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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 1:39 pm 
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Enugu II wrote:
txj wrote:
Quote:
Definition
Birth Registration is the official recording of the birth of a child through an administrative process of the state and is coordinated by a particular branch of government. It is a permanent and official record of a child’s existence.



We should be careful how we quote or apply these things, lest we denigrate our own country...

Probably everyone of us here on CE who was born in Nigeria has a record of birth in a hospital.
- has immunization redords
- school records
- baptismal records in his church or the equivalent in a mosque


Hopefully, the statement you make here applies to all Nigerians but UNICEF states it does not. Note also that the issue is birth record and not school or baptismal records. That is a huge difference and you should be aware of this especially when one is focusing on an accurate birth date that you mentioned earlier.

So lets stick with the issue of accurate recording of birth dates and leave the rest alone unless we are moving into the realm of estimating birth dates. Remember, you mentioned that consultants can provide "100%" accuracy on birthdates for Nigerian footballers. That is the issue here. Never mind that the Nigerians who are on CE are not typical of the Nigerian population. Are you disputing the data? Let me know.


Why do you keep lying about my statements? Please stop!

In any case, I put out the definition of birth registration by UNICEF in order to distinguish between what they are referring to and record of births. We do not have an accurate system of birth registration as defined by UNICEF.

What we have however is accurate record of birth by hospitals. In some church owned hospitals, records date back to colonial times!

My reference to other demographic records is to show PROXIES that can be used to affirm birth dates...That is in part how such records are verified...

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Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:06 pm 
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Enugu II wrote:
Cellular wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
txj wrote:
Quote:
Definition
Birth Registration is the official recording of the birth of a child through an administrative process of the state and is coordinated by a particular branch of government. It is a permanent and official record of a child’s existence.



We should be careful how we quote or apply these things, lest we denigrate our own country...

Probably everyone of us here on CE who was born in Nigeria has a record of birth in a hospital.
- has immunization redords
- school records
- baptismal records in his church or the equivalent in a mosque


Hopefully, the statement you make here applies to all Nigerians but UNICEF states it does not. Note also that the issue is birth record and not school or baptismal records. That is a huge difference and you should be aware of this especially when one is focusing on an accurate birth date that you mentioned earlier.

So lets stick with the issue of accurate recording of birth dates and leave the rest alone unless we are moving into the realm of estimating birth dates. Remember, you mentioned that consultants can provide "100%" accuracy on birthdates for Nigerian footballers. That is the issue here. Never mind that the Nigerians who are on CE are not typical of the Nigerian population. Are you disputing the data? Let me know.


Prof., there is ABSOLUTELY no reason why we should be guessing a person's age in today's Naijaria. We are talking about folks born after the year 2000 here. The chance that there's one almajiri or homeless kid making it that far without any record of his birth is nearly impossible.

From my sojourn in Naijaria thus far, I can unequivocally state that there's no age cheat without the connivance of football officials. It is not done in a vacuum. There's an institutional willingness to mislead (cheat) the system. They don't even investigate the documents or declarations made by these players.

And yes, you can outsource it to an outside company. I once worked with a company who used to do screening for US embassy staff across the globe. And they had a unique way of vetting applicants. They will do physical investigation as well as administer a polygraph test. And the catch is that the applicant pays for the investigation and will get the money back if they pass the investigation. If they fail, they don't get their money back.


Cell,

While I agree that NFF officials often comnnive in age cheating, I think you deny the significant progress that they have made in recent times to improve the process by recruiting kids who are likely to be eligible considering the UNICEF data presented above. Note that the UNICEF data is not reporting about pre-2000. It is reporting data of children born annually including post-2000. There are reasons why someone may not procure a birth certificate beyond whether they are almajiri or born at home. Think about the costs. Not everyone can afford N2000 to spend on a birth certificate in today's Nigeria. This is probably the reason why UNICEF setup a program with the Nigerian Population Commission to begin to offer these birth certificates free of charge in order to stem the problem.

Now, let me note the tests carried out by outside consultants. You mention the polygraph test. You are aware that the polygraph test is not entirely a valid test and in some places it is not accepted by the courts because of some unreliabilities associated with it. Now, I am not stating that it should not be used. I am pointing, instead, to the fact that it isn't that more reliable in its use for checking a subject's veracity as the MRI is in checking a subject's eligibility for a U17 tournament. Again, that informs us that no test will have 100% reliability as Txj had claimed.

I take the liberty to post the view of the American Psychological Association on the Polygraph test below:

Quote:
The Truth About Lie Detectors (aka Polygraph Tests)
http://www.apa.org/research/action/polygraph.aspx
Most psychologists agree that there is little evidence that polygraph tests can accurately detect lies.

Findings
Lie detector tests have become a popular cultural icon — from crime dramas to comedies to advertisements — the picture of a polygraph pen wildly gyrating on a moving chart is readily recognized symbol. But, as psychologist Leonard Saxe, PhD, (1991) has argued, the idea that we can detect a person's veracity by monitoring psychophysiological changes is more myth than reality. Even the term "lie detector," used to refer to polygraph testing, is a misnomer. So-called "lie detection" involves inferring deception through analysis of physiological responses to a structured, but unstandardized, series of questions.
The instrument typically used to conduct polygraph tests consists of a physiological recorder that assesses three indicators of autonomic arousal: heart rate/blood pressure, respiration, and skin conductivity. Most examiners today use computerized recording systems. Rate and depth of respiration are measured by pneumographs wrapped around a subject's chest. Cardiovascular activity is assessed by a blood pressure cuff. Skin conductivity (called the galvanic skin or electrodermal response) is measured through electrodes attached to a subject's fingertips.
The recording instrument and questioning techniques are only used during a part of the polygraph examination. A typical examination includes a pretest phase during which the technique is explained and each test question reviewed. The pretest interview is designed to ensure that subjects understand the questions and to induce a subject's concern about being deceptive. Polygraph examinations often include a procedure called a "stimulation test," which is a demonstration of the instrument's accuracy in detecting deception.
Several questioning techniques are commonly used in polygraph tests. The most widely used test format for subjects in criminal incident investigations is the Control Question Test (CQT). The CQT compares responses to "relevant" questions (e.g., "Did you shoot your wife?"), with those of "control" questions. The control questions are designed to control for the effect of the generally threatening nature of relevant questions. Control questions concern misdeeds that are similar to those being investigated, but refer to the subject's past and are usually broad in scope; for example, "Have you ever betrayed anyone who trusted you?"
A person who is telling the truth is assumed to fear control questions more than relevant questions. This is because control questions are designed to arouse a subject's concern about their past truthfulness, while relevant questions ask about a crime they know they did not commit. A pattern of greater physiological response to relevant questions than to control questions leads to a diagnosis of "deception." Greater response to control questions leads to a judgment of nondeception. If no difference is found between relevant and control questions, the test result is considered "inconclusive."
An alternative polygraph procedure is called the Guilty Knowledge Test (GKT). A GKT involves developing a multiple-choice test with items concerning knowledge that only a guilty subject could have. A test of a theft suspect might, for example, involve questions such as "Was $500, $1,000, or $5,000 stolen?" If only a guilty suspect knows the correct answer, a larger physiological reaction to a correct choice would indicate deception. With a sufficient number of items, a psychometrically sound evaluation could be developed. GKTs are not widely employed, but there is great interest in doing so. One limitation of the GKT is that it can be used only when investigators have information that only a guilty subject would know. The interpretation of "no deception" is also a potential limitation, since it may indicate lack of knowledge rather than innocence.
The accuracy (i.e., validity) of polygraph testing has long been controversial. An underlying problem is theoretical: There is no evidence that any pattern of physiological reactions is unique to deception. An honest person may be nervous when answering truthfully and a dishonest person may be non-anxious. Also, there are few good studies that validate the ability of polygraph procedures to detect deception. As Dr. Saxe and Israeli psychologist Gershon Ben-Shahar (1999) note, "it may, in fact, be impossible to conduct a proper validity study." In real-world situations, it's very difficult to know what the truth is.
A particular problem is that polygraph research has not separated placebo-like effects (the subject's belief in the efficacy of the procedure) from the actual relationship between deception and their physiological responses. One reason that polygraph tests may appear to be accurate is that subjects who believe that the test works and that they can be detected may confess or will be very anxious when questioned. If this view is correct, the lie detector might be better called a fear detector.
Some confusion about polygraph test accuracy arises because they are used for different purposes, and for each context somewhat different theory and research is applicable. Thus, for example, virtually no research assesses the type of test and procedure used to screen individuals for jobs and security clearances. Most research has focused on specific incident testing. The cumulative research evidence suggests that CQTs detect deception better than chance, but with significant error rates, both of misclassifying innocent subjects (false positives) and failing to detect guilty individuals (false negatives).
Research on the processes involved in CQT polygraph examinations suggests that several examiner, examinee, and situational factors influence test validity, as may the technique used to score polygraph charts. There is little research on the effects of subjects' differences in such factors as education, intelligence, or level of autonomic arousal.
Evidence indicates that strategies used to "beat" polygraph examinations, so-called countermeasures, may be effective. Countermeasures include simple physical movements, psychological interventions (e.g., manipulating subjects' beliefs about the test), and the use of pharmacological agents that alter arousal patterns.
Despite the lack of good research validating polygraph tests, efforts are on-going to develop and assess new approaches. Some work involves use of additional autonomic physiologic indicators, such as cardiac output and skin temperature. Such measures, however, are more specific to deception than polygraph tests. Other researchers, such as Frank Andrew Kozel, MD, have examined functional brain imaging as a measure of deception. Dr. Kozel's research team found that for lying, compared with telling the truth, there is more activation in five brain regions (Kozel et al., 2004). However, the results do not currently support the use of fMRI to detect deception in real world individual cases.

Significance & Practical Application
Polygraph testing has generated considerable scientific and public controversy. Most psychologists and other scientists agree that there is little basis for the validity of polygraph tests. Courts, including the United States Supreme Court (cf. U.S. v. Scheffer, 1998 in which Dr.'s Saxe's research on polygraph fallibility was cited), have repeatedly rejected the use of polygraph evidence because of its inherent unreliability. Nevertheless, polygraph testing continues to be used in non-judicial settings, often to screen personnel, but sometimes to try to assess the veracity of suspects and witnesses, and to monitor criminal offenders on probation. Polygraph tests are also sometimes used by individuals seeking to convince others of their innocence and, in a narrow range of circumstances, by private agencies and corporations.
The development of currently used "lie detection" technologies has been based on ideas about physiological functioning but has, for the most part, been independent of systematic psychological research. Early theorists believed that deception required effort and, thus, could be assessed by monitoring physiological changes. But such propositions have not been proven and basic research remains limited on the nature of deceptiveness. Efforts to develop actual tests have always outpaced theory-based basic research. Without a better theoretical understanding of the mechanisms by which deception functions, however, development of a lie detection technology seems highly problematic.
For now, although the idea of a lie detector may be comforting, the most practical advice is to remain skeptical about any conclusion wrung from a polygraph.

Cited Research & Additional Sources
Kozel, F.A., Padgett, T.M. & George, M.S. (2004). A Replication Study of the Neural Correlates of Deception. Behavioral Neuroscience, 118(4): 852-56.
Lykken, D. (1998). A Tremor in the Blood: Uses and Abuses of the Lie Detector, 2d ed. New York: Perseus.
National Academy of Sciences (2002). The Polygraph and Lie Detection. Washington, DC: National Academy Press.
Saxe, L. (1991). Lying: Thoughts of an applied social psychologist. American Psychologist, 46(4): 409-15.
Saxe, L. & Ben-Shakhar, G. (1999). Admissibility of polygraph tests: The application of scientific standards post-Daubert. Psychology, Public Policy and the Law, 5(1): 203-23.



EII,

1. The UNICEF data is not evidence of lack of birth records, but lack of a reliable BIRTH REGISTRATION process, which they defined in the very document you cite!

2. The players who are selected for consideration can afford to pay any N2000 for birth records. This is less than what they spend on recharge cards in a day! There's no need to come here and say this...

3. For the record, what I said is that the only complete proof of a player's age is a valid document of his natural birth. NOT 3rd party verification; NOT MRI test; not polygraph....Thus, the best approach for verifying age is one that is most likely to lead us to this end.

4. I'm not sure what ur intent is in posting the story on polygraphs. I believe Cellular's citing of polygraph is a simple explanation of an approach his company used for verification.

5. While we have made progress in reducing the average age of our U-17 team, we are still cheating. Its not about acknowledging the progress. Its about recognizing our continued commitment to cheating...

_________________
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Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


Last edited by txj on Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:08 pm 
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Cellular wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
txj wrote:
Quote:
Definition
Birth Registration is the official recording of the birth of a child through an administrative process of the state and is coordinated by a particular branch of government. It is a permanent and official record of a child’s existence.



We should be careful how we quote or apply these things, lest we denigrate our own country...

Probably everyone of us here on CE who was born in Nigeria has a record of birth in a hospital.
- has immunization redords
- school records
- baptismal records in his church or the equivalent in a mosque


Hopefully, the statement you make here applies to all Nigerians but UNICEF states it does not. Note also that the issue is birth record and not school or baptismal records. That is a huge difference and you should be aware of this especially when one is focusing on an accurate birth date that you mentioned earlier.

So lets stick with the issue of accurate recording of birth dates and leave the rest alone unless we are moving into the realm of estimating birth dates. Remember, you mentioned that consultants can provide "100%" accuracy on birthdates for Nigerian footballers. That is the issue here. Never mind that the Nigerians who are on CE are not typical of the Nigerian population. Are you disputing the data? Let me know.


Prof., there is ABSOLUTELY no reason why we should be guessing a person's age in today's Naijaria. We are talking about folks born after the year 2000 here. The chance that there's one almajiri or homeless kid making it that far without any record of his birth is nearly impossible.

From my sojourn in Naijaria thus far, I can unequivocally state that there's no age cheat without the connivance of football officials. It is not done in a vacuum. There's an institutional willingness to mislead (cheat) the system. They don't even investigate the documents or declarations made by these players.

And yes, you can outsource it to an outside company. I once worked with a company who used to do screening for US embassy staff across the globe. And they had a unique way of vetting applicants. They will do physical investigation as well as administer a polygraph test. And the catch is that the applicant pays for the investigation and will get the money back if they pass the investigation. If they fail, they don't get their money back.


Unku, you have now addressed the CRITICAL issue. We are still debating the birth records of kids born AFTER many of us joined the CE :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: And sad that this ABSURD fact is lost in the course of this debate. And yes, those who cheat do so with the connivance of officials, and with the populace cheering on. This is not a theory nor hypothesis. We all saw the ugly fights that followed the Chukwudi saga.

These kids went to school and had classmates....

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Barren for 35 yrs no good o

New member and Titled Chief, Distant Gunners Consortium.
"This is an island surrounded by water, big water, ocean water."


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:14 pm 
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Cellular wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
txj wrote:
Quote:
Definition
Birth Registration is the official recording of the birth of a child through an administrative process of the state and is coordinated by a particular branch of government. It is a permanent and official record of a child’s existence.



We should be careful how we quote or apply these things, lest we denigrate our own country...

Probably everyone of us here on CE who was born in Nigeria has a record of birth in a hospital.
- has immunization redords
- school records
- baptismal records in his church or the equivalent in a mosque


Hopefully, the statement you make here applies to all Nigerians but UNICEF states it does not. Note also that the issue is birth record and not school or baptismal records. That is a huge difference and you should be aware of this especially when one is focusing on an accurate birth date that you mentioned earlier.

So lets stick with the issue of accurate recording of birth dates and leave the rest alone unless we are moving into the realm of estimating birth dates. Remember, you mentioned that consultants can provide "100%" accuracy on birthdates for Nigerian footballers. That is the issue here. Never mind that the Nigerians who are on CE are not typical of the Nigerian population. Are you disputing the data? Let me know.


Prof., there is ABSOLUTELY no reason why we should be guessing a person's age in today's Naijaria. We are talking about folks born after the year 2000 here. The chance that there's one almajiri or homeless kid making it that far without any record of his birth is nearly impossible.

From my sojourn in Naijaria thus far, I can unequivocally state that there's no age cheat without the connivance of football officials. It is not done in a vacuum. There's an institutional willingness to mislead (cheat) the system. They don't even investigate the documents or declarations made by these players.

And yes, you can outsource it to an outside company. I once worked with a company who used to do screening for US embassy staff across the globe. And they had a unique way of vetting applicants. They will do physical investigation as well as administer a polygraph test. And the catch is that the applicant pays for the investigation and will get the money back if they pass the investigation. If they fail, they don't get their money back.


This is what sometimes frustrates me about debates on CE, because there is often a wide gap from reality...

If the NFF desired to use only age appropriate players for U-17 football, they would have a valid process in place in a matter of weeks...

Peeps do not realize the true harm of falsification of ages on our football.

Just look at the output of our players in the national teams and compare to their contemporaries...We invest in supposedly young players who are much older and when we rightfully expect them to be at their peak, they are found lacking...

_________________
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Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


Last edited by txj on Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:15 pm 
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Chief Ogbunigwe wrote:
Cellular wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
txj wrote:
Quote:
Definition
Birth Registration is the official recording of the birth of a child through an administrative process of the state and is coordinated by a particular branch of government. It is a permanent and official record of a child’s existence.



We should be careful how we quote or apply these things, lest we denigrate our own country...

Probably everyone of us here on CE who was born in Nigeria has a record of birth in a hospital.
- has immunization redords
- school records
- baptismal records in his church or the equivalent in a mosque


Hopefully, the statement you make here applies to all Nigerians but UNICEF states it does not. Note also that the issue is birth record and not school or baptismal records. That is a huge difference and you should be aware of this especially when one is focusing on an accurate birth date that you mentioned earlier.

So lets stick with the issue of accurate recording of birth dates and leave the rest alone unless we are moving into the realm of estimating birth dates. Remember, you mentioned that consultants can provide "100%" accuracy on birthdates for Nigerian footballers. That is the issue here. Never mind that the Nigerians who are on CE are not typical of the Nigerian population. Are you disputing the data? Let me know.


Prof., there is ABSOLUTELY no reason why we should be guessing a person's age in today's Naijaria. We are talking about folks born after the year 2000 here. The chance that there's one almajiri or homeless kid making it that far without any record of his birth is nearly impossible.

From my sojourn in Naijaria thus far, I can unequivocally state that there's no age cheat without the connivance of football officials. It is not done in a vacuum. There's an institutional willingness to mislead (cheat) the system. They don't even investigate the documents or declarations made by these players.

And yes, you can outsource it to an outside company. I once worked with a company who used to do screening for US embassy staff across the globe. And they had a unique way of vetting applicants. They will do physical investigation as well as administer a polygraph test. And the catch is that the applicant pays for the investigation and will get the money back if they pass the investigation. If they fail, they don't get their money back.


Unku, you have now addressed the CRITICAL issue. We are still debating the birth records of kids born AFTER many of us joined the CE :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: And sad that this ABSURD fact is lost in the course of this debate. And yes, those who cheat do so with the connivance of officials, and with the populace cheering on. This is not a theory nor hypothesis. We all saw the ugly fights that followed the Chukwudi saga.

These kids went to school and had classmates....


KPOM!!!

_________________
Image
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:16 pm 
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EII:
Babette Zemel is a relatively young woman, while Dr. Dvorak was born in 1948, so the argument that Zemel's thought might be outdated doesn't make sense

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"This is an island surrounded by water, big water, ocean water."


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 2:35 pm 
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Cellular wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
txj wrote:
Quote:
Definition
Birth Registration is the official recording of the birth of a child through an administrative process of the state and is coordinated by a particular branch of government. It is a permanent and official record of a child’s existence.



We should be careful how we quote or apply these things, lest we denigrate our own country...

Probably everyone of us here on CE who was born in Nigeria has a record of birth in a hospital.
- has immunization redords
- school records
- baptismal records in his church or the equivalent in a mosque


Hopefully, the statement you make here applies to all Nigerians but UNICEF states it does not. Note also that the issue is birth record and not school or baptismal records. That is a huge difference and you should be aware of this especially when one is focusing on an accurate birth date that you mentioned earlier.

So lets stick with the issue of accurate recording of birth dates and leave the rest alone unless we are moving into the realm of estimating birth dates. Remember, you mentioned that consultants can provide "100%" accuracy on birthdates for Nigerian footballers. That is the issue here. Never mind that the Nigerians who are on CE are not typical of the Nigerian population. Are you disputing the data? Let me know.


Prof., there is ABSOLUTELY no reason why we should be guessing a person's age in today's Naijaria. We are talking about folks born after the year 2000 here. The chance that there's one almajiri or homeless kid making it that far without any record of his birth is nearly impossible.

From my sojourn in Naijaria thus far, I can unequivocally state that there's no age cheat without the connivance of football officials. It is not done in a vacuum. There's an institutional willingness to mislead (cheat) the system. They don't even investigate the documents or declarations made by these players.

And yes, you can outsource it to an outside company. I once worked with a company who used to do screening for US embassy staff across the globe. And they had a unique way of vetting applicants. They will do physical investigation as well as administer a polygraph test. And the catch is that the applicant pays for the investigation and will get the money back if they pass the investigation. If they fail, they don't get their money back.


Even if they vetted applicants as you have suggested, folks will still come and cast aspersions on the process and we will have another long discussion. Many actually believed that Uzoho had a teenage son even when the original source of the story clearly stated that it was a joke. Even if more can be done the MRI is a step in the right direction and I will accept its result until more convincing information emerges to the contrary.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:25 pm 
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There ought to be a standard process for age verification to go hand in hand with the required MRI.
The challenge which some of you do not appreciate and which a lazy organization and one inclined to help perpetrate fraud like the NFF would not push the boat out to help resolve is the difficulty and the cost of such undertaking.

In a civilized society, birth document presented is taken as authentic because the practice of false issuance of such document is alien to them. If the document is not readily available, for as little as a phone call or internet access one can access the original document from a central database.

This is not the case in Nigeria and it's easy to trivialize the process of searching for birth records of someone who now lives in Lagos but was born in some town in Kaduna or Umuahia. This same lazy organization would then have to do the same for whatever number of invited players, going through the whole country to try and verify the hospital they were born, go through their books and hope they keep accurate records.

We are also working under the assumption that every child born after year 2000 was born in a hospital and the hospitals keep records and these hospitals are still functional.

We are dealing with a societal problem and expecting the problem to be different because of football.
We need to address the issue of authentic record keeping and a central source for record safe keeping.

The challenges are real and just making suggestions that one should go to wherever the birth hospital is located, dust down their books from 16 years ago and move from hospital to another in search of information is not one that would be carried out with regular enthusiasm.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:39 pm 
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pajimoh wrote:
There ought to be a standard process for age verification to go hand in hand with the required MRI.
The challenge which some of you do not appreciate and which a lazy organization and one inclined to help perpetrate fraud like the NFF would not push the boat out to help resolve is the difficulty and the cost of such undertaking.

In a civilized society, birth document presented is taken as authentic because the practice of false issuance of such document is alien to them. If the document is not readily available, for as little as a phone call or internet access one can access the original document from a central database.

This is not the case in Nigeria and it's easy to trivialize the process of searching for birth records of someone who now lives in Lagos but was born in some town in Kaduna or Umuahia. This same lazy organization would then have to do the same for whatever number of invited players, going through the whole country to try and verify the hospital they were born, go through their books and hope they keep accurate records.

We are also working under the assumption that every child born after year 2000 was born in a hospital and the hospitals keep records and these hospitals are still functional.

We are dealing with a societal problem and expecting the problem to be different because of football.
We need to address the issue of authentic record keeping and a central source for record safe keeping.

The challenges are real and just making suggestions that one should go to wherever the birth hospital is located, dust down their books from 16 years ago and move from hospital to another in search of information is not one that would be carried out with regular enthusiasm.



There are challenges and they are well known. But I think you overstate them, and then use it as u are wont to do to tacitly justify inaction and in effect support the status quo- cheating.

1. The sample size for verification of records is FAR LESS than what major coys in Nigeria have to deal with routinely.
2. The cost of the verification may not be as high as you suggest. In any case, the NFF can justify it in their budgetary allocation.
3. While in theory there may be players born after 2000, not born in a hospital, the number cannot be significant.
4. We have authentic record keeping in Nigeria. We do not have an efficient NATIONWIDE SYSTEM OF BIRTH REGISTRATION.
5. What is lacking, as has been stated here repeatedly, is the will of the NFF to stop cheating.

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Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 3:54 pm 
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txj wrote:
pajimoh wrote:
There ought to be a standard process for age verification to go hand in hand with the required MRI.
The challenge which some of you do not appreciate and which a lazy organization and one inclined to help perpetrate fraud like the NFF would not push the boat out to help resolve is the difficulty and the cost of such undertaking.

In a civilized society, birth document presented is taken as authentic because the practice of false issuance of such document is alien to them. If the document is not readily available, for as little as a phone call or internet access one can access the original document from a central database.

This is not the case in Nigeria and it's easy to trivialize the process of searching for birth records of someone who now lives in Lagos but was born in some town in Kaduna or Umuahia. This same lazy organization would then have to do the same for whatever number of invited players, going through the whole country to try and verify the hospital they were born, go through their books and hope they keep accurate records.

We are also working under the assumption that every child born after year 2000 was born in a hospital and the hospitals keep records and these hospitals are still functional.

We are dealing with a societal problem and expecting the problem to be different because of football.
We need to address the issue of authentic record keeping and a central source for record safe keeping.

The challenges are real and just making suggestions that one should go to wherever the birth hospital is located, dust down their books from 16 years ago and move from hospital to another in search of information is not one that would be carried out with regular enthusiasm.



There are challenges and they are well known. But I think you overstate them, and then use it as u are wont to do to tacitly justify inaction and in effect support the status quo- cheating.

1. The sample size for verification of records is FAR LESS than what major coys in Nigeria have to deal with routinely.
2. The cost of the verification may not be as high as you suggest. In any case, the NFF can justify it in their budgetary allocation.
3. While in theory there may be players born after 2000, not born in a hospital, the number cannot be significant.
4. We have authentic record keeping in Nigeria. We do not have an efficient NATIONWIDE SYSTEM OF BIRTH REGISTRATION.
5. What is lacking, as has been stated here repeatedly, is the will of the NFF to stop cheating.


Major companies often get it wrong. Due to the frankly stupid decision of several such companies to hire only people under 26 for graduate positions there are several cases of age falsification that are not caught by these companies. The main areas for verification for most companies are education and experience and it is easier to verify those than age.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:22 pm 
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aruako1 wrote:
Cellular wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
txj wrote:
Quote:
Definition
Birth Registration is the official recording of the birth of a child through an administrative process of the state and is coordinated by a particular branch of government. It is a permanent and official record of a child’s existence.



We should be careful how we quote or apply these things, lest we denigrate our own country...

Probably everyone of us here on CE who was born in Nigeria has a record of birth in a hospital.
- has immunization redords
- school records
- baptismal records in his church or the equivalent in a mosque


Hopefully, the statement you make here applies to all Nigerians but UNICEF states it does not. Note also that the issue is birth record and not school or baptismal records. That is a huge difference and you should be aware of this especially when one is focusing on an accurate birth date that you mentioned earlier.

So lets stick with the issue of accurate recording of birth dates and leave the rest alone unless we are moving into the realm of estimating birth dates. Remember, you mentioned that consultants can provide "100%" accuracy on birthdates for Nigerian footballers. That is the issue here. Never mind that the Nigerians who are on CE are not typical of the Nigerian population. Are you disputing the data? Let me know.


Prof., there is ABSOLUTELY no reason why we should be guessing a person's age in today's Naijaria. We are talking about folks born after the year 2000 here. The chance that there's one almajiri or homeless kid making it that far without any record of his birth is nearly impossible.

From my sojourn in Naijaria thus far, I can unequivocally state that there's no age cheat without the connivance of football officials. It is not done in a vacuum. There's an institutional willingness to mislead (cheat) the system. They don't even investigate the documents or declarations made by these players.

And yes, you can outsource it to an outside company. I once worked with a company who used to do screening for US embassy staff across the globe. And they had a unique way of vetting applicants. They will do physical investigation as well as administer a polygraph test. And the catch is that the applicant pays for the investigation and will get the money back if they pass the investigation. If they fail, they don't get their money back.


Even if they vetted applicants as you have suggested, folks will still come and cast aspersions on the process and we will have another long discussion. Many actually believed that Uzoho had a teenage son even when the original source of the story clearly stated that it was a joke. Even if more can be done the MRI is a step in the right direction and I will accept its result until more convincing information emerges to the contrary.


I know you be lawyer, and you guys argue for a living, but what has uninformed folks spreading rumors about Uzoho to do with having legitimate birth certificates for people born after 2000? Were there not talks about Diego Costa, Oden, et al? People, uninformed as they may be, only were able to give life to the rumors about Uzoho because of our culture of not respecting records... Why do we need MRI to tell us a child who wasn't found roaming the woods, is his stated age?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:23 pm 
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txj wrote:
pajimoh wrote:
There ought to be a standard process for age verification to go hand in hand with the required MRI.
The challenge which some of you do not appreciate and which a lazy organization and one inclined to help perpetrate fraud like the NFF would not push the boat out to help resolve is the difficulty and the cost of such undertaking.

In a civilized society, birth document presented is taken as authentic because the practice of false issuance of such document is alien to them. If the document is not readily available, for as little as a phone call or internet access one can access the original document from a central database.

This is not the case in Nigeria and it's easy to trivialize the process of searching for birth records of someone who now lives in Lagos but was born in some town in Kaduna or Umuahia. This same lazy organization would then have to do the same for whatever number of invited players, going through the whole country to try and verify the hospital they were born, go through their books and hope they keep accurate records.

We are also working under the assumption that every child born after year 2000 was born in a hospital and the hospitals keep records and these hospitals are still functional.

We are dealing with a societal problem and expecting the problem to be different because of football.
We need to address the issue of authentic record keeping and a central source for record safe keeping.

The challenges are real and just making suggestions that one should go to wherever the birth hospital is located, dust down their books from 16 years ago and move from hospital to another in search of information is not one that would be carried out with regular enthusiasm.



There are challenges and they are well known. But I think you overstate them, and then use it as u are wont to do to tacitly justify inaction and in effect support the status quo- cheating.

1. The sample size for verification of records is FAR LESS than what major coys in Nigeria have to deal with routinely.
2. The cost of the verification may not be as high as you suggest. In any case, the NFF can justify it in their budgetary allocation.
3. While in theory there may be players born after 2000, not born in a hospital, the number cannot be significant.
4. We have authentic record keeping in Nigeria. We do not have an efficient NATIONWIDE SYSTEM OF BIRTH REGISTRATION.
5. What is lacking, as has been stated here repeatedly, is the will of the NFF to stop cheating.

There you go again, accusing me of justifying inaction.

What you don't seem to appreciate and I'm pointing out is the difficulty, cost and the overall need to deal with what is a societal problem.
Have you ever tried chasing your own documents in Nigeria? Documents are lost and found based on what changes hands.

Have you been told to come back another time because the person you need to see is busy or on holiday? Have you ever been told to write an official letter and wait for a response?

You then expect our lazy NFF to keep going through this everytime they are required to verify a player for every tournament that requires verification.

How do you know players born after 2000 their number cannot be significant? You trivializes the challenges and make it difficult to come up with an effective solution

You're now claiming we have authentic record keeping in Nigeria but we also know authentic records can be altered, all for a fee. Isn't that why we said most documents and records cannot be relied upon?

We are in agreement regarding the will to do the right thing and that cuts across everything in Nigeria. The NFF certainly can be faulted for that but they don't work in isolation. Even if they are willing, how about the support structure, individuals etc.
Nigeria is what it is now because hardly anything functions the way it ought. Not just the NFF or our football.

If going to the hospital to verify their record becomes the defacto proof that is required and you think our people will not find a way to circumvent that too then....

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:30 pm 
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Chief Ogbunigwe wrote:
aruako1 wrote:
Cellular wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
txj wrote:
Quote:
Definition
Birth Registration is the official recording of the birth of a child through an administrative process of the state and is coordinated by a particular branch of government. It is a permanent and official record of a child’s existence.



We should be careful how we quote or apply these things, lest we denigrate our own country...

Probably everyone of us here on CE who was born in Nigeria has a record of birth in a hospital.
- has immunization redords
- school records
- baptismal records in his church or the equivalent in a mosque


Hopefully, the statement you make here applies to all Nigerians but UNICEF states it does not. Note also that the issue is birth record and not school or baptismal records. That is a huge difference and you should be aware of this especially when one is focusing on an accurate birth date that you mentioned earlier.

So lets stick with the issue of accurate recording of birth dates and leave the rest alone unless we are moving into the realm of estimating birth dates. Remember, you mentioned that consultants can provide "100%" accuracy on birthdates for Nigerian footballers. That is the issue here. Never mind that the Nigerians who are on CE are not typical of the Nigerian population. Are you disputing the data? Let me know.


Prof., there is ABSOLUTELY no reason why we should be guessing a person's age in today's Naijaria. We are talking about folks born after the year 2000 here. The chance that there's one almajiri or homeless kid making it that far without any record of his birth is nearly impossible.

From my sojourn in Naijaria thus far, I can unequivocally state that there's no age cheat without the connivance of football officials. It is not done in a vacuum. There's an institutional willingness to mislead (cheat) the system. They don't even investigate the documents or declarations made by these players.

And yes, you can outsource it to an outside company. I once worked with a company who used to do screening for US embassy staff across the globe. And they had a unique way of vetting applicants. They will do physical investigation as well as administer a polygraph test. And the catch is that the applicant pays for the investigation and will get the money back if they pass the investigation. If they fail, they don't get their money back.


Even if they vetted applicants as you have suggested, folks will still come and cast aspersions on the process and we will have another long discussion. Many actually believed that Uzoho had a teenage son even when the original source of the story clearly stated that it was a joke. Even if more can be done the MRI is a step in the right direction and I will accept its result until more convincing information emerges to the contrary.


I know you be lawyer, and you guys argue for a living, but what has uninformed folks spreading rumors about Uzoho to do with having legitimate birth certificates for people born after 2000? Were there not talks about Diego Costa, Oden, et al? People, uninformed as they may be, only were able to give life to the rumors about Uzoho because of our culture of not respecting records... Why do we need MRI to tell us a child who wasn't found roaming the woods, is his stated age?


We don't argue as much as Russian trained Philly doctors :D . My point is - how are we sure that legitimate birth certificates have not been presented by the players already? The premise appears to be that the documents already presented are false. If that is the case any verification system will still be subject to suspicion and we will still be arguing about the same topic.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:32 pm 
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aruako1 wrote:
Chief Ogbunigwe wrote:
aruako1 wrote:
Cellular wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
txj wrote:
Quote:
Definition
Birth Registration is the official recording of the birth of a child through an administrative process of the state and is coordinated by a particular branch of government. It is a permanent and official record of a child’s existence.



We should be careful how we quote or apply these things, lest we denigrate our own country...

Probably everyone of us here on CE who was born in Nigeria has a record of birth in a hospital.
- has immunization redords
- school records
- baptismal records in his church or the equivalent in a mosque


Hopefully, the statement you make here applies to all Nigerians but UNICEF states it does not. Note also that the issue is birth record and not school or baptismal records. That is a huge difference and you should be aware of this especially when one is focusing on an accurate birth date that you mentioned earlier.

So lets stick with the issue of accurate recording of birth dates and leave the rest alone unless we are moving into the realm of estimating birth dates. Remember, you mentioned that consultants can provide "100%" accuracy on birthdates for Nigerian footballers. That is the issue here. Never mind that the Nigerians who are on CE are not typical of the Nigerian population. Are you disputing the data? Let me know.


Prof., there is ABSOLUTELY no reason why we should be guessing a person's age in today's Naijaria. We are talking about folks born after the year 2000 here. The chance that there's one almajiri or homeless kid making it that far without any record of his birth is nearly impossible.

From my sojourn in Naijaria thus far, I can unequivocally state that there's no age cheat without the connivance of football officials. It is not done in a vacuum. There's an institutional willingness to mislead (cheat) the system. They don't even investigate the documents or declarations made by these players.

And yes, you can outsource it to an outside company. I once worked with a company who used to do screening for US embassy staff across the globe. And they had a unique way of vetting applicants. They will do physical investigation as well as administer a polygraph test. And the catch is that the applicant pays for the investigation and will get the money back if they pass the investigation. If they fail, they don't get their money back.


Even if they vetted applicants as you have suggested, folks will still come and cast aspersions on the process and we will have another long discussion. Many actually believed that Uzoho had a teenage son even when the original source of the story clearly stated that it was a joke. Even if more can be done the MRI is a step in the right direction and I will accept its result until more convincing information emerges to the contrary.


I know you be lawyer, and you guys argue for a living, but what has uninformed folks spreading rumors about Uzoho to do with having legitimate birth certificates for people born after 2000? Were there not talks about Diego Costa, Oden, et al? People, uninformed as they may be, only were able to give life to the rumors about Uzoho because of our culture of not respecting records... Why do we need MRI to tell us a child who wasn't found roaming the woods, is his stated age?


We don't argue as much as Russian trained Philly doctors :D . My point is - how are we sure that legitimate birth certificates have not been presented by the players already? The premise appears to be that the documents already presented are false. If that is the case any verification system will still be subject to suspicion and we will still be arguing about the same topic.


It appears that the federation does not put much stock on the documentation, and it seems that folks are showing up with sworn affidavits.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 4:51 pm 
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pajimoh wrote:
txj wrote:
pajimoh wrote:
There ought to be a standard process for age verification to go hand in hand with the required MRI.
The challenge which some of you do not appreciate and which a lazy organization and one inclined to help perpetrate fraud like the NFF would not push the boat out to help resolve is the difficulty and the cost of such undertaking.

In a civilized society, birth document presented is taken as authentic because the practice of false issuance of such document is alien to them. If the document is not readily available, for as little as a phone call or internet access one can access the original document from a central database.

This is not the case in Nigeria and it's easy to trivialize the process of searching for birth records of someone who now lives in Lagos but was born in some town in Kaduna or Umuahia. This same lazy organization would then have to do the same for whatever number of invited players, going through the whole country to try and verify the hospital they were born, go through their books and hope they keep accurate records.

We are also working under the assumption that every child born after year 2000 was born in a hospital and the hospitals keep records and these hospitals are still functional.

We are dealing with a societal problem and expecting the problem to be different because of football.
We need to address the issue of authentic record keeping and a central source for record safe keeping.

The challenges are real and just making suggestions that one should go to wherever the birth hospital is located, dust down their books from 16 years ago and move from hospital to another in search of information is not one that would be carried out with regular enthusiasm.



There are challenges and they are well known. But I think you overstate them, and then use it as u are wont to do to tacitly justify inaction and in effect support the status quo- cheating.

1. The sample size for verification of records is FAR LESS than what major coys in Nigeria have to deal with routinely.
2. The cost of the verification may not be as high as you suggest. In any case, the NFF can justify it in their budgetary allocation.
3. While in theory there may be players born after 2000, not born in a hospital, the number cannot be significant.
4. We have authentic record keeping in Nigeria. We do not have an efficient NATIONWIDE SYSTEM OF BIRTH REGISTRATION.
5. What is lacking, as has been stated here repeatedly, is the will of the NFF to stop cheating.

There you go again, accusing me of justifying inaction.

What you don't seem to appreciate and I'm pointing out is the difficulty, cost and the overall need to deal with what is a societal problem. APOLOGIES...


Have you ever tried chasing your own documents in Nigeria? Documents are lost and found based on what changes hands.

Have you been told to come back another time because the person you need to see is busy or on holiday? Have you ever been told to write an official letter and wait for a response? YES; I lived and worked in Nigeria- both in govt and prvte coys.

You then expect our lazy NFF to keep going through this everytime they are required to verify a player for every tournament that requires verification. No. They do not have the capacity to do this by themselves, hence the suggestion about using vendors who do this for a living.

How do you know players born after 2000 their number cannot be significant? You trivializes the challenges and make it difficult to come up with an effective solution. Based on eligibility requirements for this category, that is where the MAJORITY of the sample population will be drawn from.

You're now claiming we have authentic record keeping in Nigeria but we also know authentic records can be altered, all for a fee. Isn't that why we said most documents and records cannot be relied upon? Does not change the fact of our record keeping. What you have pointed out is the absence of mechanisms for protecting the validity of records, a criminal justice issue.

We are in agreement regarding the will to do the right thing and that cuts across everything in Nigeria. The NFF certainly can be faulted for that but they don't work in isolation. Even if they are willing, how about the support structure, individuals etc. Nigeria is what it is now because hardly anything functions the way it ought. Not just the NFF or our football. True. But the discussion here is specific to the NFF and its lack of will to do the right thing.

If going to the hospital to verify their record becomes the defacto proof that is required and you think our people will not find a way to circumvent that too then....[color=#FF0000]True. There are also mechanisms to address this. For instance, it is possible to begin the verification process in advance of announcement/invitation of players. Plus, the birth records are only one of several documents. Verification processes often involve the use of proxies (support documents), in this case such as education records, immunization records, church records, etc...In addition, it is also possible to drop players u cannot validate their records, just like the MRI does.../color]

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Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:00 pm 
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Chief Ogbunigwe wrote:
Cellular wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
txj wrote:
Quote:
Definition
Birth Registration is the official recording of the birth of a child through an administrative process of the state and is coordinated by a particular branch of government. It is a permanent and official record of a child’s existence.



We should be careful how we quote or apply these things, lest we denigrate our own country...

Probably everyone of us here on CE who was born in Nigeria has a record of birth in a hospital.
- has immunization redords
- school records
- baptismal records in his church or the equivalent in a mosque


Hopefully, the statement you make here applies to all Nigerians but UNICEF states it does not. Note also that the issue is birth record and not school or baptismal records. That is a huge difference and you should be aware of this especially when one is focusing on an accurate birth date that you mentioned earlier.

So lets stick with the issue of accurate recording of birth dates and leave the rest alone unless we are moving into the realm of estimating birth dates. Remember, you mentioned that consultants can provide "100%" accuracy on birthdates for Nigerian footballers. That is the issue here. Never mind that the Nigerians who are on CE are not typical of the Nigerian population. Are you disputing the data? Let me know.


Prof., there is ABSOLUTELY no reason why we should be guessing a person's age in today's Naijaria. We are talking about folks born after the year 2000 here. The chance that there's one almajiri or homeless kid making it that far without any record of his birth is nearly impossible.

From my sojourn in Naijaria thus far, I can unequivocally state that there's no age cheat without the connivance of football officials. It is not done in a vacuum. There's an institutional willingness to mislead (cheat) the system. They don't even investigate the documents or declarations made by these players.

And yes, you can outsource it to an outside company. I once worked with a company who used to do screening for US embassy staff across the globe. And they had a unique way of vetting applicants. They will do physical investigation as well as administer a polygraph test. And the catch is that the applicant pays for the investigation and will get the money back if they pass the investigation. If they fail, they don't get their money back.


Unku, you have now addressed the CRITICAL issue. We are still debating the birth records of kids born AFTER many of us joined the CE :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: And sad that this ABSURD fact is lost in the course of this debate. And yes, those who cheat do so with the connivance of officials, and with the populace cheering on. This is not a theory nor hypothesis. We all saw the ugly fights that followed the Chukwudi saga.

These kids went to school and had classmates....



Birth records can be fabricated as well. I will take MRI's (once the proper control subjects are expanded to cover everyone) over birth records any day! There is no fool proof method that can not be defeated, however, for me, i will trust nature over man made documents.

The issue with the Chukwudi that keeps getting referenced is NINE years old. We have come a long way from chukwudi. His incidence occurred in 2009, the very first year that FIFA introduced this testing protocol, and it wasn't mandatory then. There are probably instances of over aged players being included in the u-17 squad, but it has been drastically reduced. Unless you guys are maintaining with a straight fact that Nigeria is so unique that it has figured out a way to freeze fusion in fully grown adults and has a stable of these unique individuals on standby by to produce each 4 years.

No one is against using documentation/ 3rd party verification. The simple question that E2 asked, (at least from the way i read it) is proof or evidence that such verification processes are more accurate than the NFF's application of the MRI testing protocol that keeps getting derided on this pages. These so called companies verify background information and educational credentials for job applicants. To my knowledge (and correct me if i am wrong) they are not in the business of determining the specific DOB of their applicants. If they have not been tasked with doing this up to this point, then how can anyone claim that their process is better than MRI?

_________________
We have been brainwashed by the Premier League that it's the best in the world. Nonsense. It's the best brand
Roy Keane: ITV 02/25/14

He says that we are currently "brainwashed" into believing that the Premier League is the best competition in the world, and that we are now a long way off dominating the Champions League again.
Gary Neville: Mirror: 12/23/14

I think Spain’s by far the best league.
Scholes. UK Guardian 9/6/16


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:02 pm 
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aruako1 wrote:
Chief Ogbunigwe wrote:
aruako1 wrote:
Cellular wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
txj wrote:
Quote:
Definition
Birth Registration is the official recording of the birth of a child through an administrative process of the state and is coordinated by a particular branch of government. It is a permanent and official record of a child’s existence.



We should be careful how we quote or apply these things, lest we denigrate our own country...

Probably everyone of us here on CE who was born in Nigeria has a record of birth in a hospital.
- has immunization redords
- school records
- baptismal records in his church or the equivalent in a mosque


Hopefully, the statement you make here applies to all Nigerians but UNICEF states it does not. Note also that the issue is birth record and not school or baptismal records. That is a huge difference and you should be aware of this especially when one is focusing on an accurate birth date that you mentioned earlier.

So lets stick with the issue of accurate recording of birth dates and leave the rest alone unless we are moving into the realm of estimating birth dates. Remember, you mentioned that consultants can provide "100%" accuracy on birthdates for Nigerian footballers. That is the issue here. Never mind that the Nigerians who are on CE are not typical of the Nigerian population. Are you disputing the data? Let me know.


Prof., there is ABSOLUTELY no reason why we should be guessing a person's age in today's Naijaria. We are talking about folks born after the year 2000 here. The chance that there's one almajiri or homeless kid making it that far without any record of his birth is nearly impossible.

From my sojourn in Naijaria thus far, I can unequivocally state that there's no age cheat without the connivance of football officials. It is not done in a vacuum. There's an institutional willingness to mislead (cheat) the system. They don't even investigate the documents or declarations made by these players.

And yes, you can outsource it to an outside company. I once worked with a company who used to do screening for US embassy staff across the globe. And they had a unique way of vetting applicants. They will do physical investigation as well as administer a polygraph test. And the catch is that the applicant pays for the investigation and will get the money back if they pass the investigation. If they fail, they don't get their money back.


Even if they vetted applicants as you have suggested, folks will still come and cast aspersions on the process and we will have another long discussion. Many actually believed that Uzoho had a teenage son even when the original source of the story clearly stated that it was a joke. Even if more can be done the MRI is a step in the right direction and I will accept its result until more convincing information emerges to the contrary.


I know you be lawyer, and you guys argue for a living, but what has uninformed folks spreading rumors about Uzoho to do with having legitimate birth certificates for people born after 2000? Were there not talks about Diego Costa, Oden, et al? People, uninformed as they may be, only were able to give life to the rumors about Uzoho because of our culture of not respecting records... Why do we need MRI to tell us a child who wasn't found roaming the woods, is his stated age?


We don't argue as much as Russian trained Philly doctors :D . My point is - how are we sure that legitimate birth certificates have not been presented by the players already? The premise appears to be that the documents already presented are false. If that is the case any verification system will still be subject to suspicion and we will still be arguing about the same topic.



KPOM!

_________________
We have been brainwashed by the Premier League that it's the best in the world. Nonsense. It's the best brand
Roy Keane: ITV 02/25/14

He says that we are currently "brainwashed" into believing that the Premier League is the best competition in the world, and that we are now a long way off dominating the Champions League again.
Gary Neville: Mirror: 12/23/14

I think Spain’s by far the best league.
Scholes. UK Guardian 9/6/16


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:52 pm 
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Chief Ogbunigwe wrote:
EII:
Babette Zemel is a relatively young woman, while Dr. Dvorak was born in 1948, so the argument that Zemel's thought might be outdated doesn't make sense


Chief

The age of the doctor is not an issue here and has no impact on the point. Let me give you an example you may have a 30 year old doctor still suggesting psi count as enough reason for treating prostrate cancer because that may be the latest information that he or she knows. Yet a 50 year old doctor involved in prostrate cancer research will know more information that has higher probability of detecting a need for treatment. That is the point I was making and this the age is irrelevant. What matters is proximity to the latest research information.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 5:56 pm 
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txj wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
Cellular wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
txj wrote:
Quote:
Definition
Birth Registration is the official recording of the birth of a child through an administrative process of the state and is coordinated by a particular branch of government. It is a permanent and official record of a child’s existence.



We should be careful how we quote or apply these things, lest we denigrate our own country...

Probably everyone of us here on CE who was born in Nigeria has a record of birth in a hospital.
- has immunization redords
- school records
- baptismal records in his church or the equivalent in a mosque


Hopefully, the statement you make here applies to all Nigerians but UNICEF states it does not. Note also that the issue is birth record and not school or baptismal records. That is a huge difference and you should be aware of this especially when one is focusing on an accurate birth date that you mentioned earlier.

So lets stick with the issue of accurate recording of birth dates and leave the rest alone unless we are moving into the realm of estimating birth dates. Remember, you mentioned that consultants can provide "100%" accuracy on birthdates for Nigerian footballers. That is the issue here. Never mind that the Nigerians who are on CE are not typical of the Nigerian population. Are you disputing the data? Let me know.


Prof., there is ABSOLUTELY no reason why we should be guessing a person's age in today's Naijaria. We are talking about folks born after the year 2000 here. The chance that there's one almajiri or homeless kid making it that far without any record of his birth is nearly impossible.

From my sojourn in Naijaria thus far, I can unequivocally state that there's no age cheat without the connivance of football officials. It is not done in a vacuum. There's an institutional willingness to mislead (cheat) the system. They don't even investigate the documents or declarations made by these players.

And yes, you can outsource it to an outside company. I once worked with a company who used to do screening for US embassy staff across the globe. And they had a unique way of vetting applicants. They will do physical investigation as well as administer a polygraph test. And the catch is that the applicant pays for the investigation and will get the money back if they pass the investigation. If they fail, they don't get their money back.


Cell,

While I agree that NFF officials often comnnive in age cheating, I think you deny the significant progress that they have made in recent times to improve the process by recruiting kids who are likely to be eligible considering the UNICEF data presented above. Note that the UNICEF data is not reporting about pre-2000. It is reporting data of children born annually including post-2000. There are reasons why someone may not procure a birth certificate beyond whether they are almajiri or born at home. Think about the costs. Not everyone can afford N2000 to spend on a birth certificate in today's Nigeria. This is probably the reason why UNICEF setup a program with the Nigerian Population Commission to begin to offer these birth certificates free of charge in order to stem the problem.

Now, let me note the tests carried out by outside consultants. You mention the polygraph test. You are aware that the polygraph test is not entirely a valid test and in some places it is not accepted by the courts because of some unreliabilities associated with it. Now, I am not stating that it should not be used. I am pointing, instead, to the fact that it isn't that more reliable in its use for checking a subject's veracity as the MRI is in checking a subject's eligibility for a U17 tournament. Again, that informs us that no test will have 100% reliability as Txj had claimed.

I take the liberty to post the view of the American Psychological Association on the Polygraph test below:

Quote:
The Truth About Lie Detectors (aka Polygraph Tests)
http://www.apa.org/research/action/polygraph.aspx
Most psychologists agree that there is little evidence that polygraph tests can accurately detect lies.

Findings
Lie detector tests have become a popular cultural icon — from crime dramas to comedies to advertisements — the picture of a polygraph pen wildly gyrating on a moving chart is readily recognized symbol. But, as psychologist Leonard Saxe, PhD, (1991) has argued, the idea that we can detect a person's veracity by monitoring psychophysiological changes is more myth than reality. Even the term "lie detector," used to refer to polygraph testing, is a misnomer. So-called "lie detection" involves inferring deception through analysis of physiological responses to a structured, but unstandardized, series of questions.
The instrument typically used to conduct polygraph tests consists of a physiological recorder that assesses three indicators of autonomic arousal: heart rate/blood pressure, respiration, and skin conductivity. Most examiners today use computerized recording systems. Rate and depth of respiration are measured by pneumographs wrapped around a subject's chest. Cardiovascular activity is assessed by a blood pressure cuff. Skin conductivity (called the galvanic skin or electrodermal response) is measured through electrodes attached to a subject's fingertips.
The recording instrument and questioning techniques are only used during a part of the polygraph examination. A typical examination includes a pretest phase during which the technique is explained and each test question reviewed. The pretest interview is designed to ensure that subjects understand the questions and to induce a subject's concern about being deceptive. Polygraph examinations often include a procedure called a "stimulation test," which is a demonstration of the instrument's accuracy in detecting deception.
Several questioning techniques are commonly used in polygraph tests. The most widely used test format for subjects in criminal incident investigations is the Control Question Test (CQT). The CQT compares responses to "relevant" questions (e.g., "Did you shoot your wife?"), with those of "control" questions. The control questions are designed to control for the effect of the generally threatening nature of relevant questions. Control questions concern misdeeds that are similar to those being investigated, but refer to the subject's past and are usually broad in scope; for example, "Have you ever betrayed anyone who trusted you?"
A person who is telling the truth is assumed to fear control questions more than relevant questions. This is because control questions are designed to arouse a subject's concern about their past truthfulness, while relevant questions ask about a crime they know they did not commit. A pattern of greater physiological response to relevant questions than to control questions leads to a diagnosis of "deception." Greater response to control questions leads to a judgment of nondeception. If no difference is found between relevant and control questions, the test result is considered "inconclusive."
An alternative polygraph procedure is called the Guilty Knowledge Test (GKT). A GKT involves developing a multiple-choice test with items concerning knowledge that only a guilty subject could have. A test of a theft suspect might, for example, involve questions such as "Was $500, $1,000, or $5,000 stolen?" If only a guilty suspect knows the correct answer, a larger physiological reaction to a correct choice would indicate deception. With a sufficient number of items, a psychometrically sound evaluation could be developed. GKTs are not widely employed, but there is great interest in doing so. One limitation of the GKT is that it can be used only when investigators have information that only a guilty subject would know. The interpretation of "no deception" is also a potential limitation, since it may indicate lack of knowledge rather than innocence.
The accuracy (i.e., validity) of polygraph testing has long been controversial. An underlying problem is theoretical: There is no evidence that any pattern of physiological reactions is unique to deception. An honest person may be nervous when answering truthfully and a dishonest person may be non-anxious. Also, there are few good studies that validate the ability of polygraph procedures to detect deception. As Dr. Saxe and Israeli psychologist Gershon Ben-Shahar (1999) note, "it may, in fact, be impossible to conduct a proper validity study." In real-world situations, it's very difficult to know what the truth is.
A particular problem is that polygraph research has not separated placebo-like effects (the subject's belief in the efficacy of the procedure) from the actual relationship between deception and their physiological responses. One reason that polygraph tests may appear to be accurate is that subjects who believe that the test works and that they can be detected may confess or will be very anxious when questioned. If this view is correct, the lie detector might be better called a fear detector.
Some confusion about polygraph test accuracy arises because they are used for different purposes, and for each context somewhat different theory and research is applicable. Thus, for example, virtually no research assesses the type of test and procedure used to screen individuals for jobs and security clearances. Most research has focused on specific incident testing. The cumulative research evidence suggests that CQTs detect deception better than chance, but with significant error rates, both of misclassifying innocent subjects (false positives) and failing to detect guilty individuals (false negatives).
Research on the processes involved in CQT polygraph examinations suggests that several examiner, examinee, and situational factors influence test validity, as may the technique used to score polygraph charts. There is little research on the effects of subjects' differences in such factors as education, intelligence, or level of autonomic arousal.
Evidence indicates that strategies used to "beat" polygraph examinations, so-called countermeasures, may be effective. Countermeasures include simple physical movements, psychological interventions (e.g., manipulating subjects' beliefs about the test), and the use of pharmacological agents that alter arousal patterns.
Despite the lack of good research validating polygraph tests, efforts are on-going to develop and assess new approaches. Some work involves use of additional autonomic physiologic indicators, such as cardiac output and skin temperature. Such measures, however, are more specific to deception than polygraph tests. Other researchers, such as Frank Andrew Kozel, MD, have examined functional brain imaging as a measure of deception. Dr. Kozel's research team found that for lying, compared with telling the truth, there is more activation in five brain regions (Kozel et al., 2004). However, the results do not currently support the use of fMRI to detect deception in real world individual cases.

Significance & Practical Application
Polygraph testing has generated considerable scientific and public controversy. Most psychologists and other scientists agree that there is little basis for the validity of polygraph tests. Courts, including the United States Supreme Court (cf. U.S. v. Scheffer, 1998 in which Dr.'s Saxe's research on polygraph fallibility was cited), have repeatedly rejected the use of polygraph evidence because of its inherent unreliability. Nevertheless, polygraph testing continues to be used in non-judicial settings, often to screen personnel, but sometimes to try to assess the veracity of suspects and witnesses, and to monitor criminal offenders on probation. Polygraph tests are also sometimes used by individuals seeking to convince others of their innocence and, in a narrow range of circumstances, by private agencies and corporations.
The development of currently used "lie detection" technologies has been based on ideas about physiological functioning but has, for the most part, been independent of systematic psychological research. Early theorists believed that deception required effort and, thus, could be assessed by monitoring physiological changes. But such propositions have not been proven and basic research remains limited on the nature of deceptiveness. Efforts to develop actual tests have always outpaced theory-based basic research. Without a better theoretical understanding of the mechanisms by which deception functions, however, development of a lie detection technology seems highly problematic.
For now, although the idea of a lie detector may be comforting, the most practical advice is to remain skeptical about any conclusion wrung from a polygraph.

Cited Research & Additional Sources
Kozel, F.A., Padgett, T.M. & George, M.S. (2004). A Replication Study of the Neural Correlates of Deception. Behavioral Neuroscience, 118(4): 852-56.
Lykken, D. (1998). A Tremor in the Blood: Uses and Abuses of the Lie Detector, 2d ed. New York: Perseus.
National Academy of Sciences (2002). The Polygraph and Lie Detection. Washington, DC: National Academy Press.
Saxe, L. (1991). Lying: Thoughts of an applied social psychologist. American Psychologist, 46(4): 409-15.
Saxe, L. & Ben-Shakhar, G. (1999). Admissibility of polygraph tests: The application of scientific standards post-Daubert. Psychology, Public Policy and the Law, 5(1): 203-23.



EII,

1. The UNICEF data is not evidence of lack of birth records, but lack of a reliable BIRTH REGISTRATION process, which they defined in the very document you cite!

2. The players who are selected for consideration can afford to pay any N2000 for birth records. This is less than what they spend on recharge cards in a day! There's no need to come here and say this...

3. For the record, what I said is that the only complete proof of a player's age is a valid document of his natural birth. NOT 3rd party verification; NOT MRI test; not polygraph....Thus, the best approach for verifying age is one that is most likely to lead us to this end.

4. I'm not sure what ur intent is in posting the story on polygraphs. I believe Cellular's citing of polygraph is a simple explanation of an approach his company used for verification.

5. While we have made progress in reducing the average age of our U-17 team, we are still cheating. Its not about acknowledging the progress. Its about recognizing our continued commitment to cheating...


The point that I make as well as the reason to post the piece on polygraph tests are simply -- tou r claim of consultants to identity with 100% accuracy the age of the players is simply not possible in the Nigerian environment. That is the point. If you agree on that premise then we can move to the next which is are there systems that may provide a better check on age cheating than the current MRI.

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The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:15 pm 
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Enugu II wrote:
The point that I make as well as the reason to post the piece on polygraph tests are simply -- tou r claim of consultants to identity with 100% accuracy the age of the players is simply not possible in the Nigerian environment. That is the point. If you agree on that premise then we can move to the next which is are there systems that may provide a better check on age cheating than the current MRI.


I think it goes without saying that there is no system to guarantee 100% accuracy; nor is it even necessary, which is why I have never claimed such.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:25 pm 
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txj wrote:
There you go again, accusing me of justifying inaction.

What you don't seem to appreciate and I'm pointing out is the difficulty, cost and the overall need to deal with what is a societal problem. APOLOGIES...
ACCEPTED


Have you ever tried chasing your own documents in Nigeria? Documents are lost and found based on what changes hands.

Have you been told to come back another time because the person you need to see is busy or on holiday? Have you ever been told to write an official letter and wait for a response? YES; I lived and worked in Nigeria- both in govt and prvte coys.

Still doesn't explain whether you grasp the frustrating nature of trying to get people to do what they are paid to do in a timely manner?

You then expect our lazy NFF to keep going through this everytime they are required to verify a player for every tournament that requires verification. No. They do not have the capacity to do this by themselves, hence the suggestion about using vendors who do this for a living.

I still think you're missing the point and why it's so difficult to rely on anyone in Nigeria to do the right thing. Banks are supposed to do the right thing to laid down local and international guidelines. Do they? Politicians, health sector etc. You now want to outsource the verification process to angels? :rotf: Vendors who do what for a living? :rotf: The NFF will employ the vendors or form their own vendor company, charge the NFF, verify nothing and life goes on.

How do you know players born after 2000 their number cannot be significant? You trivializes the challenges and make it difficult to come up with an effective solution. Based on eligibility requirements for this category, that is where the MAJORITY of the sample population will be drawn from.

You're now claiming we have authentic record keeping in Nigeria but we also know authentic records can be altered, all for a fee. Isn't that why we said most documents and records cannot be relied upon? Does not change the fact of our record keeping. What you have pointed out is the absence of mechanisms for protecting the validity of records, a criminal justice issue.
We have laws and guidelines to cover most thing in Nigeria. The fact that they are not been followed is why Nigeria a a mess today. Yes we keep records but we also alter those records at will for anyone willing to pay. So what good are such records?

We are in agreement regarding the will to do the right thing and that cuts across everything in Nigeria. The NFF certainly can be faulted for that but they don't work in isolation. Even if they are willing, how about the support structure, individuals etc. Nigeria is what it is now because hardly anything functions the way it ought. Not just the NFF or our football. True. But the discussion here is specific to the NFF and its lack of will to do the right thing.
And the NFF will have to, in the course of discharging their duties, interact with other groups, institutions and individuals. If they are also corrupt what then? NFF doesn't work in isolation

If going to the hospital to verify their record becomes the defacto proof that is required and you think our people will not find a way to circumvent that too then....[color=#FF0000]True. There are also mechanisms to address this. For instance, it is possible to begin the verification process in advance of announcement/invitation of players. Plus, the birth records are only one of several documents. Verification processes often involve the use of proxies (support documents), in this case such as education records, immunization records, church records, etc...In addition, it is also possible to drop players u cannot validate their records, just like the MRI does.../color]

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Last edited by pajimoh on Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:33 pm 
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Quote:
It appears that the federation does not put much stock on the documentation, and it seems that folks are showing up with sworn affidavits.


Chief Ogbunigwe not everyone who presents a sworn affidavit is cheating. Sometimes it is the only alternative as CTCs of true documents may not be available if they are lost. I agree that the affidavit is open to abuse but until we can be sure that responsible bodies will respond to requests for birth certificate CTCs then the NFF cannot reject affidavits. Even where CTCs are accepted the issue of egunje will cast doubt on the veracity of such documents. And given that the margin of error for MRI which appears to be +/- 2 years finding classmates (you often have a 2 year range in the ages of persons in each class) is not definitive. My brother in law lost about 2 years due to serious illness he had as a child and many children repeat classes. My point is that nothing will satisfy those who are not satisfied with MRI.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 01, 2018 6:56 pm 
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txj wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
The point that I make as well as the reason to post the piece on polygraph tests are simply -- tou r claim of consultants to identity with 100% accuracy the age of the players is simply not possible in the Nigerian environment. That is the point. If you agree on that premise then we can move to the next which is are there systems that may provide a better check on age cheating than the current MRI.


I think it goes without saying that there is no system to guarantee 100% accuracy; nor is it even necessary, which is why I have never claimed such.



But then your previous statement is confusing then. What system/approach were you referring to in the statement below?

Quote:
2. The only certified way of ensuring the 100% use of true age eligible players is an approach that ensures correct verification of the date of natural (or otherwise) birth.

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