To BE OR NOT TO BE: Video at the 2018 WC.....

Where Eagles dare! Discuss Nigerian related football (soccer) topics here.

Moderators: Moderator Team, phpBB2 - Administrators

Post Reply
Enugu II
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 23533
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 2:39 am
Location: Super Eagles Homeland
To BE OR NOT TO BE: Video at the 2018 WC.....

Post by Enugu II »

Personally, I want VAR to be put to use at the WC.
November 24, 2017
Ceferin adds his voice to doubts over use of VAR at World Cup finals
http://keirradnedge.com/2017/11/24/ceferin-var-doubt/


UEFA president Aleksander Ceferin has added his voice to scepticism about over-hasty introduction of video refereeing at the World Cup finals next June and July writes KEIR RADNEDGE.

Gianni Infantino, the former UEFA general secretary who is now had of world federation FIFA, has repeatedly talked up the use of VAR in Russia.

However, that depends on a positive verdict from the law-making International Football Association Board next March and, thus far, feedback from round-the-world trials has been mixed.

Greatest turmoil has come from Germany where a fullscale trial was launched this season in the Bundesliga with controversial and contentious results. Speculation has arisen that the trial may be scrapped during the winter break.

Ceferin, the president of European federation UEFA, contributed to the negativity with comments to Italian newspaper La Repubblica.

He estimated it would be “too early” to impose VAR at the World Cup in Russia where, last summer, a trial raised some applicatory confusion during the Confederations Cup.

Ceferin said: “I know we will not go back but, on this subject, I’m a little conservative. The referee must remain the judge otherwise it would be like handing over the job to a robot.”

First discussions among members of IFAB were due to have been held at its business meeting in Abu Dhabi next month. However this has had to be postponed to January.

UEFA has no vote at IFAB which comprises one vote each for the four British home associations and four votes for FIFA. However a two-thirds majority is needed to enact a substantive law change. None of the British associations has undertaken formal trials.
The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
User avatar
Cellular
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 53665
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 5:59 pm
Location: Nembe Creek...Oil Exploration. If you call am bunkering na you sabi.
Re: To BE OR NOT TO BE: Video at the 2018 WC.....

Post by Cellular »

Enugu II wrote:Personally, I want VAR to be put to use at the WC.
November 24, 2017
Ceferin adds his voice to doubts over use of VAR at World Cup finals
http://keirradnedge.com/2017/11/24/ceferin-var-doubt/


UEFA president Aleksander Ceferin has added his voice to scepticism about over-hasty introduction of video refereeing at the World Cup finals next June and July writes KEIR RADNEDGE.

Gianni Infantino, the former UEFA general secretary who is now had of world federation FIFA, has repeatedly talked up the use of VAR in Russia.

However, that depends on a positive verdict from the law-making International Football Association Board next March and, thus far, feedback from round-the-world trials has been mixed.

Greatest turmoil has come from Germany where a fullscale trial was launched this season in the Bundesliga with controversial and contentious results. Speculation has arisen that the trial may be scrapped during the winter break.

Ceferin, the president of European federation UEFA, contributed to the negativity with comments to Italian newspaper La Repubblica.

He estimated it would be “too early” to impose VAR at the World Cup in Russia where, last summer, a trial raised some applicatory confusion during the Confederations Cup.

Ceferin said: “I know we will not go back but, on this subject, I’m a little conservative. The referee must remain the judge otherwise it would be like handing over the job to a robot.”

First discussions among members of IFAB were due to have been held at its business meeting in Abu Dhabi next month. However this has had to be postponed to January.

UEFA has no vote at IFAB which comprises one vote each for the four British home associations and four votes for FIFA. However a two-thirds majority is needed to enact a substantive law change. None of the British associations has undertaken formal trials.
They better find a way to adopt it.

Instead of being afraid of technology, they should be looking at how to streamline it. Maybe modify it to be used only when the ball goes out of touch... meaning, they will not catch all of the missed calls. Or have teams be given one challenge a game.

They just have to find a way.
THERE WAS A COUNTRY...

...can't cry more than the bereaved!

Well done is better than well said!!!
Enugu II
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 23533
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 2:39 am
Location: Super Eagles Homeland
Re: To BE OR NOT TO BE: Video at the 2018 WC.....

Post by Enugu II »

Cell,

I agree. The problems (atleast at the Confed Cup) was not the technology but the fact that FIFA gave the refs discretion over technology and that is rubbish, IMHO. FIFA needs to correct that by having a 4th referee who makes his/her ruling solely based on technology but is considered part of the officiating crew. To retain some of powers assigned to the referee, FIFA may restrict when (number of times) the technology may be used in a game.
Cellular wrote:
Enugu II wrote:Personally, I want VAR to be put to use at the WC.
November 24, 2017
Ceferin adds his voice to doubts over use of VAR at World Cup finals
http://keirradnedge.com/2017/11/24/ceferin-var-doubt/


UEFA president Aleksander Ceferin has added his voice to scepticism about over-hasty introduction of video refereeing at the World Cup finals next June and July writes KEIR RADNEDGE.

Gianni Infantino, the former UEFA general secretary who is now had of world federation FIFA, has repeatedly talked up the use of VAR in Russia.

However, that depends on a positive verdict from the law-making International Football Association Board next March and, thus far, feedback from round-the-world trials has been mixed.

Greatest turmoil has come from Germany where a fullscale trial was launched this season in the Bundesliga with controversial and contentious results. Speculation has arisen that the trial may be scrapped during the winter break.

Ceferin, the president of European federation UEFA, contributed to the negativity with comments to Italian newspaper La Repubblica.

He estimated it would be “too early” to impose VAR at the World Cup in Russia where, last summer, a trial raised some applicatory confusion during the Confederations Cup.

Ceferin said: “I know we will not go back but, on this subject, I’m a little conservative. The referee must remain the judge otherwise it would be like handing over the job to a robot.”

First discussions among members of IFAB were due to have been held at its business meeting in Abu Dhabi next month. However this has had to be postponed to January.

UEFA has no vote at IFAB which comprises one vote each for the four British home associations and four votes for FIFA. However a two-thirds majority is needed to enact a substantive law change. None of the British associations has undertaken formal trials.
They better find a way to adopt it.

Instead of being afraid of technology, they should be looking at how to streamline it. Maybe modify it to be used only when the ball goes out of touch... meaning, they will not catch all of the missed calls. Or have teams be given one challenge a game.

They just have to find a way.
Last edited by Enugu II on Fri Nov 24, 2017 4:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
User avatar
Synopsis
Egg
Egg
Posts: 1813
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:57 pm
Re: To BE OR NOT TO BE: Video at the 2018 WC.....

Post by Synopsis »

Yes, but capped at one use per game.
Enugu II
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 23533
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 2:39 am
Location: Super Eagles Homeland
Re: To BE OR NOT TO BE: Video at the 2018 WC.....

Post by Enugu II »

Synopsis wrote:Yes, but capped at one use per game.
I would like about 4 uses in the game, two each half. If in ET, then an additional two in extra time.
The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
User avatar
Yiba
Egg
Egg
Posts: 4561
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 2:23 pm
Re: To BE OR NOT TO BE: Video at the 2018 WC.....

Post by Yiba »

Before I add my 2 cents to the debate about VAR, let me make a confession to Enugu II. I remember in 2001, I won a book from him based on the questions he randomly asked about officiating on this site. What EnuguII, did not know at the time was that as a certified Referee, we deal with these questions every day in Germany. I read the book about the Super Eagles he sent and I found the content interesting.

VAR is a subject of controversy in the Bundesliga. In fact, German precision met it's drawback in human interpretation.

There are 4 referees on duty since the start of this season's Bundesliga. The 4th official makes the calls that the officiating referee did not see using video evidence.

It has led to biased officiating and more chaos. The head of the pilot VAR in the Bundesliga, Helmut Krug, had to go. Because he used his influence to assist Schalke in decisions.

I think the VAR project has been a disgrace because technology can't solve everything. Let us admit that as humans, we have our flaws.

It is easy for me to say because after watching the VAR in action in the Bundesliga, justice in football is nothing but an illusion.
goldenera94
Egg
Egg
Posts: 1759
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2008 4:02 am
Location: New York
Contact:
Re: To BE OR NOT TO BE: Video at the 2018 WC.....

Post by goldenera94 »

Why the limit? for example, Eagles ball crosses the opponent goal line multiple times, how is it fair to be limited in VAR. Once it is proven accurate, it should be used and be part of the game.


Synopsis wrote:Yes, but capped at one use per game.
Goldenera94
User avatar
Scipio Africanus
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 31608
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 7:43 pm
Location: Cyberspace
Re: To BE OR NOT TO BE: Video at the 2018 WC.....

Post by Scipio Africanus »

E be like say Russia wan apply ojoro, casting doubt on VAR. Abeg, they should use VAR. Had VAR been used in the last WC, we would have beaten France. If I recall correctly, we also got a goal wrongly disallowed against Iran.

Wha choo looking at?!
User avatar
Synopsis
Egg
Egg
Posts: 1813
Joined: Wed Jun 10, 2015 6:57 pm
Re: To BE OR NOT TO BE: Video at the 2018 WC.....

Post by Synopsis »

Enugu II wrote:
Synopsis wrote:Yes, but capped at one use per game.
I would like about 4 uses in the game, two each half. If in ET, then an additional two in extra time.
Too much of its use can kill the fluidity of a match (see Confed cup). 2 uses could add roughly 6 mins of additional injury time per half.
I am ok with 1 a half. Are these referees so incompetent?
goldenera94 wrote:Why the limit? for example, Eagles ball crosses the opponent goal line multiple times, how is it fair to be limited in VAR. Once it is proven accurate, it should be used and be part of the game.


Synopsis wrote:Yes, but capped at one use per game.

Goal line technology =/= VAR.
User avatar
txj
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 37779
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:35 pm
Re: To BE OR NOT TO BE: Video at the 2018 WC.....

Post by txj »

I think its too soon for the WC; unfortunately.

It needs a full season's worth of empirical data.

The most successful use of VAR has been in the MLS, not surprisingly because the US is well ahead of the curve in use of video replays in sports generally.

Its also been fairly successful in Serie A this season.

The issue in Germany had to do with human errors, ironically and sadly...But it is also improving as the season has gone on.

The mental adjustment wrt players, coaches and fans will happen eventually; esp the latter...
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
User avatar
highbury
Egg
Egg
Posts: 5868
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2004 8:05 pm
Re: To BE OR NOT TO BE: Video at the 2018 WC.....

Post by highbury »

Lol. FIFA/UEFA want to maintain control over the game. They want to be able to still determine the results. If you think games are only won in the field, you are sorely mistaken
User avatar
Cellular
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 53665
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 5:59 pm
Location: Nembe Creek...Oil Exploration. If you call am bunkering na you sabi.
Re: To BE OR NOT TO BE: Video at the 2018 WC.....

Post by Cellular »

txj wrote:I think its too soon for the WC; unfortunately.

It needs a full season's worth of empirical data.

The most successful use of VAR has been in the MLS, not surprisingly because the US is well ahead of the curve in use of video replays in sports generally.

Its also been fairly successful in Serie A this season.

The issue in Germany had to do with human errors, ironically and sadly...But it is also improving as the season has gone on.

The mental adjustment wrt players, coaches and fans will happen eventually; esp the latter...
The stakes are too high not to use technology or adapt technology to improve the game.

Sending letters after bad decisions will not be of any value to teams.

Also, they should look at sending off due to players conning the referees as well as off the ball fouls the refs might not have caught... these can be adjudicated after the game is over.
THERE WAS A COUNTRY...

...can't cry more than the bereaved!

Well done is better than well said!!!
User avatar
txj
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 37779
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:35 pm
Re: To BE OR NOT TO BE: Video at the 2018 WC.....

Post by txj »

Cellular wrote:
txj wrote:I think its too soon for the WC; unfortunately.

It needs a full season's worth of empirical data.

The most successful use of VAR has been in the MLS, not surprisingly because the US is well ahead of the curve in use of video replays in sports generally.

Its also been fairly successful in Serie A this season.

The issue in Germany had to do with human errors, ironically and sadly...But it is also improving as the season has gone on.

The mental adjustment wrt players, coaches and fans will happen eventually; esp the latter...
The stakes are too high not to use technology or adapt technology to improve the game.

Sending letters after bad decisions will not be of any value to teams.

Also, they should look at sending off due to players conning the referees as well as off the ball fouls the refs might not have caught... these can be adjudicated after the game is over.

The example from the Confed cup was not a good advert for the game either. These things require time, unfortunately.
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
User avatar
mcal
Flying Eagle
Flying Eagle
Posts: 56260
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2005 3:01 am
Location: world of the americas
Re: To BE OR NOT TO BE: Video at the 2018 WC.....

Post by mcal »

Enugu II wrote:
Synopsis wrote:Yes, but capped at one use per game.
I would like about 4 uses in the game, two each half. If in ET, then an additional two in extra time.
...so after 2 uses and many more questionable calls come up what do they do, and how will the fans feel? They should use from beginning to end.
User avatar
Cellular
Site Admin
Site Admin
Posts: 53665
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 5:59 pm
Location: Nembe Creek...Oil Exploration. If you call am bunkering na you sabi.
Re: To BE OR NOT TO BE: Video at the 2018 WC.....

Post by Cellular »

txj wrote:
Cellular wrote:
txj wrote:I think its too soon for the WC; unfortunately.

It needs a full season's worth of empirical data.

The most successful use of VAR has been in the MLS, not surprisingly because the US is well ahead of the curve in use of video replays in sports generally.

Its also been fairly successful in Serie A this season.

The issue in Germany had to do with human errors, ironically and sadly...But it is also improving as the season has gone on.

The mental adjustment wrt players, coaches and fans will happen eventually; esp the latter...
The stakes are too high not to use technology or adapt technology to improve the game.

Sending letters after bad decisions will not be of any value to teams.

Also, they should look at sending off due to players conning the referees as well as off the ball fouls the refs might not have caught... these can be adjudicated after the game is over.

The example from the Confed cup was not a good advert for the game either. These things require time, unfortunately.
It is the process (flow) that is the problem not the technology.

They should borrow from the MLS and other leagues where they have adapted it well enough.
There's currently 6 officials (Referree, 2 linesman, 2 goal line officials, a match commissioner). There should be a VAR official who should be in constant communication with the other refs.

They should adapt. The key is the willingness to adapt...
THERE WAS A COUNTRY...

...can't cry more than the bereaved!

Well done is better than well said!!!
User avatar
txj
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 37779
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:35 pm
Re: To BE OR NOT TO BE: Video at the 2018 WC.....

Post by txj »

Cellular wrote:
txj wrote:
Cellular wrote:
txj wrote:I think its too soon for the WC; unfortunately.

It needs a full season's worth of empirical data.

The most successful use of VAR has been in the MLS, not surprisingly because the US is well ahead of the curve in use of video replays in sports generally.

Its also been fairly successful in Serie A this season.

The issue in Germany had to do with human errors, ironically and sadly...But it is also improving as the season has gone on.

The mental adjustment wrt players, coaches and fans will happen eventually; esp the latter...
The stakes are too high not to use technology or adapt technology to improve the game.

Sending letters after bad decisions will not be of any value to teams.

Also, they should look at sending off due to players conning the referees as well as off the ball fouls the refs might not have caught... these can be adjudicated after the game is over.

The example from the Confed cup was not a good advert for the game either. These things require time, unfortunately.
It is the process (flow) that is the problem not the technology.

They should borrow from the MLS and other leagues where they have adapted it well enough.
There's currently 6 officials (Referree, 2 linesman, 2 goal line officials, a match commissioner). There should be a VAR official who should be in constant communication with the other refs.

They should adapt. The key is the willingness to adapt...
The willingness is there, hence its use in the Confed cup.

What is challenging is having to implement this with refs coming, not from any one league or country, but pretty much the entire globe!
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
User avatar
Kabalega
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 18679
Joined: Sat Jun 14, 2008 6:44 pm
Location: Here
Re: To BE OR NOT TO BE: Video at the 2018 WC.....

Post by Kabalega »

I think the officials should have ample training on before using VAR in Russia.
That would get rid of most Confederations issues.

The game is faster and the officials are struggling to keep up, so they need all the help they can get.
Now they have to make judgment calls about whether to use VAR or not. VAR is not conclusive either.
They cannot just fall to it for every incident.
“If your opponent is of choleric temper, seek to irritate him. Pretend to be weak, that he may grow arrogant.”- Sun Tzu
Enugu II
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 23533
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 2:39 am
Location: Super Eagles Homeland
Re: To BE OR NOT TO BE: Video at the 2018 WC.....

Post by Enugu II »

txj wrote:I think its too soon for the WC; unfortunately.

It needs a full season's worth of empirical data.

The most successful use of VAR has been in the MLS, not surprisingly because the US is well ahead of the curve in use of video replays in sports generally.

Its also been fairly successful in Serie A this season.

The issue in Germany had to do with human errors, ironically and sadly...But it is also improving as the season has gone on.

The mental adjustment wrt players, coaches and fans will happen eventually; esp the latter...
Txj

I see your point but the sooner it comes into the game, the better. We have controversy now without it.
The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
Enugu II
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 23533
Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 2:39 am
Location: Super Eagles Homeland
Re: To BE OR NOT TO BE: Video at the 2018 WC.....

Post by Enugu II »

Yiba wrote:Before I add my 2 cents to the debate about VAR, let me make a confession to Enugu II. I remember in 2001, I won a book from him based on the questions he randomly asked about officiating on this site. What EnuguII, did not know at the time was that as a certified Referee, we deal with these questions every day in Germany. I read the book about the Super Eagles he sent and I found the content interesting.

VAR is a subject of controversy in the Bundesliga. In fact, German precision met it's drawback in human interpretation.

There are 4 referees on duty since the start of this season's Bundesliga. The 4th official makes the calls that the officiating referee did not see using video evidence.

It has led to biased officiating and more chaos. The head of the pilot VAR in the Bundesliga, Helmut Krug, had to go. Because he used his influence to assist Schalke in decisions.

I think the VAR project has been a disgrace because technology can't solve everything. Let us admit that as humans, we have our flaws.

It is easy for me to say because after watching the VAR in action in the Bundesliga, justice in football is nothing but an illusion.
Yiba

Thanks for purchasing the book. I was not aware of specifics about bundesliga use of var. however it appears to be a human issue which will have not been avoided with non-var.
The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
User avatar
furiously frank
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 13082
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 7:18 pm
Re: To BE OR NOT TO BE: Video at the 2018 WC.....

Post by furiously frank »

I personally believed it will reduced the race based decision by some referees at the mundial
"That Justice is a blind goddess
Is a thing to which we blacks are wise.
Her bandage hides two festering sores
That once perhaps were eyes."
Langston Hughes, 1923
User avatar
highbury
Egg
Egg
Posts: 5868
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2004 8:05 pm
Re: To BE OR NOT TO BE: Video at the 2018 WC.....

Post by highbury »

furiously frank wrote:I personally believed it will reduced the race based decision by some referees at the mundial





No doubt!

Post Reply