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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:12 pm 
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IMHO, that referee for the Confed Cup final should be sanctioned for the decision on Jara. One of most ridiculous decisions I have ever seen.

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VAR creates as much confusion as clarity in Confederations Cup final
http://www.espnfc.com/blog/the-match/60/post/3151551/var-creates-as-much-confusion-as-clarity-in-confederations-cup-final?utm_content=bufferc9c33&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_campaign=buffer



SAINT PETERSBURG, Russia -- In the 61st minute of the Confederations Cup final, Serbian referee Milorad Mazic was given the opportunity to transform elite-level football and drag it into the 21st century alongside every other major sport, but in front of a global TV audience of millions watching Germany defeat Chile 1-0, he blew it.

With one simple decision, Mazic inflicted huge damage to the credibility of FIFA's video assistant referee (VAR) system and left those watching in a state of bewilderment after he chose not to dismiss Chile's Gonzalo Jara for an elbow to Germany forward Timo Werner.

Mazic had missed the initial incident. Indeed, many inside Saint Petersburg Stadium didn't see Jara's foul on Werner, who appeared to go down easily and theatrically after a collision on the far touchline.

The VAR called Mazic to the touchline to review the incident, and replays -- which were available in the media seats but not to the paying spectators -- clearly showed that Jara thrust his left elbow into Werner's face.

As Mazic studied the incident -- three minutes passed before his decision became clear -- Jara looked anxiously at Chile goalkeeper Claudio Bravo, bearing the look of a man who knew he was facing a red card. Yet having watched it closely, from three camera angles that did little to support any suggestion that Jara's contact was accidental, Mazic returned to the pitch and issued a yellow card.

And in that moment, he ensured that every use of VAR from this point on risks being compromised, because everyone will remember the night when a referee allowed a player to stay on the pitch after it was evident that he elbowed an opponent.

"I didn't see it on the field of play; it was quite a mix-up and the VAR was consulted," said Germany coach Joachim Low after his team's victory. "But I saw it before I came into the press conference, and it could have been worthy of a red because it was an elbow in the face.

"If the referee has seen the incident, he could, and should, have red-carded him."

But Mazic didn't and, in the process, triggered confusion and also anger among fellow officials. Mark Halsey, a former Premier League referee, gave his blunt assessment of the incident on Twitter.

"What on earth is going on with VAR?" Halsey tweeted. "It's a shambles, their [sic] is a protocol in place, but officials not adhering to it."

VAR is not supposed to be used to clear up yellow-card incidents; it is there to clarify offside, penalty incidents, goals and red-card offences. So in theory, Mazic could either take no action or send Jara off. The yellow card was inexplicable on numerous levels, primarily because it was a clear red card and precisely the kind of unseen, off-the-ball foul that the VAR system is supposed to deal with.

Only Mazic will know why he issued a yellow card. Good luck if you expect to hear his explanation anytime soon.

Football officials will always wrestle with the idea of a third eye to assist their decision-making.

Unlike in other sports, such as tennis or cricket, many decisions are subjective. In tennis, the ball was on the line or it wasn't; in cricket, the batsman either hit the ball with the bat or he didn't, and technology enables the officials to know for certain either way.

Now an elbow is an elbow, or so most would assume, but there is the matter of intent, and that is ultimately a subjective decision of the referee. This is also the case when a foul is committed in the penalty area, or when it appears to have been a foul, only for replays to show that contact may or may not have forced the attacker to go down.

One referee will judge an incident one way, and another will see it differently, but some moments really should be clear-cut, even when opinion is involved, and Jara's elbow on Werner was one of those.


The frustrations of Alexis Sanchez and Chile with the VAR system were clear for all to see in the Confederations Cup final.
For Mazic to watch replays of it and then decide it was not a foul that justified a red card is simply bizarre. Any referee could miss it during live play, without the opportunity to see it again, but officials now have the chance to review and take time to make the correct decision.

The Confederations Cup has not been a good advert for VAR, though. There have been countless instances of VAR being used too slowly, too late or incorrectly, and it clearly needs work to become a successful and reliable feature of the game.

And having the VAR booth so close to the two technical areas, wedged between the rival coaching teams, is a recipe for chaos, as was highlighted during the second half of this game. Players use the hand gesture for VAR when urging referees to reconsider their decision -- maybe it will replace the imaginary yellow card -- and coaches run toward the officials in the booth.

This happened after Chile's Alexis Sanchez ran into Sebastian Rudy on 76 minutes. Mazic correctly ignored Chile's penalty appeals, but the Chilean bench went crazy, for want of a better word.

Chile manager Juan Antonio Pizzi and several members of his staff sprinted toward the VAR, chaos ensued, and Mazic had to come across and briefly assess what had happened on the touchline before continuing with the game.

For VAR to work successfully, it must be located remotely, away from the inside of the stadium, with communication done via technology, to prevent managers from berating the officials who sit with the television screens.

VAR is a flawed system, but it can get better and become integral to the game once the problems are resolved.

But the biggest problem -- subjectivity -- will never go away. Mazic proved that in Saint Petersburg by failing to send off Jara, and until FIFA finds a way to employ robots as referees, VAR will always create as much confusion as clarity.


Mark Ogden is a senior football writer for ESPN FC. Follow him @MarkOgden_

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:26 pm 
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Red card all day everyday. That Ref is a weirdo.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:40 pm 
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Enugu II wrote:
IMHO, that referee for the Confed Cup final should be sanctioned for the decision on Jara. One of most ridiculous decisions I have ever seen.

Although, PERSONALLY, I would have given Jara a red, I am not sure that I agree...

The reality is that quite often the difference between a red card and yellow card (and even between yellow and a stern talking-to) boils down to HUMAN judgment and discretion. The video replay establishes the factual event, but the interpretation of such events will still ALWAYS come down to human judgment and opinion.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 1:53 pm 
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Gotti wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
IMHO, that referee for the Confed Cup final should be sanctioned for the decision on Jara. One of most ridiculous decisions I have ever seen.

Although, PERSONALLY, I would have given Jara a red, I am not sure that I agree...

The reality is that quite often the difference between a red card and yellow card (and even between yellow and a stern talking-to) boils down to HUMAN judgment and discretion. The video replay establishes the factual event, but the interpretation of such events will still ALWAYS come down to human judgment and opinion.



Nothing more to add...

Except to say I'm surprised at the nature of the criticisms of a system being used for the first time, like it should work flawlessly from Day 1...

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:00 pm 
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Gotti wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
IMHO, that referee for the Confed Cup final should be sanctioned for the decision on Jara. One of most ridiculous decisions I have ever seen.

Although, PERSONALLY, I would have given Jara a red, I am not sure that I agree...

The reality is that quite often the difference between a red card and yellow card (and even between yellow and a stern talking-to) boils down to HUMAN judgment and discretion. The video replay establishes the factual event, but the interpretation of such events will still ALWAYS come down to human judgment and opinion.

I thought the presence of VAR is exactly that to be technical and devoid of human subjectivity and render precise judgment. In this case VAR did its job but was subsequently overruled by human emotion! I am with E2 on this...

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 2:10 pm 
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Abbey wrote:
Gotti wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
IMHO, that referee for the Confed Cup final should be sanctioned for the decision on Jara. One of most ridiculous decisions I have ever seen.

Although, PERSONALLY, I would have given Jara a red, I am not sure that I agree...

The reality is that quite often the difference between a red card and yellow card (and even between yellow and a stern talking-to) boils down to HUMAN judgment and discretion. The video replay establishes the factual event, but the interpretation of such events will still ALWAYS come down to human judgment and opinion.

I thought the presence of VAR is exactly that to be technical and devoid of human subjectivity and render precise judgment. In this case VAR did its job but was subsequently overruled by human emotion! I am with E2 on this...



You thought wrong!

The use of VAR is to assist refs in rendering judgement; human judgement...Ultimately the final decision remains with the refs.

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We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:12 pm 
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airwolex wrote:
Red card all day everyday. That Ref is a weirdo.

It was certainly a RED CARD offense by the Chilean, but in a way it is good the referee allowed it to be, else the Chileans would have been having some excuses to give as to why they lost.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:17 pm 
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Odas wrote:
airwolex wrote:
Red card all day everyday. That Ref is a weirdo.

It was certainly a RED CARD offense by the Chilean, but in a way it is good the referee allowed it to be, else the Chileans would have been having some excuses to give as to why they lost.


I know but what's the use of VAR when a Professional gets things so wrong? Supposing Chile had equalized and won the game? It would have raised a stink. I like the VAR but if you cannot get a simple decision right after watching from all angles and huddling with other officials then we have an issue.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 4:18 pm 
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txj wrote:
Gotti wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
IMHO, that referee for the Confed Cup final should be sanctioned for the decision on Jara. One of most ridiculous decisions I have ever seen.

Although, PERSONALLY, I would have given Jara a red, I am not sure that I agree...

The reality is that quite often the difference between a red card and yellow card (and even between yellow and a stern talking-to) boils down to HUMAN judgment and discretion. The video replay establishes the factual event, but the interpretation of such events will still ALWAYS come down to human judgment and opinion.



Nothing more to add...

Except to say I'm surprised at the nature of the criticisms of a system being used for the first time, like it should work flawlessly from Day 1...


:clap:

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 03, 2017 5:17 pm 
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tfco wrote:
txj wrote:
Gotti wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
IMHO, that referee for the Confed Cup final should be sanctioned for the decision on Jara. One of most ridiculous decisions I have ever seen.

Although, PERSONALLY, I would have given Jara a red, I am not sure that I agree...

The reality is that quite often the difference between a red card and yellow card (and even between yellow and a stern talking-to) boils down to HUMAN judgment and discretion. The video replay establishes the factual event, but the interpretation of such events will still ALWAYS come down to human judgment and opinion.



Nothing more to add...

Except to say I'm surprised at the nature of the criticisms of a system being used for the first time, like it should work flawlessly from Day 1...


:clap:

IMO no one expect the "system" to be flawless. But what is the point of the VAR system if the human errors are still being made. To me, that the disappointing part. In the Jara case, VAR did its job perfectly (pointed out an incident unseen by the ref), but human error still prevailed.

I will give the ref benefit of doubt that he did not want to "ruin" a game in a "glorified friendly".. Hope this is not the case in WC or higher stake games.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:00 am 
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txj wrote:
Abbey wrote:
Gotti wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
IMHO, that referee for the Confed Cup final should be sanctioned for the decision on Jara. One of most ridiculous decisions I have ever seen.

Although, PERSONALLY, I would have given Jara a red, I am not sure that I agree...

The reality is that quite often the difference between a red card and yellow card (and even between yellow and a stern talking-to) boils down to HUMAN judgment and discretion. The video replay establishes the factual event, but the interpretation of such events will still ALWAYS come down to human judgment and opinion.

I thought the presence of VAR is exactly that to be technical and devoid of human subjectivity and render precise judgment. In this case VAR did its job but was subsequently overruled by human emotion! I am with E2 on this...



You thought wrong!

The use of VAR is to assist refs in rendering judgement; human judgement...Ultimately the final decision remains with the refs.


Txj,

I think the VAR is doing what it is expected to do i.e assist the officials. I do not criticize that. However, I do criticize a referee who was presented with facts and made a judgment that was wrong. A deliberate elbow to the face is certainly a red card offense and the referee's decision on that was exceedingly lenient.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 12:45 am 
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Enugu II wrote:
txj wrote:
Abbey wrote:
Gotti wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
IMHO, that referee for the Confed Cup final should be sanctioned for the decision on Jara. One of most ridiculous decisions I have ever seen.

Although, PERSONALLY, I would have given Jara a red, I am not sure that I agree...

The reality is that quite often the difference between a red card and yellow card (and even between yellow and a stern talking-to) boils down to HUMAN judgment and discretion. The video replay establishes the factual event, but the interpretation of such events will still ALWAYS come down to human judgment and opinion.

I thought the presence of VAR is exactly that to be technical and devoid of human subjectivity and render precise judgment. In this case VAR did its job but was subsequently overruled by human emotion! I am with E2 on this...



You thought wrong!

The use of VAR is to assist refs in rendering judgement; human judgement...Ultimately the final decision remains with the refs.


Txj,

I think the VAR is doing what it is expected to do i.e assist the officials. I do not criticize that. However, I do criticize a referee who was presented with facts and made a judgment that was wrong. A deliberate elbow to the face is certainly a red card offense and the referee's decision on that was exceedingly lenient.


He did not think it was deliberate, hence the YC...

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We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:09 am 
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txj wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
txj wrote:
Abbey wrote:
Gotti wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
IMHO, that referee for the Confed Cup final should be sanctioned for the decision on Jara. One of most ridiculous decisions I have ever seen.

Although, PERSONALLY, I would have given Jara a red, I am not sure that I agree...

The reality is that quite often the difference between a red card and yellow card (and even between yellow and a stern talking-to) boils down to HUMAN judgment and discretion. The video replay establishes the factual event, but the interpretation of such events will still ALWAYS come down to human judgment and opinion.

I thought the presence of VAR is exactly that to be technical and devoid of human subjectivity and render precise judgment. In this case VAR did its job but was subsequently overruled by human emotion! I am with E2 on this...

You thought wrong!

The use of VAR is to assist refs in rendering judgement; human judgement...Ultimately the final decision remains with the refs.

Txj,

I think the VAR is doing what it is expected to do i.e assist the officials. I do not criticize that. However, I do criticize a referee who was presented with facts and made a judgment that was wrong. A deliberate elbow to the face is certainly a red card offense and the referee's decision on that was exceedingly lenient.

He did not think it was deliberate, hence the YC...

Kpom!

He saw the elbow (thanks to the VAR) and then had to make the human judgment if it was deliberate.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 9:37 am 
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Jara's elbow, while anchored, did NOT move in isolation from the rest of the body.
He didn't swing the elbow to harm an opponent. Otherwise, it would have been a straight red.

He could have anchored the elbow, to protect himself, just like goalies dangerously raise their knee when grabbing a ball.
Hence, the yellow.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 10:47 am 
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Gotti wrote:
txj wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
txj wrote:
Abbey wrote:
Gotti wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
IMHO, that referee for the Confed Cup final should be sanctioned for the decision on Jara. One of most ridiculous decisions I have ever seen.

Although, PERSONALLY, I would have given Jara a red, I am not sure that I agree...

The reality is that quite often the difference between a red card and yellow card (and even between yellow and a stern talking-to) boils down to HUMAN judgment and discretion. The video replay establishes the factual event, but the interpretation of such events will still ALWAYS come down to human judgment and opinion.

I thought the presence of VAR is exactly that to be technical and devoid of human subjectivity and render precise judgment. In this case VAR did its job but was subsequently overruled by human emotion! I am with E2 on this...

You thought wrong!

The use of VAR is to assist refs in rendering judgement; human judgement...Ultimately the final decision remains with the refs.

Txj,

I think the VAR is doing what it is expected to do i.e assist the officials. I do not criticize that. However, I do criticize a referee who was presented with facts and made a judgment that was wrong. A deliberate elbow to the face is certainly a red card offense and the referee's decision on that was exceedingly lenient.

He did not think it was deliberate, hence the YC...

Kpom!

He saw the elbow (thanks to the VAR) and then had to make the human judgment if it was deliberate.

VAR is not supposed to be used for Yellow card decisions. It's not so good for Jara on replays but it is doubtfull if it was deliberate but the replays makes it look like a professional foul. VAR is a usefull tool for the referee but the final decision is still with humans


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:03 pm 
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Kabalega wrote:
Jara's elbow, while anchored, did NOT move in isolation from the rest of the body.
He didn't swing the elbow to harm an opponent. Otherwise, it would have been a straight red.

He could have anchored the elbow, to protect himself, just like goalies dangerously raise their knee when grabbing a ball.
Hence, the yellow.


Was there intent when the cameroon player raised his foot/studs and got sent off vs. Germany. Is there intent when a players goes in two footed or leg over the ball? But all those are RC offenses.. Because they are reckless plays..

Intent is subjective but recklesses is not tolerated in the game. Jara (in absence of proof of intent) was reckless just like you should not be jumping for a aerial challenge leading with your elbows. Jara's elbow was out and away from his body. If he claims he wanted to go shoulder to shoulder then his elbow should be tucked closer to his body & not that far extended from his body.

Very bad call by the ref.. Ref bottled it in order not to ruin rhe game I think..

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:30 pm 
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analyzer wrote:
Kabalega wrote:
Jara's elbow, while anchored, did NOT move in isolation from the rest of the body.
He didn't swing the elbow to harm an opponent. Otherwise, it would have been a straight red.

He could have anchored the elbow, to protect himself, just like goalies dangerously raise their knee when grabbing a ball.
Hence, the yellow.


Was there intent when the cameroon player raised his foot/studs and got sent off vs. Germany. Is there intent when a players goes in two footed or leg over the ball? But all those are RC offenses.. Because they are reckless plays..

Intent is subjective but recklesses is not tolerated in the game. Jara (in absence of proof of intent) was reckless just like you should not be jumping for a aerial challenge leading with your elbows. Jara's elbow was out and away from his body. If he claims he wanted to go shoulder to shoulder then his elbow should be tucked closer to his body & not that far extended from his body.

Very bad call by the ref.. Ref bottled it in order not to ruin rhe game I think..


He wasn't reckless either...I think the refs conclusion was that it t was inadvertent, hence the YC.

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We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 5:57 pm 
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So this is not reckless? Let every player start contesting balls with their elbows out. Why is his elbow that far our from his body in what should be shoulder to shoulder

The Jara guy even put a swing at the end but not reckless. Ok oh!!

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 7:38 pm 
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folem wrote:
VAR is not supposed to be used for Yellow card decisions. It's not so good for Jara on replays but it is doubtfull if it was deliberate but the replays makes it look like a professional foul. VAR is a usefull tool for the referee but the final decision is still with humans

The VAR cannot be used to REVIEW a yellow card decision...
But nothing states that it cannot be used to MAKE a yellow card decision.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:00 pm 
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analyzer wrote:




So this is not reckless? Let every player start contesting balls with their elbows out. Why is his elbow that far our from his body in what should be shoulder to shoulder

The Jara guy even put a swing at the end but not reckless. Ok oh!!


IMHO, the fact that the referee watched the replace and still did not send off the players raises questions about his judgment. If it was not reckless, if it was not intentional, one has to wonder what it was. In essence one can swing his elbow out and high and players can be injured from it and the punishment is just a caution after the benefit of watching it in slow mo. There is certainly genuine question about that referee's competence.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:04 pm 
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No evidence, but my Impression is that refs are supposed to be very cautious to send a Player Off in a final (both FIFA/uefa)

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 8:29 pm 
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Football should go learn from rugby union on the use of video ..

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 04, 2017 11:35 pm 
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Enugu II wrote:
IMHO, the fact that the referee watched the replace and still did not send off the players raises questions about his judgment. If it was not reckless, if it was not intentional, one has to wonder what it was. In essence one can swing his elbow out and high and players can be injured from it and the punishment is just a caution after the benefit of watching it in slow mo. There is certainly genuine question about that referee's competence.

Judgment by its nature is subjective...

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