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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 7:22 am 
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Free education on CEs..... :thumbs:


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 9:42 am 
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Enugu II wrote:
deanotito,

Bros, there are several Nigerian players that do what he describes and have that ability. The difference is that he understands the logic behind those movements i.e the Why. The others simply know how to but not the why. Even in Nigeria, some of what he describes is coached but I doubt that it is explained as he does in this interview.

I am not a coach but what he described is simply based on logic. I remember early in my child's football career, they will tell them never control the ball too close to your body. However, they were not told why. The reason is simply that having it close to your body will create inertia in your movement when in fact you need to move the ball with some momentum in many cases either away from a marker or to take advantage of space. Yet, it was not explained.

Thus, do not think that Nigerian players cannot do what is described. The only thing is that many of them, as well as other players elsewhere in the world, may not be able to explain why.

For me, the most important point that he made is that there is a need to explain to players why they should do a certain thing. That explanation may actually open them to taking initiative in thinking and visioning other things.

Enugu, good points about explaining. They say coaching is like teaching. In France, you couldn't coach unless you got a teaching certificate.

Oliseh is probably the only Nigerian player/coach that I think could articulate stuff like Xavi did. I can't think of any English player/ex that could do it. Did anyone else notice that the journo was also very knowledgeable about the game and seemed to be asking the right questions? Very few English hacks could pull this off (with the possible exception of Jonathan Wilson at the Guardian).

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 11:28 am 
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He just reinforced my judgement of how good a player is. Remove the physicality from a player, can that player make things happen. This is what makes Messi the daddy!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:06 pm 
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Quote:
De Bruyne and Silva have adapted to those positions because they're the type of player that knows how to profile himself to receive the ball in 360 degrees, they turn to every side, see the whole pitch. Because with Guardiola's style of play you need pure wingers, like Sane. Sane would find it difficult to play inside because ge couldn't do that small turn that give you space, the turn that Messi, Iniesta, Silva, De Bruyne or Giindogan have... Even Sterling has it if he's forced to do it. Sane doesn't. He needs space. Like Bale: if you play them inside they won't be as good. They have to play on the wing, dribble. Like Cristiano. He has more difficulty playing in the middle because he doesn't profile his body the right way. De Bruyne and Silva are spectacular. It seems as if we're just now discovering Silva.


The highlighted pretty much sums up everything we need to know that separates the genius footballer from the rest...

Well articulated by the guru himself: Xavi (creator of Time & Space)... :thumb:

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 12:11 pm 
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cic old boy wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
deanotito,

Bros, there are several Nigerian players that do what he describes and have that ability. The difference is that he understands the logic behind those movements i.e the Why. The others simply know how to but not the why. Even in Nigeria, some of what he describes is coached but I doubt that it is explained as he does in this interview.

I am not a coach but what he described is simply based on logic. I remember early in my child's football career, they will tell them never control the ball too close to your body. However, they were not told why. The reason is simply that having it close to your body will create inertia in your movement when in fact you need to move the ball with some momentum in many cases either away from a marker or to take advantage of space. Yet, it was not explained.

Thus, do not think that Nigerian players cannot do what is described. The only thing is that many of them, as well as other players elsewhere in the world, may not be able to explain why.

For me, the most important point that he made is that there is a need to explain to players why they should do a certain thing. That explanation may actually open them to taking initiative in thinking and visioning other things.

Enugu, good points about explaining. They say coaching is like teaching. In France, you couldn't coach unless you got a teaching certificate.

Oliseh is probably the only Nigerian player/coach that I think could articulate stuff like Xavi did. I can't think of any English player/ex that could do it. Did anyone else notice that the journo was also very knowledgeable about the game and seemed to be asking the right questions? Very few English hacks could pull this off (with the possible exception of Jonathan Wilson at the Guardian).


Richard Jolly ain't bad...
There is also Sid Lowe (he's English, no?) contributes on La Liga for several English media outlets...

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 1:10 pm 
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deanotito wrote:
maceo4 wrote:
deanotito wrote:
I wonder what he'd think about Okocha. Jay Jay had his mischief making years, but I always felt that if he had had the right coach at the right time, he had the goods to be greater than he was. The talent was there, but were the tactics and the maturity ever right until Bolton? He had 3 different coaches in 4 years at PSG...one of them played him as false 9 for quite a while.


I immediately thought of JJ when he finished Isco here lol:

Quote:
A: I think these young players have to know what Luis Aragones used to ask me: "How do you like to play? Pretty football or good football?" And at first I didn't understand. "What does that mean." "You give me good football. Pretty football is good, yes, but for cheating four guys." I don't want to give any names, but in La Liga we've all been impressed with a lot of players that have disappeared without leaving any mark. Yes, you can dribble, but for what? What stylish things does Messi do? Nothing. He does the work. Messi is good football and at the same time it's so good that it becomes pretty.


You know the one place where I have a slightly different opinion is on Messi. I believe Messi's playmaking, and creativity are definitely elite....But we've seen that level before. What makes Messi truly unique is that he combines those abilities with exceptional (truly exceptional) goal scoring abilities. The world has never seen that complete package before. Pele probably is in the same mould, but I don't think scored as many goals....It is Messi's goal scoring that makes him truly unique, and the best player I've ever seen. Maradona was a playmaker. Ronaldo was a scorer. Messi is a better playmaker and a better scorer than either. That's unprecedented.


Pele scored in excess of 1,200 goals in his career.
Messi at this point in his career has less than 600.
Now past his peak, he can never hope to catch Pele
in this category.

Pele was more of a complete package than Messi. He
could play equally well with both feet and his head.
Messi is predominantly left footed and rarely scores
with his head. Pele is head and shoulders above
everybody else in terms of talent and physicality.
I was impressed by Xavi's depth of knowledge but his
claims for higher physicality in this era is not entirely
accurate. In Pele's days, referees didn't protect strikers.
Tackling from behind was not outlawed. Then, one
had to be a physical specimen in order to display
talent.

Pele dominated men twice his age at 17, scoring a
hattrick in the 1958 WC semifinals and a brace in
the final.

Compare Messi to the other guys like Maradona,
and Ronaldo. Pele is untouchable.

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You heard the sound of a merry bell
Those who were rash and those who were not
Lost and made a spot of cash
He who gave the game away
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 3:10 pm 
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Ebyboy wrote:
deanotito wrote:
maceo4 wrote:
deanotito wrote:
I wonder what he'd think about Okocha. Jay Jay had his mischief making years, but I always felt that if he had had the right coach at the right time, he had the goods to be greater than he was. The talent was there, but were the tactics and the maturity ever right until Bolton? He had 3 different coaches in 4 years at PSG...one of them played him as false 9 for quite a while.


I immediately thought of JJ when he finished Isco here lol:

Quote:
A: I think these young players have to know what Luis Aragones used to ask me: "How do you like to play? Pretty football or good football?" And at first I didn't understand. "What does that mean." "You give me good football. Pretty football is good, yes, but for cheating four guys." I don't want to give any names, but in La Liga we've all been impressed with a lot of players that have disappeared without leaving any mark. Yes, you can dribble, but for what? What stylish things does Messi do? Nothing. He does the work. Messi is good football and at the same time it's so good that it becomes pretty.


You know the one place where I have a slightly different opinion is on Messi. I believe Messi's playmaking, and creativity are definitely elite....But we've seen that level before. What makes Messi truly unique is that he combines those abilities with exceptional (truly exceptional) goal scoring abilities. The world has never seen that complete package before. Pele probably is in the same mould, but I don't think scored as many goals....It is Messi's goal scoring that makes him truly unique, and the best player I've ever seen. Maradona was a playmaker. Ronaldo was a scorer. Messi is a better playmaker and a better scorer than either. That's unprecedented.


Pele scored in excess of 1,200 goals in his career.
Messi at this point in his career has less than 600.
Now past his peak, he can never hope to catch Pele
in this category.

Pele was more of a complete package than Messi. He
could play equally well with both feet and his head.
Messi is predominantly left footed and rarely scores
with his head. Pele is head and shoulders above
everybody else in terms of talent and physicality.
I was impressed by Xavi's depth of knowledge but his
claims for higher physicality in this era is not entirely
accurate. In Pele's days, referees didn't protect strikers.
Tackling from behind was not outlawed. Then, one
had to be a physical specimen in order to display
talent.

Pele dominated men twice his age at 17, scoring a
hattrick in the 1958 WC semifinals and a brace in
the final.

Compare Messi to the other guys like Maradona,
and Ronaldo. Pele is untouchable.


I like Messi but this drive to elevate him to a god is annoying.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:26 pm 
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Mr. Piffington wrote:
Ebyboy wrote:
deanotito wrote:
maceo4 wrote:
deanotito wrote:
I wonder what he'd think about Okocha. Jay Jay had his mischief making years, but I always felt that if he had had the right coach at the right time, he had the goods to be greater than he was. The talent was there, but were the tactics and the maturity ever right until Bolton? He had 3 different coaches in 4 years at PSG...one of them played him as false 9 for quite a while.


I immediately thought of JJ when he finished Isco here lol:

Quote:
A: I think these young players have to know what Luis Aragones used to ask me: "How do you like to play? Pretty football or good football?" And at first I didn't understand. "What does that mean." "You give me good football. Pretty football is good, yes, but for cheating four guys." I don't want to give any names, but in La Liga we've all been impressed with a lot of players that have disappeared without leaving any mark. Yes, you can dribble, but for what? What stylish things does Messi do? Nothing. He does the work. Messi is good football and at the same time it's so good that it becomes pretty.


You know the one place where I have a slightly different opinion is on Messi. I believe Messi's playmaking, and creativity are definitely elite....But we've seen that level before. What makes Messi truly unique is that he combines those abilities with exceptional (truly exceptional) goal scoring abilities. The world has never seen that complete package before. Pele probably is in the same mould, but I don't think scored as many goals....It is Messi's goal scoring that makes him truly unique, and the best player I've ever seen. Maradona was a playmaker. Ronaldo was a scorer. Messi is a better playmaker and a better scorer than either. That's unprecedented.


Pele scored in excess of 1,200 goals in his career.
Messi at this point in his career has less than 600.
Now past his peak, he can never hope to catch Pele
in this category.

Pele was more of a complete package than Messi. He
could play equally well with both feet and his head.
Messi is predominantly left footed and rarely scores
with his head. Pele is head and shoulders above
everybody else in terms of talent and physicality.
I was impressed by Xavi's depth of knowledge but his
claims for higher physicality in this era is not entirely
accurate. In Pele's days, referees didn't protect strikers.
Tackling from behind was not outlawed. Then, one
had to be a physical specimen in order to display
talent.

Pele dominated men twice his age at 17, scoring a
hattrick in the 1958 WC semifinals and a brace in
the final.

Compare Messi to the other guys like Maradona,
and Ronaldo. Pele is untouchable.


I like Messi but this drive to elevate him to a god is annoying.


So I just looked it up. Pele's career was about 18 years long. If we are counting official goals, per wikipedia, i.e. official games, Pele scored 727 goals. If we are counting all games, including unofficial etc, he scored 1281.

Messi's career so far is about 13 years. Officially, he has scored 527 goals. Per official goals alone, both players are at about 40 goals a year.

Mr Piffington, he is a 'god'....as far as soccer is concerned. I can understand someone arguing if he is the greatest ever...but the fact that he is even in that debate means he is a god.

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 10, 2018 10:34 pm 
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Enugu II wrote:
deanotito wrote:
I read things like this and wonder how on earth Nigeria can compete with these types. See education.

I couldn't help reading the part about the ball control drills they did with Pep and wonder if that wasn't what did Nacho in at City. Nacho really doesnt have that close control/kill a ball with a touch thing.


deanotito,

Bros, there are several Nigerian players that do what he describes and have that ability. The difference is that he understands the logic behind those movements i.e the Why. The others simply know how to but not the why. Even in Nigeria, some of what he describes is coached but I doubt that it is explained as he does in this interview.

I am not a coach but what he described is simply based on logic. I remember early in my child's football career, they will tell them never control the ball too close to your body. However, they were not told why. The reason is simply that having it close to your body will create inertia in your movement when in fact you need to move the ball with some momentum in many cases either away from a marker or to take advantage of space. Yet, it was not explained.

Thus, do not think that Nigerian players cannot do what is described. The only thing is that many of them, as well as other players elsewhere in the world, may not be able to explain why.

For me, the most important point that he made is that there is a need to explain to players why they should do a certain thing. That explanation may actually open them to taking initiative in thinking and visioning other things.


Good points. But I did not mean to imply that Nigerian players cannot play like Xavi or explain like Xavi. What I really mean is that in order for them to do that, they need to be taught. If you are not taught, you will be limited, plain and simple. You will essentially playing the luck of the draw. You cannot compare what the typical Nigerian player gets growing up with the schooling of the likes of Xavi in the Barcelona academy. As long as there is a differential in schooling, there would be a differential in output...on average. There would occasional prodigies that defy the logic, but on average, output will differ.

There were things I picked up myself playing street football that I have seen pro footballers fail to grasp. But that was simply just luck. My lack of proper training means that all I can compete on is, as Xavi calls it, physicality, and common sense. Real Ball sense was never taught to me or most Nigerian players.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 3:07 pm 
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deanotito wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
deanotito wrote:
I read things like this and wonder how on earth Nigeria can compete with these types. See education.

I couldn't help reading the part about the ball control drills they did with Pep and wonder if that wasn't what did Nacho in at City. Nacho really doesnt have that close control/kill a ball with a touch thing.


deanotito,

Bros, there are several Nigerian players that do what he describes and have that ability. The difference is that he understands the logic behind those movements i.e the Why. The others simply know how to but not the why. Even in Nigeria, some of what he describes is coached but I doubt that it is explained as he does in this interview. Instead, according to the narrative, Casemiro has other qualities.

I am not a coach but what he described is simply based on logic. I remember early in my child's football career, they will tell them never control the ball too close to your body. However, they were not told why. The reason is simply that having it close to your body will create inertia in your movement when in fact you need to move the ball with some momentum in many cases either away from a marker or to take advantage of space. Yet, it was not explained.

Thus, do not think that Nigerian players cannot do what is described. The only thing is that many of them, as well as other players elsewhere in the world, may not be able to explain why.

For me, the most important point that he made is that there is a need to explain to players why they should do a certain thing. That explanation may actually open them to taking initiative in thinking and visioning other things.


Good points. But I did not mean to imply that Nigerian players cannot play like Xavi or explain like Xavi. What I really mean is that in order for them to do that, they need to be taught. If you are not taught, you will be limited, plain and simple. You will essentially playing the luck of the draw. You cannot compare what the typical Nigerian player gets growing up with the schooling of the likes of Xavi in the Barcelona academy. As long as there is a differential in schooling, there would be a differential in output...on average. There would occasional prodigies that defy the logic, but on average, output will differ.

There were things I picked up myself playing street football that I have seen pro footballers fail to grasp. But that was simply just luck. My lack of proper training means that all I can compete on is, as Xavi calls it, physicality, and common sense. Real Ball sense was never taught to me or most Nigerian players.


deanotito,

To me it isn't that those things are not taught. What is missing is the explanation of why things happen. It is like teaching people how to communicate but not teaching them why a certain type of communication is effective. It is about the WHY. Note, that in that passage he insinuates that Brazil's Casemiro did not get the education but it did not make Casemiro less of a player. Instead, Casemiro has other qualities.

Ultimately, my sense is that a player may be quite good without knowing why certain things are done on the field. However, knowing WHY will expand the ability to take initiative to make certain linkages using logic that may not be now apparent to the player. In a sense, it is the difference between skill acquisition and critical analytic education.

For instance, he talks about time and space which is nothing new in football. We all know that there is limitation of space in terms of its tangible existence on the field. However, he explains how this limitation can be overcome with movement which encompasses the time variable. What is not often mentioned is that this movement is not just about the initiator of the movement but about the relationship between the initiator and the opponent. An example of this can be seen in our 1-3 loss Egypt at the 2010 AFCON in South Africa. If hope you remember this game, as it is instructive on this very concept. Explaining why the movement and its effect on space availability is what is often missing.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:14 pm 
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Enugu II, what you are describing is called Agile programming/management.
Look up SCRUM and Jeff on TED Videos.

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Don’t let the noise of others’ opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary.- Steve Jobs (RIP)


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:16 pm 
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Enugu II wrote:
deanotito wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
deanotito wrote:
I read things like this and wonder how on earth Nigeria can compete with these types. See education.

I couldn't help reading the part about the ball control drills they did with Pep and wonder if that wasn't what did Nacho in at City. Nacho really doesnt have that close control/kill a ball with a touch thing.


deanotito,

Bros, there are several Nigerian players that do what he describes and have that ability. The difference is that he understands the logic behind those movements i.e the Why. The others simply know how to but not the why. Even in Nigeria, some of what he describes is coached but I doubt that it is explained as he does in this interview. Instead, according to the narrative, Casemiro has other qualities.

I am not a coach but what he described is simply based on logic. I remember early in my child's football career, they will tell them never control the ball too close to your body. However, they were not told why. The reason is simply that having it close to your body will create inertia in your movement when in fact you need to move the ball with some momentum in many cases either away from a marker or to take advantage of space. Yet, it was not explained.

Thus, do not think that Nigerian players cannot do what is described. The only thing is that many of them, as well as other players elsewhere in the world, may not be able to explain why.

For me, the most important point that he made is that there is a need to explain to players why they should do a certain thing. That explanation may actually open them to taking initiative in thinking and visioning other things.


Good points. But I did not mean to imply that Nigerian players cannot play like Xavi or explain like Xavi. What I really mean is that in order for them to do that, they need to be taught. If you are not taught, you will be limited, plain and simple. You will essentially playing the luck of the draw. You cannot compare what the typical Nigerian player gets growing up with the schooling of the likes of Xavi in the Barcelona academy. As long as there is a differential in schooling, there would be a differential in output...on average. There would occasional prodigies that defy the logic, but on average, output will differ.

There were things I picked up myself playing street football that I have seen pro footballers fail to grasp. But that was simply just luck. My lack of proper training means that all I can compete on is, as Xavi calls it, physicality, and common sense. Real Ball sense was never taught to me or most Nigerian players.


deanotito,

To me it isn't that those things are not taught. What is missing is the explanation of why things happen. It is like teaching people how to communicate but not teaching them why a certain type of communication is effective. It is about the WHY. Note, that in that passage he insinuates that Brazil's Casemiro did not get the education but it did not make Casemiro less of a player. Instead, Casemiro has other qualities.

Ultimately, my sense is that a player may be quite good without knowing why certain things are done on the field. However, knowing WHY will expand the ability to take initiative to make certain linkages using logic that may not be now apparent to the player. In a sense, it is the difference between skill acquisition and critical analytic education.

For instance, he talks about time and space which is nothing new in football. We all know that there is limitation of space in terms of its tangible existence on the field. However, he explains how this limitation can be overcome with movement which encompasses the time variable. What is not often mentioned is that this movement is not just about the initiator of the movement but about the relationship between the initiator and the opponent. An example of this can be seen in our 1-3 loss Egypt at the 2010 AFCON in South Africa. If hope you remember this game, as it is instructive on this very concept. Explaining why the movement and its effect on space availability is what is often missing.


I agree with all your points. My take was just that whether its the HOW or the WHY, there is clearly a gap between our best players and the best players in Spain...at least on technical understanding. They were able to probably perform an an elite level in a physical sport without being physical. I mean, that Spanish team was one of the greatest national teams ever.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 11, 2018 9:47 pm 
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An intriguing comment by Xavi was his thoughts on players' physical preparation nowadays:
Quote:
"physically we're at a level that can't be improved. We train with a chip on our chests, we adjust distances, count kilometers, measure top speed... It's impossible to be better prepared physically."


The improvements in nutrition, rest and recovery, science, injury treatment etc means players today are far more fit, dynamic, fast, and athletic than they were 15-20 years ago. Watch an EPL game from the early 90s and it looks like the players are moving in slow motion (compared to today!). I recall the Secret Footballer mentioning in his column that players nowadays are "built like cruiser-weights". He mentioned being tackled and sent flying into the crowd by Antonio Valencia, and feeling like he had been knocked out.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:13 am 
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This interview was posted here about five years ago.

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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 12:19 am 
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Xavi's understanding of the game is extremely impressive. Our player development is still far behind the likes of Spain and Germany. Not surprised that our young players have found it difficult to break into top teams.


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:20 am 
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bamenda boy wrote:
This interview was posted here about five years ago.

Hmm i was thinking its recent interview?5 years ago was that Brazilian playing DMF even playing top flight footie?
Was pep at City 5 years ago?


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 1:33 am 
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kajifu wrote:
bamenda boy wrote:
This interview was posted here about five years ago.

Hmm i was thinking its recent interview?5 years ago was that Brazilian playing DMF even playing top flight footie?
Was pep at City 5 years ago?

Bamenda is smoking cheap $#%!

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Don’t let the noise of others’ opinions drown out your own inner voice. And most important, have the courage to follow your heart and intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become. Everything else is secondary.- Steve Jobs (RIP)


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 10:41 am 
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deanotito wrote:
Mr. Piffington wrote:
Ebyboy wrote:
deanotito wrote:
maceo4 wrote:
deanotito wrote:
I wonder what he'd think about Okocha. Jay Jay had his mischief making years, but I always felt that if he had had the right coach at the right time, he had the goods to be greater than he was. The talent was there, but were the tactics and the maturity ever right until Bolton? He had 3 different coaches in 4 years at PSG...one of them played him as false 9 for quite a while.


I immediately thought of JJ when he finished Isco here lol:

Quote:
A: I think these young players have to know what Luis Aragones used to ask me: "How do you like to play? Pretty football or good football?" And at first I didn't understand. "What does that mean." "You give me good football. Pretty football is good, yes, but for cheating four guys." I don't want to give any names, but in La Liga we've all been impressed with a lot of players that have disappeared without leaving any mark. Yes, you can dribble, but for what? What stylish things does Messi do? Nothing. He does the work. Messi is good football and at the same time it's so good that it becomes pretty.


You know the one place where I have a slightly different opinion is on Messi. I believe Messi's playmaking, and creativity are definitely elite....But we've seen that level before. What makes Messi truly unique is that he combines those abilities with exceptional (truly exceptional) goal scoring abilities. The world has never seen that complete package before. Pele probably is in the same mould, but I don't think scored as many goals....It is Messi's goal scoring that makes him truly unique, and the best player I've ever seen. Maradona was a playmaker. Ronaldo was a scorer. Messi is a better playmaker and a better scorer than either. That's unprecedented.


Pele scored in excess of 1,200 goals in his career.
Messi at this point in his career has less than 600.
Now past his peak, he can never hope to catch Pele
in this category.

Pele was more of a complete package than Messi. He
could play equally well with both feet and his head.
Messi is predominantly left footed and rarely scores
with his head. Pele is head and shoulders above
everybody else in terms of talent and physicality.
I was impressed by Xavi's depth of knowledge but his
claims for higher physicality in this era is not entirely
accurate. In Pele's days, referees didn't protect strikers.
Tackling from behind was not outlawed. Then, one
had to be a physical specimen in order to display
talent.

Pele dominated men twice his age at 17, scoring a
hattrick in the 1958 WC semifinals and a brace in
the final.

Compare Messi to the other guys like Maradona,
and Ronaldo. Pele is untouchable.


I like Messi but this drive to elevate him to a god is annoying.


So I just looked it up. Pele's career was about 18 years long. If we are counting official goals, per wikipedia, i.e. official games, Pele scored 727 goals. If we are counting all games, including unofficial etc, he scored 1281.

Messi's career so far is about 13 years. Officially, he has scored 527 goals. Per official goals alone, both players are at about 40 goals a year.

Mr Piffington, he is a 'god'....as far as soccer is concerned. I can understand someone arguing if he is the greatest ever...but the fact that he is even in that debate means he is a god.


Makes the point, doesn't it? One would have to limit Pele's
goalscoring to 'official games' in order to bring Messi anywhere
close to being in that conversation.

_________________
Image

For many years upon this spot
You heard the sound of a merry bell
Those who were rash and those who were not
Lost and made a spot of cash
He who gave the game away
May he Brynn in hell and rue the day

Bryne V. Deane [1937]


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PostPosted: Fri Jan 12, 2018 5:01 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 5:14 pm
Posts: 12326
Location: USA
Ebyboy wrote:
deanotito wrote:
Mr. Piffington wrote:
Ebyboy wrote:
deanotito wrote:
maceo4 wrote:
deanotito wrote:
I wonder what he'd think about Okocha. Jay Jay had his mischief making years, but I always felt that if he had had the right coach at the right time, he had the goods to be greater than he was. The talent was there, but were the tactics and the maturity ever right until Bolton? He had 3 different coaches in 4 years at PSG...one of them played him as false 9 for quite a while.


I immediately thought of JJ when he finished Isco here lol:

Quote:
A: I think these young players have to know what Luis Aragones used to ask me: "How do you like to play? Pretty football or good football?" And at first I didn't understand. "What does that mean." "You give me good football. Pretty football is good, yes, but for cheating four guys." I don't want to give any names, but in La Liga we've all been impressed with a lot of players that have disappeared without leaving any mark. Yes, you can dribble, but for what? What stylish things does Messi do? Nothing. He does the work. Messi is good football and at the same time it's so good that it becomes pretty.


You know the one place where I have a slightly different opinion is on Messi. I believe Messi's playmaking, and creativity are definitely elite....But we've seen that level before. What makes Messi truly unique is that he combines those abilities with exceptional (truly exceptional) goal scoring abilities. The world has never seen that complete package before. Pele probably is in the same mould, but I don't think scored as many goals....It is Messi's goal scoring that makes him truly unique, and the best player I've ever seen. Maradona was a playmaker. Ronaldo was a scorer. Messi is a better playmaker and a better scorer than either. That's unprecedented.


Pele scored in excess of 1,200 goals in his career.
Messi at this point in his career has less than 600.
Now past his peak, he can never hope to catch Pele
in this category.

Pele was more of a complete package than Messi. He
could play equally well with both feet and his head.
Messi is predominantly left footed and rarely scores
with his head. Pele is head and shoulders above
everybody else in terms of talent and physicality.
I was impressed by Xavi's depth of knowledge but his
claims for higher physicality in this era is not entirely
accurate. In Pele's days, referees didn't protect strikers.
Tackling from behind was not outlawed. Then, one
had to be a physical specimen in order to display
talent.

Pele dominated men twice his age at 17, scoring a
hattrick in the 1958 WC semifinals and a brace in
the final.

Compare Messi to the other guys like Maradona,
and Ronaldo. Pele is untouchable.


I like Messi but this drive to elevate him to a god is annoying.


So I just looked it up. Pele's career was about 18 years long. If we are counting official goals, per wikipedia, i.e. official games, Pele scored 727 goals. If we are counting all games, including unofficial etc, he scored 1281.

Messi's career so far is about 13 years. Officially, he has scored 527 goals. Per official goals alone, both players are at about 40 goals a year.

Mr Piffington, he is a 'god'....as far as soccer is concerned. I can understand someone arguing if he is the greatest ever...but the fact that he is even in that debate means he is a god.


Makes the point, doesn't it? One would have to limit Pele's
goalscoring to 'official games' in order to bring Messi anywhere
close to being in that conversation.


Actually, really doesn't. There were a lot more celebrity/boondoggle games for Pele in his career, and these served to boost his goal scoring record. Not criticizing Pele, but official goals are the only reasonable measure.

I'm old enough to remember the Maradona v Pele debates...and also old enough to have seen Maradona play. Messi's better than Maradona. So, comparing Messi to Pele, assuming Pele is the standard, is pretty appropriate. I would say, given the development of the game etc., my vote would go to Messi.

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