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metalalloy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:32 am 
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Bell wrote:
metalalloy wrote:
Bell wrote:
Following the Croatia loss, there were those who said it was too much to expect the SE to beat Croatia. Why? And they'd start throw out the name Modric repeatedly and a few others, telling us about the pedigree of the Croatian players and the top European clubs they play for. They'd contrast that with the SE players who play in "backwater leagues". Some of us argued that while that may be true, it shouldn't be taken too far, citing the case of Iceland. Well, Mexico just firmed up that point.

All the German players play in top European clubs so much so that the likes of Sane, a starter for most of the teams in Russia 18, couldn't get a place in the German squad. Meanwhile, some of the Mexican players earn their pay in the MLS. And perhaps their top player is a potential West Ham cast off. Most of them might not even find a spot in the German squad. But see what just happened.

So the message to the SE for the rest of this tournament is for the coach unleash the players and go for broke the next two matches. Let's see what happens. They shouldn't be overburdened with all kinds of schemes and formations. Let the guys play free.

Message to the US. I know there is a temptation to quickly go and hire the Mexican coach, a Colombian who has been having problems with the fans and FA. Remember what happened when the same emotional reaction led to the hiring of Klinsmann and we all know what happened. It's not about the coach; it's about the talent on the field and their heart.
Bell



It's not that easy. This Mexican team has been together with their coach since 2015 and has a well established style of play and lot more vets than we have on our team. We have a good set of players who are not yet playing like a team yet. its something that will come with time. Imploding the team is not the answer


TYPICAL NIGERIAN REACTION

It may work for others, below and above Nigeria, but Nigeria always happens to be in that SWEET spot where it can't work.
Bell


I really am trying hard to avoid the puerile degeneration into insults instead of simply debating a topic that you started. I actually thought you are capable of discussing with your head forgive me for making the assumption . Where in my post did i say that it would not work for Nigeria?

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We have been brainwashed by the Premier League that it's the best in the world. Nonsense. It's the best brand
Roy Keane: ITV 02/25/14

He says that we are currently "brainwashed" into believing that the Premier League is the best competition in the world, and that we are now a long way off dominating the Champions League again.
Gary Neville: Mirror: 12/23/14

I think Spain’s by far the best league.
Scholes. UK Guardian 9/6/16
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kolinzo
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:45 am 
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Mentalgoat being served once again!

Anyway, Bell, MLS is head and shoulder above the backwarter leagues in Europe. MLS is head and shoulder above Chinese league. Please shine your eyes and give MLS the respect it deserves. Liga MX is about right there with any of the European league so don't be fooled by the WC argument. Liga Mx no be moin moin league o! They are skilled. The thing is, Mexican players just don't like going abroad because they have a functioning league back home. Mexico have shown time and time again that they can rub shoulders with the best of them all. You can't compare Naija (or any African team for that matter) to Mexico.

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metalalloy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 2:53 am 
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Waffiman wrote:
metalalloy wrote:
Bell wrote:
Following the Croatia loss, there were those who said it was too much to expect the SE to beat Croatia. Why? And they'd start throw out the name Modric repeatedly and a few others, telling us about the pedigree of the Croatian players and the top European clubs they play for. They'd contrast that with the SE players who play in "backwater leagues". Some of us argued that while that may be true, it shouldn't be taken too far, citing the case of Iceland. Well, Mexico just firmed up that point.

All the German players play in top European clubs so much so that the likes of Sane, a starter for most of the teams in Russia 18, couldn't get a place in the German squad. Meanwhile, some of the Mexican players earn their pay in the MLS. And perhaps their top player is a potential West Ham cast off. Most of them might not even find a spot in the German squad. But see what just happened.

So the message to the SE for the rest of this tournament is for the coach unleash the players and go for broke the next two matches. Let's see what happens. They shouldn't be overburdened with all kinds of schemes and formations. Let the guys play free.

Message to the US. I know there is a temptation to quickly go and hire the Mexican coach, a Colombian who has been having problems with the fans and FA. Remember what happened when the same emotional reaction led to the hiring of Klinsmann and we all know what happened. It's not about the coach; it's about the talent on the field and their heart.
Bell



It's not that easy. This Mexican team has been together with their coach since 2015 and has a well established style of play and lot more vets than we have on our team. We have a good set of players who are not yet playing like a team yet. its something that will come with time. Imploding the team is not the answer


They have a league which developed players, we don't.

Besides, we have beaten Top European nations in the WC.


I don't know the breakdown of how many of their players were developed in their league, however, a majority of the players on their 23 man squad play outside of Mexico. The fact that most of them have been together for the past 3 years with the same coach can not be understated, which is the point that i made above that was apparently too dense for some folk to grasp. Osorio is a coach that was retained after a 7-0 hammering by Chile, something that would never happen in Nigeria. This is the FOURTH tournament under the same coach (Copa America, Gold Cup, Confederations cup and now the World Cup). How many games has Rohr coached Nigeria? How may tournaments? We are NOT similarly situated with Mexico.

Anyone who has seen any team that Rohr has coached would know he is ultra conservative. He had Gabon playing 5-4-1. Anyone expecting Rohr to have his players "go for broke" is just setting himself for unnecessary heartbreak. It will not happen.

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We have been brainwashed by the Premier League that it's the best in the world. Nonsense. It's the best brand
Roy Keane: ITV 02/25/14

He says that we are currently "brainwashed" into believing that the Premier League is the best competition in the world, and that we are now a long way off dominating the Champions League again.
Gary Neville: Mirror: 12/23/14

I think Spain’s by far the best league.
Scholes. UK Guardian 9/6/16


Last edited by metalalloy on Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:01 am, edited 1 time in total.

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metalalloy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:00 am 
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kolinzo wrote:
Mentalgoat being served once again!

Anyway, Bell, MLS is head and shoulder above the backwarter leagues in Europe. MLS is head and shoulder above Chinese league. Please shine your eyes and give MLS the respect it deserves. Liga MX is about right there with any of the European league so don't be fooled by the WC argument. Liga Mx no be moin moin league o! They are skilled. The thing is, Mexican players just don't like going abroad because they have a functioning league back home. Mexico have shown time and time again that they can rub shoulders with the best of them all. You can't compare Naija (or any African team for that matter) to Mexico.


Highlighting how dumb you are is almost like shooting fish in a barrel. :lol: :lol:
Quote:
Mexico

Goalkeepers: Guillermo Ochoa (Standard Liege), Alfredo Talavera (Toluca), Jesus Corona (Cruz Azul).

Defenders: Carlos Salcedo (Eintracht Frankfurt), Diego Reyes (Porto), Hector Moreno (Real Sociedad), Hugo Ayala (Tigres), Edson Alvarez (America), Jesus Gallardo (Monterrey), Miguel Layun (Sevilla).

Midfielders: Rafael Marquez (Atlas), Hector Herrera (Porto), Jonathan Dos Santos (LA Galaxy), Giovani Dos Santos (LA Galaxy), Andres Guardado (Real Betis), Marco Fabian (Eintracht Frankfurt).

Forwards: Javier Hernandez (West Ham), Raul Jimenez (Benfica), Oribe Peralta (America), Jesus Manuel Corona (Porto), Carlos Vela (Los Angeles FC), Javier Aquino (Tigres), Hirving Lozano (PSV Eindhoven).


Mexico must be one real big country to accommodate all these highlighted teams in their league :roll:

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We have been brainwashed by the Premier League that it's the best in the world. Nonsense. It's the best brand
Roy Keane: ITV 02/25/14

He says that we are currently "brainwashed" into believing that the Premier League is the best competition in the world, and that we are now a long way off dominating the Champions League again.
Gary Neville: Mirror: 12/23/14

I think Spain’s by far the best league.
Scholes. UK Guardian 9/6/16
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metalalloy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:10 am 
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Bell wrote:
metalalloy wrote:
Bell wrote:
cchinukw wrote:
Thank you jare.


I'M THINKING...

...the new Rohr contract should be allowed to run its course, if he wants to stay. This should give Pinnick and his crew ample time to do a total re-evaluation of Nigerian soccer with only one purpose in mind: take it to the next level. It gives them time to identify and acquire the next set of NIGERIAN coaches for all the teams (men/women, senior/junior) do what it takes to prepare them for the job. It's commonly acknowledged that Pinnick has done much in other areas but nothing can seal his legacy more that freeing Nigeria of its mindless dependence on foreign coaches. Let it be noted here that Pinnick has seemingly has a blind spot when it comes to respect of things European.
Bell


This would be great in theory, but if someone with the pedigree of Keshi did not get respect from the Nigerian football establishment, i cant see this ever working.[size=200] Its not just the coaches that have to change[/size].




IF I READ YOU CORRECTLY...


...you're saying Nigeria might as well stop any effort at progress because nothing can work, correct?
Bell


I clearly said that you have to change more than just the coaches to achieve for your plan to have a shot at succeeding, and cited Keshi's battles inspite of his pedigree that he earned via winning the ANC and yet failed as an example.

You people and this stupid FC/LC argument just clouds your ability to use your brains. You just take a position and hang on for dear life. :roll:

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We have been brainwashed by the Premier League that it's the best in the world. Nonsense. It's the best brand
Roy Keane: ITV 02/25/14

He says that we are currently "brainwashed" into believing that the Premier League is the best competition in the world, and that we are now a long way off dominating the Champions League again.
Gary Neville: Mirror: 12/23/14

I think Spain’s by far the best league.
Scholes. UK Guardian 9/6/16
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Gotti
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:13 am 
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Bell wrote:
Following the Croatia loss, there were those who said it was too much to expect the SE to beat Croatia. Why? And they'd start throw out the name Modric repeatedly and a few others, telling us about the pedigree of the Croatian players and the top European clubs they play for. They'd contrast that with the SE players who play in "backwater leagues". Some of us argued that while that may be true, it shouldn't be taken too far, citing the case of Iceland. Well, Mexico just firmed up that point.

All the German players play in top European clubs so much so that the likes of Sane, a starter for most of the teams in Russia 18, couldn't get a place in the German squad. Meanwhile, some of the Mexican players earn their pay in the MLS. And perhaps their top player is a potential West Ham cast off. Most of them might not even find a spot in the German squad. But see what just happened.

So the message to the SE for the rest of this tournament is for the coach unleash the players and go for broke the next two matches. Let's see what happens. They shouldn't be overburdened with all kinds of schemes and formations. Let the guys play free.

Message to the US. I know there is a temptation to quickly go and hire the Mexican coach, a Colombian who has been having problems with the fans and FA. Remember what happened when the same emotional reaction led to the hiring of Klinsmann and we all know what happened. It's not about the coach; it's about the talent on the field and their heart.
Bell

Bros, why don't you just go ahead and call out JOHN-the-Alleged-Agent-Hunter... :lol:

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sayala
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:32 am 
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This thread is misleading. Pedigree is the most important factor in a world cup. The team with better players will win 70% of the time. So far only Mexico has achieved a real upset.

This is true in every world cup. A big team will lose to a small team every now and then but eventually they bounce back. In 1982, Germany lost their opener to Algeria but ended up reaching the final whereas Algeria did not go far. In 1990, Argentina lost to Cameroun in their opener but ended up reaching the final.

Germany might still go further than Mexico in this WC.
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metalalloy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:37 am 
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sayala wrote:
This thread is misleading. Pedigree is the most important factor in a world cup. The team with better players will win 70% of the time. So far only Mexico has achieved a real upset.

This is true in every world cup. A big team will lose to a small team every now and then but eventually they bounce back. In 1982, Germany lost their opener to Algeria but ended up reaching the final whereas Algeria did not go far. In 1990, Argentina lost to Cameroun in their opener but ended up reaching the final.

Germany might still go further than Mexico in this WC.


True, but the point of the thread is to discuss the approach that an underdog on paper should take entering a game of this nature.

_________________
We have been brainwashed by the Premier League that it's the best in the world. Nonsense. It's the best brand
Roy Keane: ITV 02/25/14

He says that we are currently "brainwashed" into believing that the Premier League is the best competition in the world, and that we are now a long way off dominating the Champions League again.
Gary Neville: Mirror: 12/23/14

I think Spain’s by far the best league.
Scholes. UK Guardian 9/6/16
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Gotti
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:46 am 
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sayala wrote:
This thread is misleading. Pedigree is the most important factor in a world cup. The team with better players will win 70% of the time. So far only Mexico has achieved a real upset.

This is true in every world cup. A big team will lose to a small team every now and then but eventually they bounce back. In 1982, Germany lost their opener to Algeria but ended up reaching the final whereas Algeria did not go far. In 1990, Argentina lost to Cameroun in their opener but ended up reaching the final.

Germany might still go further than Mexico in this WC.

Who cares about all that crap...
You only need to beat the 11 dudes in front of you ONCE!

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Kneedeep
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:54 am 
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sayala wrote:
This thread is misleading. Pedigree is the most important factor in a world cup. The team with better players will win 70% of the time. So far only Mexico has achieved a real upset.

This is true in every world cup. A big team will lose to a small team every now and then but eventually they bounce back. In 1982, Germany lost their opener to Algeria but ended up reaching the final whereas Algeria did not go far. In 1990, Argentina lost to Cameroun in their opener but ended up reaching the final.

Germany might still go further than Mexico in this WC.


There's a difference in this WC, VAR and tech. It'll negate some(not all) of the bias in favor of the "better" teams. The chance of "hand of God" or Neuer picking the ball out of the net and booting it out like nothing happened is close to 0.
As Ekong found out yesterday even normal king-kong moves have the cloud of replay hanging over the ref who might in the past have let it slide.

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Bell
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:30 am 
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metalalloy wrote:
Bell wrote:
metalalloy wrote:
Bell wrote:
Following the Croatia loss, there were those who said it was too much to expect the SE to beat Croatia. Why? And they'd start throw out the name Modric repeatedly and a few others, telling us about the pedigree of the Croatian players and the top European clubs they play for. They'd contrast that with the SE players who play in "backwater leagues". Some of us argued that while that may be true, it shouldn't be taken too far, citing the case of Iceland. Well, Mexico just firmed up that point.

All the German players play in top European clubs so much so that the likes of Sane, a starter for most of the teams in Russia 18, couldn't get a place in the German squad. Meanwhile, some of the Mexican players earn their pay in the MLS. And perhaps their top player is a potential West Ham cast off. Most of them might not even find a spot in the German squad. But see what just happened.

So the message to the SE for the rest of this tournament is for the coach unleash the players and go for broke the next two matches. Let's see what happens. They shouldn't be overburdened with all kinds of schemes and formations. Let the guys play free.

Message to the US. I know there is a temptation to quickly go and hire the Mexican coach, a Colombian who has been having problems with the fans and FA. Remember what happened when the same emotional reaction led to the hiring of Klinsmann and we all know what happened. It's not about the coach; it's about the talent on the field and their heart.
Bell



It's not that easy. This Mexican team has been together with their coach since 2015 and has a well established style of play and lot more vets than we have on our team. We have a good set of players who are not yet playing like a team yet. its something that will come with time. Imploding the team is not the answer


TYPICAL NIGERIAN REACTION

It may work for others, below and above Nigeria, but Nigeria always happens to be in that SWEET spot where it can't work.
Bell


I really am trying hard to avoid the puerile degeneration into insults instead of simply debating a topic that you started. I actually thought you are capable of discussing with your head forgive me for making the assumption . Where in my post did i say that it would not work for Nigeria?


I'M SORRY YOU QUICKLY JUMPED TO THE CONCLUSION THAT I INSULTED YOU, BECAUSE...

...if you review my posts in this site randomly you'd be hard pressed to find me insulting another poster. And what I said cannot be seen as insulting: I simply said your post was typical of the kind of reactions I see here commonly. How's that an insult? One can't disagree with you anymore? You didn't say it wouldn't work for Nigeria in so many words but I think you implied it when you said the Mexican coach had been in a place since 2015. I think a reasonable is that it may not work as easily for Nigeria since Rohr had not been in place that long. I think that's a fair assumption to make but if you see that as an insult I tender my apologies.
Bell

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Bell
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:41 am 
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HERE AGAIN, SWITZERLAND HAS JUST HELD BRAZIL TO A DRAW


Who would have thought it. How many of the Swiss players have jobs with the top clubs of the world? How many of the Swiss players would be good enough to make the Brazilian squad? Just what I said: it's not about pedigree, stupid. I hope there's enough for Rohr and the players to believe they are not inferior to Argentina. Let Russia 2018 become the revolt of the little guy.
Bell

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kali
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 8:42 am 
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Bell all teams have access to data. It's made small teams more competitive by figuring out how to defend big teams and how to exploit their weakness. Notice how Iceland quickly scored against Argentina and kept Messi out of his favorite shooting spots.
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metalalloy
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:06 pm 
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Bell wrote:

I'M SORRY YOU QUICKLY JUMPED TO THE CONCLUSION THAT I INSULTED YOU, BECAUSE...

...if you review my posts in this site randomly you'd be hard pressed to find me insulting another poster. And what I said cannot be seen as insulting: I simply said your post was typical of the kind of reactions I see here commonly. How's that an insult? One can't disagree with you anymore? You didn't say it wouldn't work for Nigeria in so many words but I think you implied it when you said the Mexican coach had been in a place since 2015. I think a reasonable is that it may not work as easily for Nigeria since Rohr had not been in place that long. I think that's a fair assumption to make but if you see that as an insult I tender my apologies.
Bell



Thank you for the clarification. And please, the site is for debate and I welcome people who disagree with me as the best way to learn is to read a well thought out opposing POV. I took offense to the statement that it was the "typical Nigerian response" because it really isn't.

The highlighted was just the point that i was trying to make that while i agree with you that Rohr needs to loosen up some of the constraints and let the team be a more adventurous, i don't think he can approach the game the way the Mexican coach did due to the fact that he hasn't quite figured out his team yet.

_________________
We have been brainwashed by the Premier League that it's the best in the world. Nonsense. It's the best brand
Roy Keane: ITV 02/25/14

He says that we are currently "brainwashed" into believing that the Premier League is the best competition in the world, and that we are now a long way off dominating the Champions League again.
Gary Neville: Mirror: 12/23/14

I think Spain’s by far the best league.
Scholes. UK Guardian 9/6/16
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mcal
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 12:24 pm 
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...good from the OP. We tend to cast off our guys as not in the big league, just as Sunday Mba was torn to pieces after he heroically led us to ANC triumph way back.
Anyway, a player or players with heart will win you matches, yesterday's win by Mexico vs mighty defending champions Germany, plus lowly stacked Swiss vs the mighty Brazilians showed how to take on an opponent.
My 2 kobo.
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wiseone
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:38 pm 
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Key difference: Mexico had a precise tactical plan and executed it brilliantly. They had Vela standing almost on top of Kroos and following him around - preventing Germany from building attacks and momentum from deep (as Kroos usually does for them). It takes a lot of dedication and discipline to convince an attacker like Vela to basically do a man marking job on the opposition's DM. That speaks to Vela's willingness to do dirty work for his team and Mexico's willingness to execute their coach's tactical plan to the letter.
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GREENWHITEGREEN
PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:40 pm 
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kolinzo wrote:
Mentalgoat being served once again!

Anyway, Bell, MLS is head and shoulder above the backwarter leagues in Europe. MLS is head and shoulder above Chinese league. Please shine your eyes and give MLS the respect it deserves. Liga MX is about right there with any of the European league so don't be fooled by the WC argument. Liga Mx no be moin moin league o! They are skilled. The thing is, Mexican players just don't like going abroad because they have a functioning league back home. Mexico have shown time and time again that they can rub shoulders with the best of them all. You can't compare Naija (or any African team for that matter) to Mexico.


Funny thing is that during the Kanu, Oliseh, and Okocha years,. I remember many of my Mexicans friends and acquaintances teling me how much they loved and feared us. Times have changed. We have succeeded in producing a generation of football illiterates.

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