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 Post subject: Re: SAYS ODEGBAMI
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:34 pm 
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Well said and is happening now! Where is the Nigerian flair that can unlock that defence with a piece of outrageous skills and magic, no where to be seen yesterday

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 Post subject: Re: SAYS ODEGBAMI
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:52 pm 
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Let me help a few people who can not comprehend what the Chief have told us before the kick-off to chop 2-kondo. By the way it could have been more rondo than 2. I will post the koko of the matter below........................................................./............................................................................

The team has been more European than any national team in our history.
For the first time the Super Eagles have more players that never played domestic football in Nigeria and are not honed in the typical Nigerian style of football in the Super Eagles.
These are not Nigerian players in the true sense of the word. They are foreign-Nigerian players, limited in the Nigerian style and, yet, not the best in their European foundation.
What we now have is a new kind of Super Eagles made up of a mix of good players (but average by European standards) and good home-grown players that are not exceptional, in a combination that has been playing well as a 'team'.
That's how they overcame their African challengers during qualifiers. But that's what makes this present team suspiciously 'weak', and potential sitting ducks when the World Cup proper begins.
Unless the World Cup produces them when the competition starts, the present team lacks the outstanding individual player in the mold Muda Lawal, Haruna Ilerika, Finidi George, Kanu Nwankwo, Jay Jay Okocha and so on - very skillful and extravagantly expressive on the ball, who could turn defeat into victory with one moment, movement or pass of mag


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 Post subject: Re: SAYS ODEGBAMI
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:00 pm 
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Agbako wrote:
Let me help a few people who can not comprehend what the Chief have told us before the kick-off to chop 2-kondo. By the way it could have been more rondo than 2. I will post the koko of the matter below........................................................./............................................................................

The team has been more European than any national team in our history.
For the first time the Super Eagles have more players that never played domestic football in Nigeria and are not honed in the typical Nigerian style of football in the Super Eagles.
These are not Nigerian players in the true sense of the word. They are foreign-Nigerian players, limited in the Nigerian style and, yet, not the best in their European foundation.
What we now have is a new kind of Super Eagles made up of a mix of good players (but average by European standards) and good home-grown players that are not exceptional, in a combination that has been playing well as a 'team'.
That's how they overcame their African challengers during qualifiers. But that's what makes this present team suspiciously 'weak', and potential sitting ducks when the World Cup proper begins.
Unless the World Cup produces them when the competition starts, the present team lacks the outstanding individual player in the mold Muda Lawal, Haruna Ilerika, Finidi George, Kanu Nwankwo, Jay Jay Okocha and so on - very skillful and extravagantly expressive on the ball, who could turn defeat into victory with one moment, movement or pass of mag

:clap: :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

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 Post subject: Re: SAYS ODEGBAMI
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:16 pm 
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Agbako wrote:
Let me help a few people who can not comprehend what the Chief have told us before the kick-off to chop 2-kondo. By the way it could have been more rondo than 2. I will post the koko of the matter below........................................................./............................................................................

The team has been more European than any national team in our history.
For the first time the Super Eagles have more players that never played domestic football in Nigeria and are not honed in the typical Nigerian style of football in the Super Eagles.
These are not Nigerian players in the true sense of the word. They are foreign-Nigerian players, limited in the Nigerian style and, yet, not the best in their European foundation.
What we now have is a new kind of Super Eagles made up of a mix of good players (but average by European standards) and good home-grown players that are not exceptional, in a combination that has been playing well as a 'team'.
That's how they overcame their African challengers during qualifiers. But that's what makes this present team suspiciously 'weak', and potential sitting ducks when the World Cup proper begins.
Unless the World Cup produces them when the competition starts, the present team lacks the outstanding individual player in the mold Muda Lawal, Haruna Ilerika, Finidi George, Kanu Nwankwo, Jay Jay Okocha and so on - very skillful and extravagantly expressive on the ball, who could turn defeat into victory with one moment, movement or pass of mag


Sorry, but you haven’t fully grasped the essence of what SO is saying. I underlined it in the previous page.

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We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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 Post subject: Re: SAYS ODEGBAMI
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 3:23 pm 
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The point that Odegbami made is the point I was going to make to Oloye about 2 or 3 weeks ago.

I was going to make a parallel to the D'Tigers in that game against the USA in 2012. I was one of the Nigerians who actually watched the D'Tigers on the road to the Olympics. I watched them play against some of the best fringe teams in the world, in a qualification process (that one might argue) was more difficult than qualifying outright from Africa. They were a good team!

Yet the manner in which they lost to the USA would have neutral observers believing that it was a poor side! I held a theory then and I still hold it now, that they had no chance, trying to out-USA America. That D'Tiger team would essentially be comparable to a third or fourth tier American side, yet they were going to out-USA America? In what universe?

To be truly dominant in football, you either have to be one of the best in the predominant paradigm or bring forth a rival paradigm that is equally as effective or more effective. In the past few games, we have been playing a brand of football that is not one of the best European styles and is not novel.

The greatest strength of the 94 team (was not even their individual abilities) but the fact that they played an end-end form of football than was very rare in those days! It is now more common-place, but one might argue that we still have the edge due to some of our personnel.

No team can ever succeed in the World Cup or the Champions League or the Euros, without utilizing a tool of comparative advantage. Iceland did well against Argentina because they played to their strength, Greece won the Euros by playing to their strength. Spain won the World Cup playing to their strength. You cannot achieve anything at the highest level, without standing out in some way.

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 Post subject: Re: SAYS ODEGBAMI
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:11 pm 
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EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote:
The Nigerian based player is too craptastic for the wc.

Dude you are never going to win anything outside of Africa with foreign born players dominating your team rooster. Never.

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 Post subject: Re: SAYS ODEGBAMI
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:17 pm 
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cchinukw wrote:
EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote:
The Nigerian based player is too craptastic for the wc.

Dude you are never going to win anything outside of Africa with foreign born players dominating your team rooster. Never.

How many foreign born players featured in our game against Croatia?

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 Post subject: Re: SAYS ODEGBAMI
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:22 pm 
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Ekorian wrote:
cchinukw wrote:
EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote:
The Nigerian based player is too craptastic for the wc.

Dude you are never going to win anything outside of Africa with foreign born players dominating your team rooster. Never.

How many foreign born players featured in our game against Croatia?

It appears to be the direction of travel with our lazy thinking that everything Nigeria based is crap.

Imagine trying to get Aina on this team ahead of Echiejile.

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MAGA - Make Arsenal Great Again.

“Emery put on so many videos I ran out of popcorn,” former player Joaquín quipped, “he’s obsessed by football, it’s practically an illness.”

Post Wenger-Arsenal go sweero


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 Post subject: Re: SAYS ODEGBAMI
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:54 pm 
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Only a 'PLAYERS-REVOLT' will give us any chance of leaving this WC with any respect.
Rohr is just a cowardly-jack-ss coach that is scared of his damn shadow.

Foolish old coward. :curse: :curse: :curse:

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 Post subject: Re: SAYS ODEGBAMI
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:59 pm 
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cchinukw wrote:
Ekorian wrote:
cchinukw wrote:
EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote:
The Nigerian based player is too craptastic for the wc.

Dude you are never going to win anything outside of Africa with foreign born players dominating your team rooster. Never.

How many foreign born players featured in our game against Croatia?

It appears to be the direction of travel with our lazy thinking that everything Nigeria based is crap.

Imagine trying to get Aina on this team ahead of Echiejile.


HERE IS ONE FACTOR THAT HAS NOT BEEN DISCUSSED MUCH

That is the proportion of foreign based players in this squad. Before anyone gets the wrong impression, I want and totally welcome all offspring of Nigerians who want to represent the land of their parents. Now the question must be asked, how much have they altered the natural Nigerian style destroying cohesiveness? I'm not sure. But going forward, I think they key is to develop the local lads such that only the exceptional ones can make the team/squad to fill areas where local talent is lacking, That way they can't alter the style of play. Once there were only a handful of these players but now they are roughly half the starters.
Bell

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 Post subject: Re: SAYS ODEGBAMI
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 8:02 pm 
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Bell wrote:
cchinukw wrote:
Ekorian wrote:
cchinukw wrote:
EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote:
The Nigerian based player is too craptastic for the wc.

Dude you are never going to win anything outside of Africa with foreign born players dominating your team rooster. Never.

How many foreign born players featured in our game against Croatia?

It appears to be the direction of travel with our lazy thinking that everything Nigeria based is crap.

Imagine trying to get Aina on this team ahead of Echiejile.


HERE IS ONE FACTOR THAT HAS NOT BEEN DISCUSSED MUCH

That is the proportion of foreign based players in this squad. Before anyone gets the wrong impression, I want and totally welcome all offspring of Nigerians who want to represent the land of their parents. Now the question must be asked, how much have they altered the natural Nigerian style destroying cohesiveness? I'm not sure. But going forward, I think they key is to develop the local lads such that only the exceptional ones can make the team/squad to fill areas where local talent is lacking, That way they can't alter the style of play. Once there were only a handful of these players but now they are roughly half the starters.
Bell


That’s not the issue at all...

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Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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 Post subject: Re: SAYS ODEGBAMI
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:56 pm 
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Bell wrote:
http://allafrica.com/stories/201806090072.html
Super Eagles.

By Segun Odegbami

At last, the 2018 World Cup will start in about seven days from now.
All the 32 countries in the championship are in a race to play as many friendly matches as possible against opposition that looks like those they will be playing against when 'hostilities' begin on June 14.
These matches are to gauge and hone the teams, discover the best in-form players, work out tactics, unearth 'hidden' gems, build up confidence, and generally get the team to 'blend' and start to play cohesively as a unit, beyond the product of the usual quick-assembly of players a day or two before most of the qualifying matches that, often, never gives managers ample time to get the players to play with depth and discipline in tandem with his vision for their ultimate team.
These past two weeks have made national teams either more confident and raring to go to Russia, or very jittery and unsure of themselves as in the case of the Super Eagles following their spate of uninspiring performances.
The last three friendly matches played by the Eagles, once touted by Nigerians as the team to beat in Group D, have ended in losses that have left their supporters with more questions than answers.
This could not be the same Eagles that sailed through the qualifying rounds of the World Cup without a dent.


This could not be the team that deservedly trounced Argentina (without Lionel Messi though) only a few months ago.
This could not be the team that taught Serbia a lesson on how to win matches without playing well.
So confident did Nigerians become that last week, for the first time in their history, replica shirts of the national team sold like wild fire in the international market.
Three million Nike shirts were reportedly sold out within hours of release into the London market, with long winding queues of shoppers around entire blocks waiting on the sidewalks to buy them throughout that day.
That was an unprecedented scene, reflective of the status and expectations of fans of the Super Eagles.
Of course, amongst the smaller audience of international football analysts there have never been any lavish expectations.
Nigeria was never considered anywhere near favourites to win the most coveted football trophy in the world. Teams just do not wake up and think they can win the World Cup.
Statistically, only a few teams have ever won the prestigious trophy since inception in 1938. Of those teams only even fewer still have managed to win it two times or more.

Some teams have mastered the winning formula and applied it more than others to dominate the teams at the top during every World Cup.
Nothing beats the psychology of a previous winner. Outside of these, plus the teams that won using advantage of being hosts, teams just do not wake up and win the World Cup.
But trust the most passionate followers of football in the world, Nigerian supporters would always dream that their beloved Super Eagles, with prayers and fasting, would do the unthinkable, and win it.
Nigerians are unrepentantly optimistic. Even when they presented the weakest assemblies of players in Korea/Japan 2002 and South Africa 2010, even I recklessly joined in the wishful thinking.
You see, Nigerians have a good reason to hope for a miracle. It has happened to them at all other levels except at the World Cup.
It happened to them in 1985 in China with the Under-16 national team.
It happened during the 'Damman Miracle' in Saudi Arabia in 1989 at the Under-20 level when they got very close but did not win.

In 1996 it happened in Atlanta when they won the Olympic Gold at Under-23!
The belief is that the World Cup 'miracle' is close by.
In 1994, during their first appearance at the World Cup in America, they were rated after the championship as the most entertaining team with their unadulterated free-flowing attacking style of football, and fifth ranked in the world for their great run of victories that year.
Since 1996, the seed of the possibility of winning the World Cup was firmly planted in every Nigerian player and indeed, in every Nigerian.
That year they overcame the fear of impossibility. They became reckless in their optimism every time they qualify for the World Cup.
That's the feeling still running in the veins of the players and their supporters as Russia 2018 approaches.
Unfortunately, these past two weeks have been a psychological dampener.
With how the team effortlessly lost their last two friendlies, in particular, the spirit of high expectations has been dampened, and morale is low and the songs of victory are now only in whimpers.
My rating of the Super Eagles
The Super Eagles have a 'registered' playing trade mark. Nigerian players are generally very physical, athletic and expressive on the ball. These make attacking football at a fast pace their forte and is very attractive when playing down the flanks at speed and with power.
General team play organization and discipline are often what lets them down at the highest level.
Nigerian players play more from instinct than through orchestrated team tactics. This is because of the limitation in their domestic home-grounding.
They depend on their exceptional individual skillful players in the team who can do individual magic with the ball and express themselves to the delight of any coach that appreciates and uses this as part of his team tactics.

Westerhof and Jo Bonfere, two former Dutch coaches of the team, were masters at this game of applying the natural strength of Nigerian players as a team tactic and getting the best out of the team without necessarily being over tactical.

This maybe what Genrot Rohr has not discovered and has not applied to the present Super Eagles from the last few matches against non-African teams that the team has played.

The team has been more European than any national team in our history.
For the first time the Super Eagles have more players that never played domestic football in Nigeria and are not honed in the typical Nigerian style of football in the Super Eagles.
These are not Nigerian players in the true sense of the word. They are foreign-Nigerian players, limited in the Nigerian style and, yet, not the best in their European foundation.
What we now have is a new kind of Super Eagles made up of a mix of good players (but average by European standards) and good home-grown players that are not exceptional, in a combination that has been playing well as a 'team'.
That's how they overcame their African challengers during qualifiers. But that's what makes this present team suspiciously 'weak', and potential sitting ducks when the World Cup proper begins.

Unless the World Cup produces them when the competition starts, the present team lacks the outstanding individual player in the mold Muda Lawal, Haruna Ilerika, Finidi George, Kanu Nwankwo, Jay Jay Okocha and so on - very skillful and extravagantly expressive on the ball, who could turn defeat into victory with one moment, movement or pass of magic.
Bell


Sometime CE surprises me. This article by Segun Odegbami is very insightful and clearly spells the different approach by the duo of Pinnick and Rohr from the duo of Westerhof and Bonfrere and its outcome, well so far for the Rohr Pinnick experiment.

When Clemence Westerhof was introduced to us in the late stages of our failed WC 1990 qualifying bid, Westerhof (as he has explained in depth) set out to seek the nigerian talent that will give us success. Westerhof told us of how he searched up and down for particular players especially in Nigeria. He found players that were suited to the nigerian football DNA ie tall, athletic, powerful, skillful, resolute, maybe not tactical but that will be Westerhof's input. Westerhof found giants which he took to the 1990 and 1992 AFCON and by 1994 they had become a well oiled machine. Westerhof even funnelled some of them into furthering their career in Europe.

Pinnick and Rohr on the other hand set out to look for european-trained nigerian players ignoring the NPFL altogether. What we are now seeing are players that do not have the nigerian DNA and are playing in a way that is foreign to us. The SE team that lost to Croatia yesterday for me is NOT nigerian. They are not us and they are not the way we know football is played.

Odegbami's argument is one that has traumatised Brazil for a long time where ginca and jogo bonito is replaced by the european placid style which is brought to the national team and brazilians simply find it ugly. I don't know how Pinnick and Rohr are going to avoid a major fallout with the nigerian football public if this team fails because the likes of Iwobi, Moses, Balogun, Ekong were not schooled in the nigerian football tradition. Westerhof took some risks with the likes of Reuben Agboola but I also remember when Westerhof brought Efan Ekoku in against Zaire in 1994 AFCON and Ekoku missed a glaring chance, Westerhof removed him immediately. Rohr on the other hand would have made him a permanent feature.

Odegbami was right in his analysis and the friendlies and the disaster against Croatia bear testimony. The point is whether Rohr will be viewed in years to come as a wasted opportunity to find real talent in the NPFL and turn them into masters. Time will tell.


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 Post subject: Re: SAYS ODEGBAMI
PostPosted: Sun Jun 17, 2018 11:29 pm 
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txj wrote:
Bell wrote:
cchinukw wrote:
Ekorian wrote:
cchinukw wrote:
EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote:
The Nigerian based player is too craptastic for the wc.

Dude you are never going to win anything outside of Africa with foreign born players dominating your team rooster. Never.

How many foreign born players featured in our game against Croatia?

It appears to be the direction of travel with our lazy thinking that everything Nigeria based is crap.

Imagine trying to get Aina on this team ahead of Echiejile.


HERE IS ONE FACTOR THAT HAS NOT BEEN DISCUSSED MUCH

That is the proportion of foreign based players in this squad. Before anyone gets the wrong impression, I want and totally welcome all offspring of Nigerians who want to represent the land of their parents. Now the question must be asked, how much have they altered the natural Nigerian style destroying cohesiveness? I'm not sure. But going forward, I think they key is to develop the local lads such that only the exceptional ones can make the team/squad to fill areas where local talent is lacking, That way they can't alter the style of play. Once there were only a handful of these players but now they are roughly half the starters.
Bell


That’s not the issue at all...


Txj,

It may not be the issue from your view point but it certainly can be the ISSUE from the view point of others. IMHO, it is important to allow space for others with that view to share their thinking whatever it may be.

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The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
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 Post subject: Re: SAYS ODEGBAMI
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:06 am 
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I'm not convinced there is much merit in Odegbami's analysis.
You've got to strike a balance between flair and tactical discipline but you cant have both operating maximally side by side.

Flair and creativity by definition entail doing the unconventional and if you have too many flair players in a team, you are in danger of losing your tactical discipline.
Making both work for you means there has to be compromise to some degree in both areas. Its a balancing act. Even Brazil have struggled to get it right.

Its we same Nigerians that will abuse the flair players at the end of the day: Our greatest two such players, JJ Okocha and King Kanu have both been widely and unfairly (IMHO) accused of being "unproductive" - by Nigerians!

IMHO, Iwobi, Moses, Mikel and Ebuehi are the four 'flair' players in the team right now. Capable of pulling out a moment of magic but I feel Moses and Mikel are too erratic and somewhat indisciplined (they do their own thing when they want to do it), while Iwobi and Ebuehi are still young and learning their trade.

IF THERE IS ONE WORD THAT HAS BEEN CONSISTENTLY USED TO DESCRIBE OUR TEAMS OVER THE DECADES, IT IS 'INDISCIPLINED' - which is the polite way of saying 'tactically naive'.
I hate it when I hear it but that isn't to say there is no merit whatsoever to the observation.

I have always believed national teams are an accurate reflection of it's people - forget where the players actually ply their trade. You usually kind of know what to expect depending on the country you are playing...the Germans, the Spanish, Argentinians, Italians, Koreans & Japanese, the Swedes, Mexicans, Icelanders, the English, Dutch and Russians.

We are no different.
Show me your national team and I will tell you who your people are.

Can anybody deny that Nigerian society is impatient, erratic, unpredictable, unruly and unconventional whilst at the same time can be creatively brilliant, fearless and aggressive?

Rohr is trying to bring some organisation to the Nigerian game. Whether he succeeds is another matter, but he now stands accused of totally destroying the "Nigerian style of play", whatever that means.
But when we did play this so-called 'Nigerian' style, how far did it really get us?

It only got us so far and it was the lack of discipline and focus that got us knocked out in both '94 (Italy) and '98 (Paraguay in what was for us a meaningless group match) and later, more crucially Denmark both in the second round of the WC.

Yes, we entertained the world with our unpredictable, fearless, swashbuckling style but it didn't take them very long to 'sus us out' and suddenly we were 'gone in 90 minutes'.
End of story. Come back next time.

Personally, I think the main issue with this team is inexperience. You just can't buy experience, or borrow it. Pinnick said it many many months ago - that the running joke in the NFF is that "this team is ready for 2022". I flagged this up a while back but few were really willing to consider that point and its implications for now.

If the fans' reaction after one game is anything to go by, then we are already on the path to doing what we have always done - sacking the coach and starting all over. I think that'll be about 22 coaches in 23 years. Its hard to keep track with Nigeria. We heavily criticise our leaders - and more specifically in this case, the NFF - of never having any foresight or long-term plans. But the average Naija fan does not have the stomach to stick out long-term planning. They want results...immediately.

The real test is on the real stage we are standing on right now - for our team but also for us the fans. The team is out there to face their fate and be held accountable in full view of the world. We the fans, on the other hand, are mostly faceless and nobody holds us accountable for anything. But we are failing the test spectacularly if our only reaction to adversity is to panic, rain abuse and 'get rid'.
That is so typically our Nigerian way of dealing with a challenge - the very things we love to criticise our 'clueless misleaders' of doing.

So for the sake of peace let's keep doing what we keep doing. Maybe one day we will get a different result.
But I say we hold our nerve and stick with this team (including Rohr), continue to nurture and build whatever the outcome of this WC.

We just can't afford to keep chopping and changing with every set-back.

Just my two kobo.

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 Post subject: Re: SAYS ODEGBAMI
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 9:54 am 
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Damunk wrote:
I'm not convinced there is much merit in Odegbami's analysis.
You've got to strike a balance between flair and tactical discipline but you cant have both operating maximally side by side.

Flair and creativity by definition entail doing the unconventional and if you have too many flair players in a team, you are in danger of losing your tactical discipline.
Making both work for you means there has to be compromise to some degree in both areas. Its a balancing act. Even Brazil have struggled to get it right.

Its we same Nigerians that will abuse the flair players at the end of the day: Our greatest two such players, JJ Okocha and King Kanu have both been widely and unfairly (IMHO) accused of being "unproductive" - by Nigerians!

IMHO, Iwobi, Moses, Mikel and Ebuehi are the four 'flair' players in the team right now. Capable of pulling out a moment of magic but I feel Moses and Mikel are too erratic and somewhat indisciplined (they do their own thing when they want to do it), while Iwobi and Ebuehi are still young and learning their trade.

IF THERE IS ONE WORD THAT HAS BEEN CONSISTENTLY USED TO DESCRIBE OUR TEAMS OVER THE DECADES, IT IS 'INDISCIPLINED' - which is the polite way of saying 'tactically naive'.
I hate it when I hear it but that isn't to say there is no merit whatsoever to the observation.

I have always believed national teams are an accurate reflection of it's people - forget where the players actually ply their trade. You usually kind of know what to expect depending on the country you are playing...the Germans, the Spanish, Argentinians, Italians, Koreans & Japanese, the Swedes, Mexicans, Icelanders, the English, Dutch and Russians.

We are no different.
Show me your national team and I will tell you who your people are.

Can anybody deny that Nigerian society is impatient, erratic, unpredictable, unruly and unconventional whilst at the same time can be creatively brilliant, fearless and aggressive?

Rohr is trying to bring some organisation to the Nigerian game. Whether he succeeds is another matter, but he now stands accused of totally destroying the "Nigerian style of play", whatever that means.
But when we did play this so-called 'Nigerian' style, how far did it really get us?

It only got us so far and it was the lack of discipline and focus that got us knocked out in both '94 (Italy) and '98 (Paraguay in what was for us a meaningless group match) and later, more crucially Denmark both in the second round of the WC.

Yes, we entertained the world with our unpredictable, fearless, swashbuckling style but it didn't take them very long to 'sus us out' and suddenly we were 'gone in 90 minutes'.
End of story. Come back next time.

Personally, I think the main issue with this team is inexperience. You just can't buy experience, or borrow it. Pinnick said it many many months ago - that the running joke in the NFF is that "this team is ready for 2022". I flagged this up a while back but few were really willing to consider that point and its implications for now.

If the fans' reaction after one game is anything to go by, then we are already on the path to doing what we have always done - sacking the coach and starting all over. I think that'll be about 22 coaches in 23 years. Its hard to keep track with Nigeria. We heavily criticise our leaders - and more specifically in this case, the NFF - of never having any foresight or long-term plans. But the average Naija fan does not have the stomach to stick out long-term planning. They want results...immediately.

The real test is on the real stage we are standing on right now - for our team but also for us the fans. The team is out there to face their fate and be held accountable in full view of the world. We the fans, on the other hand, are mostly faceless and nobody holds us accountable for anything. But we are failing the test spectacularly if our only reaction to adversity is to panic, rain abuse and 'get rid'.
That is so typically our Nigerian way of dealing with a challenge - the very things we love to criticise our 'clueless misleaders' of doing.

So for the sake of peace let's keep doing what we keep doing. Maybe one day we will get a different result.
But I say we hold our nerve and stick with this team (including Rohr), continue to nurture and build whatever the outcome of this WC.

We just can't afford to keep chopping and changing with every set-back.

Just my two kobo.


Damunk,

The Nigerian style is always on show (for you) at the U17 level and in 1994 and 1996, it broke through to the U23/SE level. We got close in 1994 but for a few minutes against Italy, but it remains on show at U17 level every 2 years or so. England are today world champions at U17 and U20 level and their aim is to drive that DNA change through to the senior level, which is why Gareth Soughgate is manager today and Reuben Loftus-Cheek and Rashford are in the squad. Time will tell as to the success of the initiative of Pinnick and Rohr. But right now, it is not what we know or like.


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 Post subject: Re: SAYS ODEGBAMI
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:39 pm 
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Enugu II wrote:
txj wrote:
Bell wrote:
cchinukw wrote:
Ekorian wrote:
cchinukw wrote:
EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote:
The Nigerian based player is too craptastic for the wc.

Dude you are never going to win anything outside of Africa with foreign born players dominating your team rooster. Never.

How many foreign born players featured in our game against Croatia?

It appears to be the direction of travel with our lazy thinking that everything Nigeria based is crap.

Imagine trying to get Aina on this team ahead of Echiejile.


HERE IS ONE FACTOR THAT HAS NOT BEEN DISCUSSED MUCH

That is the proportion of foreign based players in this squad. Before anyone gets the wrong impression, I want and totally welcome all offspring of Nigerians who want to represent the land of their parents. Now the question must be asked, how much have they altered the natural Nigerian style destroying cohesiveness? I'm not sure. But going forward, I think they key is to develop the local lads such that only the exceptional ones can make the team/squad to fill areas where local talent is lacking, That way they can't alter the style of play. Once there were only a handful of these players but now they are roughly half the starters.
Bell


That’s not the issue at all...


Txj,

It may not be the issue from your view point but it certainly can be the ISSUE from the view point of others. IMHO, it is important to allow space for others with that view to share their thinking whatever it may be.



Its the world wide web in case you've forgotten. Everyone can and does express an opinion.

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We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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 Post subject: Re: SAYS ODEGBAMI
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:27 pm 
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Goldleaf wrote:

Damunk,

The Nigerian style is always on show (for you) at the U17 level and in 1994 and 1996, it broke through to the U23/SE level. We got close in 1994 but for a few minutes against Italy, but it remains on show at U17 level every 2 years or so. England are today world champions at U17 and U20 level and their aim is to drive that DNA change through to the senior level, which is why Gareth Soughgate is manager today and Reuben Loftus-Cheek and Rashford are in the squad. Time will tell as to the success of the initiative of Pinnick and Rohr. But right now, it is not what we know or like.
Yes, this is a theory I have been very keen to embrace, but the fact remains that youth level football has proven to have little or no bearing on senior football.
Only a small percentage of youth internationals make it through to their senior national teams and therefore what we are referring to as the "Nigerian style' might be nothing more than an amateurish approach to the game that is easily neutralized at the senior professional level.

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 Post subject: Re: SAYS ODEGBAMI
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:37 pm 
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txj wrote:
Its the world wide web in case you've forgotten. Everyone can and does express an opinion.


KPOM. And everyone can define what they think the issue is from their view. Do not attempt to mute them. Express your view and allow others to do the same.

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The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
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 Post subject: Re: SAYS ODEGBAMI
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:45 pm 
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Enugu II wrote:
txj wrote:
Its the world wide web in case you've forgotten. Everyone can and does express an opinion.


KPOM. And everyone can define what they think the issue is from their view. Do not attempt to mute them. Express your view and allow others to do the same.


:???: :???: :???:

Not sure what ur problem is...I have not read anyone say, or even suggest that I attempted to mute them before you came on board.

If you have nothing to offer to the debate, pls move on...

_________________
Image
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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 Post subject: Re: SAYS ODEGBAMI
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:58 pm 
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Damunk wrote:
Goldleaf wrote:

Damunk,

The Nigerian style is always on show (for you) at the U17 level and in 1994 and 1996, it broke through to the U23/SE level. We got close in 1994 but for a few minutes against Italy, but it remains on show at U17 level every 2 years or so. England are today world champions at U17 and U20 level and their aim is to drive that DNA change through to the senior level, which is why Gareth Soughgate is manager today and Reuben Loftus-Cheek and Rashford are in the squad. Time will tell as to the success of the initiative of Pinnick and Rohr. But right now, it is not what we know or like.
Yes, this is a theory I have been very keen to embrace, but the fact remains that youth level football has proven to have little or no bearing on senior football.
Only a small percentage of youth internationals make it through to their senior national teams and therefore what we are referring to as the "Nigerian style' might be nothing more than an amateurish approach to the game that is easily neutralized at the senior professional level.


Damunk,

I am not talking about players transitioning to senior levels. I am talking about the style. In 1994 and 1996, we witnessed the style that we see at the U17. It is about the coaching and development.


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 Post subject: Re: SAYS ODEGBAMI
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:03 pm 
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txj wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
txj wrote:
Its the world wide web in case you've forgotten. Everyone can and does express an opinion.


KPOM. And everyone can define what they think the issue is from their view. Do not attempt to mute them. Express your view and allow others to do the same.


:???: :???: :???:

Not sure what ur problem is...I have not read anyone say, or even suggest that I attempted to mute them before you came on board.

If you have nothing to offer to the debate, pls move on...

No need to sound confused. You know what you have been doing ... You have been saying this person is wrong and that person is wrong because you think your opinion is 'superior' to them. E2 is just saying hear others out too instead of acting as if only your opinion count ...

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 Post subject: Re: SAYS ODEGBAMI
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:19 pm 
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Abbey wrote:
txj wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
txj wrote:
Its the world wide web in case you've forgotten. Everyone can and does express an opinion.


KPOM. And everyone can define what they think the issue is from their view. Do not attempt to mute them. Express your view and allow others to do the same.


:???: :???: :???:

Not sure what ur problem is...I have not read anyone say, or even suggest that I attempted to mute them before you came on board.

If you have nothing to offer to the debate, pls move on...

No need to sound confused. You know what you have been doing ... You have been saying this person is wrong and that person is wrong because you think your opinion is 'superior' to them. E2 is just saying hear others out too instead of acting as if only your opinion count ...


They also believe their opinions are superior to mine, and I accept their right to that.

If you guys have an actual opinion to offer, state it or move on...

_________________
Image
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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 Post subject: Re: SAYS ODEGBAMI
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:22 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:35 pm
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My impression from reading SO, is that the highlighted is precisely what he is talking about, hence his reference to Westerhof and Bonfrere.


Damunk wrote:
I'm not convinced there is much merit in Odegbami's analysis.
You've got to strike a balance between flair and tactical discipline but you cant have both operating maximally side by side.

Flair and creativity by definition entail doing the unconventional and if you have too many flair players in a team, you are in danger of losing your tactical discipline.
Making both work for you means there has to be compromise to some degree in both areas. Its a balancing act. Even Brazil have struggled to get it right.

Its we same Nigerians that will abuse the flair players at the end of the day: Our greatest two such players, JJ Okocha and King Kanu have both been widely and unfairly (IMHO) accused of being "unproductive" - by Nigerians!

IMHO, Iwobi, Moses, Mikel and Ebuehi are the four 'flair' players in the team right now. Capable of pulling out a moment of magic but I feel Moses and Mikel are too erratic and somewhat indisciplined (they do their own thing when they want to do it), while Iwobi and Ebuehi are still young and learning their trade.

IF THERE IS ONE WORD THAT HAS BEEN CONSISTENTLY USED TO DESCRIBE OUR TEAMS OVER THE DECADES, IT IS 'INDISCIPLINED' - which is the polite way of saying 'tactically naive'.
I hate it when I hear it but that isn't to say there is no merit whatsoever to the observation.

I have always believed national teams are an accurate reflection of it's people - forget where the players actually ply their trade. You usually kind of know what to expect depending on the country you are playing...the Germans, the Spanish, Argentinians, Italians, Koreans & Japanese, the Swedes, Mexicans, Icelanders, the English, Dutch and Russians.

We are no different.
Show me your national team and I will tell you who your people are.

Can anybody deny that Nigerian society is impatient, erratic, unpredictable, unruly and unconventional whilst at the same time can be creatively brilliant, fearless and aggressive?

Rohr is trying to bring some organisation to the Nigerian game. Whether he succeeds is another matter, but he now stands accused of totally destroying the "Nigerian style of play", whatever that means.
But when we did play this so-called 'Nigerian' style, how far did it really get us?

It only got us so far and it was the lack of discipline and focus that got us knocked out in both '94 (Italy) and '98 (Paraguay in what was for us a meaningless group match) and later, more crucially Denmark both in the second round of the WC.

Yes, we entertained the world with our unpredictable, fearless, swashbuckling style but it didn't take them very long to 'sus us out' and suddenly we were 'gone in 90 minutes'.
End of story. Come back next time.

Personally, I think the main issue with this team is inexperience. You just can't buy experience, or borrow it. Pinnick said it many many months ago - that the running joke in the NFF is that "this team is ready for 2022". I flagged this up a while back but few were really willing to consider that point and its implications for now.

If the fans' reaction after one game is anything to go by, then we are already on the path to doing what we have always done - sacking the coach and starting all over. I think that'll be about 22 coaches in 23 years. Its hard to keep track with Nigeria. We heavily criticise our leaders - and more specifically in this case, the NFF - of never having any foresight or long-term plans. But the average Naija fan does not have the stomach to stick out long-term planning. They want results...immediately.

The real test is on the real stage we are standing on right now - for our team but also for us the fans. The team is out there to face their fate and be held accountable in full view of the world. We the fans, on the other hand, are mostly faceless and nobody holds us accountable for anything. But we are failing the test spectacularly if our only reaction to adversity is to panic, rain abuse and 'get rid'.
That is so typically our Nigerian way of dealing with a challenge - the very things we love to criticise our 'clueless misleaders' of doing.

So for the sake of peace let's keep doing what we keep doing. Maybe one day we will get a different result.
But I say we hold our nerve and stick with this team (including Rohr), continue to nurture and build whatever the outcome of this WC.

We just can't afford to keep chopping and changing with every set-back.

Just my two kobo.

_________________
Image
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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