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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:40 pm 
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zee wrote:
My man this is not lawn tennis or individual sports, it is a team sport.
Tell me which ONE Mexican player that will make Germany's 23 man squad or any Swiss player that will make Brazil's .........300 man squad.
Club you play for my foot......

Nna, read b/4 you argue. This is the point in dispute:
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It was based on the fact Croatia had better individual players based on clubs etc.

We are talking about individual players!

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:42 pm 
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cic old boy wrote:
Croatia have better players than us. I can't think of any Nigerian player (maybe Vic Mo) who would make the Barca/Madrid squad.

Yes, the club you play for is an indicator of quality.

Croatia having better players is a fact... drilling that in the mindset of player making an international tournament debut is bad psychology.

I remember an F1 race, where Robert Kubica was about to start a race and his radio person (i have forgotten the F1 term used) said something which was to make him inferior and Robert replied please don't put negative thought in my head.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 3:42 pm 
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cic old boy wrote:
marutimon wrote:

The path for an African player is much longer and more prone to dissapointment. Also players like Rakitic and Modric had constant club support in development since a young age. African players are bought on the cheap and as disposable players, there is little margin for error.

Take Kelechi Nwakali and his stalled career due to the mistake of signing for a club, who can't play him.

Ndidi went from an academy in Nigeria to Genk, 2 years at Genk and he is at Leicester. Probably a similar path as Rakitic - Basel, Schalke, Sevilla, Barca. Similar to Sadio Mane - 2 years each at Metz, Red Bull, Southampton, Liverpool. Good African players break through. It is the average ones that struggle.


Sometime ago, I read an interview of Weah I think, who lamented the calibre of players from Africa who were not as lucky as him to breakthrough.

Similarities in playing culture and superior foundational development place European and S. American players at an advantage...

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We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 4:02 pm 
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It's very important that we do not completely swallow the eurocentric view that if my players play for better clubs than yours, then I have superior players, which means I have a superior team, and which means I will ultimately triumph; which means you have to play me with 'respect'.

Peeps should go read JJ Okocha's comments on the influence of the kind of manager you have on a players chances of growth. Why would a player of JJ's abilities end up in Bolton Wanderers? Or look at Chidi Nwanu's experiences in Belgium and how recognition came so late for him, and grudgingly, in spite of being one of the top CDs in Belgium across multiple seasons...

Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying this Nigerian team is good, or that our players are world class. They are NOT!

But not because of their resumes. But because by our own standards of top Nigerian players, many of these players do not measure up.

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We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:47 pm 
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txj wrote:

Not true. There are external factors that impact the Nigerian player that sometimes (not always) mean good players never come out of such backwater leagues. Poor coaching for one; environment, etc.

Not based on the history of players who have gone from the domestic game to Europe. Chris Nwosu is a clear example; Look at Nwakali atm

The international transfer market is not a very efficient distributor for talented Nigerian players, as the economic situation of these players mean they take whatever is available...There are too many factors outside of football that nonetheless impact this.

You are contradicting yourself. If you suffer from poor coaching, the end product is you become a player that's not good enough. That said, the very good players still get to the top despite the poor coaching. What sort coaching did Kanu, West, Finidi, Ndidi and co get in Nigeria?

Nwakali is in his situation b/c he is not good enough.

Even when your economic situation lands you in a bad situation, your talent should bail you out. The ones stuck in the backwaters are there b/c that is their level.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:49 pm 
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txj wrote:
Sometime ago, I read an interview of Weah I think, who lamented the calibre of players from Africa who were not as lucky as him to breakthrough.

Similarities in playing culture and superior foundational development place European and S. American players at an advantage...

Things are different now from when Weah broke through. The world isn't standing still. There is no Weah hiding somewhere in Africa right now.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:50 pm 
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Goalgetter wrote:
Guys we all saw a clip of Pinnick talking to the boys on the eve of the Croatia match - he talked about the Nigerian spirit, bravery etc. But it looks like he (Pinnick) hired a coach (Rhor) that doesn’t buy into or at least understand th Nigerian way of thinking - bravery etc. if Rhor did he wouldn’t be harping about our FIFa ranking (knowing fully well that the ranking is very Eurocentric). He wouldn’t be making statements about how Croatian players play for big clubs. He wouldn’t say a team of professional footballers are at the world cup to learn, instead of compete like everyone else there. Something is fundamentally wrong guys. What is Pinnick saying about the coach’s comments and attitude? The guy comes across as a typical old-school Eurocentric German who belongs to the school of thought that the African man is always inferior. He will cite FIFA ranking and Euro quarterfinals appearance after a loss to Iceland. The Argentina match is a forgone conclusion. Clearly Nigeria’s World Cup ended before the players even set foot on the field.


does nigerian mindset reflect the world mindset; amazing it took you entire 2 days to conjure up this one

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:57 pm 
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What is the Nigerian mindset?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 5:59 pm 
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txj wrote:
It's very important that we do not completely swallow the eurocentric view that if my players play for better clubs than yours, then I have superior players, which means I have a superior team, and which means I will ultimately triumph; which means you have to play me with 'respect'.

Peeps should go read JJ Okocha's comments on the influence of the kind of manager you have on a players chances of growth. Why would a player of JJ's abilities end up in Bolton Wanderers? Or look at Chidi Nwanu's experiences in Belgium and how recognition came so late for him, and grudgingly, in spite of being one of the top CDs in Belgium across multiple seasons...

Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying this Nigerian team is good, or that our players are world class. They are NOT!

But not because of their resumes. But because by our own standards of top Nigerian players, many of these players do not measure up.

Whether you like it or not, football follows the money and the money is in Europe. So football has become "eurocentric". This is where the best players and the best football is played, regardless of how you feel about the issue. The reality is that the best clubs buy the best players. So if you are at a top club, you are among the best.

Many years ago, it was different. Pele stayed with Santos at his peak. Now he would have been at Madrid/Barca.

You keep banging on about over 20 years ago as if the world has stood still so that your theory can hold water. Today, it won't take long for a player half as good as Nwanu to get to the Bundesliga or EPL. English football was suspicious of all foreigners b/4 the EPL was formed in 1992. And it took about 10 years afterward for it to go truly global.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:00 pm 
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cic old boy wrote:
txj wrote:
Sometime ago, I read an interview of Weah I think, who lamented the calibre of players from Africa who were not as lucky as him to breakthrough.

Similarities in playing culture and superior foundational development place European and S. American players at an advantage...

Things are different now from when Weah broke through. The world isn't standing still. There is no Weah hiding somewhere in Africa right now.


How do you know that?

True the world isn't standing still, but the factors that impact the careers of our players are even more acute today than in the past.

By the eurocentric analogy which you support, a Nigerian team composed predominantly of home based players is automatically of lower quality than its european counterpart...

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We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:08 pm 
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txj wrote:

How do you know that?

True the world isn't standing still, but the factors that impact the careers of our players are even more acute today than in the past.

By the eurocentric analogy which you support, a Nigerian team composed predominantly of home based players is automatically of lower quality than its european counterpart...

Anyone with a quarter of Weah's talent would be in Europe in the blink of an eye. I have told you that European clubs are not run like the NFF. A Weah is like a $200m player. Belgian, French, Dutch and English clubs like the Arse have networks spread across Africa trying to strike gold.

Chances of being seen are greater than when Weah was playing. The world is now a village. I have been sent clips of players in the Ivorien league via Whatsapp. Those guys are still there b/c they are not good enough.

Anyone playing in the Nigerian league for more than 6 months is doing so b/c he can't get to Europe. And that's primarily b/c he is not good enough.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:11 pm 
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cic old boy wrote:
txj wrote:
It's very important that we do not completely swallow the eurocentric view that if my players play for better clubs than yours, then I have superior players, which means I have a superior team, and which means I will ultimately triumph; which means you have to play me with 'respect'.

Peeps should go read JJ Okocha's comments on the influence of the kind of manager you have on a players chances of growth. Why would a player of JJ's abilities end up in Bolton Wanderers? Or look at Chidi Nwanu's experiences in Belgium and how recognition came so late for him, and grudgingly, in spite of being one of the top CDs in Belgium across multiple seasons...

Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying this Nigerian team is good, or that our players are world class. They are NOT!

But not because of their resumes. But because by our own standards of top Nigerian players, many of these players do not measure up.

Whether you like it or not, football follows the money and the money is in Europe. So football has become "eurocentric". This is where the best players and the best football is played, regardless of how you feel about the issue. The reality is that the best clubs buy the best players. So if you are at a top club, you are among the best.

Many years ago, it was different. Pele stayed with Santos at his peak. Now he would have been at Madrid/Barca.

You keep banging on about over 20 years ago as if the world has stood still so that your theory can hold water. Today, it won't take long for a player half as good as Nwanu to get to the Bundesliga or EPL. English football was suspicious of all foreigners b/4 the EPL was formed in 1992. And it took about 10 years afterward for it to go truly global.


The fundamental issues have not changed from 20yrs ago.

The managers who saw Okocha simply from the perspective of his 'tricks' are all still in the game. How to interpret the spontaneity of the African player is as central today as it was in JJ's time.

Nwakali whose talent was crystal clear among his peers is stuck in the 2nd division of the Dutch league. In the absence of a high quality league in Nigeria, he has to rely on several things he cannot control to break thru- favorable transfer to the right club, a manager who believes in him, ability to adjust to a foreign environ, including weather, language, living alone, etc

Were he in a Nigerian league that is functioning at a high level, he would be closer to the top of his abilities than anything he is able to produce from Div 2 in Holland.

And there are even better talents in Nigeria whose pathway is even worse...

The EPL that has gone global is also the one with West Ham's director of football!!!

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We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


Last edited by txj on Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:16 pm 
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cic old boy wrote:
txj wrote:

How do you know that?

True the world isn't standing still, but the factors that impact the careers of our players are even more acute today than in the past.

By the eurocentric analogy which you support, a Nigerian team composed predominantly of home based players is automatically of lower quality than its european counterpart...

Anyone with a quarter of Weah's talent would be in Europe in the blink of an eye. I have told you that European clubs are not run like the NFF. A Weah is like a $200m player. Belgian, French, Dutch and English clubs like the Arse have networks spread across Africa trying to strike gold.

Chances of being seen are greater than when Weah was playing. The world is now a village. I have been sent clips of players in the Ivorien league via Whatsapp. Those guys are still there b/c they are not good enough.

Anyone playing in the Nigerian league for more than 6 months is doing so b/c he can't get to Europe. And that's primarily b/c he is not good enough.



I think some of us have been away for too long. The highlighted is far from the truth.

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Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:17 pm 
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txj wrote:
cic old boy wrote:
txj wrote:
It's very important that we do not completely swallow the eurocentric view that if my players play for better clubs than yours, then I have superior players, which means I have a superior team, and which means I will ultimately triumph; which means you have to play me with 'respect'.

Peeps should go read JJ Okocha's comments on the influence of the kind of manager you have on a players chances of growth. Why would a player of JJ's abilities end up in Bolton Wanderers? Or look at Chidi Nwanu's experiences in Belgium and how recognition came so late for him, and grudgingly, in spite of being one of the top CDs in Belgium across multiple seasons...

Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying this Nigerian team is good, or that our players are world class. They are NOT!

But not because of their resumes. But because by our own standards of top Nigerian players, many of these players do not measure up.

Whether you like it or not, football follows the money and the money is in Europe. So football has become "eurocentric". This is where the best players and the best football is played, regardless of how you feel about the issue. The reality is that the best clubs buy the best players. So if you are at a top club, you are among the best.

Many years ago, it was different. Pele stayed with Santos at his peak. Now he would have been at Madrid/Barca.

You keep banging on about over 20 years ago as if the world has stood still so that your theory can hold water. Today, it won't take long for a player half as good as Nwanu to get to the Bundesliga or EPL. English football was suspicious of all foreigners b/4 the EPL was formed in 1992. And it took about 10 years afterward for it to go truly global.


The fundamental issues have not changed from 20yrs ago.

Nwakali whose talent was crystal clear among his peers is stuck in the 2nd division of the Dutch league. In the absence of a high quality league in Nigeria, he has to rely on several things he cannot control to break thru- favorable transfer to the right club, a manager who believes in him, ability to adjust to a foreign environ, including weather, language, living alone, etc

Were he in a Nigerian league that is functioning at a high level, he would be closer to the top of his abilities than anything he is able to produce from Div 2 in Holland.

And there are even better talents in Nigeria whose pathway is even worse...

The EPL that has gone global is also the one with West Ham's director of football!!!


You nailed. Without a fuctioning NPFL that can support a living wage the exodus will continue and these boys will go to seat on the bench in Div 2 & 3 overseas often because they don't play the European way. Mexico just trashed Germany playing Mexico brand of football because the players are mostly playing in Mexico. Brazilian players playing mostly in Europe drew 1: 1 with Sitzerland.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:25 pm 
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This cic old boy is suffering from a "about to die" crisis, what is wrong with him? dude you are just typing just to type, you don't believe any of the garbage you are spewing on here. You need to go take your pills man, something is wrong with you in your head DAMN. :cry: :sad:


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:26 pm 
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This cic old boy clown is suffering from a "about to die" crisis, what is wrong with him? dude you are just typing just to type, you don't believe any of the garbage you are spewing on here. You need to go take your pills man, something is wrong with you in your head DAMN. :cry: :sad:


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:27 pm 
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oscar52 wrote:
txj wrote:
cic old boy wrote:
txj wrote:
It's very important that we do not completely swallow the eurocentric view that if my players play for better clubs than yours, then I have superior players, which means I have a superior team, and which means I will ultimately triumph; which means you have to play me with 'respect'.

Peeps should go read JJ Okocha's comments on the influence of the kind of manager you have on a players chances of growth. Why would a player of JJ's abilities end up in Bolton Wanderers? Or look at Chidi Nwanu's experiences in Belgium and how recognition came so late for him, and grudgingly, in spite of being one of the top CDs in Belgium across multiple seasons...

Don't get me wrong; I'm not saying this Nigerian team is good, or that our players are world class. They are NOT!

But not because of their resumes. But because by our own standards of top Nigerian players, many of these players do not measure up.

Whether you like it or not, football follows the money and the money is in Europe. So football has become "eurocentric". This is where the best players and the best football is played, regardless of how you feel about the issue. The reality is that the best clubs buy the best players. So if you are at a top club, you are among the best.

Many years ago, it was different. Pele stayed with Santos at his peak. Now he would have been at Madrid/Barca.

You keep banging on about over 20 years ago as if the world has stood still so that your theory can hold water. Today, it won't take long for a player half as good as Nwanu to get to the Bundesliga or EPL. English football was suspicious of all foreigners b/4 the EPL was formed in 1992. And it took about 10 years afterward for it to go truly global.


The fundamental issues have not changed from 20yrs ago.

Nwakali whose talent was crystal clear among his peers is stuck in the 2nd division of the Dutch league. In the absence of a high quality league in Nigeria, he has to rely on several things he cannot control to break thru- favorable transfer to the right club, a manager who believes in him, ability to adjust to a foreign environ, including weather, language, living alone, etc

Were he in a Nigerian league that is functioning at a high level, he would be closer to the top of his abilities than anything he is able to produce from Div 2 in Holland.

And there are even better talents in Nigeria whose pathway is even worse...

The EPL that has gone global is also the one with West Ham's director of football!!!


You nailed. Without a fuctioning NPFL that can support a living wage the exodus will continue and these boys will go to seat on the bench in Div 2 & 3 overseas often because they don't play the European way. Mexico just trashed Germany playing Mexico brand of football because the players are mostly playing in Mexico. Brazilian players playing mostly in Europe drew 1: 1 with Sitzerland.


The highlighted is incorrect.

Osorio in an interview specifically spoke about his complete faith in the traditional technical qualities of the mexican player.

The difference between his mindset and our coachs' is what they identify as the strengths of their teams and their approach to maximizing this.

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We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 6:39 pm 
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cic old boy wrote:
txj wrote:

How do you know that?

True the world isn't standing still, but the factors that impact the careers of our players are even more acute today than in the past.

By the eurocentric analogy which you support, a Nigerian team composed predominantly of home based players is automatically of lower quality than its european counterpart...

Anyone with a quarter of Weah's talent would be in Europe in the blink of an eye. I have told you that European clubs are not run like the NFF. A Weah is like a $200m player. Belgian, French, Dutch and English clubs like the Arse have networks spread across Africa trying to strike gold.

Chances of being seen are greater than when Weah was playing. The world is now a village. I have been sent clips of players in the Ivorien league via Whatsapp. Those guys are still there b/c they are not good enough.

Anyone playing in the Nigerian league for more than 6 months is doing so b/c he can't get to Europe. And that's primarily b/c he is not good enough.


cic,

You give great credit to the scouting system. Bros, the scouting system is not as efficient or as effective as you may assume anywhere in the world, let alone scouting African talent in Africa. There are many factors that determine which club a player gets to in Europe. Nigerian players, primarily, are not seeking to play for the "best" club. Their first goal is to earn a living. Take the current signing of Etebo by Stoke. Do you think that an English player of the same talent would make that same move? Note also that players seeking to play in Europe would often have to be far better than their European counterparts to be signed on. It is really difficult to list several factors here but one thing for sure is that the scouting and recruitment is less efficient than we may think in spite of the increased accessibility to data.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:21 pm 
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The question is why such few Nigerians play at top clubs compared to the output. After all at a point we had West at Inter, Oliseh at Juvenile and Amunike at Barca as well as JJ at PSG. The Nigerian factor obviously. Corruption has pervaded Nigerian selection processes from forged ages to bribes to play. The talent is not allowed to flow through.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 7:35 pm 
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kali wrote:
The question is why such few Nigerians play at top clubs compared to the output. After all at a point we had West at Inter, Oliseh at Juvenile and Amunike at Barca as well as JJ at PSG. The Nigerian factor obviously. Corruption has pervaded Nigerian selection processes from forged ages to bribes to play. The talent is not allowed to flow through.

In fairness to Nigeria, football worldwide has a lot of corrupt practises.

The only difference are the measures that excellent FA bodies implement to avoid being overwhemed by the problem.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:22 pm 
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txj wrote:
The fundamental issues have not changed from 20yrs ago.

The managers who saw Okocha simply from the perspective of his 'tricks' are all still in the game. How to interpret the spontaneity of the African player is as central today as it was in JJ's time.

Nwakali whose talent was crystal clear among his peers is stuck in the 2nd division of the Dutch league. In the absence of a high quality league in Nigeria, he has to rely on several things he cannot control to break thru- favorable transfer to the right club, a manager who believes in him, ability to adjust to a foreign environ, including weather, language, living alone, etc

Were he in a Nigerian league that is functioning at a high level, he would be closer to the top of his abilities than anything he is able to produce from Div 2 in Holland.

And there are even better talents in Nigeria whose pathway is even worse...

The EPL that has gone global is also the one with West Ham's director of football!!!

The fundamentals have changed. There are more Africans in the big leagues and perspectives have changed. Even dinosaurs like Pardew and Pulis sign Africans.

Nwakali is where he is b/c he is not good enough. Mikel went to Norway over 10 years ago. See how that panned out in less than two years. Our problem is we overhype average players. I don't want to go into looking good with youth football "peers". That would open another debate.

This belief that there are Okochas hiding in Nigeria is just fantasy.

Even if West Ham don't want to sign Africans, there are others in England, France, Germany, Belgium etc looking for cheap talent. The Weah you talk about opened doors for Africans - so much so that Ali Dia, claiming to be his cousin got signed by Southampton and turned out to be shite.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:34 pm 
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Goalgetter wrote:
Guys we all saw a clip of Pinnick talking to the boys on the eve of the Croatia match - he talked about the Nigerian spirit, bravery etc. But it looks like he (Pinnick) hired a coach (Rhor) that doesn’t buy into or at least understand th Nigerian way of thinking - bravery etc. if Rhor did he wouldn’t be harping about our FIFa ranking (knowing fully well that the ranking is very Eurocentric). He wouldn’t be making statements about how Croatian players play for big clubs. He wouldn’t say a team of professional footballers are at the world cup to learn, instead of compete like everyone else there. Something is fundamentally wrong guys. What is Pinnick saying about the coach’s comments and attitude? The guy comes across as a typical old-school Eurocentric German who belongs to the school of thought that the African man is always inferior. He will cite FIFA ranking and Euro quarterfinals appearance after a loss to Iceland. The Argentina match is a forgone conclusion. Clearly Nigeria’s World Cup ended before the players even set foot on the field.


Thank you. :agree:

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 18, 2018 10:34 pm 
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Enugu II wrote:
cic,

You give great credit to the scouting system. Bros, the scouting system is not as efficient or as effective as you may assume anywhere in the world, let alone scouting African talent in Africa. There are many factors that determine which club a player gets to in Europe. Nigerian players, primarily, are not seeking to play for the "best" club. Their first goal is to earn a living. Take the current signing of Etebo by Stoke. Do you think that an English player of the same talent would make that same move? Note also that players seeking to play in Europe would often have to be far better than their European counterparts to be signed on. It is really difficult to list several factors here but one thing for sure is that the scouting and recruitment is less efficient than we may think in spite of the increased accessibility to data.

Enugu, the scouting system for European clubs is better than the NFF's. There is NO way an Okocha or Weah would be hiding in your village unnoticed. It's virtually impossible. The world is not like it was when we lived in Nigeria!

I understand why players go to crap clubs abroad. But once there, if they prove themselves, they can go elsewhere.

Etebo has gone to Stoke b/c that is his level. If he does the business at Stoke, he should be out of there in no time. Look at Mane at Southampton.

Nna, think about it. 20 years ago, we had Taribo at Inter, Oliseh at Juve, Finidi at Ajax, Kanu - Ajax, Inter, the Arse, etc. This was when the odds were even more stacked against Africans! We have Etebo at Stoke b/c he is not as good as our players that played at top clubs.

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