Oliseh Fired; Going Down With A Fight

[txj]

Txj,

Thank you for noting your error in imputing, wrongfully, the earlier claim that I had ruled on the credibility of his story. That is very important.

Now, on the issue of which my focus lies -- intentionality. There is no reason not to focus on intentionality or even on the issue of a pattern of behavior that many have also addressed. It is your choice to focus on issues of credibility but that does not mean that all of us should focus on credibility. It is a choice that you make, and others certainly should be free to decide on which issue that they should focus. There is no overlord that decides what people should focus or not focus on. The space and fora for discussion, I believe, is free and open.

Oliseh is a public figure and his utterances are of great importance. I will not focus on an alleged crime for which I have no evidence to prove whether a crime was committed or not. I will not speculate on that. However, I can definitely discuss intentionality because not only can I link to a positive motive for the act but the motives are multiple (if you can identify them, I hope). Further, I can also predict their effect through years of studying similar concepts. That much I am confident in doing.

While you didn't rule on credibility, you did in fact totally ignore it, to the sole focus on intentionality, which is an analysis of the mind of Oliseh in this case. Not only do you not have proof of his intent, but I'm unaware what qualification you have to render judgement on the state of mind of a person from a post on twitter!

It becomes even more curious when one weighs the import of the allegation of crime as compared to use of the word foreign...

[The YeyeMan]

Why is Oliseh going gaga on twitter? He should move on ...

Move on from what?

What if he has a point? Or are you saying he is incapable of having any point whatsoever?

And if so, what is the basis of ur position?

Sometimes if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck..... it's a duck!

I'm all for hearing Oliseh's side of things but let's not pretend he doesn't have form for clashing with authority.

Again, I'm all for hearing Oliseh's point of view but not on Twitter - he's not a teenager nor Donald Trump. There are times when one needs to keep their counsel. Illegal activities, huh? These allegations better be something special because football at that level is a corrupt game... one can either play along like 99.9% of people do or one could become a "whistleblower". Let's see how Sunday plays this...

[chief nfachairman]

No defending this dude. I was a 100% behind him to get the Eagles Job. But why has Oliseh always had issues with players, management and probably balls boys sef. Right from when he was a player.

IF several people keep saying the samething about you, then you need to check yourself. He certainly has a major personality problem.

LEts stop all these nonsense blind support for him on this thread. He has been suspended by his employers. Hes now gone on twitter and made some very serious allegations that would now definitely turn his suspension to sack and probably earn him a lawsuit.

Dude needs to Fvvcking grow up!!!

[The YeyeMan]

And just to add, I supported Oliseh when he walked away from the NFF.

Why is Oliseh going gaga on twitter? He should move on ...

Move on from what?

What if he has a point? Or are you saying he is incapable of having any point whatsoever?

And if so, what is the basis of ur position?

Sometimes if it quacks like a duck and walks like a duck..... it's a duck!

I'm all for hearing Oliseh's side of things but let's not pretend he doesn't have form for clashing with authority.

Again, I'm all for hearing Oliseh's point of view but not on Twitter - he's not a teenager nor Donald Trump. There are times when one needs to keep their counsel. Illegal activities, huh? These allegations better be something special because football at that level is a corrupt game... one can either play along like 99.9% of people do or one could become a "whistleblower". Let's see how Sunday plays this...

[maceo4]

I think we are rushing to judge here. Why not wait to hear the other side of this story?

I know how difficult things can get for Black coaches in clubs like these. Maybe Oliseh's conduct left a lot to be desired, but I cannot wholly trust the word of the club at this time. It is not fair to rush into conclusions on the basis of one side's version of events.

How about his antecedents? In as much as we all want hom not to fail. We also need to understand the records of all his major behaviors from playing time will always be a point of reference.

So you convict a man without evidence for said crime cos he has previous. My brother nor be so. We have to give the benefit of doubt and at least make sure we are aware of the facts before we judge.

Oliseh's previous (however you view them) does not automatically make him at fault for what has happened. We need to be fair and not condemn a man on such grounds.

This is not a court of law, this is an employer-employee relationship and the employer has severed ties with him and cited their reasons. Regardless of Olisehs 'side', he's been fired and they've cited behavior that sounds eerily similar to his time with the SE (both as player and coach). The club gave him a chance that few other African's get and praised him when things were going well so they should get the benefit of the doubt until there's concrete proof that they acted in an unethical or unlawful manner. But Oliseh spewing what he's spewing on twitter is not that concrete proof. And his handling of the firing this way only shows him to be impulsive and lacking foresight buttressing Sittards reasons for firing him.

My bro, this is not a court of law but there is a central tenet of natural justice that should be a guide for us all.

Why are you so quick to judge? Try to be objective and look at this fairly. How many professional football clubs have released such a damning statement about their Coach. By any standards this is unprecedented, things are not done like this. You want to be rid of your Coach, you do it secretly, settlement is reached and compensation paid. It is all hushed up, what you are seeing here is strange.

But you have not questioned the actions of the club, instead you have judged and condemned Oliseh. You even go as far as to say they did him a favour by giving him a job. My bro, there are no favours in football, they hired him after an interview process and he has performed.

I plead you try to be fair and not condemn a man with prejudice.

To me they had to put out a statement because the team has been doing way better than anybody could have expected. So to let the coach go at such a time you will have to answer some questions so they tried to get ahead of it, understandably. And we are all reacting to the facts at hand, there is no way to determine whether they are true or false, but why do you choose to doubt it? Of course if/when differing info comes to light then we’d have to revise our view of the situation. But for now this is what we have to go off of and I have no reason to question someone saying they heard a duck quacking...

[Enugu II]

Txj,

Thank you for noting your error in imputing, wrongfully, the earlier claim that I had ruled on the credibility of his story. That is very important.

Now, on the issue of which my focus lies -- intentionality. There is no reason not to focus on intentionality or even on the issue of a pattern of behavior that many have also addressed. It is your choice to focus on issues of credibility but that does not mean that all of us should focus on credibility. It is a choice that you make, and others certainly should be free to decide on which issue that they should focus. There is no overlord that decides what people should focus or not focus on. The space and fora for discussion, I believe, is free and open.

Oliseh is a public figure and his utterances are of great importance. I will not focus on an alleged crime for which I have no evidence to prove whether a crime was committed or not. I will not speculate on that. However, I can definitely discuss intentionality because not only can I link to a positive motive for the act but the motives are multiple (if you can identify them, I hope). Further, I can also predict their effect through years of studying similar concepts. That much I am confident in doing.

While you didn't rule on credibility, you did in fact totally ignore it, to the sole focus on intentionality, which is an analysis of the mind of Oliseh in this case. Not only do you not have proof of his intent, but I'm unaware what qualification you have to render judgement on the state of mind of a person from a post on twitter!

It becomes even more curious when one weighs the import of the allegation of crime as compared to use of the word foreign...

Txj,

As I noted, thanks for moving away from credibility which is of no interest to me. If you are interested in discussing that, then do so with those interested. Thanks.

On the issue of intentionality: That is my interest. I wish to note that intentionality is researched and widely discussed. It is hardly EVER based on proof in any research that I am aware of. The threshold for examining intentionality or its motive is based on its plausibility, supported by cited and reasonable circumstances. None of those amount to proof and neither is proof required.

If you wish to discuss those, then lets do so.

[Enugu II]

No defending this dude. I was a 100% behind him to get the Eagles Job. But why has Oliseh always had issues with players, management and probably balls boys sef. Right from when he was a player.

IF several people keep saying the samething about you, then you need to check yourself. He certainly has a major personality problem.

LEts stop all these nonsense blind support for him on this thread. He has been suspended by his employers. Hes now gone on twitter and made some very serious allegations that would now definitely turn his suspension to sack and probably earn him a lawsuit.

Dude needs to Fvvcking grow up!!!

Chief nfachairman,

Oliseh is a public figure and a coach and, thus, there is no reason why his issues with man management should not be discussed. It certainly should be. We, on this site, have discussed this matter as central in his resignation from the Nigerian NT. Besides there were several similar issues in previous discourse pertaining to Oliseh. There are others afterwards not just on Enyeama's matter but on William Troost-Ekong's claim. Denying those aspects is simply Ostritching at its best.

[Waffiman]

I think we are rushing to judge here. Why not wait to hear the other side of this story?

I know how difficult things can get for Black coaches in clubs like these. Maybe Oliseh's conduct left a lot to be desired, but I cannot wholly trust the word of the club at this time. It is not fair to rush into conclusions on the basis of one side's version of events.

How about his antecedents? In as much as we all want hom not to fail. We also need to understand the records of all his major behaviors from playing time will always be a point of reference.

So you convict a man without evidence for said crime cos he has previous. My brother nor be so. We have to give the benefit of doubt and at least make sure we are aware of the facts before we judge.

Oliseh's previous (however you view them) does not automatically make him at fault for what has happened. We need to be fair and not condemn a man on such grounds.

This is not a court of law, this is an employer-employee relationship and the employer has severed ties with him and cited their reasons. Regardless of Olisehs 'side', he's been fired and they've cited behavior that sounds eerily similar to his time with the SE (both as player and coach). The club gave him a chance that few other African's get and praised him when things were going well so they should get the benefit of the doubt until there's concrete proof that they acted in an unethical or unlawful manner. But Oliseh spewing what he's spewing on twitter is not that concrete proof. And his handling of the firing this way only shows him to be impulsive and lacking foresight buttressing Sittards reasons for firing him.

My bro, this is not a court of law but there is a central tenet of natural justice that should be a guide for us all.

Why are you so quick to judge? Try to be objective and look at this fairly. How many professional football clubs have released such a damning statement about their Coach. By any standards this is unprecedented, things are not done like this. You want to be rid of your Coach, you do it secretly, settlement is reached and compensation paid. It is all hushed up, what you are seeing here is strange.

But you have not questioned the actions of the club, instead you have judged and condemned Oliseh. You even go as far as to say they did him a favour by giving him a job. My bro, there are no favours in football, they hired him after an interview process and he has performed.

I plead you try to be fair and not condemn a man with prejudice.

To me they had to put out a statement because the team has been doing way better than anybody could have expected. So to let the coach go at such a time you will have to answer some questions so they tried to get ahead of it, understandably. And we are all reacting to the facts at hand, there is no way to determine whether they are true or false, but why do you choose to doubt it? Of course if/when differing info comes to light then we’d have to revise our view of the situation. But for now this is what we have to go off of and I have no reason to question someone saying they heard a duck quacking...

The club's response could be false to justify trying to be rid of a coach who is doing very well and liked by the fans. For me, their statement raises all sorts of questions because it is not done this way. This is ridiculous, clubs don't chastise a Coach so publicly, especially with such an issue. It does not convince me.

There are no facts at hand. The club has made allegations, Oliseh has responded with his own allegations. Oliseh by any fair means should not be judged and condemned on such basis as you and many others have.

The quack like a duck maxim is not relevant here because circumstances are unique and different.

[The YeyeMan]

The quack like a duck maxim is not relevant here because circumstances are unique and different.

Of course. But the maxim refers to the object's habitual characteristics - not to a particular set of circumstances.

[Waffiman]

The quack like a duck maxim is not relevant here because circumstances are unique and different.

Of course. But the maxim refers to the object's habitual characteristics - not to a particular set of circumstances.

Habitual characteristics! How much do you know of this man personality to form such a judgement of his character? What do you base your judgement on? You have neither experienced at first hand these characteristics you claim almost first hand knowledge of, nor have your sources or basis for this habits you claim credible. Are the NFA or NFF credible?

My dear friend, you are a fair and objective person most of the time. This time you are judging without facts or both sides giving their position. You are being unfair.

[zoro]

A coach has issues with his player or players and management suspends the coach. Wonders shall not end.

[okidoki]

Unless he’s going to get the likes of Adenuga, or Dangote to buy a club, he can manage. Dude has impeded his new career by these actions.
In most industries the top management, will never mess with an employee with such history of outbursts against the management. I know folks love him, but he’ll struggle to move on from this. Rather unfortunate.
When he got this gig, a friend who knows Pinnick socially, said anyone that can’t work with Pinnick will struggle to work with anyone else. That Pinnick is really very easy going, and unless you mess with the big picture he has, won’t mess with you.

[txj]

Txj,

Thank you for noting your error in imputing, wrongfully, the earlier claim that I had ruled on the credibility of his story. That is very important.

Now, on the issue of which my focus lies -- intentionality. There is no reason not to focus on intentionality or even on the issue of a pattern of behavior that many have also addressed. It is your choice to focus on issues of credibility but that does not mean that all of us should focus on credibility. It is a choice that you make, and others certainly should be free to decide on which issue that they should focus. There is no overlord that decides what people should focus or not focus on. The space and fora for discussion, I believe, is free and open.

Oliseh is a public figure and his utterances are of great importance. I will not focus on an alleged crime for which I have no evidence to prove whether a crime was committed or not. I will not speculate on that. However, I can definitely discuss intentionality because not only can I link to a positive motive for the act but the motives are multiple (if you can identify them, I hope). Further, I can also predict their effect through years of studying similar concepts. That much I am confident in doing.

While you didn't rule on credibility, you did in fact totally ignore it, to the sole focus on intentionality, which is an analysis of the mind of Oliseh in this case. Not only do you not have proof of his intent, but I'm unaware what qualification you have to render judgement on the state of mind of a person from a post on twitter!

It becomes even more curious when one weighs the import of the allegation of crime as compared to use of the word foreign...

Txj,

As I noted, thanks for moving away from credibility which is of no interest to me. If you are interested in discussing that, then do so with those interested. Thanks.

On the issue of intentionality: That is my interest. I wish to note that intentionality is researched and widely discussed. It is hardly EVER based on proof in any research that I am aware of. The threshold for examining intentionality or its motive is based on its plausibility, supported by cited and reasonable circumstances. None of those amount to proof and neither is proof required.

If you wish to discuss those, then lets do so.

It is not based on proof.

So it is based on plausibility.

It is plausible that the earth is indeed flat.

Dude, stop with this rubbish!!!

[Waffiman]

No defending this dude. I was a 100% behind him to get the Eagles Job. But why has Oliseh always had issues with players, management and probably balls boys sef. Right from when he was a player.

IF several people keep saying the samething about you, then you need to check yourself. He certainly has a major personality problem.

LEts stop all these nonsense blind support for him on this thread. He has been suspended by his employers. Hes now gone on twitter and made some very serious allegations that would now definitely turn his suspension to sack and probably earn him a lawsuit.

Dude needs to Fvvcking grow up!!!

Chief nfachairman,

Oliseh is a public figure and a coach and, thus, there is no reason why his issues with man management should not be discussed. It certainly should be. We, on this site, have discussed this matter as central in his resignation from the Nigerian NT. Besides there were several similar issues in previous discourse pertaining to Oliseh. There are others afterwards not just on Enyeama's matter but on William Troost-Ekong's claim. Denying those aspects is simply Ostritching at its best.

Does this give reason to judge and damn him without hearing or getting the facts of what has happened at Fortuna Sittard?

It does not. I am not surprised at the way Oliseh is damned by so many here. But there has to be fairness and by this I mean we need to hear out all sides before making judgement.

[txj]

The quack like a duck maxim is not relevant here because circumstances are unique and different.

Of course. But the maxim refers to the object's habitual characteristics - not to a particular set of circumstances.

Habitual characteristics! How much do you know of this man personality to form such a judgement of his character? What do you base your judgement on? You have neither experienced at first hand these characteristics you claim almost first hand knowledge of, nor have your sources or basis for this habits you claim credible. Are the NFA or NFF credible?

My dear friend, you are a fair and objective person most of the time. This time you are judging without facts or both sides giving their position. You are being unfair.

The truth is that many here do not like Oliseh, for whatever reason...

The arguments here are not based on any sort of rational thinking.

He says habitual characteristics. Earlier someone cited his fight with Andy Moeller; a man who abused him racially!

Or look at Enugu II's laughable theory on intent; based on a twitter post!!!

[Waffiman]

The quack like a duck maxim is not relevant here because circumstances are unique and different.

Of course. But the maxim refers to the object's habitual characteristics - not to a particular set of circumstances.

Habitual characteristics! How much do you know of this man personality to form such a judgement of his character? What do you base your judgement on? You have neither experienced at first hand these characteristics you claim almost first hand knowledge of, nor have your sources or basis for this habits you claim credible. Are the NFA or NFF credible?

My dear friend, you are a fair and objective person most of the time. This time you are judging without facts or both sides giving their position. You are being unfair.

The truth is that many here do not like Oliseh, for whatever reason...

The arguments here are not based on any sort of rational thinking.

He says habitual characteristics. Earlier someone cited his fight with Andy Moeller; a man who abused him racially!

Or look at Enugu II's laughable theory on intent; based on a twitter post!!!

The Andy Moeller one, I deliberately chose not to get involved in. Even after you gave the circumstances pertaining to that incident. They still continued defending their position. That takes the cake.

[The YeyeMan]

The quack like a duck maxim is not relevant here because circumstances are unique and different.

Of course. But the maxim refers to the object's habitual characteristics - not to a particular set of circumstances.

Habitual characteristics! How much do you know of this man personality to form such a judgement of his character? What do you base your judgement on? You have neither experienced at first hand these characteristics you claim almost first hand knowledge of, nor have your sources or basis for this habits you claim credible. Are the NFA or NFF credible?

My dear friend, you are a fair and objective person most of the time. This time you are judging without facts or both sides giving their position. You are being unfair.

I haven't reached a judgement. I've said I'm going to wait and see how this one pans out.... I'm not an Oliseh supporter or a basher, I just comment on what I see. And like I said, I supported him quitting the national team when he did.

The fact remains he habitually gets involved in situations where his man-management and his temperament and his judgement are called into question. And that's a circle you can't square - hence my duck test idiom.

Btw, you've created a straw men when you say I haven't experienced Oliseh's personality first hand. I don't need to.

Let's see where the chips falls. But as things stand, it doesn't look promising....

[jette1]

OLISEH SACKED ? No Way; under what rock have I been. I have been bracing for this knowing very well it was just a matter of when not if. I can even go further and posit that anyone who have ample opportunity and support to make it in Nigeria but instead abdicates that opportunity voluntarily would never make it overseas. it manifests very serious internalized personality fractures, limited insights and goal value inconsistencies that may or may not be so obvious to common eyes. From a medical point of view these are never simple issues of difficult everyday interaction challenges but rather of serious internal personality conflicts that can only be suppressed for so long before they blow up in your face. Oliseh's non-stop compulsions were appropriately channeled with his mouth closed.

[zee]

He needs help. This behavior has trailed him everywhere he went. From head-butting in Dortmund to fighing everybody as player and then Captain of SE to fighting everybody at the NFF, to this. It can't all be someone else's fault. He needs anger management or therapy or both.

Here you are, a Nigerian football fan, a black man...

But you are citing as evidence of Oliseh's failures, his reaction to being racially abused...

Some of you are unbelievable!

He attacked his own teammate.

That is at a minimum, assault. Could have impacted his future (ability to land a job) had the player pressed charges.

There are proper ways to go about dealing with issues.

We have plenty of our black people locked up because they can't check their emotions. That incident is not one he or anyone should be proud of.

You appear more concerned about the fate of Moeller than the racial assault on Oliseh?

Ever wonder why he Moeller did not press charges?

Ever wonder why he went on to play for Ajax even after the incident?

What the hell are you spurting? What has Moeller got to do with Oliseh's headbutt?
BTW, the headbutting happened at Bochum and Moeller NEVER played for Bochum.

[Kabalega]

No defending this dude. I was a 100% behind him to get the Eagles Job. But why has Oliseh always had issues with players, management and probably balls boys sef. Right from when he was a player.

IF several people keep saying the samething about you, then you need to check yourself. He certainly has a major personality problem.

LEts stop all these nonsense blind support for him on this thread. He has been suspended by his employers. Hes now gone on twitter and made some very serious allegations that would now definitely turn his suspension to sack and probably earn him a lawsuit.

Dude needs to Fvvcking grow up!!!

I will say it again.
Sunday Oliseh is a genius!
He is not a “follow follow “ kind of guy but a trailblazer of some kind.

Individuals with small minds don’t get him!

[jette1]

No defending this dude. I was a 100% behind him to get the Eagles Job. But why has Oliseh always had issues with players, management and probably balls boys sef. Right from when he was a player.

IF several people keep saying the samething about you, then you need to check yourself. He certainly has a major personality problem.

LEts stop all these nonsense blind support for him on this thread. He has been suspended by his employers. Hes now gone on twitter and made some very serious allegations that would now definitely turn his suspension to sack and probably earn him a lawsuit.

Dude needs to Fvvcking grow up!!!

I will say it again.
Sunday Oliseh is a genius!
He is not a “follow follow “ kind of guy but a trailblazer of some kind.

Individuals with small minds don’t get him!

how well you handle relationship challenges is the modern measure of emotional stability

[pajimoh]

Make Una blow grammar all Una want, Oliseh has issues with man management. The guy has issues with players in the SE and walked out on those who believed in him and on a country in expectation.
He was given an opportunity abroad. A platform to prove what happened to him at international level was the result of an African Footballing body and players unable to meet his professional standards.
A few months down the line, the Europeans are suspending him and for what reason? ....Deja vu....

The all too familiar"we can't work with him" citing players, staff and management - an impression of a terror in the corridors.....
Cue another classic repost - " they wanted me to do some illegality" that is probably euphemism for "white spiritual attacks"

[Kabalega]

No defending this dude. I was a 100% behind him to get the Eagles Job. But why has Oliseh always had issues with players, management and probably balls boys sef. Right from when he was a player.

IF several people keep saying the samething about you, then you need to check yourself. He certainly has a major personality problem.

LEts stop all these nonsense blind support for him on this thread. He has been suspended by his employers. Hes now gone on twitter and made some very serious allegations that would now definitely turn his suspension to sack and probably earn him a lawsuit.

Dude needs to Fvvcking grow up!!!

I will say it again.
Sunday Oliseh is a genius!
He is not a “follow follow “ kind of guy but a trailblazer of some kind.

Individuals with small minds don’t get him!

how well you handle relationship challenges is the modern measure of emotional stability

It’s not new that’s why you see many CE folks steeped in African cultures support your POV.
What you ignore is the fact that the modern measure of emotional stability is inaccurate, and subjective.

The context matters a lot. So does individual and collective bias.