Cybereagles

Enugu II wrote:charlie,

But is it not inconceivable that you can simply add sample without ever using it. That is fraudulent, as you may know and I doubt that Dvorak can get away with it. My belief is that they did use Senegal, otherwise why would they mention Senegal? What is possible, is that they may have parsed the data in order to produce multiple reports, which is not unusual in research studies. I doubt that you will find a report from then based only on a Senegalese sample but if you do please share. What I think they have done is to use the samples integratively in several of their reports.

charlie wrote:Enugu II,

I have read and re-read the links you shared, and I have still found no proof that Senegal was ever part of the original Dvorak sample data, and in fact, I can prove definitively that Senegal was never part of the original data:

Here is a detailed report of the Dvorak MRI Age determination by MRI study published online in 2006:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2465138/

Please pay attention to Table 2 where it shows the exact break down of adolescents by country:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... objectonly

No Senegal. They were not part of the original 496 adolescents clearly.

Now, I am not saying the Dvorak grading system has not been recalibrated since the original test with Senegalese data. I am just saying that I have yet to see any definitive report explaining exactly when and how Senegalese adolescents participated in such an exercise, at least to the level of detail that we have seen in the links I have shared above.

Yet, at some point (at least from 2009 onwards), Dvorak and FIFA started adding Senegal as one of the countries in their original sample size (which we now know for certain was not the case). So it begs the perfectly valid to question of when Senegalese adolecents were tested and used to calibrate the Dvorak MRI scaling system.

I will keep looking for any study showing in detail the Senegalese MRI test and share what I have as soon as I find anything.

charlie wrote:

Enugu II wrote:charlie,

But is it not inconceivable that you can simply add sample without ever using it. That is fraudulent, as you may know and I doubt that Dvorak can get away with it. My belief is that they did use Senegal, otherwise why would they mention Senegal? What is possible, is that they may have parsed the data in order to produce multiple reports, which is not unusual in research studies. I doubt that you will find a report from then based only on a Senegalese sample but if you do please share. What I think they have done is to use the samples integratively in several of their reports.

charlie wrote:Enugu II,

I have read and re-read the links you shared, and I have still found no proof that Senegal was ever part of the original Dvorak sample data, and in fact, I can prove definitively that Senegal was never part of the original data:

Here is a detailed report of the Dvorak MRI Age determination by MRI study published online in 2006:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2465138/

Please pay attention to Table 2 where it shows the exact break down of adolescents by country:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... objectonly

No Senegal. They were not part of the original 496 adolescents clearly.

Now, I am not saying the Dvorak grading system has not been recalibrated since the original test with Senegalese data. I am just saying that I have yet to see any definitive report explaining exactly when and how Senegalese adolescents participated in such an exercise, at least to the level of detail that we have seen in the links I have shared above.

Yet, at some point (at least from 2009 onwards), Dvorak and FIFA started adding Senegal as one of the countries in their original sample size (which we now know for certain was not the case). So it begs the perfectly valid to question of when Senegalese adolecents were tested and used to calibrate the Dvorak MRI scaling system.

I will keep looking for any study showing in detail the Senegalese MRI test and share what I have as soon as I find anything.

Inconceivable? My brother I am not too sure about that. Afterall, this is FIFA we are talking about and they have a history of fraud and corruption that will rival anyone.

That said, I will still benefit of doubt that somewhere there is data proving Dvorak and his team did their homework and have actually sampled Senegalese data into their original tests as they claim to have done.

I am just stunned that so far, I have seen no actual data/paper/report or study proving this, especially when you consider the wealth of information available describing the baseline test they used to create this test (certe with no Senegalese data included) and especially since CAF is practically the only federation that actually enforces MRI tests on their male youth competition. You would think Dvorak and Fifa would want to have comprehensive information available proving the viability of their MRI testing for sub-saharan Africa.

I will keep looking, but in the meantime, I suggest we put an asterixis on any mention of the Senegalese youth tests, until we can validate it with publicly available data (and not just FIFA's word).

Enugu II wrote:

charlie wrote:

Enugu II wrote:charlie,

But is it not inconceivable that you can simply add sample without ever using it. That is fraudulent, as you may know and I doubt that Dvorak can get away with it. My belief is that they did use Senegal, otherwise why would they mention Senegal? What is possible, is that they may have parsed the data in order to produce multiple reports, which is not unusual in research studies. I doubt that you will find a report from then based only on a Senegalese sample but if you do please share. What I think they have done is to use the samples integratively in several of their reports.

charlie wrote:Enugu II,

I have read and re-read the links you shared, and I have still found no proof that Senegal was ever part of the original Dvorak sample data, and in fact, I can prove definitively that Senegal was never part of the original data:

Here is a detailed report of the Dvorak MRI Age determination by MRI study published online in 2006:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2465138/

Please pay attention to Table 2 where it shows the exact break down of adolescents by country:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... objectonly

No Senegal. They were not part of the original 496 adolescents clearly.

Now, I am not saying the Dvorak grading system has not been recalibrated since the original test with Senegalese data. I am just saying that I have yet to see any definitive report explaining exactly when and how Senegalese adolescents participated in such an exercise, at least to the level of detail that we have seen in the links I have shared above.

Yet, at some point (at least from 2009 onwards), Dvorak and FIFA started adding Senegal as one of the countries in their original sample size (which we now know for certain was not the case). So it begs the perfectly valid to question of when Senegalese adolecents were tested and used to calibrate the Dvorak MRI scaling system.

I will keep looking for any study showing in detail the Senegalese MRI test and share what I have as soon as I find anything.

Inconceivable? My brother I am not too sure about that. Afterall, this is FIFA we are talking about and they have a history of fraud and corruption that will rival anyone.

That said, I will still benefit of doubt that somewhere there is data proving Dvorak and his team did their homework and have actually sampled Senegalese data into their original tests as they claim to have done.

I am just stunned that so far, I have seen no actual data/paper/report or study proving this, especially when you consider the wealth of information available describing the baseline test they used to create this test (certe with no Senegalese data included) and especially since CAF is practically the only federation that actually enforces MRI tests on their male youth competition. You would think Dvorak and Fifa would want to have comprehensive information available proving the viability of their MRI testing for sub-saharan Africa.

I will keep looking, but in the meantime, I suggest we put an asterixis on any mention of the Senegalese youth tests, until we can validate it with publicly available data (and not just FIFA's word).

Actually I have sent Dvorak a direct mail via researchgste requesting information about the Senegal sample. Hopefully, he will respond and I can share whatever he has. I really will be surprised if he didn't sample Senegal and yet includes it in the report. That will be a serious fraud. It isn't just a FIFA issue but about academic integrity.

charlie wrote:

Enugu II wrote:

charlie wrote:

Enugu II wrote:charlie,

But is it not inconceivable that you can simply add sample without ever using it. That is fraudulent, as you may know and I doubt that Dvorak can get away with it. My belief is that they did use Senegal, otherwise why would they mention Senegal? What is possible, is that they may have parsed the data in order to produce multiple reports, which is not unusual in research studies. I doubt that you will find a report from then based only on a Senegalese sample but if you do please share. What I think they have done is to use the samples integratively in several of their reports.

charlie wrote:Enugu II,

I have read and re-read the links you shared, and I have still found no proof that Senegal was ever part of the original Dvorak sample data, and in fact, I can prove definitively that Senegal was never part of the original data:

Here is a detailed report of the Dvorak MRI Age determination by MRI study published online in 2006:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2465138/

Please pay attention to Table 2 where it shows the exact break down of adolescents by country:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... objectonly

No Senegal. They were not part of the original 496 adolescents clearly.

Now, I am not saying the Dvorak grading system has not been recalibrated since the original test with Senegalese data. I am just saying that I have yet to see any definitive report explaining exactly when and how Senegalese adolescents participated in such an exercise, at least to the level of detail that we have seen in the links I have shared above.

Yet, at some point (at least from 2009 onwards), Dvorak and FIFA started adding Senegal as one of the countries in their original sample size (which we now know for certain was not the case). So it begs the perfectly valid to question of when Senegalese adolecents were tested and used to calibrate the Dvorak MRI scaling system.

I will keep looking for any study showing in detail the Senegalese MRI test and share what I have as soon as I find anything.

Inconceivable? My brother I am not too sure about that. Afterall, this is FIFA we are talking about and they have a history of fraud and corruption that will rival anyone.

That said, I will still benefit of doubt that somewhere there is data proving Dvorak and his team did their homework and have actually sampled Senegalese data into their original tests as they claim to have done.

I am just stunned that so far, I have seen no actual data/paper/report or study proving this, especially when you consider the wealth of information available describing the baseline test they used to create this test (certe with no Senegalese data included) and especially since CAF is practically the only federation that actually enforces MRI tests on their male youth competition. You would think Dvorak and Fifa would want to have comprehensive information available proving the viability of their MRI testing for sub-saharan Africa.

I will keep looking, but in the meantime, I suggest we put an asterixis on any mention of the Senegalese youth tests, until we can validate it with publicly available data (and not just FIFA's word).

Actually I have sent Dvorak a direct mail via researchgste requesting information about the Senegal sample. Hopefully, he will respond and I can share whatever he has. I really will be surprised if he didn't sample Senegal and yet includes it in the report. That will be a serious fraud. It isn't just a FIFA issue but about academic integrity.

Good stuff. Hopefully we can soon get to the bottom of this.

Chief Ogbunigwe wrote:

charlie wrote:

Enugu II wrote:

charlie wrote:

Enugu II wrote:charlie,

But is it not inconceivable that you can simply add sample without ever using it. That is fraudulent, as you may know and I doubt that Dvorak can get away with it. My belief is that they did use Senegal, otherwise why would they mention Senegal? What is possible, is that they may have parsed the data in order to produce multiple reports, which is not unusual in research studies. I doubt that you will find a report from then based only on a Senegalese sample but if you do please share. What I think they have done is to use the samples integratively in several of their reports.

charlie wrote:Enugu II,

I have read and re-read the links you shared, and I have still found no proof that Senegal was ever part of the original Dvorak sample data, and in fact, I can prove definitively that Senegal was never part of the original data:

Here is a detailed report of the Dvorak MRI Age determination by MRI study published online in 2006:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2465138/

Please pay attention to Table 2 where it shows the exact break down of adolescents by country:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... objectonly

No Senegal. They were not part of the original 496 adolescents clearly.

Now, I am not saying the Dvorak grading system has not been recalibrated since the original test with Senegalese data. I am just saying that I have yet to see any definitive report explaining exactly when and how Senegalese adolescents participated in such an exercise, at least to the level of detail that we have seen in the links I have shared above.

Yet, at some point (at least from 2009 onwards), Dvorak and FIFA started adding Senegal as one of the countries in their original sample size (which we now know for certain was not the case). So it begs the perfectly valid to question of when Senegalese adolecents were tested and used to calibrate the Dvorak MRI scaling system.

I will keep looking for any study showing in detail the Senegalese MRI test and share what I have as soon as I find anything.

Inconceivable? My brother I am not too sure about that. Afterall, this is FIFA we are talking about and they have a history of fraud and corruption that will rival anyone.

That said, I will still benefit of doubt that somewhere there is data proving Dvorak and his team did their homework and have actually sampled Senegalese data into their original tests as they claim to have done.

I am just stunned that so far, I have seen no actual data/paper/report or study proving this, especially when you consider the wealth of information available describing the baseline test they used to create this test (certe with no Senegalese data included) and especially since CAF is practically the only federation that actually enforces MRI tests on their male youth competition. You would think Dvorak and Fifa would want to have comprehensive information available proving the viability of their MRI testing for sub-saharan Africa.

I will keep looking, but in the meantime, I suggest we put an asterixis on any mention of the Senegalese youth tests, until we can validate it with publicly available data (and not just FIFA's word).

Actually I have sent Dvorak a direct mail via researchgste requesting information about the Senegal sample. Hopefully, he will respond and I can share whatever he has. I really will be surprised if he didn't sample Senegal and yet includes it in the report. That will be a serious fraud. It isn't just a FIFA issue but about academic integrity.

Good stuff. Hopefully we can soon get to the bottom of this.

I hope he responds. Not sure he responded to DaMunk's email back in 2009.

Chief Ogbunigwe wrote:

charlie wrote:

Enugu II wrote:

charlie wrote:

Enugu II wrote:charlie,

But is it not inconceivable that you can simply add sample without ever using it. That is fraudulent, as you may know and I doubt that Dvorak can get away with it. My belief is that they did use Senegal, otherwise why would they mention Senegal? What is possible, is that they may have parsed the data in order to produce multiple reports, which is not unusual in research studies. I doubt that you will find a report from then based only on a Senegalese sample but if you do please share. What I think they have done is to use the samples integratively in several of their reports.

charlie wrote:Enugu II,

I have read and re-read the links you shared, and I have still found no proof that Senegal was ever part of the original Dvorak sample data, and in fact, I can prove definitively that Senegal was never part of the original data:

Here is a detailed report of the Dvorak MRI Age determination by MRI study published online in 2006:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2465138/

Please pay attention to Table 2 where it shows the exact break down of adolescents by country:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... objectonly

No Senegal. They were not part of the original 496 adolescents clearly.

Now, I am not saying the Dvorak grading system has not been recalibrated since the original test with Senegalese data. I am just saying that I have yet to see any definitive report explaining exactly when and how Senegalese adolescents participated in such an exercise, at least to the level of detail that we have seen in the links I have shared above.

Yet, at some point (at least from 2009 onwards), Dvorak and FIFA started adding Senegal as one of the countries in their original sample size (which we now know for certain was not the case). So it begs the perfectly valid to question of when Senegalese adolecents were tested and used to calibrate the Dvorak MRI scaling system.

I will keep looking for any study showing in detail the Senegalese MRI test and share what I have as soon as I find anything.

Inconceivable? My brother I am not too sure about that. Afterall, this is FIFA we are talking about and they have a history of fraud and corruption that will rival anyone.

That said, I will still benefit of doubt that somewhere there is data proving Dvorak and his team did their homework and have actually sampled Senegalese data into their original tests as they claim to have done.

I am just stunned that so far, I have seen no actual data/paper/report or study proving this, especially when you consider the wealth of information available describing the baseline test they used to create this test (certe with no Senegalese data included) and especially since CAF is practically the only federation that actually enforces MRI tests on their male youth competition. You would think Dvorak and Fifa would want to have comprehensive information available proving the viability of their MRI testing for sub-saharan Africa.

I will keep looking, but in the meantime, I suggest we put an asterixis on any mention of the Senegalese youth tests, until we can validate it with publicly available data (and not just FIFA's word).

Actually I have sent Dvorak a direct mail via researchgste requesting information about the Senegal sample. Hopefully, he will respond and I can share whatever he has. I really will be surprised if he didn't sample Senegal and yet includes it in the report. That will be a serious fraud. It isn't just a FIFA issue but about academic integrity.

Good stuff. Hopefully we can soon get to the bottom of this.

I hope he responds. Not sure he responded to DaMunk's email back in 2009.

camex wrote:

Chief Ogbunigwe wrote:
My misgivings about the MRI is a whole new subject entirely. If you have time, check out the article on Pubmed that conducted the study. It was published in the British Journal of Sports Medicine. The abstract alone would make you go mscheeeeeeeeeeew!

Cheers!

ARe you talking about this article?
British Journal of Sports Medicine 2009;43:
Published Online First: 20 October 2009. doi:10.1136/bjsm.2009.067439

Copyright © 2009 BMJ Publishing Group Ltd & British Association of Sport and Exercise Medicine.
EDITORIALS
Detecting over-age players using wrist MRI: science partnering with sport to ensure fair play
Jiri Dvorak
if MRI shows complete fusion of a player’s wrist, the player is likely to be older than 17 years with a certainty of more than 99%.

Thanks for posting this camex. The professor is actually Swiss!
Anyway, I just emailed him from my official work (hospital) email, so I hope to get a response.

Dear Prof Dvorak, I am very interested in your recent article in the British Journal of Sports Medicine regarding efforts at determining the ages of players in age-limited tournaments. According to research cited in your article, 99% of athletes with fused wrists would be over 17 years of age.
I noticed however that you did not mention what percentage of athletes over 17yrs of age could remain unfused. Is there any research on this? Thanks for your help.
'Damunk'

If he responds, I'll let u guys know.

I think it would be important to know whether it is even possible at all for Chukwudi and others like him to actually 'pass' the MRI test, and what the likelihood is, if any.
I think the chances are extremely slim.
I dont think he did the test.

Chief Ogbunigwe wrote:

charlie wrote:

Enugu II wrote:

charlie wrote:

Enugu II wrote:charlie,

But is it not inconceivable that you can simply add sample without ever using it. That is fraudulent, as you may know and I doubt that Dvorak can get away with it. My belief is that they did use Senegal, otherwise why would they mention Senegal? What is possible, is that they may have parsed the data in order to produce multiple reports, which is not unusual in research studies. I doubt that you will find a report from then based only on a Senegalese sample but if you do please share. What I think they have done is to use the samples integratively in several of their reports.

charlie wrote:Enugu II,

I have read and re-read the links you shared, and I have still found no proof that Senegal was ever part of the original Dvorak sample data, and in fact, I can prove definitively that Senegal was never part of the original data:

Here is a detailed report of the Dvorak MRI Age determination by MRI study published online in 2006:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2465138/

Please pay attention to Table 2 where it shows the exact break down of adolescents by country:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... objectonly

No Senegal. They were not part of the original 496 adolescents clearly.

Now, I am not saying the Dvorak grading system has not been recalibrated since the original test with Senegalese data. I am just saying that I have yet to see any definitive report explaining exactly when and how Senegalese adolescents participated in such an exercise, at least to the level of detail that we have seen in the links I have shared above.

Yet, at some point (at least from 2009 onwards), Dvorak and FIFA started adding Senegal as one of the countries in their original sample size (which we now know for certain was not the case). So it begs the perfectly valid to question of when Senegalese adolecents were tested and used to calibrate the Dvorak MRI scaling system.

I will keep looking for any study showing in detail the Senegalese MRI test and share what I have as soon as I find anything.

Inconceivable? My brother I am not too sure about that. Afterall, this is FIFA we are talking about and they have a history of fraud and corruption that will rival anyone.

That said, I will still benefit of doubt that somewhere there is data proving Dvorak and his team did their homework and have actually sampled Senegalese data into their original tests as they claim to have done.

I am just stunned that so far, I have seen no actual data/paper/report or study proving this, especially when you consider the wealth of information available describing the baseline test they used to create this test (certe with no Senegalese data included) and especially since CAF is practically the only federation that actually enforces MRI tests on their male youth competition. You would think Dvorak and Fifa would want to have comprehensive information available proving the viability of their MRI testing for sub-saharan Africa.

I will keep looking, but in the meantime, I suggest we put an asterixis on any mention of the Senegalese youth tests, until we can validate it with publicly available data (and not just FIFA's word).

Actually I have sent Dvorak a direct mail via researchgste requesting information about the Senegal sample. Hopefully, he will respond and I can share whatever he has. I really will be surprised if he didn't sample Senegal and yet includes it in the report. That will be a serious fraud. It isn't just a FIFA issue but about academic integrity.

Good stuff. Hopefully we can soon get to the bottom of this.

I hope he responds. Not sure he responded to DaMunk's email back in 2009.

charlie wrote:

Chief Ogbunigwe wrote:

charlie wrote:

Enugu II wrote:

charlie wrote:

Enugu II wrote:charlie,

But is it not inconceivable that you can simply add sample without ever using it. That is fraudulent, as you may know and I doubt that Dvorak can get away with it. My belief is that they did use Senegal, otherwise why would they mention Senegal? What is possible, is that they may have parsed the data in order to produce multiple reports, which is not unusual in research studies. I doubt that you will find a report from then based only on a Senegalese sample but if you do please share. What I think they have done is to use the samples integratively in several of their reports.

charlie wrote:Enugu II,

I have read and re-read the links you shared, and I have still found no proof that Senegal was ever part of the original Dvorak sample data, and in fact, I can prove definitively that Senegal was never part of the original data:

Here is a detailed report of the Dvorak MRI Age determination by MRI study published online in 2006:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2465138/

Please pay attention to Table 2 where it shows the exact break down of adolescents by country:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articl ... objectonly

No Senegal. They were not part of the original 496 adolescents clearly.

Now, I am not saying the Dvorak grading system has not been recalibrated since the original test with Senegalese data. I am just saying that I have yet to see any definitive report explaining exactly when and how Senegalese adolescents participated in such an exercise, at least to the level of detail that we have seen in the links I have shared above.

Yet, at some point (at least from 2009 onwards), Dvorak and FIFA started adding Senegal as one of the countries in their original sample size (which we now know for certain was not the case). So it begs the perfectly valid to question of when Senegalese adolecents were tested and used to calibrate the Dvorak MRI scaling system.

I will keep looking for any study showing in detail the Senegalese MRI test and share what I have as soon as I find anything.

Inconceivable? My brother I am not too sure about that. Afterall, this is FIFA we are talking about and they have a history of fraud and corruption that will rival anyone.

That said, I will still benefit of doubt that somewhere there is data proving Dvorak and his team did their homework and have actually sampled Senegalese data into their original tests as they claim to have done.

I am just stunned that so far, I have seen no actual data/paper/report or study proving this, especially when you consider the wealth of information available describing the baseline test they used to create this test (certe with no Senegalese data included) and especially since CAF is practically the only federation that actually enforces MRI tests on their male youth competition. You would think Dvorak and Fifa would want to have comprehensive information available proving the viability of their MRI testing for sub-saharan Africa.

I will keep looking, but in the meantime, I suggest we put an asterixis on any mention of the Senegalese youth tests, until we can validate it with publicly available data (and not just FIFA's word).

Actually I have sent Dvorak a direct mail via researchgste requesting information about the Senegal sample. Hopefully, he will respond and I can share whatever he has. I really will be surprised if he didn't sample Senegal and yet includes it in the report. That will be a serious fraud. It isn't just a FIFA issue but about academic integrity.

Good stuff. Hopefully we can soon get to the bottom of this.

I hope he responds. Not sure he responded to DaMunk's email back in 2009.

*** Bumping this thread back up so we dont forget ***

Bros Enugu II. Any response received from Dvorak on the sample data set he used to calibrate his MRI resonance scan test for FIFA age group tournaments???

Enyi wrote:What exactly is the purpose of this thread.....MRI scanning of youth players is a good thing for Nigeria, it means that players that pass are u-17 and cannot, in any circumstance, be over that age. if however, you fail....that those not necessarily mean that your an age cheat.....

what this means that we can now stop this age cheating accusations of our junior teams.....thus if the u-17 hammer a team 15-0, it is not because they are age cheats, its is purely based on talent.