Germany 3 - 1 Cameroun (FT) Confed Cup

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Re: Germany 3 - 1 Cameroun (FT) Confed Cup

Post by txj »

platinum wrote:
Enugu II wrote:In my own opinion, it appears that people in CE think that this Cameroon team is so poor and that we would walk all over them. That is a wrong conclusion, to be sure.

While I liked Oyongo, he would not have made much difference on this team. He was my favorite Cameroonian defender at the AFCON but in one-and-one situations. Cameroon is good and they will prove it against Nigeria in August/September. While I believe that SE will win, it will not be easy. Take that to the bank.

This German team is stronger than many of Europe's best. I wonder whether the narrative will change for most of you when this German team meets and beats European champion -- Portugal -- in the final? Already, they showed what they could do with the game v Chile. The German team is not made of amateurs, you should note. This is a very good team devoid of some of their regular stars but certainly nothing to sniff at. It is not a C team by any stretch of imagination.

Back to Cameroon, Cameroon has an attack that let it down in this game. Aboubakar is really not much to write about. First, even when there were open shots created by shifting the ball outside the box, the shots were not taken or attempted very late. At the other end, the Germans were willing to attempt shots from outside the box at the slightest daylight. Though Bassagog created problems for the German defense with his pace and tricky moves, he was like Moses Simon as in poor end product. Defensively, Tekieu lost his man a few times but it was also because Ngadeu and Mabouka did not manage the offside trap well allowing men behind the defense in safe spots. In fact, I felt defensively that the team did better than they did against Chile who repeatedly came through those lines particularly in the opening half of that earlier game. The reality is that the SE will not be able to get behind that defense as often because our strikers rarely exploit space behind the defense in the way the Germans or Chileans did. That should be noted. Thus, the fact that the Cameroonian defense played compact will prove to be huge challenge for the SE limiting the SE to wingers crossing the ball and not to passes behind the defense as the Chileans or Germans did.

IMHO, I take two major things from watching the Cameroonians at this Confed Cup: (1) They will be very tough competition for Nigeria, and (2) The German team is strong. Ignore the names and focus on how they play.

Sorry, there was nothing compact about that defense. When Germany revved the engines in the second half, they lit Cameroon to shreds with consummate ease. And they really didn't do anything special, they focused more on forward play instead of the counter game, moved the ball faster, sent runners off the ball, exploited all the spaces behind Cameroon's defense. Of course you're right when you say Germany are special but the fact is they didn't do anything many decent teams cannot do. The big problem here is I've not seen the Eagles do any of these basics in recent games so it';s not exactly something to feel confident about.
Nothing more to add really...

Until we improve the refereeing standards at AFCON, we will continue to occasionally get champions like this...
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Re: Germany 2 - 1 Cameroun (2nd Half) Confed Cup

Post by metalalloy »

platinum wrote:
metalalloy wrote:
txj wrote:
Rogermilla wrote:
gochino wrote:
anointed wrote:Cameroun just so heavy, immobile and statuesque like camels in defence...maybe the name Camelruin is apt afterall
Especially that guy that dyed his hair blond. He is just too immobile for a defender. Caught ball watching several times,even in the first and third goal.
When you have a natural right back in Fai playing left back and a donkey in Mabouka playing right back, it messed up the defensive chemistry that Teikeu and Ngadeu built.
Its not the personnel or their starting positions. Its a total lack of defensive integrity in the shape. Their were gaps all over the defensive block, and they were being moved around like pinballs...

Look at Teikeu unable to read movements, being nutmegged in the six yard box, unaware of blind side runs....

These guys lack even the basics...what a pathetic bunch!

They won the AFC, thanks in large part to African refs letting them kick, esp Senegal, off the park!
Fashi watching that German team play defense is a thing of beauty. They no dey stress, you simply see two rows of 4 just shifting in unison. Kai! no one person harrases you, but pass ball make we see! And then with transition, nothing special, you could see it all day, they simply progress in the middle, shift the ball to the wings and play that dangerous ground ball across the face of the goal. SO hard to defend even though you know its coming!

The day we an learn to attack and more importantly defend as a unit, we will be unstoppable.
If you were ever fortunate enough to watch a military parade at Dodan Barracks, you would have seen a group of men in lockstep, moving as one, showing discipline for hours. That's exactly what we need with the Eagles. Maybe we should find a brigade commandant somewhere, old school drill sergeant who cares nothing about money and that type of stuff. :rotf: :rotf:

My biggest fear for Cameroon going up against Germany was exactly that. The Germans play with a precision in defense and attack that is built to destroy and make a mockery of teams who think doing that wrk is a joke...teams who think national pride, muscle and talent is enough. (*see Brazil in 2014). This is a German team who've been together for a couple weeks doing all this damage to the world's finest teams (*not just Cameroon...they made Chile look toothless in t 2nd half of their game). We need to have a clear idea of who we want to be, then work on it time and time and time again until it's second nature. The consistency is never there with the Eagles because we just don't know who we are so we can't play as a unit when we don't know that. Somedays, if we're feeling it, we are unstoppable. Other days? South Africa (*who know what they are and who they are) will come into our homeground and go all Finidi on us, marking territory left and right with no fear of repercussions.

You only become a unit when you know who you are. Who can fill the roles in that unit. Who will sacrifice and give up pride for the unit. It's frustrating. We can do it but we just seem to want to throw out any ol' XI and put minimal work into the team and hope/pray for the best. Mind you, it's tough to be a unit when the coach has to worry about rubbish like the condition of the turf, whether we have match balls, whether food is there, whether hotel bills are paid, all this while he has not been paid for months.

So the question becomes, how to we thrive in chaos. Honestly, maybe the idea that we need a military commandant in the Eagles isn't that crazy. :rotf: :rotf:
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Re: Germany 3 - 1 Cameroun (FT) Confed Cup

Post by airwolex »

The truth is poor as Cameroon were there are a lot of positives.

They didn't score but they created many chances. In spells in all three games they showed cohesion. They have stability under Broos.

We have our work cut out - we are nowhere as good as Germany and Chile, so it's going to be a slugfest.
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Re: Germany 3 - 1 Cameroun (FT) Confed Cup

Post by Chimurenga Rebel »

akamoke wrote:Fellows, its time we are honest..we have skills just like everyone else but to win a world cup or confed cup as starters, we need to rid ourselves of everything that is hurting discipline in our societies...our football is a microcosm of everything in our societies

I hoped for the best with Cameroon but it wasnt meant to be, and before we beat chests...this is the African champion and therefore they are the best we presented and no other team would have done better

Well said Akamoke :clap: :clap: :clap:
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Re: Germany 3 - 1 Cameroun (FT) Confed Cup

Post by TheHitman47 »

airwolex wrote:The truth is poor as Cameroon were there are a lot of positives.

They didn't score but they created many chances. In spells in all three games they showed cohesion. They have stability under Broos.

We have our work cut out - we are nowhere as good as Germany and Chile, so it's going to be a slugfest.
And there is a lot lacking in their game that even a team like ours can exploit. If you noticed their game vs Australia, as bad as Australia were in that game, there were still openings to score and chances to steal a win. I'm not saying that Australia was the better team, but they showed openings that lower skilled teams can take advantage of against this Cameroon side. We just need to be smart and exploit them.
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Re: Germany 3 - 1 Cameroun (FT) Confed Cup

Post by TheHitman47 »

txj wrote:Nothing more to add really...

Until we improve the refereeing standards at AFCON, we will continue to occasionally get champions like this...
African refs are the reasons why teams like Cameroon win competitions like this. With decent refs they would be suffering with red cards as much as they do in intercontinental tournaments.
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Re: Germany 3 - 1 Cameroun (FT) Confed Cup

Post by folem »

TheHitman47 wrote:
txj wrote:Nothing more to add really...

Until we improve the refereeing standards at AFCON, we will continue to occasionally get champions like this...
African refs are the reasons why teams like Cameroon win competitions like this. With decent refs they would be suffering with red cards as much as they do in intercontinental tournaments.
A lot of fouls go unpunished in CAF sanctioned matches that will probably get it's due sanction @ FIFA level. Its only a matter of time before one African team wins something bigger than Olympics, U20 or U17. Cameroon were one time finalists for this Confed tournament.
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Re: Germany 3 - 1 Cameroun (FT) Confed Cup

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Buhari, whose two terms thankfully ground to a constitutional halt in May. (One thing both democracies have going for them is that their leaders, however bad, have only two terms to swing the wrecking ball.) Under Buhari, growth per head also plunged to 0. An economic agenda drawn from the dusty pages of a 1970s protectionist handbook failed to do the trick. Despite Buhari’s promise to tame terrorism and criminality, violence flourished. Despite his reputation for probity, corruption swirled. FT
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Re: Germany 3 - 1 Cameroun (FT) Confed Cup

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First, I do not believe that refereeing is the reason why a team like Cameroon won the AFCON. Far from it. Sure, there are refereeing problems in Africa but we are seeing the VAR expose refereeing problems at the global level and we saw some of it at the Euro. Nevertheless, let's not forget that Portugal, the current European champion, was not the best team at the Euros and yet they are champion of Europe. The point here is that the champion may not play the best football. IMHO, I actually think that Cameroon was one of the better teams at the last AFCON. I had written them off when the competition began because of the players who withdrew and even with those players they had been poor against Zambia at the WCQ. Yet, when I watched their opening AFCON game, I was surprised. I immediately stated on CE that Cameroon had a team to watch and they proved me right at the end. This is not a poor team by any African standard. This Confed Cup has not changed that, IMHO. They have come against two of the very best teams in the world and SE would not have done better except in a 1:50 chance. This is a team that lost to South Africa and was not that dominating against a declining Algerian team and a poor Tanzanian team. Suddenly we expect them to hammer a supposedly German "C" team (Really, "C" team?)

I believe that Cameroon will be a handful for SE. Make no mistake about that even though we often underrate other African teams and overhype the SE. However, I feel that we can take the three points in the game in Nigeria and that should be enough. However, I repeat that Cameroon's defense which was compact (v Germany) will frustrate Nigeria. Sure, the Germans got behind that defense as did Chile (Infact, Chile was far more successful I thought) because the offside trap was at times uncoordinated and some defenders failed to track runners, but Nigeria does not play the space as the Germans and Chileans did. That is a big difference. You will find that in the Nigerian/Cameroon game, SE faced against the same defense, will choose one of the following two options: (1) try to use the high ball over the top, or (2) try to use crosses from the wide areas when none of our forwards will likely win the aerial contests against Tekieu and Ngadeu. That is the problem.
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Re: Germany 3 - 1 Cameroun (FT) Confed Cup

Post by gochino »

platinum wrote:
Enugu II wrote:In my own opinion, it appears that people in CE think that this Cameroon team is so poor and that we would walk all over them. That is a wrong conclusion, to be sure.

While I liked Oyongo, he would not have made much difference on this team. He was my favorite Cameroonian defender at the AFCON but in one-and-one situations. Cameroon is good and they will prove it against Nigeria in August/September. While I believe that SE will win, it will not be easy. Take that to the bank.

This German team is stronger than many of Europe's best. I wonder whether the narrative will change for most of you when this German team meets and beats European champion -- Portugal -- in the final? Already, they showed what they could do with the game v Chile. The German team is not made of amateurs, you should note. This is a very good team devoid of some of their regular stars but certainly nothing to sniff at. It is not a C team by any stretch of imagination.

Back to Cameroon, Cameroon has an attack that let it down in this game. Aboubakar is really not much to write about. First, even when there were open shots created by shifting the ball outside the box, the shots were not taken or attempted very late. At the other end, the Germans were willing to attempt shots from outside the box at the slightest daylight. Though Bassagog created problems for the German defense with his pace and tricky moves, he was like Moses Simon as in poor end product. Defensively, Tekieu lost his man a few times but it was also because Ngadeu and Mabouka did not manage the offside trap well allowing men behind the defense in safe spots. In fact, I felt defensively that the team did better than they did against Chile who repeatedly came through those lines particularly in the opening half of that earlier game. The reality is that the SE will not be able to get behind that defense as often because our strikers rarely exploit space behind the defense in the way the Germans or Chileans did. That should be noted. Thus, the fact that the Cameroonian defense played compact will prove to be huge challenge for the SE limiting the SE to wingers crossing the ball and not to passes behind the defense as the Chileans or Germans did.

IMHO, I take two major things from watching the Cameroonians at this Confed Cup: (1) They will be very tough competition for Nigeria, and (2) The German team is strong. Ignore the names and focus on how they play.

Sorry, there was nothing compact about that defense. When Germany revved the engines in the second half, they lit Cameroon to shreds with consummate ease. And they really didn't do anything special, they focused more on forward play instead of the counter game, moved the ball faster, sent runners off the ball, exploited all the spaces behind Cameroon's defense. Of course you're right when you say Germany are special but the fact is they didn't do anything many decent teams cannot do. The big problem here is I've not seen the Eagles do any of these basics in recent games so it';s not exactly something to feel confident about.
Lol compact?.'..Germany needed a draw to advance and where playing more defensive in the first half, many times you could see that they had about 8 to 9 players in their half. They only changed tactics in the second half and we all know what happened after that! This Cameroonian team is poor but still we wont walk over them, which does not say much about our team !...If we can't beat Cameroon,then we should forget about the world cup. Africa needs a team that won't just be there to fulfill the FiFA quota system! Enough is enough!
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Re: Germany 3 - 1 Cameroun (FT) Confed Cup

Post by TheHitman47 »

Enugu II wrote:First, I do not believe that refereeing is the reason why a team like Cameroon won the AFCON. Far from it. Sure, there are refereeing problems in Africa but we are seeing the VAR expose refereeing problems at the global level and we saw some of it at the Euro. Nevertheless, let's not forget that Portugal, the current European champion, was not the best team at the Euros and yet they are champion of Europe. The point here is that the champion may not play the best football. IMHO, I actually think that Cameroon was one of the better teams at the last AFCON. I had written them off when the competition began because of the players who withdrew and even with those players they had been poor against Zambia at the WCQ. Yet, when I watched their opening AFCON game, I was surprised. I immediately stated on CE that Cameroon had a team to watch and they proved me right at the end. This is not a poor team by any African standard. This Confed Cup has not changed that, IMHO. They have come against two of the very best teams in the world and SE would not have done better except in a 1:50 chance. This is a team that lost to South Africa and was not that dominating against a declining Algerian team and a poor Tanzanian team. Suddenly we expect them to hammer a supposedly German "C" team (Really, "C" team?)

I believe that Cameroon will be a handful for SE. Make no mistake about that even though we often underrate other African teams and overhype the SE. However, I feel that we can take the three points in the game in Nigeria and that should be enough. However, I repeat that Cameroon's defense which was compact (v Germany) will frustrate Nigeria. Sure, the Germans got behind that defense as did Chile (Infact, Chile was far more successful I thought) because the offside trap was at times uncoordinated and some defenders failed to track runners, but Nigeria does not play the space as the Germans and Chileans did. That is a big difference. You will find that in the Nigerian/Cameroon game, SE faced against the same defense, will choose one of the following two options: (1) try to use the high ball over the top, or (2) try to use crosses from the wide areas when none of our forwards will likely win the aerial contests against Tekieu and Ngadeu. That is the problem.

What I find funny about this is how you are selling our team short. After that game against South Africa, there will be a lot of Change and we aren't going to try the same nonsense we tried against South Africa. Trying the same strategy is the meaning of madness. With Mikel and VM that will change the nature of our attack, along with an out and out number 9 like Ideye. Also with Balogun and Ikeme back in the team that will improve our defense significantly with a better, more assured shot stopper and give us better defense against crosses and set pieces.
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Re: Germany 3 - 1 Cameroun (FT) Confed Cup

Post by Enugu II »

TheHitman47 wrote:
Enugu II wrote:First, I do not believe that refereeing is the reason why a team like Cameroon won the AFCON. Far from it. Sure, there are refereeing problems in Africa but we are seeing the VAR expose refereeing problems at the global level and we saw some of it at the Euro. Nevertheless, let's not forget that Portugal, the current European champion, was not the best team at the Euros and yet they are champion of Europe. The point here is that the champion may not play the best football. IMHO, I actually think that Cameroon was one of the better teams at the last AFCON. I had written them off when the competition began because of the players who withdrew and even with those players they had been poor against Zambia at the WCQ. Yet, when I watched their opening AFCON game, I was surprised. I immediately stated on CE that Cameroon had a team to watch and they proved me right at the end. This is not a poor team by any African standard. This Confed Cup has not changed that, IMHO. They have come against two of the very best teams in the world and SE would not have done better except in a 1:50 chance. This is a team that lost to South Africa and was not that dominating against a declining Algerian team and a poor Tanzanian team. Suddenly we expect them to hammer a supposedly German "C" team (Really, "C" team?)

I believe that Cameroon will be a handful for SE. Make no mistake about that even though we often underrate other African teams and overhype the SE. However, I feel that we can take the three points in the game in Nigeria and that should be enough. However, I repeat that Cameroon's defense which was compact (v Germany) will frustrate Nigeria. Sure, the Germans got behind that defense as did Chile (Infact, Chile was far more successful I thought) because the offside trap was at times uncoordinated and some defenders failed to track runners, but Nigeria does not play the space as the Germans and Chileans did. That is a big difference. You will find that in the Nigerian/Cameroon game, SE faced against the same defense, will choose one of the following two options: (1) try to use the high ball over the top, or (2) try to use crosses from the wide areas when none of our forwards will likely win the aerial contests against Tekieu and Ngadeu. That is the problem.

What I find funny about this is how you are selling our team short. After that game against South Africa, there will be a lot of Change and we aren't going to try the same nonsense we tried against South Africa. Trying the same strategy is the meaning of madness. With Mikel and VM that will change the nature of our attack, along with an out and out number 9 like Ideye. Also with Balogun and Ikeme back in the team that will improve our defense significantly with a better, more assured shot stopper and give us better defense against crosses and set pieces.
Actually, I am not. What I am pointing to is our tendency to overhype our team against others and at the same time we underrate others. Obviously, we have not learned our sessions. Nigeria isn't that much better than Cameroon. Take that to the bank. We would not have done that much better against Chile and Germany. We probably would have beaten Australia as the Cameroonians should have. This Cameroon team that we are viscerating as a poor team will surprise us come August with how difficult they are to play against and we will begin to attack this individual player or another and blame Rohr for his selections. In all that, no credit will be given to the opposition. It is a re-occuring theme. I expect us to beat Cameroon but we will not walk all over them. Did we walk over Tanzania? Did we walk over Algeria? Did we walk over South Africa? That ought to tell you something. Those teams are not better than Cameroon, my brother. Already, some have mentioned that we would have beaten this German "C team." That is just not true.
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Re: Germany 3 - 1 Cameroun (FT) Confed Cup

Post by platinum »

Enugu II wrote:First, I do not believe that refereeing is the reason why a team like Cameroon won the AFCON. Far from it. Sure, there are refereeing problems in Africa but we are seeing the VAR expose refereeing problems at the global level and we saw some of it at the Euro. Nevertheless, let's not forget that Portugal, the current European champion, was not the best team at the Euros and yet they are champion of Europe. The point here is that the champion may not play the best football. IMHO, I actually think that Cameroon was one of the better teams at the last AFCON. I had written them off when the competition began because of the players who withdrew and even with those players they had been poor against Zambia at the WCQ. Yet, when I watched their opening AFCON game, I was surprised. I immediately stated on CE that Cameroon had a team to watch and they proved me right at the end. This is not a poor team by any African standard. This Confed Cup has not changed that, IMHO. They have come against two of the very best teams in the world and SE would not have done better except in a 1:50 chance. This is a team that lost to South Africa and was not that dominating against a declining Algerian team and a poor Tanzanian team. Suddenly we expect them to hammer a supposedly German "C" team (Really, "C" team?)

I believe that Cameroon will be a handful for SE. Make no mistake about that even though we often underrate other African teams and overhype the SE. However, I feel that we can take the three points in the game in Nigeria and that should be enough. However, I repeat that Cameroon's defense which was compact (v Germany) will frustrate Nigeria. Sure, the Germans got behind that defense as did Chile (Infact, Chile was far more successful I thought) because the offside trap was at times uncoordinated and some defenders failed to track runners, but Nigeria does not play the space as the Germans and Chileans did. That is a big difference. You will find that in the Nigerian/Cameroon game, SE faced against the same defense, will choose one of the following two options: (1) try to use the high ball over the top, or (2) try to use crosses from the wide areas when none of our forwards will likely win the aerial contests against Tekieu and Ngadeu. That is the problem.

Repeating it doesn't make it right EII. The Cameroonian defense was not compact by any decent measure against the world champs. When Germany wanted to have a go, they did. They could have had 6 goals versus our brothers to the East. Chile also exposed them. Even Aussie took turns when they were not too cowed. We should not measure the Cameroon defense by Nigerian standards. A defense is either good or it isn't and Cameroon's defense was no great shakes. That said, does Nigeria have the needed tools to get behind them consistently? Just like you, I doubt that. HOWEVER, if we sneak a goal and draw them out, we can turn the tide in our favor.

The options you raised would be disappointing to see. They have us beat in the size department and I would write off this coach totally if I saw those scenarios play out. It'd betray a total lack of ideas from him. The way to break them down is movement. We don't have to be as sophisticated as the Germans. A set of quick one twos should get us behind them a few times. We need to sneak a goal and then the space will become even more plain to our eyes.
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Re: Germany 3 - 1 Cameroun (FT) Confed Cup

Post by Enugu II »

platinum wrote:
Enugu II wrote:First, I do not believe that refereeing is the reason why a team like Cameroon won the AFCON. Far from it. Sure, there are refereeing problems in Africa but we are seeing the VAR expose refereeing problems at the global level and we saw some of it at the Euro. Nevertheless, let's not forget that Portugal, the current European champion, was not the best team at the Euros and yet they are champion of Europe. The point here is that the champion may not play the best football. IMHO, I actually think that Cameroon was one of the better teams at the last AFCON. I had written them off when the competition began because of the players who withdrew and even with those players they had been poor against Zambia at the WCQ. Yet, when I watched their opening AFCON game, I was surprised. I immediately stated on CE that Cameroon had a team to watch and they proved me right at the end. This is not a poor team by any African standard. This Confed Cup has not changed that, IMHO. They have come against two of the very best teams in the world and SE would not have done better except in a 1:50 chance. This is a team that lost to South Africa and was not that dominating against a declining Algerian team and a poor Tanzanian team. Suddenly we expect them to hammer a supposedly German "C" team (Really, "C" team?)

I believe that Cameroon will be a handful for SE. Make no mistake about that even though we often underrate other African teams and overhype the SE. However, I feel that we can take the three points in the game in Nigeria and that should be enough. However, I repeat that Cameroon's defense which was compact (v Germany) will frustrate Nigeria. Sure, the Germans got behind that defense as did Chile (Infact, Chile was far more successful I thought) because the offside trap was at times uncoordinated and some defenders failed to track runners, but Nigeria does not play the space as the Germans and Chileans did. That is a big difference. You will find that in the Nigerian/Cameroon game, SE faced against the same defense, will choose one of the following two options: (1) try to use the high ball over the top, or (2) try to use crosses from the wide areas when none of our forwards will likely win the aerial contests against Tekieu and Ngadeu. That is the problem.

Repeating it doesn't make it right EII. The Cameroonian defense was not compact by any decent measure against the world champs. When Germany wanted to have a go, they did. They could have had 6 goals versus our brothers to the East. Chile also exposed them. Even Aussie took turns when they were not too cowed. We should not measure the Cameroon defense by Nigerian standards. A defense is either good or it isn't and Cameroon's defense was no great shakes. That said, does Nigeria have the needed tools to get behind them consistently? Just like you, I doubt that. HOWEVER, if we sneak a goal and draw them out, we can turn the tide in our favor.

The options you raised would be disappointing to see. They have us beat in the size department and I would write off this coach totally if I saw those scenarios play out. It'd betray a total lack of ideas from him. The way to break them down is movement. We don't have to be as sophisticated as the Germans. A set of quick one twos should get us behind them a few times. We need to sneak a goal and then the space will become even more plain to our eyes.
Platinum,

Perhaps, at this point it is necessary to ask what you understand as compact? Being compact in defense does not mean you cannot get around the defense. The Cameroon defense played close together right in front of the goal leaving spaces out wide. That is compact. However, the Germans still got around it by using not just the wide spaces but getting behind the defense because the trap was poorly set. Do not assume that compact means a defense that cannot be breached. That is not what it means. It simply refers to the structure of the defense.

It does not define whether a defense is good or bad, either. There are various formations that may or may not produce a compact defense. We saw the USA use a 5-man defense in ball recovery against Mexico a week or so ago. It was effective not just because it was compact but it did the things that I point to above that Cameroon did not do with a 4-man defense. Yet both defenses are essentially compact because of their basic structure of being dense together.
The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
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Re: Germany 3 - 1 Cameroun (FT) Confed Cup

Post by platinum »

Enugu II wrote:
platinum wrote:
Enugu II wrote:First, I do not believe that refereeing is the reason why a team like Cameroon won the AFCON. Far from it. Sure, there are refereeing problems in Africa but we are seeing the VAR expose refereeing problems at the global level and we saw some of it at the Euro. Nevertheless, let's not forget that Portugal, the current European champion, was not the best team at the Euros and yet they are champion of Europe. The point here is that the champion may not play the best football. IMHO, I actually think that Cameroon was one of the better teams at the last AFCON. I had written them off when the competition began because of the players who withdrew and even with those players they had been poor against Zambia at the WCQ. Yet, when I watched their opening AFCON game, I was surprised. I immediately stated on CE that Cameroon had a team to watch and they proved me right at the end. This is not a poor team by any African standard. This Confed Cup has not changed that, IMHO. They have come against two of the very best teams in the world and SE would not have done better except in a 1:50 chance. This is a team that lost to South Africa and was not that dominating against a declining Algerian team and a poor Tanzanian team. Suddenly we expect them to hammer a supposedly German "C" team (Really, "C" team?)

I believe that Cameroon will be a handful for SE. Make no mistake about that even though we often underrate other African teams and overhype the SE. However, I feel that we can take the three points in the game in Nigeria and that should be enough. However, I repeat that Cameroon's defense which was compact (v Germany) will frustrate Nigeria. Sure, the Germans got behind that defense as did Chile (Infact, Chile was far more successful I thought) because the offside trap was at times uncoordinated and some defenders failed to track runners, but Nigeria does not play the space as the Germans and Chileans did. That is a big difference. You will find that in the Nigerian/Cameroon game, SE faced against the same defense, will choose one of the following two options: (1) try to use the high ball over the top, or (2) try to use crosses from the wide areas when none of our forwards will likely win the aerial contests against Tekieu and Ngadeu. That is the problem.

Repeating it doesn't make it right EII. The Cameroonian defense was not compact by any decent measure against the world champs. When Germany wanted to have a go, they did. They could have had 6 goals versus our brothers to the East. Chile also exposed them. Even Aussie took turns when they were not too cowed. We should not measure the Cameroon defense by Nigerian standards. A defense is either good or it isn't and Cameroon's defense was no great shakes. That said, does Nigeria have the needed tools to get behind them consistently? Just like you, I doubt that. HOWEVER, if we sneak a goal and draw them out, we can turn the tide in our favor.

The options you raised would be disappointing to see. They have us beat in the size department and I would write off this coach totally if I saw those scenarios play out. It'd betray a total lack of ideas from him. The way to break them down is movement. We don't have to be as sophisticated as the Germans. A set of quick one twos should get us behind them a few times. We need to sneak a goal and then the space will become even more plain to our eyes.
Platinum,

Perhaps, at this point it is necessary to ask what you understand as compact? Being compact in defense does not mean you cannot get around the defense. The Cameroon defense played close together right in front of the goal leaving spaces out wide. That is compact. However, the Germans still got around it by using not just the wide spaces but getting behind the defense because the trap was poorly set. Do not assume that compact means a defense that cannot be breached. That is not what it means. It simply refers to the structure of the defense.

It does not define whether a defense is good or bad, either. There are various formations that may or may not produce a compact defense. We saw the USA use a 5-man defense in ball recovery against Mexico a week or so ago. It was effective not just because it was compact but it did the things that I point to above that Cameroon did not do with a 4-man defense. Yet both defenses are essentially compact because of their basic structure of being dense together.

Playing close together isn't all that defines compactness. I'd argue that the more crucial aspect of compactness is moving together as a UNIT.
Being close together doesn't mean anything if you break shape the moment a runner breaks behind you, that is what Cameroon kept doing v Germany. That isn't compact Mazi. Not close. You have one element correct, they stuck close together behind the ball. They missed the second vital aspect though, they kept breaking shape which allowed Germany toy with them.
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Re: Germany 3 - 1 Cameroun (FT) Confed Cup

Post by Enugu II »

platinum wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
platinum wrote:
Enugu II wrote:First, I do not believe that refereeing is the reason why a team like Cameroon won the AFCON. Far from it. Sure, there are refereeing problems in Africa but we are seeing the VAR expose refereeing problems at the global level and we saw some of it at the Euro. Nevertheless, let's not forget that Portugal, the current European champion, was not the best team at the Euros and yet they are champion of Europe. The point here is that the champion may not play the best football. IMHO, I actually think that Cameroon was one of the better teams at the last AFCON. I had written them off when the competition began because of the players who withdrew and even with those players they had been poor against Zambia at the WCQ. Yet, when I watched their opening AFCON game, I was surprised. I immediately stated on CE that Cameroon had a team to watch and they proved me right at the end. This is not a poor team by any African standard. This Confed Cup has not changed that, IMHO. They have come against two of the very best teams in the world and SE would not have done better except in a 1:50 chance. This is a team that lost to South Africa and was not that dominating against a declining Algerian team and a poor Tanzanian team. Suddenly we expect them to hammer a supposedly German "C" team (Really, "C" team?)

I believe that Cameroon will be a handful for SE. Make no mistake about that even though we often underrate other African teams and overhype the SE. However, I feel that we can take the three points in the game in Nigeria and that should be enough. However, I repeat that Cameroon's defense which was compact (v Germany) will frustrate Nigeria. Sure, the Germans got behind that defense as did Chile (Infact, Chile was far more successful I thought) because the offside trap was at times uncoordinated and some defenders failed to track runners, but Nigeria does not play the space as the Germans and Chileans did. That is a big difference. You will find that in the Nigerian/Cameroon game, SE faced against the same defense, will choose one of the following two options: (1) try to use the high ball over the top, or (2) try to use crosses from the wide areas when none of our forwards will likely win the aerial contests against Tekieu and Ngadeu. That is the problem.

Repeating it doesn't make it right EII. The Cameroonian defense was not compact by any decent measure against the world champs. When Germany wanted to have a go, they did. They could have had 6 goals versus our brothers to the East. Chile also exposed them. Even Aussie took turns when they were not too cowed. We should not measure the Cameroon defense by Nigerian standards. A defense is either good or it isn't and Cameroon's defense was no great shakes. That said, does Nigeria have the needed tools to get behind them consistently? Just like you, I doubt that. HOWEVER, if we sneak a goal and draw them out, we can turn the tide in our favor.

The options you raised would be disappointing to see. They have us beat in the size department and I would write off this coach totally if I saw those scenarios play out. It'd betray a total lack of ideas from him. The way to break them down is movement. We don't have to be as sophisticated as the Germans. A set of quick one twos should get us behind them a few times. We need to sneak a goal and then the space will become even more plain to our eyes.
Platinum,

Perhaps, at this point it is necessary to ask what you understand as compact? Being compact in defense does not mean you cannot get around the defense. The Cameroon defense played close together right in front of the goal leaving spaces out wide. That is compact. However, the Germans still got around it by using not just the wide spaces but getting behind the defense because the trap was poorly set. Do not assume that compact means a defense that cannot be breached. That is not what it means. It simply refers to the structure of the defense.

It does not define whether a defense is good or bad, either. There are various formations that may or may not produce a compact defense. We saw the USA use a 5-man defense in ball recovery against Mexico a week or so ago. It was effective not just because it was compact but it did the things that I point to above that Cameroon did not do with a 4-man defense. Yet both defenses are essentially compact because of their basic structure of being dense together.

Playing close together isn't all that defines compactness. I'd argue that the more crucial aspect of compactness is moving together as a UNIT.
Being close together doesn't mean anything if you break shape the moment a runner breaks behind you, that is what Cameroon kept doing v Germany. That isn't compact Mazi. Not close. You have one element correct, they stuck close together behind the ball. They missed the second vital aspect though, they kept breaking shape which allowed Germany toy with them.
Platinum,

There is no denying that Cameroon exhibited the problems you mentioned above. I identified them as well. However, it is a misnomer to assume that being compact is the same as keeping shape or shifting in a zone block. While compact zone defenses often have to exhibit those two ideas, the concept of compact refers specifically to being dense together as a defense and Cameroon did that in spite of the issues that you, I, and others identify.
The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
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Re: Germany 3 - 1 Cameroun (FT) Confed Cup

Post by platinum »

Enugu II wrote:
platinum wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
platinum wrote:
Enugu II wrote:First, I do not believe that refereeing is the reason why a team like Cameroon won the AFCON. Far from it. Sure, there are refereeing problems in Africa but we are seeing the VAR expose refereeing problems at the global level and we saw some of it at the Euro. Nevertheless, let's not forget that Portugal, the current European champion, was not the best team at the Euros and yet they are champion of Europe. The point here is that the champion may not play the best football. IMHO, I actually think that Cameroon was one of the better teams at the last AFCON. I had written them off when the competition began because of the players who withdrew and even with those players they had been poor against Zambia at the WCQ. Yet, when I watched their opening AFCON game, I was surprised. I immediately stated on CE that Cameroon had a team to watch and they proved me right at the end. This is not a poor team by any African standard. This Confed Cup has not changed that, IMHO. They have come against two of the very best teams in the world and SE would not have done better except in a 1:50 chance. This is a team that lost to South Africa and was not that dominating against a declining Algerian team and a poor Tanzanian team. Suddenly we expect them to hammer a supposedly German "C" team (Really, "C" team?)

I believe that Cameroon will be a handful for SE. Make no mistake about that even though we often underrate other African teams and overhype the SE. However, I feel that we can take the three points in the game in Nigeria and that should be enough. However, I repeat that Cameroon's defense which was compact (v Germany) will frustrate Nigeria. Sure, the Germans got behind that defense as did Chile (Infact, Chile was far more successful I thought) because the offside trap was at times uncoordinated and some defenders failed to track runners, but Nigeria does not play the space as the Germans and Chileans did. That is a big difference. You will find that in the Nigerian/Cameroon game, SE faced against the same defense, will choose one of the following two options: (1) try to use the high ball over the top, or (2) try to use crosses from the wide areas when none of our forwards will likely win the aerial contests against Tekieu and Ngadeu. That is the problem.

Repeating it doesn't make it right EII. The Cameroonian defense was not compact by any decent measure against the world champs. When Germany wanted to have a go, they did. They could have had 6 goals versus our brothers to the East. Chile also exposed them. Even Aussie took turns when they were not too cowed. We should not measure the Cameroon defense by Nigerian standards. A defense is either good or it isn't and Cameroon's defense was no great shakes. That said, does Nigeria have the needed tools to get behind them consistently? Just like you, I doubt that. HOWEVER, if we sneak a goal and draw them out, we can turn the tide in our favor.

The options you raised would be disappointing to see. They have us beat in the size department and I would write off this coach totally if I saw those scenarios play out. It'd betray a total lack of ideas from him. The way to break them down is movement. We don't have to be as sophisticated as the Germans. A set of quick one twos should get us behind them a few times. We need to sneak a goal and then the space will become even more plain to our eyes.
Platinum,

Perhaps, at this point it is necessary to ask what you understand as compact? Being compact in defense does not mean you cannot get around the defense. The Cameroon defense played close together right in front of the goal leaving spaces out wide. That is compact. However, the Germans still got around it by using not just the wide spaces but getting behind the defense because the trap was poorly set. Do not assume that compact means a defense that cannot be breached. That is not what it means. It simply refers to the structure of the defense.

It does not define whether a defense is good or bad, either. There are various formations that may or may not produce a compact defense. We saw the USA use a 5-man defense in ball recovery against Mexico a week or so ago. It was effective not just because it was compact but it did the things that I point to above that Cameroon did not do with a 4-man defense. Yet both defenses are essentially compact because of their basic structure of being dense together.

Playing close together isn't all that defines compactness. I'd argue that the more crucial aspect of compactness is moving together as a UNIT.
Being close together doesn't mean anything if you break shape the moment a runner breaks behind you, that is what Cameroon kept doing v Germany. That isn't compact Mazi. Not close. You have one element correct, they stuck close together behind the ball. They missed the second vital aspect though, they kept breaking shape which allowed Germany toy with them.
Platinum,

There is no denying that Cameroon exhibited the problems you mentioned above. I identified them as well. However, it is a misnomer to assume that being compact is the same as keeping shape or shifting in a zone block. While compact zone defenses often have to exhibit those two ideas, the concept of compact refers specifically to being dense together as a defense and Cameroon did that in spite of the issues that you, I, and others identify.
EII,

Isn't the whole point of compactness the ability to stay that way? Whether vertical or lateral compactness, if you keep getting pulled apart, then by definition you are no longer compact because you're destroying the whole concept of zonal blocking whether by lack of discipline or lack of proper instruction. You're compact if you stay close to begin with, sure.... but that's easy to do when the opponent isn't having a go. If you break apart every time they actually test the defense, that is no compact defense.

At any rate, Nigeria hasn't shown anything that suggests we can break a half decent defense, that much we agree on.
Evans Bipi, had declared to the press, “Why must [Governor Amaechi] be insulting my mother, my Jesus Christ on earth?”
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Re: Germany 3 - 1 Cameroun (FT) Confed Cup

Post by bepanda »

When is the game against Nigeria and where? We need to start getting our Voodoo in place to prepare for this game.
I don't see how Cameroon loses this game.

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