AFCON 2019 - 24 teams

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Re: AFCON 2019 - 24 teams

Post by nemi2002 »

They should just stop the qualifiers....
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Re: AFCON 2019 - 24 teams

Post by Enugu II »

ohenhen1 wrote:
jette1 wrote:They should extend random invitation to a random National team as an honorary participant
Nope, I don't want that.

South America is forced to do that, because there are only 10 Conembol members. So they invite countries to make up the numbers. Africa have no reason to do that.
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Re: AFCON 2019 - 24 teams

Post by Enugu II »

The YeyeMan wrote:Further dilution of a tournament which has been low on quality for several years.
The Yeyeman,

TBH, I think the argument of dilution is quite spurious. It was used when the WC went from 16 to 14, from 24 to 32 and now from 32 to 48. Guess what, fans always get used to it and teams that are considered minnow catch u[p to others in terms of being difficult to beat. I expect the same to occur with AFCON. Already CAF has about 14 teams that are considered top notch in the continent. The other ten are not far behind and in this group include the likes of Kenya and Tanzania that have created frightful moments for Nigeria. Lets see how you feel after two editions of the new format. I can already predict. :rotf:
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Re: AFCON 2019 - 24 teams

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Enugu II wrote:
The YeyeMan wrote:Further dilution of a tournament which has been low on quality for several years.
The Yeyeman,

TBH, I think the argument of dilution is quite spurious. It was used when the WC went from 16 to 14, from 24 to 32 and now from 32 to 48. Guess what, fans always get used to it and teams that are considered minnow catch u[p to others in terms of being difficult to beat. I expect the same to occur with AFCON. Already CAF has about 14 teams that are considered top notch in the continent. The other ten are not far behind and in this group include the likes of Kenya and Tanzania that have created frightful moments for Nigeria. Lets see how you feel after two editions of the new format. I can already predict. :rotf:
Unfortunately comparing this to fifa's increase is not going to give you a good parallel. Fifa is about 200 nations so you are moving from 24/200 to 32/200 while for CAF, it's 16/54 to 24/54. There's likelihood that quality may actually still improve with fifa or at worst stagnate in view of the much wider field, considering that every WC, we still have up to 8-10 countries based on pedigrees and experience who should have qualified but miss out to GD or even a couple of points difference. For CAF, we are already grappling with release of players for preparatory training camps coupled with having amoebic sides the likes of Guinea Bissau, Botswana etc, you now increase the number to where the likes of Gambia, South Sudan etc may just get there by happenstance...you are asking for a lot of first round snoozefests and overtime, it will have no impact on your income as the fans at game, which are already sparse, and sponsorship will dwindle.

The best way is to compare this with Europe which moved from 16/51 to 24/51 and we saw the effect in the last Euros and whichever way you look at it, afcon will have the quality of Euros.
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Re: AFCON 2019 - 24 teams

Post by Enugu II »

anointed wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
The YeyeMan wrote:Further dilution of a tournament which has been low on quality for several years.
The Yeyeman,

TBH, I think the argument of dilution is quite spurious. It was used when the WC went from 16 to 14, from 24 to 32 and now from 32 to 48. Guess what, fans always get used to it and teams that are considered minnow catch u[p to others in terms of being difficult to beat. I expect the same to occur with AFCON. Already CAF has about 14 teams that are considered top notch in the continent. The other ten are not far behind and in this group include the likes of Kenya and Tanzania that have created frightful moments for Nigeria. Lets see how you feel after two editions of the new format. I can already predict. :rotf:
Unfortunately comparing this to fifa's increase is not going to give you a good parallel. Fifa is about 200 nations so you are moving from 24/200 to 32/200 while for CAF, it's 16/54 to 24/54. There's likelihood that quality may actually still improve with fifa or at worst stagnate in view of the much wider field, considering that every WC, we still have up to 8-10 countries based on pedigrees and experience who should have qualified but miss out to GD or even a couple of points difference. For CAF, we are already grappling with release of players for preparatory training camps coupled with having amoebic sides the likes of Guinea Bissau, Botswana etc, you now increase the number to where the likes of Gambia, South Sudan etc may just get there by happenstance...you are asking for a lot of first round snoozefests and overtime, it will have no impact on your income as the fans at game, which are already sparse, and sponsorship will dwindle.

The best way is to compare this with Europe which moved from 16/51 to 24/51 and we saw the effect in the last Euros and whichever way you look at it, afcon will have the quality of Euros.
I think the comparison is okay and even with the Euros. I see nothing that was exceeding poor with a 24-team Euro TBH. Except of course for the format that allowed 3rd placed teams to qualify from groups. That is what encouraged defensive tactics. The format.

Guinea Bissau was a very competitive team. I watched them at the last AFCON and they were good, BTW. Guess what? They beat good teams in the qualifiers to get to AFCON where Nigeria could bot qualify. Try and come up with a list of perceived good African teams and I assure you that you will get about 14 of them and the rest are teams that can challenge that 14. I am looking forward to a 24-team tournament and I believe it will be interesting. The only thing I worry about is that with 24 you will have three teams qualify from a group of 4 which encourages defensive soccer. That is the downside but if we have a format that encourages play, no one will worry about this stuff.
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Re: AFCON 2019 - 24 teams

Post by nianiote »

Was Cameroon even consulted before taking this decision ?
Why change the rule for the very next AFCON ? 2019 is very close.
I'm not sure they will be ready for the additional stadiums and infrastucture this decision implies.
I think Morocco is CAF backup plan.
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Re: AFCON 2019 - 24 teams

Post by ohenhen1 »

Cameroon should challenge this decision. Maybe a joint bid with another country. Similar to what happened in 2000, Nigeria and Ghana joining forces to host the Afcon. We do have Stadiums in Akwa Ibom and Rivers ready to host the event. I think it will be unfair to take the Afcon from Cameroon now
and give it to Morocco. The same country that abandoned the chance to host the event over fears of a Ebola crisis.
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Re: AFCON 2019 - 24 teams

Post by folem »

Enugu II wrote:
anointed wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
The YeyeMan wrote:Further dilution of a tournament which has been low on quality for several years.
The Yeyeman,

TBH, I think the argument of dilution is quite spurious. It was used when the WC went from 16 to 14, from 24 to 32 and now from 32 to 48. Guess what, fans always get used to it and teams that are considered minnow catch u[p to others in terms of being difficult to beat. I expect the same to occur with AFCON. Already CAF has about 14 teams that are considered top notch in the continent. The other ten are not far behind and in this group include the likes of Kenya and Tanzania that have created frightful moments for Nigeria. Lets see how you feel after two editions of the new format. I can already predict. :rotf:
Unfortunately comparing this to fifa's increase is not going to give you a good parallel. Fifa is about 200 nations so you are moving from 24/200 to 32/200 while for CAF, it's 16/54 to 24/54. There's likelihood that quality may actually still improve with fifa or at worst stagnate in view of the much wider field, considering that every WC, we still have up to 8-10 countries based on pedigrees and experience who should have qualified but miss out to GD or even a couple of points difference. For CAF, we are already grappling with release of players for preparatory training camps coupled with having amoebic sides the likes of Guinea Bissau, Botswana etc, you now increase the number to where the likes of Gambia, South Sudan etc may just get there by happenstance...you are asking for a lot of first round snoozefests and overtime, it will have no impact on your income as the fans at game, which are already sparse, and sponsorship will dwindle.

The best way is to compare this with Europe which moved from 16/51 to 24/51 and we saw the effect in the last Euros and whichever way you look at it, afcon will have the quality of Euros.
I think the comparison is okay and even with the Euros. I see nothing that was exceeding poor with a 24-team Euro TBH. Except of course for the format that allowed 3rd placed teams to qualify from groups. That is what encouraged defensive tactics. The format.

Guinea Bissau was a very competitive team. I watched them at the last AFCON and they were good, BTW. Guess what? They beat good teams in the qualifiers to get to AFCON where Nigeria could bot qualify. Try and come up with a list of perceived good African teams and I assure you that you will get about 14 of them and the rest are teams that can challenge that 14. I am looking forward to a 24-team tournament and I believe it will be interesting. The only thing I worry about is that with 24 you will have three teams qualify from a group of 4 which encourages defensive soccer. That is the downside but if we have a format that encourages play, no one will worry about this stuff.
If CAF were to scrap the KO R16 for a 24 team format and go for a KO R8 it will reduce teams aiming to play 3 draws. Another format may be to cancel draws at GS just like FIFA is contemplating. I don't see much difference in quality between the top 16 teams and the next 8. Hosting is a different issue and the number of matches to be played since 3 week window may not be enough depending on the accepted format.
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Re: AFCON 2019 - 24 teams

Post by Enugu II »

folem wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
anointed wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
The YeyeMan wrote:Further dilution of a tournament which has been low on quality for several years.
The Yeyeman,

TBH, I think the argument of dilution is quite spurious. It was used when the WC went from 16 to 14, from 24 to 32 and now from 32 to 48. Guess what, fans always get used to it and teams that are considered minnow catch u[p to others in terms of being difficult to beat. I expect the same to occur with AFCON. Already CAF has about 14 teams that are considered top notch in the continent. The other ten are not far behind and in this group include the likes of Kenya and Tanzania that have created frightful moments for Nigeria. Lets see how you feel after two editions of the new format. I can already predict. :rotf:
Unfortunately comparing this to fifa's increase is not going to give you a good parallel. Fifa is about 200 nations so you are moving from 24/200 to 32/200 while for CAF, it's 16/54 to 24/54. There's likelihood that quality may actually still improve with fifa or at worst stagnate in view of the much wider field, considering that every WC, we still have up to 8-10 countries based on pedigrees and experience who should have qualified but miss out to GD or even a couple of points difference. For CAF, we are already grappling with release of players for preparatory training camps coupled with having amoebic sides the likes of Guinea Bissau, Botswana etc, you now increase the number to where the likes of Gambia, South Sudan etc may just get there by happenstance...you are asking for a lot of first round snoozefests and overtime, it will have no impact on your income as the fans at game, which are already sparse, and sponsorship will dwindle.

The best way is to compare this with Europe which moved from 16/51 to 24/51 and we saw the effect in the last Euros and whichever way you look at it, afcon will have the quality of Euros.
I think the comparison is okay and even with the Euros. I see nothing that was exceeding poor with a 24-team Euro TBH. Except of course for the format that allowed 3rd placed teams to qualify from groups. That is what encouraged defensive tactics. The format.

Guinea Bissau was a very competitive team. I watched them at the last AFCON and they were good, BTW. Guess what? They beat good teams in the qualifiers to get to AFCON where Nigeria could bot qualify. Try and come up with a list of perceived good African teams and I assure you that you will get about 14 of them and the rest are teams that can challenge that 14. I am looking forward to a 24-team tournament and I believe it will be interesting. The only thing I worry about is that with 24 you will have three teams qualify from a group of 4 which encourages defensive soccer. That is the downside but if we have a format that encourages play, no one will worry about this stuff.
If CAF were to scrap the KO R16 for a 24 team format and go for a KO R8 it will reduce teams aiming to play 3 draws. Another format may be to cancel draws at GS just like FIFA is contemplating. I don't see much difference in quality between thee top 16 teams and the next 8. Hosting is a different issue and the number of matches to be played since 3 week windows may not be enough depending on the accepted format.
Provide details of the highlighted. Before getting to KO8, how many groups and how many teams in each group? How many get to the KO phase after group phase?
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Re: AFCON 2019 - 24 teams

Post by BAP »

Enugu II wrote:
The YeyeMan wrote:Further dilution of a tournament which has been low on quality for several years.
The Yeyeman,

TBH, I think the argument of dilution is quite spurious. It was used when the WC went from 16 to 14, from 24 to 32 and now from 32 to 48. Guess what, fans always get used to it and teams that are considered minnow catch u[p to others in terms of being difficult to beat. I expect the same to occur with AFCON. Already CAF has about 14 teams that are considered top notch in the continent. The other ten are not far behind and in this group include the likes of Kenya and Tanzania that have created frightful moments for Nigeria. Lets see how you feel after two editions of the new format. I can already predict. :rotf:
i agree . Much ado about nothing if you ask me

We already have qualifiers and what this does is move some of the qualifiers into the tournament proper Which I think will be easier for participating teams from a budgetary standpoint.

Suffice to say that I don't buy the dilution argument and IMHO quality argument is largely Subjective when coming from from Nigerians primarily because of Lack of Participation by Nigeria and nothing else.
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Re: AFCON 2019 - 24 teams

Post by folem »

Enugu II wrote:
folem wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
anointed wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
The YeyeMan wrote:Further dilution of a tournament which has been low on quality for several years.
The Yeyeman,

TBH, I think the argument of dilution is quite spurious. It was used when the WC went from 16 to 14, from 24 to 32 and now from 32 to 48. Guess what, fans always get used to it and teams that are considered minnow catch u[p to others in terms of being difficult to beat. I expect the same to occur with AFCON. Already CAF has about 14 teams that are considered top notch in the continent. The other ten are not far behind and in this group include the likes of Kenya and Tanzania that have created frightful moments for Nigeria. Lets see how you feel after two editions of the new format. I can already predict. :rotf:
Unfortunately comparing this to fifa's increase is not going to give you a good parallel. Fifa is about 200 nations so you are moving from 24/200 to 32/200 while for CAF, it's 16/54 to 24/54. There's likelihood that quality may actually still improve with fifa or at worst stagnate in view of the much wider field, considering that every WC, we still have up to 8-10 countries based on pedigrees and experience who should have qualified but miss out to GD or even a couple of points difference. For CAF, we are already grappling with release of players for preparatory training camps coupled with having amoebic sides the likes of Guinea Bissau, Botswana etc, you now increase the number to where the likes of Gambia, South Sudan etc may just get there by happenstance...you are asking for a lot of first round snoozefests and overtime, it will have no impact on your income as the fans at game, which are already sparse, and sponsorship will dwindle.

The best way is to compare this with Europe which moved from 16/51 to 24/51 and we saw the effect in the last Euros and whichever way you look at it, afcon will have the quality of Euros.
I think the comparison is okay and even with the Euros. I see nothing that was exceeding poor with a 24-team Euro TBH. Except of course for the format that allowed 3rd placed teams to qualify from groups. That is what encouraged defensive tactics. The format.

Guinea Bissau was a very competitive team. I watched them at the last AFCON and they were good, BTW. Guess what? They beat good teams in the qualifiers to get to AFCON where Nigeria could bot qualify. Try and come up with a list of perceived good African teams and I assure you that you will get about 14 of them and the rest are teams that can challenge that 14. I am looking forward to a 24-team tournament and I believe it will be interesting. The only thing I worry about is that with 24 you will have three teams qualify from a group of 4 which encourages defensive soccer. That is the downside but if we have a format that encourages play, no one will worry about this stuff.
If CAF were to scrap the KO R16 for a 24 team format and go for a KO R8 it will reduce teams aiming to play 3 draws. Another format may be to cancel draws at GS just like FIFA is contemplating. I don't see much difference in quality between thee top 16 teams and the next 8. Hosting is a different issue and the number of matches to be played since 3 week windows may not be enough depending on the accepted format.
Provide details of the highlighted. Before getting to KO8, how many groups and how many teams in each group? How many get to the KO phase after group phase?
In a scenario of 6 Groups of four with top place and 2 losers going through to KO stage.
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Re: AFCON 2019 - 24 teams

Post by txj »

The YeyeMan wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
The YeyeMan wrote:Further dilution of a tournament which has been low on quality for several years.
That is in the eye of the beholder. Tell that to a Swazi fan when Swaziland qualifies or tell that to the CAF Accountant. Bros, it is similar to the WC where you will not always see Germany v Brazil but will make do with Nigeria v South Korea. In the Copa, you will not always watch Brazil v Chile but will have to watch, if you wish, Bolivia v Venezuela or Peru.
I'm speaking from a footballing perspective - i.e. football quality, not a fan perspective or an accountants.

I'd be happy for the Swazi fans but the likelihood is that the team will be low on quality so as a neutral I simply won't be interested. I was happy for the Iceland fans at Euro 2016 but I'll be damned if I watched any of their games (except the defeat of England which was amusing).

Couldn't agree more. Would've been better to focus first on improving the quality of the event before an expansion...
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Re: AFCON 2019 - 24 teams

Post by txj »

Enugu II wrote:
The YeyeMan wrote:Further dilution of a tournament which has been low on quality for several years.
The Yeyeman,

TBH, I think the argument of dilution is quite spurious. It was used when the WC went from 16 to 14, from 24 to 32 and now from 32 to 48. Guess what, fans always get used to it and teams that are considered minnow catch u[p to others in terms of being difficult to beat. I expect the same to occur with AFCON. Already CAF has about 14 teams that are considered top notch in the continent. The other ten are not far behind and in this group include the likes of Kenya and Tanzania that have created frightful moments for Nigeria. Lets see how you feel after two editions of the new format. I can already predict. :rotf:

Not only is it not spurious, but your counter argument is very weak. FIFA is picking from a pool that is of a much higher standard and much greater diversity.

On the other hand, the quality of AFCON has consistently declined in the last two decades. Now you are expanding to draw in teams of even lower quality!
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Re: AFCON 2019 - 24 teams

Post by Rawlings »

ohenhen1 wrote:
Rawlings wrote:
The YeyeMan wrote:Further dilution of a tournament which has been low on quality for several years.
but now that is will be played off season, i.e. in June/July, we will have all the top players from Europe
There will be a lot of players boycotting the tournament. Players recovery from injuries and etc.
I don't think so
Europe & South America hold their tournaments at the end of the season and the best of the best shows up
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Re: AFCON 2019 - 24 teams

Post by pajimoh »

Camel-ruin don't even have a blade of grass for one player talk-less of 24 teams. Mssshhheew
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Re: AFCON 2019 - 24 teams

Post by Kabalega »

nianiote wrote:Was Cameroon even consulted before taking this decision ?
Why change the rule for the very next AFCON ? 2019 is very close.
I'm not sure they will be ready for the additional stadiums and infrastucture this decision implies.
I think Morocco is CAF backup plan.
Cameroon must have been consulted.

First, Cameroon is apparently renovating 32 stadia with 11 ready right now.
Whether the rest of the logistics and infrastructure will be in place, remains to be seen.
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Re: AFCON 2019 - 24 teams

Post by ohenhen1 »

I am looking at Cameroon preparation. There is no way they will be ready in time. They should put their pride aside and approach Nigeria to be joint host.
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Re: AFCON 2019 - 24 teams

Post by Cito »

folem wrote:If CAF were to scrap the KO R16 for a 24 team format and go for a KO R8 it will reduce teams aiming to play 3 draws. Another format may be to cancel draws at GS just like FIFA is contemplating. I don't see much difference in quality between the top 16 teams and the next 8. Hosting is a different issue and the number of matches to be played since 3 week window may not be enough depending on the accepted format.
I wonder if CAF could counter the draw specialists by going a bold new direction in the points system.
Award points based on the amount of goals scored in a tied game. 0.5 points for a 0-0 draw, 1 for a 1-1 draw and 1.5 fro a 2-2 draw. Cap it at 2 points for any draws of 3-3 and above. This will deter the draw seeking teams and promote a better scoring and open game. A win retains it normal 3 points.

Draw specialist seeking 0-0 will run the risk of finishing 1.5 points and this may not be enough at the end of the preliminaries.

They need to maintain the 24-->16-->8-->4-->2 system where you start with 24 teams divided into 6 groups of 4. After preliminary stages, the 2 best teams in each group coupled with the 4 best 3rd placed teams will advance to round 2 of knockouts.
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Re: AFCON 2019 - 24 teams

Post by Rawlings »

ohenhen1 wrote:I am looking at Cameroon preparation. There is no way they will be ready in time. They should put their pride aside and approach Nigeria to be joint host.
I am all for that if Naija will still have to qualify
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Re: AFCON 2019 - 24 teams

Post by Enugu II »

txj wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
The YeyeMan wrote:Further dilution of a tournament which has been low on quality for several years.
The Yeyeman,

TBH, I think the argument of dilution is quite spurious. It was used when the WC went from 16 to 14, from 24 to 32 and now from 32 to 48. Guess what, fans always get used to it and teams that are considered minnow catch u[p to others in terms of being difficult to beat. I expect the same to occur with AFCON. Already CAF has about 14 teams that are considered top notch in the continent. The other ten are not far behind and in this group include the likes of Kenya and Tanzania that have created frightful moments for Nigeria. Lets see how you feel after two editions of the new format. I can already predict. :rotf:

Not only is it not spurious, but your counter argument is very weak. FIFA is picking from a pool that is of a much higher standard and much greater diversity.

On the other hand, the quality of AFCON has consistently declined in the last two decades. Now you are expanding to draw in teams of even lower quality!

As I stated, the argument about dilution is a very poor one. It has not stood the test of time at the World Cup level and will not stand that same test in either Europe or Africa. IMHO, it is a shortsighted argument that assumes that simply increasing the number of teams that converge in one place for a tournament equals dilution. I could write a page to undermine this argument that is largely a nonstarter. Now, we should exempt the WC because the argument no longer holds water but you forget that it was made when the teams increased to 24 and then 32 and now top 48. The fact the argument was made and was later found wanting should be enough to make you wonder about the strength of such argument.

Further, note that over 50 teams contest for the AFCON whenever it is scheduled. All this does is talk a large part of those qualifiers to a venue to still determine an AFCON final. I do not see how those set of AFCON games suddenly becomes diluted.

BTW, here are 18 teams that have given us or any of the African top guns fits and will continue to do so for the foreseeable future (I have included the top guns also):

1. South Africa
2. Zambia
3. Congo DR
4. Congo Rep.
5. Uganda
6. Tunisia
7. Algeria
8. Egypt
9. Morocco
10. Zimbabwe
11. Cameroon
12. Senegal
13. I/Coast
14. Togo
15. Nigeria
16. Ghana
17. Burkina Faso
18. Mali
19. Cape Verde
20. Guinea

Now tell me about dilution. I have not included Kenya, Ethiopia, Guinea Bissau, Angola, Gabon, Tanzania that are just a rung below. I have skipped NIger Republic and Botswana that were recently in a 16-team AFCON. Talk of dilution.

What I may agree with you is that the format, like the Euros, may adversely affect the quality of the game i.e. they are likely to lack entertainment because a draw is beneficial. But the quality of the teams will not be below what the AFCON generally gets. The pool of strong teams is deep enough to carry a 24-team tournament.
The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
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bamenda boy
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Re: AFCON 2019 - 24 teams

Post by bamenda boy »

As much as I would love for Cameroon to be stropped the hosting rights, I don't think it is fair for them (CAF)to change the rules of the game in the middle of the game. Looks more like settling scores.
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Re: AFCON 2019 - 24 teams

Post by Thelastoneleft »

Dammy wrote:
folem wrote:
Rawlings wrote:This is very very good news for Naija
Maybe that was Pinnick's motivation all along. Changing the rules of hosting & qualification in the middle of the game. Smells fishy just like the claim that Sudan clubs only lost the GS matches while under FIFA suspension and not DQ. Morocco also on standby as alternative host. Too much politicking.
How will Cameroon with only 2 stadiums host 24 teams?
KPAM!! That is exactly what people should be concerned at now. That sh!thole of a country cannot be able to host the tourney. People should pressure CAF to do the right thing by withdrawing the hosting right from Cameroon and give it to a real country.
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Re: AFCON 2019 - 24 teams

Post by Enugu II »

bamenda boy wrote:As much as I would love for Cameroon to be stropped the hosting rights, I don't think it is fair for them (CAF)to change the rules of the game in the middle of the game. Looks more like settling scores.
That is exactly what it is. Implementing 24-team AFCON is a way to claim that Cameroon could not meet the demand and stripping was an objective decision. Morocco, with better facilities, is now salivating. This is an arrangee from the get go. Make no mistake about it.
The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
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