among the top scorers when Leicester won the league. So in the context of the good players Leicester had when they won the league, he is right up there with Kante and Mahrez. The other thread you are quoting is about international football and the Euros. At international level, I wouldn't call Vardy a good player. I would call him average. The level of football is higher at the Euros than at the EPL. So good EPL players are average at that level.

While a team contributes to its success, that success doesn't happen in isolation from the competition. The 3 times Barca didn't win the league in the last 9 years seemed to coincide with upheavals at the club. Borinho won in Pep's last season, Simeone won in Tata Martino's one and only season, Zizou won in Enrique's last season. Each time, the knowledge that the coach was leaving had some impact on the motivation of the players. On top of that, it is difficult to stay at the top for 9 years. I doubt if any team has won back to back for that length of time. You can't remove the success of Borinho, Simeone and Zizou from the context of what was happening with their main rival.

You guys just love to believe in simplistic notions about a coach with a magic wand.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 10, 2017 4:03 pm 
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@Mazi, this marsupaulized court in session, does it feature Aborigines blowing Louis Armstrongs on the didgeridoo? Could you kindly tender your opinion on Peperempe's haul whilst at the helm at Barcelona?


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 8:58 am 
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"Funny old game".

5 league games in, Madrid have not won at home - 2 draws and 1 loss last night to Real Betis.

Zizou is no longer looking that clever.

Who was it that said:
Quote:
There is something called "form" in football. It fluctuates for a variety of reasons.


After Madrid bushwhacked Barca in the Super Cup I was thinking they were going to dominate for a long time.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 21, 2017 10:55 am 
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cic old boy wrote:
"Funny old game".

5 league games in, Madrid have not won at home - 2 draws and 1 loss last night to Real Betis.

Zizou is no longer looking that clever.

Who was it that said:
Quote:
There is something called "form" in football. It fluctuates for a variety of reasons.


After Madrid bushwhacked Barca in the Super Cup I was thinking they were going to dominate for a long time.


I have never seen Real Madrid that flat and at a certain point Sergio Ramos was channeling a certain Aaron Ramsey(#$% position, I ma do it roy of the rover style). He was popping off from all different types of positions, striker, midfielder, winger e.t.c. One thing I have realized about madrid is that Isco is the brains of that team, forget the Bales and Ronaldos of this world. Without him ticking that team is flat and other teams have finally realized his importance to madrid unlike before where the focus was on the above mentioned a-listers.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 23, 2017 1:38 pm 
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Oga cic try for dis thread :mrgreen: .

Madrid's surprising start is more on the players than Zizou. In this Betis match and the other home matches they created plenty of chances but couldn't finish. Ronaldo had 12 shots in this match including a glorious 2H sitter and he rarely hit the target! There was a touch of chaos to Madrid's play though, Isco wasn't at his best. They seemed to be pumping the ball into the box and rushing forward with abandon. That left them vulnerable at the back and with more composure Betis could have punished them earlier.


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