Tiki-Taka's Dead?

[txj]

Not so fast sir....

No side, perhaps, is ever so much itself as when it is going out of the World Cup. When teams – or at least those with aspirations to the title – fail, they tend to fail in their own way, and become too much of themselves: self-parody is a perennial danger. And so Spain and Germany went out of the World Cup after anaemic performances in which they seemed to fetishise possession rather than it being a means to an end.

That doesn’t mean juego de posicion football is over, as some of the more excitable voices on social media have claimed; it just means that two teams who played football infected by Pep Guardiola had bad tournaments. Sides who play post-Cruyffian football won the league in Spain, England and Germany, while Napoli came second in Serie A.

Rather, after two World Cups won by post-Cruyffian sides, there has been a correction, just as in the Champions League semi-finals in 2013 there came a blip as the dynamic German style practised by Jürgen Klopp’s Borussia Dortmund and, to a lesser extent, Jupp Heynckes’s Bayern hammered the possession-driven Spanish model practised by Tito Vilanova’s Barça and, to a lesser extent, José Mourinho’s Real Madrid.

That did not consign juego de posicion to irrelevance; all it did was show that, while it remained a dominant style, it was one among many rather than being hegemonic over all others. But international football, anyway, is not like club football.

Although the World Cup was once a showcase for tactical trends, international football has never led the way tactically. The world was alerted to the possibilities of a back four by Brazil in 1958, but it had been deployed at Vila Nova, Flamengo and São Paulo for four or five years before that. Similarly, it may have been the Netherlands who popularised Total Football in the 1974 World Cup, but by then the Ajax of Rinus Michels and Stefan Kovacs had already won three European Cups.

Over the past four decades, as club football has become increasingly sophisticated, international football has looked a make-do-and-mend botch job by comparison. That is part of its charm: it’s arguably a greater test of coaching to find a way to cope with a long-term dearth of, say, left-wingers than simply going out and buying one, while the lack of preparation time perhaps introduces a greater element of randomness than is present in the club game (the World Cup, which has not produced a shock winner since West Germany in 1954, is long overdue one).

And, as so often, there is a danger when dealing with general trends in overlooking specifics. The reason for the early exits of Germany and Spain are manifold, and only partly related to tactics. Joachim Löw admitted his side had been arrogant and had perhaps not seen the warning signs. Perhaps he selected too many established names on reputation rather than recent form. The squad seems to have been riven by cliques.

Löw himself was perhaps found out: at the last World Cup he struggled to get the balance right between attack and defence and was bailed out by Miroslav Klose, who scored a vital goal against Ghana before offering a focal point to the forward line from the quarter-final on. Here, without Klose, or an in-form Thomas Müller, there was no edge to Germany’s attack and so despite 65.3% possession over the group stage, their threat was limited. Combine that with their issues in checking opposing counterattacks – damningly highlighted in pre-tournament friendlies – and the only outcome can be disappointment.

It’s natural, of course, that the longer a mode of play exists, the more strategies spring up to counter it. Xavi observed two years ago that Spain often struggled against a 3-5-2 (such as Chile deployed against them in 2014 and Italy in 2016) because it is difficult to press high against a team with five passing outlets at the back, particularly if they have two centre-forwards to occupy the central defenders. That was the route Russia’s coach, Stanislav Cherchesov, took, and it worked – but Spain were also guilty of wastefulness in midfield in a way their champion sides were not.

Spain’s coach, Fernando Hierro, acknowledges that football is evolving. “In 2008, 2010 and 2012 we had the players we had and we played at a level and in a style that nobody had done before,” he said. “Now we’re in 2018 and many things have changed. Other teams are playing with a [defensive] line of five, which had been forgotten. There are also a lot of direct balls and quick transitions. Everything is changing.”

But more fundamental is the point that it was Hierro in charge. The biggest single factor in Spain’s early exit was less to do with tactical developments than with the fact they sacked their coach on the eve of the tournament. Hierro was placed in an almost impossible position, playing with another coach’s squad with no time to instil his ideas. Against both Morocco and Russia, there were times when he seemed frozen. After two disappointing tournaments in a row, Julen Lopetegui seemed to have rejuvenated Spain; it’s impossible to say how they may have fared had Real Madrid’s arrogance not derailed their campaign.

Football moves on, but the biggest factor in the demise of Spain and Germany was less evolution than that enemy of so many great theories: events.

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... in-germany

[jdizzy]

Tiki taka was found out 4 years ago but Spain refused to develop a Plan B

[Coach]

Again the question,what is the answer to the back five?

[YUJAM]

What Spain played was not Tiki Taka.

[jdizzy]

What Spain played was not Tiki Taka.

What was it then? It just looked ridiculously aimless without Xavi and prime Iniesta

[Chief Ogbunigwe]

What Spain played was not Tiki Taka.

What was it then? It just looked ridiculously aimless without Xavi and prime Iniesta

Xavi was a phenom. Plus they had the Fabulous Fabregas waiting in reserves. IMHO, Puyol was not as erratic as the either Ramos or Pique.

Of course, they had assassins like Villa and El Nino waiting to punish any mistakes.

Isco, Aspas and Diego Costa are great, but bring different dimensions.

[airwolex]

Thank God...hands down the most boring style of football invented.

[kalani JR]

They killed tiki taka after Inter beat Barcelona then Spain won the World Cup, then when Chelsea beat Barça they killed it again and Spain became European champions. They killed it again when Spain went group in Brazil and Barcelona became Champions League winners.

[King Futcha]

Japan is the new 'tiki-taka'

[joao]

Football is all about creating chances and scoring, while Tiki-Taka is more about possession.
Team-A can posses the ball for 89 minutes but if Team-B score via a free-kick or penalty, what
then is the point of having all that possession?
It's when the opposition shows complete ineptitude that Tiki-Taka seems like the rave. I bet the
Russians believe 'Parking the bus' was a great idea against Spain following their victory.
The article's summation about,

...the biggest factor in the demise of Spain and Germany was less evolution than that enemy of so many great theories: events.

informs what we are witnessing is less about the demise of any of football's philosophy, and more about circumstances surrounding an event. If the match was replayed, the result
could be different. Which is why the fans keep watching.

[mcal]

...tiki taka found out, finally

[txj]

Again the question,what is the answer to the back five?

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=290025

[txj]

Coach wrote:
Now this the sort of debate that needsto be had. Of the eight teams remaining, Uruguay, Russia, Sweden can be said to be built on resolute defending. England are very much an inbetweener, though attempting to embrace a ball-playing identity, they're using a back five with a holding man stationed infront for additional defensive support.

The most gungho team in the tournament was Mexico and the price they paid for their full throttle, was to skid off track and crash into a brick wall. Armed with a very average side, England have arrived at a quarter-final, eclipsing all of Nigeria's efforts, and look on course for a semi. Spain saw no way through Russia and Sweden have thrown almost all comers in a sleeper hold. Putting the bell curve to one side, with the intention of revisiting, what can be done about the deeplying defensive block?

Speed.....

of thought and movement

14 Nov. 1966: Mohammed Ali, The Greatest there ever was vs Cleveland Williams

The shuffle, the dazzle
The jabs,
The jabs
Oh, dem jabs...
like little pin-pricks of a pirhana

Their angles forever changing
to the left
to the right

Big Cleveland
solid as an oak
all tree trunk
erect and exact
lines tight and disciplined

But those jabs;
dem jus keep coming
one rapid pin-prick after the other

Then the haymaker (like the dribble)
sudden,
and decisive

Boom!!!!

Down goes Cleveland
Down goes Cleveland
Down goes Cleveland, and all that came with it!
Even Lebron?

Fuggedaboutit!!!!!!

[Coach]

It’s not that simple @Tx. For all the switches of play, such is the plentifulness of the bank of five, the degree of the desired stretching is minimal. The answer surely lies in the bank of four. Russia lined five up at the rear with a human shield in front, Spain passed left and right without ever increasing or rather, optimising the passing options in advanced positions. There was no penetration not purely because the block was impenetrable, but more as a consequence of the wrecking marble being used to fell it. Had East and West Germany tried to unite by taking a toothpick to the Berlin Wall, ‘tis fair to say, history would read far removed from that of now.

If three becomes five, that leaves five players in transitory/attacking positions. Now what if that back five was not man/zonally marked by a front four, effectively leaving one man free, not only will that freedom become a baton position but the situational need to pass that baton on will increase the likelihood of error. Error to be exploited. If they go five, we go four and by varying the balance of that four, one can influence the defensive shape of the opposition. Once control of the defensive shape is assumed, then precision in the offence can be achieved.

[txj]

Speed and efficiency
With the orientation, not of fear of error
but confidence; supreme confidence in possession

'tis the eye of childhood that fears a painted devil!

5v4?

Why not 5v6?

Which brings me right back to the qualities of the players...
technique, speed- of thought and recovery

error?
If there's speed, there is recovery.

The Mexicans banked on error and the sword of the counterattack
for every breakaway by Lozano, Brazil funneled back numbers to match.
First control the breakaway...

Come 2hf,
It's one way traffic
There's taco
then there's enchilada..
But its all gravy in the end...

But back to 14 Nov, 1966:

Post fight interview:

HC: What happened Cleveland?
CW: 'woz dem jabs Howie...
HC: They cut you up real good!
CW: Not jes ma skin Howie;
it cut thru to ma soul....

HC: Cassius; some fight, eh?
CC: 'told u I wuz d greatest;
first I jab 'em
sharp, hard n fast;
make him wish for his mama!
then come the body blows; soften em up a little..
then boom!!!!!!!!!!

The fight is won or lost far away from witnesses - behind the lines, in the gym, and out there on the road, long before I dance under those lights. Muhammad Ali
Read more at: https://www.brainyquote.com/authors/muhammad_ali

[jette1]

Tiki-Taka is neither new nor is it an invention of Spain. If you grew up in Nigeria at all then you either would have played tiki taka within the course of sunrise to sunset we spent playing. To say that Spain invented would be in the same realm made about invention of selfie.
however regarding its effectiveness in winning games - that is neither here nor there because it is basically a technique of chance and not a technique of plan/result just as it was on the streets of Enugu, Lagos and wherever else we camped avoiding Awo, Obasanjo, Danjuma, Muritala and rest of the war criminals