How Guardiola is revolutionizing English football

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cic old boy
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Re: How Guardiola is revolutionizing English football

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Cristao II wrote: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

He had to relearn to play football the Barca way. I am sure he also had to relearn in his previous clubs!!
He also said that when he came to England, he had to go to gym and lift weights for 6 months to avoid being pushed around by defenders.

My point is that Barca/Pep's teams play a certain way and it takes time to adapt. So it's not inconceivable (as Oloye suggested) that City players couldn't adapt to Pep's tactics quick enough last season and the difference now is more time.
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Re: How Guardiola is revolutionizing English football

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Any coach can win big trophies if they have a blank check to buy the best players in the world.
I am not that impressed.

What Claudio Ranieri did with Leceister 2 years ago though,,....now that was truly revolutionary.

ESPN or anyone else can write countless articles about 2016 Leceister and how to duplicate their success, and no one will ever complain, because you wont need a multi-billionaire Sheikh with bottomless pockets, to duplicate their success.
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Re: How Guardiola is revolutionizing English football

Post by Chief Ogbunigwe »

airwolex wrote:Pep fans,

You can't force greatness down people's throats. The only way this can be done is if Pep wins the Champions League. Revolution, tiki taka, all that's a matter of taste. Worst you can say is that I don't know good football. I personally do not particularly care for that kind of football; i much prefer Liverpool and Real Madrid styles.
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Re: How Guardiola is revolutionizing English football

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charlie wrote:Any coach can win big trophies if they have a blank check to buy the best players in the world.
.
You probably didn’t think this through. You sound like a bitter Arsenal fan.
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Re: How Guardiola is revolutionizing English football

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Chief Ogbunigwe wrote:
airwolex wrote:Pep fans,

You can't force greatness down people's throats. The only way this can be done is if Pep wins the Champions League. Revolution, tiki taka, all that's a matter of taste. Worst you can say is that I don't know good football. I personally do not particularly care for that kind of football; i much prefer Liverpool and Real Madrid styles.
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Honestly I think I have always been pragmatic. I was a small pikin when Italy played Brazil in 82 and even then I preferred the Italian style to all that yeye beautiful nonsense that Brazilian squad played.
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Re: How Guardiola is revolutionizing English football

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Chief Ogbunigwe wrote:
charlie wrote:Any coach can win big trophies if they have a blank check to buy the best players in the world.
.
You probably didn’t think this through. You sound like a bitter Arsenal fan.
Ad hominem. If you have a counter point, make it.
If you dont, STFU.
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Re: How Guardiola is revolutionizing English football

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YUJAM wrote:But that's not what the article discusses. What it talks about is his tactical variations allow him to effectively use two 10s as 8s. That's not easy.

Waffiman wrote:Wenger played a midfield of Hleb, Cesc and Rocisky. They were kicked from pillar to post.

That article is a laugh. Load of rubbish. Pep invented football. Bollocks :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I love the football but it is so easy when you have unlimited funds.
The tactical variation is not new, it is why I made the point of mentioning Wenger's team of Cesc, Hleb, Rocisky and Eduardo, who many called the striker but was the number 10, playing with 3 other number 10s. How do you remember that team playing before they were hacked out of the league? Who were the 8s and 10s?

Before that I witnessed all sorts of tactical variation at Highbury. I even saw Wenger play the Brazilian style 4-2-4, in an attack that had Bergkamp and Kanu. Who were the 8s and 10s in those teams?

As I have read football books about tactics, I have come to appreciate greats like Viktor Maslov (The 1st Coach to use diet and fitness to condition his players in using the organised press) Valeriy Lobanovsky, Michels, Sachi (who change the defensive Italian game with his AC Milan and 4-4-2) etc etc. There is nothing Pep has done or doing that has not been tried before. We just need to go easy with all this praises like he invented football.

I am not knocking Pep, But we all saw what happened last season. I remember Gullit at pains pointing out that Pep's system is effectively Dutch and Cruyff 4-3-3 and/or 3-4-3. He added, the major problem with the system is you need top quality players to play it. Pointing out how Cruyff was a major failure when he left Barca. We saw Pep fall short without the players he needed.

It helps immensely when you have the funds he has and this must be acknowledged when we sing his praises.
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Re: How Guardiola is revolutionizing English football

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Waffiman wrote:
YUJAM wrote:But that's not what the article discusses. What it talks about is his tactical variations allow him to effectively use two 10s as 8s. That's not easy.

Waffiman wrote:Wenger played a midfield of Hleb, Cesc and Rocisky. They were kicked from pillar to post.

That article is a laugh. Load of rubbish. Pep invented football. Bollocks :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I love the football but it is so easy when you have unlimited funds.
The tactical variation is not new, it is why I made the point of mentioning Wenger's team of Cesc, Hleb, Rocisky and Eduardo, who many called the striker but was the number 10, playing with 3 other number 10s. How do you remember that team playing before they were hacked out of the league? Who were the 8s and 10s?

Before that I witnessed all sorts of tactical variation at Highbury. I even saw Wenger play the Brazilian style 4-2-4, in an attack that had Bergkamp and Kanu. Who were the 8s and 10s in those teams?

As I have read football books about tactics, I have come to appreciate greats like Viktor Maslov (The 1st Coach to use diet and fitness to condition his players in using the organised press) Valeriy Lobanovsky, Michels, Sachi (who change the defensive Italian game with his AC Milan and 4-4-2) etc etc. There is nothing Pep has done or doing that has not been tried before. We just need to go easy with all this praises like he invented football.

I am not knocking Pep, But we all saw what happened last season. I remember Gullit at pains pointing out that Pep's system is effectively Dutch and Cruyff 4-3-3 and/or 3-4-3. He added, the major problem with the system is you need top quality players to play it. Pointing out how Cruyff was a major failure when he left Barca. We saw Pep fall short without the players he needed.

It helps immensely when you have the funds he has and this must be acknowledged when we sing his praises.
Thank you very much, end of the story. :clap:

Metalalloy take notes :biggrin:
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Re: How Guardiola is revolutionizing English football

Post by smartbrother »

txj wrote:
And this from a man who years before now, had redefined the time space dynamics in the game.
:lol: :lol: wtf
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Re: How Guardiola is revolutionizing English football

Post by smartbrother »

YUJAM wrote:A lot of people are thinking with their hearts and not their heads.

All one has to do is see the way Pep's teams play to understand he is a special coach. Also his tactical variations show that he is an amazing football mind. There's nothing like him in world football.

And yes he's changing the English game. There is no doubt about this
Tactical variations? yeah right.
Guardiola plays one way and spends whatever is necessary to play that way
Remember how many times they completely collapsed last season ? at Leciester, at Everton ?
They are still prone to capitulation as the 3 goals conceded in 10 minutes v Liverpool showed
Guardiola clearly deserves his props for following his convictions and building such an entertaining & successful team (albeit after blowing ~half a billion pounds)
but an "amazing football mind" would have fixed the lingering problems in City's game by now
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Re: How Guardiola is revolutionizing English football

Post by airwolex »

smartbrother wrote:
txj wrote:
And this from a man who years before now, had redefined the time space dynamics in the game.
:lol: :lol: wtf
:rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:
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Re: How Guardiola is revolutionizing English football

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charlie wrote:
Chief Ogbunigwe wrote:
charlie wrote:Any coach can win big trophies if they have a blank check to buy the best players in the world.
.
You probably didn’t think this through. You sound like a bitter Arsenal fan.
Ad hominem. If you have a counter point, make it.
If you dont, STFU.

sharap dia, ewu Arsenal fan :taunt: :taunt: :taunt:
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Re: How Guardiola is revolutionizing English football

Post by Chief Ogbunigwe »

benteke wrote:
Waffiman wrote:
YUJAM wrote:But that's not what the article discusses. What it talks about is his tactical variations allow him to effectively use two 10s as 8s. That's not easy.

Waffiman wrote:Wenger played a midfield of Hleb, Cesc and Rocisky. They were kicked from pillar to post.

That article is a laugh. Load of rubbish. Pep invented football. Bollocks :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I love the football but it is so easy when you have unlimited funds.
The tactical variation is not new, it is why I made the point of mentioning Wenger's team of Cesc, Hleb, Rocisky and Eduardo, who many called the striker but was the number 10, playing with 3 other number 10s. How do you remember that team playing before they were hacked out of the league? Who were the 8s and 10s?

Before that I witnessed all sorts of tactical variation at Highbury. I even saw Wenger play the Brazilian style 4-2-4, in an attack that had Bergkamp and Kanu. Who were the 8s and 10s in those teams?

As I have read football books about tactics, I have come to appreciate greats like Viktor Maslov (The 1st Coach to use diet and fitness to condition his players in using the organised press) Valeriy Lobanovsky, Michels, Sachi (who change the defensive Italian game with his AC Milan and 4-4-2) etc etc. There is nothing Pep has done or doing that has not been tried before. We just need to go easy with all this praises like he invented football.

I am not knocking Pep, But we all saw what happened last season. I remember Gullit at pains pointing out that Pep's system is effectively Dutch and Cruyff 4-3-3 and/or 3-4-3. He added, the major problem with the system is you need top quality players to play it. Pointing out how Cruyff was a major failure when he left Barca. We saw Pep fall short without the players he needed.

It helps immensely when you have the funds he has and this must be acknowledged when we sing his praises.
Thank you very much, end of the story. :clap:

Metalalloy take notes :biggrin:
keep clapping for Waffiman...before you know it, he will turn you into a Wenger Fan
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Re: How Guardiola is revolutionizing English football

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Chief Ogbunigwe wrote:
benteke wrote:
Waffiman wrote:
YUJAM wrote:But that's not what the article discusses. What it talks about is his tactical variations allow him to effectively use two 10s as 8s. That's not easy.

Waffiman wrote:Wenger played a midfield of Hleb, Cesc and Rocisky. They were kicked from pillar to post.

That article is a laugh. Load of rubbish. Pep invented football. Bollocks :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

I love the football but it is so easy when you have unlimited funds.
The tactical variation is not new, it is why I made the point of mentioning Wenger's team of Cesc, Hleb, Rocisky and Eduardo, who many called the striker but was the number 10, playing with 3 other number 10s. How do you remember that team playing before they were hacked out of the league? Who were the 8s and 10s?

Before that I witnessed all sorts of tactical variation at Highbury. I even saw Wenger play the Brazilian style 4-2-4, in an attack that had Bergkamp and Kanu. Who were the 8s and 10s in those teams?

As I have read football books about tactics, I have come to appreciate greats like Viktor Maslov (The 1st Coach to use diet and fitness to condition his players in using the organised press) Valeriy Lobanovsky, Michels, Sachi (who change the defensive Italian game with his AC Milan and 4-4-2) etc etc. There is nothing Pep has done or doing that has not been tried before. We just need to go easy with all this praises like he invented football.

I am not knocking Pep, But we all saw what happened last season. I remember Gullit at pains pointing out that Pep's system is effectively Dutch and Cruyff 4-3-3 and/or 3-4-3. He added, the major problem with the system is you need top quality players to play it. Pointing out how Cruyff was a major failure when he left Barca. We saw Pep fall short without the players he needed.

It helps immensely when you have the funds he has and this must be acknowledged when we sing his praises.
Thank you very much, end of the story. :clap:

Metalalloy take notes :biggrin:
keep clapping for Waffiman...before you know it, he will turn you into a Wenger Fan
:rotf:
You see i asked a good question on this no.10s in central midfield question and i knew one of the Arsenal lads would come through and i am glad Waffiman has explained the nitty gritty.
One of my favorite threads on CE is the Arsenal thread where i go there after every Arsenal game to read things i can never read anywhere else :biggrin: , there are wonderful tactical discussions going on there.
By the way i have always admired Wenger and i think he has done wonders for Arsenal and you will miss him, i know things are not going well i wish he succeeds just one last time

Anyway back to the topic, i hope someone else comes through with a good write up on great tactical variations we have witnessed in EPL long before Pep arrived, i know Fergie used to come up with lots of interesting stuff just that i cannot explain the finer details. There are a lot of knowledgeable people on this forum :thumb:
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Re: How Guardiola is revolutionizing English football

Post by kajifu »

platinum wrote:
Chief Ogbunigwe wrote:
benteke wrote:
kajifu wrote:Rubbish articls,Pep copy what Wenger has done for years repeatedly.
Go watch Arsenal 98 double win team.I don't want to even talk about 2003 to 2004 when beloved go all season without open nyash. Lauren a MF turn to one of the best TH.
Henry was a winger and Wenger turn him to the best striker epl ever see.
FAbregas was a playmaker that Wenger turn himyo one of the best CM ENGLAND EVER SEE AT A YOUTH AGE..
This pep team is not even excited like Pelle team in his first year.
Thanks Kajifu and Waffiman :clap: , you are systematically burying this thread once as for all :rotf:

Nonsense. According to them, Wenger invented Arsenal, EPL titles, FA cups, doubles, art of converting a speedy winger into a striker, consistent top 4, etc. He invented Lauren, Fabregas, etc.
No mind them! Plus Weah calls Arsene Wenger 'father'. Does Pep have that?
Even Mourinho, his age mate Essien calls him 'daddy'. When Pep get those kain pikin, e fit open mouth.
Oga Plat and Chief I don't like they way both of you are posting in this matter.Wenger was special before we move to emirate and he was the man who revolutionized English football.
Has Pep gone unbeaten in his life?Even his Barca team was beaten in NDL.
Wenger is finish today but he change English football
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Re: How Guardiola is revolutionizing English football

Post by Chief Ogbunigwe »

kajifu wrote:
platinum wrote:
Chief Ogbunigwe wrote:
benteke wrote:
kajifu wrote:Rubbish articls,Pep copy what Wenger has done for years repeatedly.
Go watch Arsenal 98 double win team.I don't want to even talk about 2003 to 2004 when beloved go all season without open nyash. Lauren a MF turn to one of the best TH.
Henry was a winger and Wenger turn him to the best striker epl ever see.
FAbregas was a playmaker that Wenger turn himyo one of the best CM ENGLAND EVER SEE AT A YOUTH AGE..
This pep team is not even excited like Pelle team in his first year.
Thanks Kajifu and Waffiman :clap: , you are systematically burying this thread once as for all :rotf:

Nonsense. According to them, Wenger invented Arsenal, EPL titles, FA cups, doubles, art of converting a speedy winger into a striker, consistent top 4, etc. He invented Lauren, Fabregas, etc.
No mind them! Plus Weah calls Arsene Wenger 'father'. Does Pep have that?
Even Mourinho, his age mate Essien calls him 'daddy'. When Pep get those kain pikin, e fit open mouth.
Oga Plat and Chief I don't like they way both of you are posting in this matter.Wenger was special before we move to emirate and he was the man who revolutionized English football.
Has Pep gone unbeaten in his life?Even his Barca team was beaten in NDL.
Wenger is finish today but he change English football

Kaji:
your cousin is feeding you too many stories... you guys should stop thinking any credit to Pep takes away from Wenger. Once you get out of that mindset, easy to see the point of the OP.
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Re: How Guardiola is revolutionizing English football

Post by kajifu »

Chief Ogbunigwe wrote:
kajifu wrote:
platinum wrote:
Chief Ogbunigwe wrote:
benteke wrote:
kajifu wrote:Rubbish articls,Pep copy what Wenger has done for years repeatedly.
Go watch Arsenal 98 double win team.I don't want to even talk about 2003 to 2004 when beloved go all season without open nyash. Lauren a MF turn to one of the best TH.
Henry was a winger and Wenger turn him to the best striker epl ever see.
FAbregas was a playmaker that Wenger turn himyo one of the best CM ENGLAND EVER SEE AT A YOUTH AGE..
This pep team is not even excited like Pelle team in his first year.
Thanks Kajifu and Waffiman :clap: , you are systematically burying this thread once as for all :rotf:

Nonsense. According to them, Wenger invented Arsenal, EPL titles, FA cups, doubles, art of converting a speedy winger into a striker, consistent top 4, etc. He invented Lauren, Fabregas, etc.
No mind them! Plus Weah calls Arsene Wenger 'father'. Does Pep have that?
Even Mourinho, his age mate Essien calls him 'daddy'. When Pep get those kain pikin, e fit open mouth.
Oga Plat and Chief I don't like they way both of you are posting in this matter.Wenger was special before we move to emirate and he was the man who revolutionized English football.
Has Pep gone unbeaten in his life?Even his Barca team was beaten in NDL.
Wenger is finish today but he change English football

Kaji:
your cousin is feeding you too many stories... you guys should stop thinking any credit to Pep takes away from Wenger. Once you get out of that mindset, easy to see the point of the OP.
My point is Pep did not revolutionizing anything English football.Chief abeg can you explain any point that he did what no other coach has done in English football?
Believe me I will dance naked if Pep take over Arsenal as he is a better manager than Wenger today.
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Re: How Guardiola is revolutionizing English football

Post by balo »

kajifu wrote:
Chief Ogbunigwe wrote:
kajifu wrote:
platinum wrote:
Chief Ogbunigwe wrote:
benteke wrote:
kajifu wrote:Rubbish articls,Pep copy what Wenger has done for years repeatedly.
Go watch Arsenal 98 double win team.I don't want to even talk about 2003 to 2004 when beloved go all season without open nyash. Lauren a MF turn to one of the best TH.
Henry was a winger and Wenger turn him to the best striker epl ever see.
FAbregas was a playmaker that Wenger turn himyo one of the best CM ENGLAND EVER SEE AT A YOUTH AGE..
This pep team is not even excited like Pelle team in his first year.
Thanks Kajifu and Waffiman :clap: , you are systematically burying this thread once as for all :rotf:

Nonsense. According to them, Wenger invented Arsenal, EPL titles, FA cups, doubles, art of converting a speedy winger into a striker, consistent top 4, etc. He invented Lauren, Fabregas, etc.
No mind them! Plus Weah calls Arsene Wenger 'father'. Does Pep have that?
Even Mourinho, his age mate Essien calls him 'daddy'. When Pep get those kain pikin, e fit open mouth.
Oga Plat and Chief I don't like they way both of you are posting in this matter.Wenger was special before we move to emirate and he was the man who revolutionized English football.
Has Pep gone unbeaten in his life?Even his Barca team was beaten in NDL.
Wenger is finish today but he change English football

Kaji:
your cousin is feeding you too many stories... you guys should stop thinking any credit to Pep takes away from Wenger. Once you get out of that mindset, easy to see the point of the OP.
My point is Pep did not revolutionizing anything English football.Chief abeg can you explain any point that he did what no other coach has done in English football?
Believe me I will dance naked if Pep take over Arsenal as he is a better manager than Wenger today.

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Re: How Guardiola is revolutionizing English football

Post by kajifu »

@Benteke let me explain you something....Man City today is copying Arsenal invincible ,the used of players and change of position is something Wenger did that season.


Arsenal 2003/04 unbeaten title-winning team have been voted as the Best Team in the Premier League’s 20 seasons awards. It is the first team to win the Premier League title having not lost a game. The last team to achieve it was over a hundred years ago. It was a big achievement that earned the nickname “The Invincibles”. Therefore, it is worthy to analyse this team to see what we can learn. How did they play? What were the characteristics of the players? It may not have the best players in every position but the chemistry they formed was the best at that time.

Arsene Wenger used 22 players in the whole season. However, Justin Hoyte and David Bentley had only made 1 appearance, comparing with the rest of the team making at least 9 appearances (more than 20% of the 38 games). Therefore, it is reasonable to exclude these two players and focus on how Wenger used those 20 players in the whole season.
Defense were Cole, Lauren, Campbell and Toure were the first team players of the back four. Keown had more substitute appearances (7) than starting appearances (3); especially four of them were in the last four games after Arsenal had won the title on 25/4/2004. Therefore, Cygan was the first choice back up in the centre back position. On the other hand, Clichy was the back up of Cole in left back position. Who was the back up of Lauren in right back position? Wenger used a different approach. Instead of putting a right back player as the backup of Lauren, Wenger used the versatile Toure wisely. The following diagram shows Wenger’s approach about the backup of right back. When Lauren was not available, Wenger moved Toure to the right back and let Cygan played as centre back.This is similar to City backline with likes of stone,Kompany,The Argentina,Walker, and the guy from real plus Delph what ever they call him that was move to LB.

In MF more rotation was happened in midfielders. However, it still shows that Vieira, Pires, Ljungberg and Silva were the first team midfielders,note only Vierira and silva were traditional MF like Fernandino of city Pires,Ljumgberg,were more attacking player like KDB. Edu shouldn’t be ignored because he was Wenger’s first choice substitute in midfield, having 16 substitute appearances. In fact, if total appearances were considered, Edu had 29 (13+16) which is the same as Vieira.
Arsene change Pires from a playmaker to Mf a nd move our genius playmaker to support striker partner Henry.

Only 6 midfielders were mainly used in the whole season showed the versatility of these players, especially the two backup players Parlour and Edu who played as both central and wide midfielders. Moreover, Pires and Ljungberg were able to play at both flanks. The combination of these 6 players gave the flexibility and consistency of a solid Arsenal midfield.

When Ljungberg was not available, Parlour was the first choice of Wenger to replace the right winger role:
When these two players were not available, Pires played as a right winger as Edu played as a left winger:
It happened 4 times during the season. However, Wenger used a different approach in the late second half of the season, keeping Pires as left winger and put Wiltord or Reyes as the right winger.

When Pires was not available, Wenger moved Ljungberg to the left and played Parlour as the right winger:


If both Pires and Ljungberg were not available, Edu could play as a left winger also.

The rotation in central midfield was simple. Parlour and Edu were the backup of Vieira and Silva. However, the interesting point is that even Edu was the first choice substitute in Wenger’s mind; Parlour was the primary backup central midfielder when either Vieira or Silva was unavailable. There were 18 games when one of them was unavailable, Parlour started 11 of them and Edu started only 7 of them.

The appearances and rotation in midfield could be linked to the analysis of formation. In 4-4-2, the central midfielder substitutes were still able to cover the wide position as wide midfielder or winger (e.g. Parlour in right flank, Edu in left flank). It is because the two strikers playing upfront are the main goal scoring power. The substitutes could act as a supporting role in wide position even though they are not good at attacking. Comparing with the 4-3-3, 4-5-1 or 4-2-3-1 nowadays, it is rarely to see a central midfielder to take over the winger position because the winger position in these formations requires more attacking attributes due to the lone striker system.
Henry was definitely a first team member starting all 38 league games. Therefore, what Wenger had to decide is using whom as Henry’s partner. Wiltord got more chances firstly. In the first 10 games, he started 5 times and played 3 times as substitute. However, he was not in Wenger’s first team plan since then. Bergkamp, having 21 starting appearance, was the partner of Henry in most of the season. However, may be because of Bergkamp’s age, he didn’t play many games continuously. Wenger used Kanu, Aliadiere and Wiltord as the backup. The situation changed after January’s transfer window. Reyes joined the team and got the chances immediately. The total number of games Reyes played in half season (13) was more than Wiltord (11), Kanu (10) and Aliadiere (9) playing in the whole season. Note that in some exceptional cases, Wenger used Reyes and Wiltord as left and right wingers

Please go to you tube and watch Arsenal 49 unbeaten run and see how Wenger change the game in England complete,teams knows no matter what Arsenal will score,you know they will beat you and you cant score against them easily.John Terry once said every time he has to face Henry he could not sleep and pray the result is not that bad,that playing Arsenal players get shake shake and make silly mistake before Arsenal even get to the game.Ask JC of Liverpool who said playing defense against this invincible is one of the worst thing to do to a defender.We play one of the best possession footie and counter attacking football.We were loaded in all areas and wenger using Toure as a RB was no joke.
Pep a student of Cruff and Wenger style.If Wenger would have step down after invincible,he will be regarded the greatest manager in English football but greed did not let him.today we want him out because he is getting worst and people forget what he did to English football.
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Re: How Guardiola is revolutionizing English football

Post by kajifu »

@Benteke let me explain you things if Pep do they will say he revolutionzing English Football that Sir Ale did as a manager who change Manchester united to one of world greatest global club today.


Sir Alex Ferguson's sides were always distinctly 'Scottish' in temperament - regardless of the personnel, regardless of the club and regardless of the context of the games being played.

His teams always played to win, to pass the ball, to impose their football, to play a Scottish and Dutch attacking style. His teams were aggressive, dominant and resilient, never giving up, regardless of the game situation. This was a brand of football that was local and global in tone that today we see Pep display it with man city .
Though the philosophy remained the same, Sir Alex's teams were tactically very versatile in terms of shape. Sir Alex Ferguson has used a variety of formations – 4-3-3, 4-4-2, 4-5-1, 4-2-3-1, 4-4-1-1 – and even a 4-6-0 against Greenock Morton at Cappielow while manager of Aberdeen around 1985. That probably 27 years or so ahead of that formation gaining prominence with Spain in 2012 and over a decade ahead of Romania's use of the same formation in 1994. Luciano Spalletti used the 4-6-0 in 2006 with Roma before Ferguson again revisited the formation in 2007-8, winning the Premiership and Champions League.
Sir Alex Ferguson’s greatest contribution has been his creating the roadmap for every modern era boss – he is a manager from a different era who successfully reinvented himself again and again over a period of 40 years or so. Not just in England, but also in Scotland.

His achievements in Scotland with Aberdeen (who smashed the stranglehold of Rangers and Celtic and also became a force in Europe (beating Real Madrid in Gothenburg to win the Cup Winners Cup) stands comparison with his success at Man Utd. Equally, his work at St Mirren created the backdrop for success there
Tactically SAF was far more adroit than appreciated – a master team builder who adapted his systems to the players at his disposal and also the players available in the transfer market (he was a master long-term planner).
Sir Alex’s achievements are of a higher rank. Firstly because his trophies were harder to win and secondly because of his over all contribution to the game during the last 40 years. As good as Wenger is, he is a manager who has not kept pace with the times and reinvented himself, to recreate his ideas and his teams anew. I think that versatilty, stamina and flexibility is what makes SAF’s contribution so telling.Ref and Fa were scared of him and he get away also with some ojoro :roll:
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Re: How Guardiola is revolutionizing English football

Post by Waffiman »

Let me make this clear. No one appreciates creative attacking football better than me cos I know it is the most difficult thing to deliver in football.

But there nothing Pep has done that is new or not tried before. It is like most things in the modern game. It has been tried before.

Pep is great, and has achieved a lot in the game, but we need to take it easy with all this talk of revolutionising the game.

Here is one of the true greats.

The great Viktor Maslov. The father of modern football

Image

Here is Jonathan Wilson via Wikki.
He is often seen as being one of the most innovative and influential football managers of all-time. He was the first to experiment with players' nutrition, and invented the 4-4-2 formation, along with the notion of pressing, which, in the words of Jonathan Wilson "may be seen as the birth of modern football". Wilson credits Maslov as one of the progenitors of the pressing game. This was a key development, as before Maslov, teams tended to allow their opponents more time on the ball, whereas Maslov's strategy of pressing denied players this time and space, and led to the game based more on speed and fitness that is common across the top European and South American leagues today.
Here is Hardtackle.

http://www.thehardtackle.com/2013/vikto ... -football/

VIKTOR MASLOV — ONE OF THE GREATEST TACTICAL MINDS TO EVER GRACE FOOTBALL

Enigmatic, pragmatic, misunderstood — Viktor Maslov was one of the greatest tactical minds to ever grace football, but his achievements and contributions remain largely under-appreciated.

When one talks about the great tactical minds to have rendered the game its present state, the names of Arigo Sacchi, Helenio Herrera, Valeriy Lobanovski, Rinus Michels and Pep Guardiola spring to mind more than anything else. These esteemed coaches have not only brought about their own spectrum of the game but have also ushered an era of unparalleled success for their clubs, making them one of the truly great managers of the game. But underneath the influence of these giants is a person whose contribution to the game is probably lost in the sands of time and fame of the ones that followed him. Viktor Maslov, through his genius laid the foundation of modern day football and remains a truly understated colossus in the realms of the game.

The Journey

Born in 1910 in then Soviet Russia, Maslov’s early childhood was surrounded by the gloom of war and revolutions tearing up apart the country and the continent. With the culmination of the Great War and the Soviet Civil War, football in the country returned to its former state and the opportunity to play for RDPK Moscow presented a stepping stone for Maslov’s career. A couple of years later, the young midfielder crossed the divide as RDPK’s city rivals, Torpedo came calling. The move did not go down well with the club and its fan-base for reasons well known, but Maslov’s ascend to fame had just begun. He made his name as an unspectacular yet efficient midfielder with an eye for a pass. In his time as a player, he captained the side between 1936 and 1939 before finally hanging up his boots in 1942, at the age of 32.

But the best was yet to come.

Maslov’s longstanding desire to be the commander at the touchline finally came into fruition as he took over the reigns at Torpedo shortly after his retirement. There was little in the way of success and after a disappointing six year stint, he was relieved of his duties and what followed was a largely unsettled period wherein Maslov swapped three clubs in six seasons. His failures prompted him to take time off and in 1957, Torpedo came calling again. A revitalized Maslov led a strong Torpedo to a league win in his four year stint, making his name as a tactically astute manager in the process. His exploits with Torpedo did not go unnoticed as the giants of Eastern Europe – Dynamo Kiev made their move and the visible joys of managing an European name over Rostov were to big a bait for the ‘Grandpa’ to let go. The Russian’s genius truly came to the fore in his time at Ukraine as the Russian pioneered new facets of the game – both on the pitch and off it.

Managerial Innovations

Brazil’s world cup clinching team of 1958 were set out in the then widely famous 4-2-4. Though there would be no dearth of attacking impetus as a result of the two wing forwards and the two center forwards, the visible flaw of the formation was the gaping holes left down the wings between the half-backs and the wing-forwards.

To counter this flaw, Maslov proposed tinkering the formation by instructing one of his wing forwards to drop deep into central midfield when not in possession of the ball to render balance to the team. In implementing his system at Kiev, the Russian went one step ahead and instructed both of his wing-forwards to drop deep, making a flat bank of four in midfield and thus narrowing down the open spaces on the wings. Thus came about the 4-4-2, the blueprint of English football. Maslov’s modified system found the right balance between defense and attack and transitional play became easier considering the number of bodies in midfield. Football was moving from reliance on individual brilliance to efficient use of all resources available. His Dynamo side dominated football in the Soviet Union for a major part of the 60’s as they won consecutive league titles between 1966 and 1968 alongside a couple of domestic cups.

Off the field, Maslov put particular emphasis on his players’ nutrition and dietary routines to ensure that his team remained fit enough to challenge for top honours on a regular basis. As the conditioning and strength of his players increased, the Russian introduced the system of pressing with the primary motive of not allowing his opposition any space and time on the ball, as was the trend back then. Jonathan Wilson writes:
“Their (Dynamo’s) midfield was hunting in packs, closing down opponents and seizing the initiative in previously unexpected areas of the pitch.
The Dynamo of the 60’s were among the first sides in football to integrate team-work in building in a perfectly cohesive unit that hunted in packs and not on the brilliance of an individual. The team pressed and defended zonally to negate the threat posed by the roaming center forward of those times ala Nandor Hidegkuti. Maslov famously proclaimed the vices of a man-marking system –
“Man-marking humiliates, insults and even morally oppresses the players who resort to it.”
Another significant tactical change brought in by the Russian was the attacking responsibilities given to the side-backs who then were pretty much restricted to only their defensive duties. Maslov brought about the role of the attacking full-back at Dynamo, rendering the full-back in its modern role of having dual responsibility.

Viktor Maslov’s Legacy

The 4-4-2, pioneered by Viktor Maslov was put to practice by Sir Alf Ramsey as the English lifted the World Cup in 1966 due to which many regard him to be the real pioneer of the formation. Maslov’s tactic of pressing the opposition was later adopted by Rinus Michels as he built his all conquering Ajax of the 70’s and by Arigo Sacchi who used it to perfection in making his Milan the undisputed champions of the continent. His tremendous work in the domestic scene of the Soviet Union reflected in the way the national team set-up. USSR implemented the zonal marking and pressing systems in their defensive play and are believed to be among the first ones to do so. Football aesthetics may point a finger at Maslov for stemming the attacking rendezvous of the late 50’s and early 60’s by the introduction of pressing the opposition but there remains little doubt that the Russian’s theories having survived the test of time, remain one of the cornerstones of modern tactical thinking.

After his record-setting stint at Kiev, Maslov returned to Torpedo Moscow for a brief spell but the wears and tears of old age coupled with six energy sapping seasons at Dynamo had taken their toll on the grandpa. After a couple of unsuccessful years, Maslov sang his swansong at FC Aarat Yerevan before passing away in 1977, aged 67. A few years later his disciple, Valeriy Lobanovski would continue the tradition of success at Kiev, inspired largely from the theories of his master, established during the 60’s.

To date, the Russian remains one of the pioneers of the game and his under-stated influence one of the truly precious gems of the game. Reserved yet enigmatic, subdued yet pragmatic, Maslov remains one of the lost names in the perennial river of footballing legends.
Arsène Wenger at Arsenal, 1996 to 2018. I was there.
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Re: How Guardiola is revolutionizing English football

Post by txj »

@ Waffi,
Maslov is one of the true greats in football. Interestingly, Pep in some of his earlier interviews, references his work.

Innovation in football does not occur in a vacuum; it builds on what was preceding...

Prior to his arrival in England, the EPL was always presented as Pep waterloo, where those fancy tiki-taka ideas will turn turkey. It is true, his work with City cannot be viewed in isolation from those who came before him, beginning with Wenger. But he has taken what was, to new heights, and not just in his tactical formulations but the ability to use playing systems in a manner that enhances player freshness. Its been stunning how little he has rotated the squad given the games/competitions. Yes, he has rotated, but not at the level one would have thought...

Its a huge mistake to reduce this to finances. True they have spent a lot of money, but he could've used those same players playing counterattacking football, like Jose was doing with Ronaldo and co in Madrid, even against Levante!

But I still think he got lucky this season that LFC screwed up its transfer dealings in the summer....but that's just me :winking:
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
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Re: How Guardiola is revolutionizing English football

Post by kajifu »

wow I have not even heard of him that VIKTOR MASLOV — ONE OF THE GREATEST TACTICAL MINDS TO EVER GRACE FOOTBALL
Make I read small about t he bobo.Thanks for posting,wow

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