'Zero Shots On Target' Is a Serious Discussion Point

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Re: 'Zero Shots On Target' Is a Serious Discussion Point

Post by waka-man »

My sweetest part of this match was right at the end of the first half when they had that series of corners. To see Ighalo and Uzoho - an attacker and a kid - organising the defence and relishing the challenge. E sweet me no be small
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Re: 'Zero Shots On Target' Is a Serious Discussion Point

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Enugu II wrote:Sure, this is an issue but I do not think it is that big of an issue. I would be concerned big time if there were no opportunities to shoot at goal. In tight encounters like this, opportunities are not going to be that plentiful. Note that we did have multiple shots at goal which indicates that there were indeed opportunities to score besides the penalty kick. By my count, we did have at least six shots and I may have under counted. Vic Moses had two shots, and Ekong, Joel, Kelechi, and Ighalo had one each. We were quite close on two of those -- Vic Mo's free kick and Ighalo's header. The fact that they were not on goal is an issue that bothered on accurate shooting but you have to note that rarely do teams even convert any thing close to 30% of their shots at goal.
Youe ven forgot the Musa last minute chance.
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Re: 'Zero Shots On Target' Is a Serious Discussion Point

Post by Enugu II »

danfo driver wrote:
Enugu II wrote:Sure, this is an issue but I do not think it is that big of an issue. I would be concerned big time if there were no opportunities to shoot at goal. In tight encounters like this, opportunities are not going to be that plentiful. Note that we did have multiple shots at goal which indicates that there were indeed opportunities to score besides the penalty kick. By my count, we did have at least six shots and I may have under counted. Vic Moses had two shots, and Ekong, Joel, Kelechi, and Ighalo had one each. We were quite close on two of those -- Vic Mo's free kick and Ighalo's header. The fact that they were not on goal is an issue that bothered on accurate shooting but you have to note that rarely do teams even convert any thing close to 30% of their shots at goal.
Youe ven forgot the Musa last minute chance.

danfo driver,

Thanks. As I mentioned, I believe that I may have under counted.
Last edited by Enugu II on Sat Mar 24, 2018 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 'Zero Shots On Target' Is a Serious Discussion Point

Post by The YeyeMan »

Enugu II wrote:Sure, this is an issue but I do not think it is that big of an issue. I would be concerned big time if there were no opportunities to shoot at goal. In tight encounters like this, opportunities are not going to be that plentiful. Note that we did have multiple shots at goal which indicates that there were indeed opportunities to score besides the penalty kick. By my count, we did have at least six shots and I may have under counted. Vic Moses had two shots, and Ekong, Joel, Kelechi, and Ighalo had one each. We were quite close on two of those -- Vic Mo's free kick and Ighalo's header. The fact that they were not on goal is an issue that bothered on accurate shooting but you have to note that rarely do teams even convert any thing close to 30% of their shots at goal.
In open play...? So let's take off Moses' penalty and free kick attempt. And Ekong's free kick too.
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Re: 'Zero Shots On Target' Is a Serious Discussion Point

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waka-man wrote:My sweetest part of this match was right at the end of the first half when they had that series of corners. To see Ighalo and Uzoho - an attacker and a kid - organising the defence and relishing the challenge. E sweet me no be small
:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

This is how you win tournament. This type of mentality. I dont think I have ever seen this mentality in our teams before.
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Re: 'Zero Shots On Target' Is a Serious Discussion Point

Post by Enugu II »

The YeyeMan wrote:
Enugu II wrote:Sure, this is an issue but I do not think it is that big of an issue. I would be concerned big time if there were no opportunities to shoot at goal. In tight encounters like this, opportunities are not going to be that plentiful. Note that we did have multiple shots at goal which indicates that there were indeed opportunities to score besides the penalty kick. By my count, we did have at least six shots and I may have under counted. Vic Moses had two shots, and Ekong, Joel, Kelechi, and Ighalo had one each. We were quite close on two of those -- Vic Mo's free kick and Ighalo's header. The fact that they were not on goal is an issue that bothered on accurate shooting but you have to note that rarely do teams even convert any thing close to 30% of their shots at goal.
In open play...? So let's take off Moses' penalty and free kick attempt. And Ekong's free kick too.
BTW, the pk was not one that I counted. If you wish to count it then he had three and not two shots. Moses had a shot right after Uzoho's save from Lewandowski. He broke away for about 40 yards but ended up shooting way wide. That was his second shot beside the free kick.

But even when you take off the two free kicks (I don't know why you should, BTW),that is still multiple shots. Then ask yourself, for all the shots Poland had, what was the conversion rate? zero. The point is that while one should be concerned about our shots ON goal it is a bigger concern when you do not have shots AT goal. The later indicates opportunities, the former + the later are unimportant when the conversion rate is poor. IMHO, Nigeria played well against one of the best teams in the world but I agree that all of these may not matter if we fail to play well at the BIG TOURNAMENT in June.
Last edited by Enugu II on Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 'Zero Shots On Target' Is a Serious Discussion Point

Post by The YeyeMan »

Enugu II wrote:
danfo driver wrote:
Enugu II wrote:Sure, this is an issue but I do not think it is that big of an issue. I would be concerned big time if there were no opportunities to shoot at goal. In tight encounters like this, opportunities are not going to be that plentiful. Note that we did have multiple shots at goal which indicates that there were indeed opportunities to score besides the penalty kick. By my count, we did have at least six shots and I may have under counted. Vic Moses had two shots, and Ekong, Joel, Kelechi, and Ighalo had one each. We were quite close on two of those -- Vic Mo's free kick and Ighalo's header. The fact that they were not on goal is an issue that bothered on accurate shooting but you have to note that rarely do teams even convert any thing close to 30% of their shots at goal.
Youe ven forgot the Musa last minute chance.

dance driver,

Thanks. As I mentioned, I believe that I may have under counted.
You over counted. Musa's "chance" wasn't even a shot on goal as I recall.
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Re: 'Zero Shots On Target' Is a Serious Discussion Point

Post by pajimoh »

YemiBrazil wrote:Is it a clearly defined pattern (over a number of matches)? If not, then what is the issue? To make this a serious discussion, we need our 'shots on target' data for at least our last 5 matches to effectively spot an existing pattern in that direction or determine if it's a disturbing new trend. Tuesday's match should answer a few more questions. A 4-2 win over Argentina was a single event that doesn't say much so also this 1-0 victory over Poland in their backyard with zero shots on target. We need to spot a pattern.
The pattern is we always find a way to win. A problem is something that keeps recurring.
How many games have we played that we have no shots on target?
Having no shots on target doesn't mean their were no activities in the opponents box.
The absolute bottom-line is a WIN and we won
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Re: 'Zero Shots On Target' Is a Serious Discussion Point

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Enugu II wrote:But even when you take off the two free kicks (I don't know why you should, BTW),that is still multiple shots. Then ask yourself, for all the shots Poland had, what was the conversion rate? zero. The point is that while one should be concerned about our shots ON goal it is a bigger concern when you do not have shots AT goal. The later indicates opportunities, the former + the later are unimportant when the conversion rate is poor. IMHO, Nigeria played well against one of the best teams in the world but I agree that all of these may not matter if we fail to play well at the BIG TOURNAMENT in June.
Because I'm referring to chances created in open play.

Nobody's saying Nigeria didn't play well, but we were lacking in the final third without a doubt.
Last edited by The YeyeMan on Sat Mar 24, 2018 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 'Zero Shots On Target' Is a Serious Discussion Point

Post by Enugu II »

The YeyeMan wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
danfo driver wrote:
Enugu II wrote:Sure, this is an issue but I do not think it is that big of an issue. I would be concerned big time if there were no opportunities to shoot at goal. In tight encounters like this, opportunities are not going to be that plentiful. Note that we did have multiple shots at goal which indicates that there were indeed opportunities to score besides the penalty kick. By my count, we did have at least six shots and I may have under counted. Vic Moses had two shots, and Ekong, Joel, Kelechi, and Ighalo had one each. We were quite close on two of those -- Vic Mo's free kick and Ighalo's header. The fact that they were not on goal is an issue that bothered on accurate shooting but you have to note that rarely do teams even convert any thing close to 30% of their shots at goal.
Youe ven forgot the Musa last minute chance.

danfo driver,

Thanks. As I mentioned, I believe that I may have under counted.
You over counted. Musa's "chance" wasn't even a shot on goal as I recall.
Yeyeman,

That is not an over count, bros. I myself cannot recall Musa's shot and thus I ddid not count it. However, if indeed he took a shot then I may have under counted. Follow the count that I had put forward that does not include Musa but he would be included if indeed he took a shot.
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Re: 'Zero Shots On Target' Is a Serious Discussion Point

Post by YemiBrazil »

pajimoh wrote:
YemiBrazil wrote:Is it a clearly defined pattern (over a number of matches)? If not, then what is the issue? To make this a serious discussion, we need our 'shots on target' data for at least our last 5 matches to effectively spot an existing pattern in that direction or determine if it's a disturbing new trend. Tuesday's match should answer a few more questions. A 4-2 win over Argentina was a single event that doesn't say much so also this 1-0 victory over Poland in their backyard with zero shots on target. We need to spot a pattern.
The pattern is we always find a way to win. A problem is something that keeps recurring.
How many games have we played that we have no shots on target?
Having no shots on target doesn't mean their were no activities in the opponents box.
The absolute bottom-line is a WIN and we won
That's my point.
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Re: 'Zero Shots On Target' Is a Serious Discussion Point

Post by Enugu II »

The YeyeMan wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
The YeyeMan wrote:But even when you take off the two free kicks (I don't know why you should, BTW),that is still multiple shots. Then ask yourself, for all the shots Poland had, what was the conversion rate? zero. The point is that while one should be concerned about our shots ON goal it is a bigger concern when you do not have shots AT goal. The later indicates opportunities, the former + the later are unimportant when the conversion rate is poor. IMHO, Nigeria played well against one of the best teams in the world but I agree that all of these may not matter if we fail to play well at the BIG TOURNAMENT in June.
Because I'm referring to chances created in open play.

Nobody's saying Nigeria didn't play well, but we were lacking in the final third without a doubt.
Yeyeman,

As I mentioned this was expectedly tight against a top level opponent. Did you expect Nigeria to have a field day taking shots? If you did then that is overly ambitious. Nigeria played well as good be expected. Sure, we did not have a gazillion opportunties but then again we were not against Djibouti.

BTW, shots AT goal are "shots at goal" and they include free kicks. How many did Poland get that were not from set pieces? In fact, most of their threat came from set pieces. I can recall just two, at this moment, that were not set pieces both from Lewandowski.
The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
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Re: 'Zero Shots On Target' Is a Serious Discussion Point

Post by The YeyeMan »

Enugu II wrote:
The YeyeMan wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
danfo driver wrote:
Enugu II wrote:Sure, this is an issue but I do not think it is that big of an issue. I would be concerned big time if there were no opportunities to shoot at goal. In tight encounters like this, opportunities are not going to be that plentiful. Note that we did have multiple shots at goal which indicates that there were indeed opportunities to score besides the penalty kick. By my count, we did have at least six shots and I may have under counted. Vic Moses had two shots, and Ekong, Joel, Kelechi, and Ighalo had one each. We were quite close on two of those -- Vic Mo's free kick and Ighalo's header. The fact that they were not on goal is an issue that bothered on accurate shooting but you have to note that rarely do teams even convert any thing close to 30% of their shots at goal.
Youe ven forgot the Musa last minute chance.

danfo driver,

Thanks. As I mentioned, I believe that I may have under counted.
You over counted. Musa's "chance" wasn't even a shot on goal as I recall.
Yeyeman,

That is not an over count, bros. I myself cannot recall Musa's shot and thus I ddid not count it. However, if indeed he took a shot then I may have under counted. Follow the count that I had put forward that does not include Musa but he would be included if indeed he took a shot.
OK let's leave Musa's "chance" out of this discussion - he didn't have a shot on goal.
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Re: 'Zero Shots On Target' Is a Serious Discussion Point

Post by The YeyeMan »

Enugu II wrote:
The YeyeMan wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
The YeyeMan wrote:But even when you take off the two free kicks (I don't know why you should, BTW),that is still multiple shots. Then ask yourself, for all the shots Poland had, what was the conversion rate? zero. The point is that while one should be concerned about our shots ON goal it is a bigger concern when you do not have shots AT goal. The later indicates opportunities, the former + the later are unimportant when the conversion rate is poor. IMHO, Nigeria played well against one of the best teams in the world but I agree that all of these may not matter if we fail to play well at the BIG TOURNAMENT in June.
Because I'm referring to chances created in open play.

Nobody's saying Nigeria didn't play well, but we were lacking in the final third without a doubt.
Yeyeman,

As I mentioned this was expectedly tight against a top level opponent. Did you expect Nigeria to have a field day taking shots? If you did then that is overly ambitious. Nigeria played well as good be expected. Sure, we did not have a gazillion opportunties but then again we were not against Djibouti.

BTW, shots AT goal are "shots at goal" and they include free kicks. How many did Poland get that were not from set pieces? In fact, most of their threat came from set pieces. I can recall just two, at this moment, that were not set pieces both from Lewandowski.
EII, I know what shots "on goal", or "at goal", or "on target" means. I'm familiar with that. I'm digging a bit deeper and asking about attempts in open play - of which we created few and nothing clear cut. This doesn't take away from the performance it's just a fact.

I don't think it's "overly-ambitious" to expect a team to register a shot on target in 90 minutes.
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Re: 'Zero Shots On Target' Is a Serious Discussion Point

Post by danfo driver »

Enugu II wrote:
The YeyeMan wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
danfo driver wrote:
Enugu II wrote:Sure, this is an issue but I do not think it is that big of an issue. I would be concerned big time if there were no opportunities to shoot at goal. In tight encounters like this, opportunities are not going to be that plentiful. Note that we did have multiple shots at goal which indicates that there were indeed opportunities to score besides the penalty kick. By my count, we did have at least six shots and I may have under counted. Vic Moses had two shots, and Ekong, Joel, Kelechi, and Ighalo had one each. We were quite close on two of those -- Vic Mo's free kick and Ighalo's header. The fact that they were not on goal is an issue that bothered on accurate shooting but you have to note that rarely do teams even convert any thing close to 30% of their shots at goal.
Youe ven forgot the Musa last minute chance.

danfo driver,

Thanks. As I mentioned, I believe that I may have under counted.
You over counted. Musa's "chance" wasn't even a shot on goal as I recall.
Yeyeman,

That is not an over count, bros. I myself cannot recall Musa's shot and thus I ddid not count it. However, if indeed he took a shot then I may have under counted. Follow the count that I had put forward that does not include Musa but he would be included if indeed he took a shot.
Musa didnt take a shot. I was referring to a clear chance we had.
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Re: 'Zero Shots On Target' Is a Serious Discussion Point

Post by Enugu II »

The YeyeMan wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
The YeyeMan wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
The YeyeMan wrote:But even when you take off the two free kicks (I don't know why you should, BTW),that is still multiple shots. Then ask yourself, for all the shots Poland had, what was the conversion rate? zero. The point is that while one should be concerned about our shots ON goal it is a bigger concern when you do not have shots AT goal. The later indicates opportunities, the former + the later are unimportant when the conversion rate is poor. IMHO, Nigeria played well against one of the best teams in the world but I agree that all of these may not matter if we fail to play well at the BIG TOURNAMENT in June.
Because I'm referring to chances created in open play.

Nobody's saying Nigeria didn't play well, but we were lacking in the final third without a doubt.
Yeyeman,

As I mentioned this was expectedly tight against a top level opponent. Did you expect Nigeria to have a field day taking shots? If you did then that is overly ambitious. Nigeria played well as good be expected. Sure, we did not have a gazillion opportunties but then again we were not against Djibouti.

BTW, shots AT goal are "shots at goal" and they include free kicks. How many did Poland get that were not from set pieces? In fact, most of their threat came from set pieces. I can recall just two, at this moment, that were not set pieces both from Lewandowski.
EII, I know what shots "on goal", or "at goal", or "on target" means. I'm familiar with that. I'm digging a bit deeper and asking about attempts in open play - of which we created few and nothing clear cut. This doesn't take away from the performance it's just a fact.

I don't think it's "overly-ambitious" to expect a team to register a shot on target in 90 minutes.
Yeyeman,

It is an issue but I do not think it is quite as big as it is being made. The point is this team is one of the most clinical teams going into the World Cup and I am not just counting the African teams, BTW. Our team gets opportunities and it comes from the play. Think about this, we earned several set piece opportunities because of play in that final phase. We earned a penalty from that very play in the final phase. Those indicate the threat posed by SE. Yes, it was not plentiful but very few people should expect them to be plentiful against the team that Nigeria faced yesterday. Thus, it is important to account for the context and as someone has already stated -- investigate if this is in fact a pattern.
The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
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Re: 'Zero Shots On Target' Is a Serious Discussion Point

Post by pajimoh »

YemiBrazil wrote:
pajimoh wrote:
YemiBrazil wrote:Is it a clearly defined pattern (over a number of matches)? If not, then what is the issue? To make this a serious discussion, we need our 'shots on target' data for at least our last 5 matches to effectively spot an existing pattern in that direction or determine if it's a disturbing new trend. Tuesday's match should answer a few more questions. A 4-2 win over Argentina was a single event that doesn't say much so also this 1-0 victory over Poland in their backyard with zero shots on target. We need to spot a pattern.
The pattern is we always find a way to win. A problem is something that keeps recurring.
How many games have we played that we have no shots on target?
Having no shots on target doesn't mean their were no activities in the opponents box.
The absolute bottom-line is a WIN and we won
That's my point.
:thumb: Your post gave me the opportunity to breakdown what you're implying so people start seeing the positives from their perceived negative occurrence.

It's good to know we can defend resolutely, even with a rookie in goal. It is good to know we can grind out a result, even without shots on target.

Big morale booster for our boys knowing they can win ugly. As for our opponents, they'll be thinking the longer the game progresses without them registering a goal, the more they are in danger.
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Re: 'Zero Shots On Target' Is a Serious Discussion Point

Post by green4life »

Damunk wrote:Seriously now.
Sentiments aside, we can't sweep this vital statistic under the carpet.
The return of Mikel isn't going to correct this, and neither will Etebo.

So what is the problem?
What do we do?
What are our options?
What is Rohr thinking about this?
I'm not sure about Etebo but certainly the return of Mikel fixes this issue no doubt. Now you see why Rohr prefers to play Mikel just behind Ighalo as opposed to deep midfield.
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Re: 'Zero Shots On Target' Is a Serious Discussion Point

Post by smartbrother »

Some People love burying their heads in the sand
Untill the issues blow up in their faces
I just hope iRohr is not one of such people

It’s a significant stat given We had great goal scorers in nacho and Ighalo on the pitch
if you can’t create chances for your strikers from open play you get stats like this
In my view the reason is we are fundamentally a counterattacking side
Uninterested in controlling games or executing good build up play
Especially When Mikel is not available

There is Nothing wrong in counterattacking football
Until we go behind and need to find a goal
against a team that’s good at keeping possession and parking the bus
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Re: 'Zero Shots On Target' Is a Serious Discussion Point

Post by danfo driver »

smartbrother wrote:Some People love burying their heads in the sand
Untill the issues blow up in their faces
I just hope iRohr is not one of such people

It’s a significant stat given We had great goal scorers in nacho and Ighalo on the pitch
if you can’t create chances for your strikers from open play you get stats like this
In my view the reason is we are fundamentally a counterattacking side
Uninterested in controlling games or executing good build up play
Especially When Mikel is not available

There is Nothing wrong in counterattacking football
Until we go behind and need to find a goal
against a team that’s good at keeping possession and parking the bus

Hmm, you mean like against Argentina, when we were 2 goals down? :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

Unfortunately for you, this Nigerian team is tactically versatile. We can play counter attach and we can create. Best believe that.
"it is better to be excited now and disappointed later, than it is to be disappointed now and later." - Marcus Aurelius, 178AD
metalalloy wrote: Does the SE have Gray, Mahrez or Albrighton on our team or players of their caliber?
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pajimoh
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Re: 'Zero Shots On Target' Is a Serious Discussion Point

Post by pajimoh »

smartbrother wrote:Some People love burying their heads in the sand
Untill the issues blow up in their faces
I just hope iRohr is not one of such people

It’s a significant stat given We had great goal scorers in nacho and Ighalo on the pitch
if you can’t create chances for your strikers from open play you get stats like this
In my view the reason is we are fundamentally a counterattacking side
Uninterested in controlling games or executing good build up play
Especially When Mikel is not available

There is Nothing wrong in counterattacking football
Until we go behind and need to find a goal
against a team that’s good at keeping possession and parking the bus
This is not a question of head in the sand. .... Nigeria did not get here by not registering a shot on goal. This Is not the norm. You'll have games like this. Club sides and big teams do.
They will obviously review the game.
Lets see how the next game pans out
Super Eagles - Fly Above The Storm!!!
smartbrother
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Re: 'Zero Shots On Target' Is a Serious Discussion Point

Post by smartbrother »

danfo driver wrote:
smartbrother wrote:Some People love burying their heads in the sand
Untill the issues blow up in their faces
I just hope iRohr is not one of such people

It’s a significant stat given We had great goal scorers in nacho and Ighalo on the pitch
if you can’t create chances for your strikers from open play you get stats like this
In my view the reason is we are fundamentally a counterattacking side
Uninterested in controlling games or executing good build up play
Especially When Mikel is not available

There is Nothing wrong in counterattacking football
Until we go behind and need to find a goal
against a team that’s good at keeping possession and parking the bus

Hmm, you mean like against Argentina, when we were 2 goals down? :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

Unfortunately for you, this Nigerian team is tactically versatile. We can play counter attach and we can create. Best believe that.
Why Nigeria being tactically versatile would be unfortunate me is a question I’ll leave for you and your tortured mind to ponder
Against Argentina Our goals were set pieces and counterattacks
Imho if we go one goal down vs any of our opponents in a competitive setting like the wc we will struggle to get back in the game
smartbrother
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Re: 'Zero Shots On Target' Is a Serious Discussion Point

Post by smartbrother »

smartbrother wrote:
danfo driver wrote:
smartbrother wrote:Some People love burying their heads in the sand
Untill the issues blow up in their faces
I just hope iRohr is not one of such people

It’s a significant stat given We had great goal scorers in nacho and Ighalo on the pitch
if you can’t create chances for your strikers from open play you get stats like this
In my view the reason is we are fundamentally a counterattacking side
Uninterested in controlling games or executing good build up play
Especially When Mikel is not available

There is Nothing wrong in counterattacking football
Until we go behind and need to find a goal
against a team that’s good at keeping possession and parking the bus

Hmm, you mean like against Argentina, when we were 2 goals down? :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf:

Unfortunately for you, this Nigerian team is tactically versatile. We can play counter attach and we can create. Best believe that.
How/Why Nigeria being tactically versatile would be unfortunate me is a question I’ll leave for you and your tortured mind to ponder
Against Argentina Our goals were set pieces and counterattacks
Imho if we go one goal down vs any of our opponents in a competitive setting like the wc we will struggle to get back in the game

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