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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:06 pm 
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Arsenal insert surprising clause in Nigerian’s contract

Arsenal apparently inserted a ‘mandatory purchase’ clause in Kelechi Nwakali’s loan deal with Porto in what seems a surprising bit of news coming out of Portugal.

Nwakali is very highly rated and was expected to be moving closer to time playing within Arsenal’s setup, but a report from Portugal claims that Porto will be required to buy him for €4m should he make more than 10 appearances for their first team.

So far, the Nigerian midfielder has made four appearances for their B team.


Speaking after he left the club on loan again in July, Nwakali was very clear that he saw his future with Arsenal, so this would seem to be a surprising clause if it exists.

”If Porto thought I had nothing to add, they wouldn’t have brought me to come to Portugal. So, I hope to get the chance and I believe I can do it; all I need is the chance,” Nwakali told aoifootball.com.

”Coach Amuneke once taught me that every chance you get, you should learn. So, that is it for me here at FC Porto. I came here to add to my knowledge.

”It is a good move for me. It’s the kind of improvement for me to keep developing and that will be until I get my work permit and have a chance to play in England.

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”I’m a young footballer still growing and I hope to learn from players at the club.”

Speaking again just after his move to Porto was confirmed, Nwakali, whose brother Chidiebere plays for Manchester City’s youngsters, also said he hoped this move would help him ‘evolve’ as a player.

“My main goal is to develop and evolve as a player, to improve my qualities and the other aspects that I know I need to correct to grow in the way I play,” he told CompleteSportsNigeria.

“I think FC Porto is the right place to evolve as a player.

“I know Porto very well, because one of my idols in football played here: Deco. He was a player that I loved to watch and I hope one day being able to meet him and tell him the importance he had in my desire to be a football player.”

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Nwakali already made an impression at Dutch second division side MVV Maastricht, although his loan with VVV Venlo didn’t go quite so well. He returned to Arsenal and then headed back to MVV Maastricht to get regular game time.

He impressed fans with his quick feet and tight close control that allowed him to glide through midfield. On top of that, he showed an eye for a pass, an ability to switch play as well as thread passes through defences.

The technical level of his game is already very high, and only needs to be tempered by more experience on the pitch.

He scored seven goals and created five in 52 appearances for MVV Maastricht and it is really hard to believe that this ‘mandatory purchase’ clause exists.

http://dailycannon.com/2018/09/arsenal- ... -contract/


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:24 pm 
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Could this be why he is with the B team ?

Because they do not want to be forced to buy the player if he makes 10 appearances.

Perhaps they want to have a good look at him in the B team, whereas they will not be obliged to buy him no matter how many appearances he makes there.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:27 pm 
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Why are all our top prospects tied to all these loan deals. If he was a Brasilians or french or some Spanish kid, they will be lining him up for some first team. How did Ndidi do it abeg?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:31 pm 
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vancity eagle wrote:
Could this be why he is with the B team ?

Because they do not want to be forced to buy the player if he makes 10 appearances.

Perhaps they want to have a good look at him in the B team, whereas they will not be obliged to buy him no matter how many appearances he makes there.

Of course they are not mugus, they are not ready to be railroaded into buying him until they are sure. The thing is, you start asking questions after the first loan why the player is still not deemed good enough to be on the first team books of the parent club or why the club he was sent to did not deem him good enough for outright purchase..

That boy is better of anything than that Xhaka Arsenal is making to look like some Dunga

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:31 pm 
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oloye wrote:
Why are all our top prospects tied to all these loan deals. If he was a Brasilians or french or some Spanish kid, they will be lining him up for some first team. How did Ndidi do it abeg?


Brazilian and Spanish kids get sent out on loan all the time, Ndidi joined a smaller team where the barrier to entry was considerably lower.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:42 pm 
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kalani JR wrote:
oloye wrote:
Why are all our top prospects tied to all these loan deals. If he was a Brasilians or french or some Spanish kid, they will be lining him up for some first team. How did Ndidi do it abeg?


Brazilian and Spanish kids get sent out on loan all the time, Ndidi joined a smaller team where the barrier to entry was considerably lower.

I know they get sent out on loans...now read what I wrote carefully and see if you can spot the difference. Nwakali came back from the U17 as what again?.....if that was ...aghh no worries , you won't understand me :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:42 pm 
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oloye wrote:
Why are all our top prospects tied to all these loan deals. If he was a Brasilians or french or some Spanish kid, they will be lining him up for some first team. How did Ndidi do it abeg?


He went to Belgium and played first team football and even played in the Europa Cup. I don’t think it wise for our young players to go to the Top EPL teams having never played for the Eagles they won’t get a work permit and will be loaned out eventually ending up in the backwater leagues. The Manager that signed Kelechi has gone.

Look at Simon Moses and Kalu they both played first team football in Belgium and have moved up to better teams and leagues they both would qualify to play in the EPL. If I were Kelechi adviser I would be advocating for a move to the Belgium first division.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:54 pm 
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Flex Swift wrote:
oloye wrote:
Why are all our top prospects tied to all these loan deals. If he was a Brasilians or french or some Spanish kid, they will be lining him up for some first team. How did Ndidi do it abeg?


He went to Belgium and played first team football and even played in the Europa Cup. I don’t think it wise for our young players to go to the Top EPL teams having never played for the Eagles they won’t get a work permit and will be loaned out eventually ending up in the backwater leagues. The Manager that signed Kelechi has gone.

Look at Simon Moses and Kalu they both played first team football in Belgium and have moved up to better teams and leagues they both would qualify to play in the EPL. If I were Kelechi adviser I would be advocating for a move to the Belgium first division.

You have answered my question with this take....these nonsense loan deals does not help their career progression. What I saw of that boy 2 or 3 years ago was enough to get him into a decent club and for him to build upon. The MVP of the world cup should not be where he is still be tossed around from one club to another in a cat and mouse game called loan deals. That was why I asked how did Ndidi do it. Sometimes it is best to go for where you will be in the team and can right away build on the talent, rather than this distraction this loan business has become.

Look at all the players have on their loan books,how many of them have progressed beyond the usual rubbish where they get farmed out like labourers and return home to roost at the end of the season. Some 4 seasons ago,I though Kalas was the big deal,4 years after he cannot even get a permanent deal with Fulham. But the Dutch guy who plays for Bournemouth Ake, did the right thing jumping out of the cycle to get a permanent deal with Bournemouth, his career has progressed.

Look at the french kid, the central defender now at Everton...another one who wasted his time at Chelsea loan farm, while the likes of Umtiti have since surpassed him.

The loan farm just like money in the hands of loan sharks is a bad business for players. Look at Omeruo...after two world cups...where is his career today.

Our top prospects need to be wary of these rubbish loan deals , especially if they have it in mind to develop their career.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:55 pm 
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oloye wrote:
Why are all our top prospects tied to all these loan deals. If he was a Brasilians or french or some Spanish kid, they will be lining him up for some first team. How did Ndidi do it abeg?


First its by country rank with Nigeria ranked so low our players have to use the exception rule/point system:

The required percentages of competitive senior international matches are determined by that country’s FIFA World Ranking over the relevant one or two-year period as follows:

FIFA Ranking 1-10: 30% and above
FIFA Ranking 11-20: 45% and above
FIFA Ranking 21-30: 60% and above
FIFA Ranking 31-50: 75% and above

----

Transfer fees and wages are part of this point system. I believe this was the case with Ndidi and Success, their clubs paid high enough transfer fees for them and/or they are top wage earners, see the criteria below for exceptions. The likes of Onyekuru etc do not fit these criteria...

Part A - Objective Criteria

Criteria Points
The transfer fee paid for the player is above the 75th percentile of qualifying transfers. 3
The transfer fee paid for the player is between the 50th and 75th percentile of qualifying transfers. 2
The player’s wages are above the 75th percentile of qualifying wages. 3
The player’s wages are between the 50th and 75th percentile of qualifying wages. 2
The player’s current club is in a top league and the player has played in at least 30% of available minutes. 1
The player’s current club has played in the group stages or onwards of a continental competition within the last 12 months and the player has played in at least 30% of the available minutes. 1

https://www.reevaldo.com/story/2016/9/1 ... gn-players

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:55 pm 
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vancity eagle wrote:
Could this be why he is with the B team ?

Because they do not want to be forced to buy the player if he makes 10 appearances.

Perhaps they want to have a good look at him in the B team, whereas they will not be obliged to buy him no matter how many appearances he makes there.


Perhaps, however, Porto's main interest is in figuring out how any player can help them now. If Nwakali can help the A team now, they will play him. 4 million is peanuts in today's transfer market.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:56 pm 
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vancity eagle wrote:
Could this be why he is with the B team ?

Because they do not want to be forced to buy the player if he makes 10 appearances.

Perhaps they want to have a good look at him in the B team, whereas they will not be obliged to buy him no matter how many appearances he makes there.


That's agents talk!

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:57 pm 
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metalalloy wrote:
vancity eagle wrote:
Could this be why he is with the B team ?

Because they do not want to be forced to buy the player if he makes 10 appearances.

Perhaps they want to have a good look at him in the B team, whereas they will not be obliged to buy him no matter how many appearances he makes there.


Perhaps, however, Porto's main interest is in figuring out how any player can help them now. If Nwakali can help the A team now, they will play him. 4 million is peanuts in today's transfer market.

Not for the likes of Porto my brother

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 4:59 pm 
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maceo4 wrote:
oloye wrote:
Why are all our top prospects tied to all these loan deals. If he was a Brasilians or french or some Spanish kid, they will be lining him up for some first team. How did Ndidi do it abeg?


First its by country rank with Nigeria ranked so low our players have to use the exception rule/point system:

The required percentages of competitive senior international matches are determined by that country’s FIFA World Ranking over the relevant one or two-year period as follows:

FIFA Ranking 1-10: 30% and above
FIFA Ranking 11-20: 45% and above
FIFA Ranking 21-30: 60% and above
FIFA Ranking 31-50: 75% and above

----

Transfer fees and wages are part of this point system. I believe this was the case with Ndidi and Success, their clubs paid high enough transfer fees for them and/or they are top wage earners, see the criteria below for exceptions. The likes of Onyekuru etc do not fit these criteria...

Part A - Objective Criteria

Criteria Points
The transfer fee paid for the player is above the 75th percentile of qualifying transfers. 3
The transfer fee paid for the player is between the 50th and 75th percentile of qualifying transfers. 2
The player’s wages are above the 75th percentile of qualifying wages. 3
The player’s wages are between the 50th and 75th percentile of qualifying wages. 2
The player’s current club is in a top league and the player has played in at least 30% of available minutes. 1
The player’s current club has played in the group stages or onwards of a continental competition within the last 12 months and the player has played in at least 30% of the available minutes. 1

https://www.reevaldo.com/story/2016/9/1 ... gn-players

Are you talking about work permit? Because this is not the point I was trying to make.

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"There is big pressure at this club as you cannot be like the manager at Arsenal and ask for five years to try and to win one trophy" - Jose Mourinho

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:08 pm 
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oloye wrote:
maceo4 wrote:
oloye wrote:
Why are all our top prospects tied to all these loan deals. If he was a Brasilians or french or some Spanish kid, they will be lining him up for some first team. How did Ndidi do it abeg?


First its by country rank with Nigeria ranked so low our players have to use the exception rule/point system:

The required percentages of competitive senior international matches are determined by that country’s FIFA World Ranking over the relevant one or two-year period as follows:

FIFA Ranking 1-10: 30% and above
FIFA Ranking 11-20: 45% and above
FIFA Ranking 21-30: 60% and above
FIFA Ranking 31-50: 75% and above

----

Transfer fees and wages are part of this point system. I believe this was the case with Ndidi and Success, their clubs paid high enough transfer fees for them and/or they are top wage earners, see the criteria below for exceptions. The likes of Onyekuru etc do not fit these criteria...

Part A - Objective Criteria

Criteria Points
The transfer fee paid for the player is above the 75th percentile of qualifying transfers. 3
The transfer fee paid for the player is between the 50th and 75th percentile of qualifying transfers. 2
The player’s wages are above the 75th percentile of qualifying wages. 3
The player’s wages are between the 50th and 75th percentile of qualifying wages. 2
The player’s current club is in a top league and the player has played in at least 30% of available minutes. 1
The player’s current club has played in the group stages or onwards of a continental competition within the last 12 months and the player has played in at least 30% of the available minutes. 1

https://www.reevaldo.com/story/2016/9/1 ... gn-players

Are you talking about work permit? Because this is not the point I was trying to make.


Maybe I misunderstood your point (please clarify abeg), but if these players were able to get work permits with their parent clubs they wouldn't need to go out on loan....its why Ndidi didn't have to go out on loan, they paid enough to get him the permit...

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:12 pm 
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oloye wrote:
metalalloy wrote:
vancity eagle wrote:
Could this be why he is with the B team ?

Because they do not want to be forced to buy the player if he makes 10 appearances.

Perhaps they want to have a good look at him in the B team, whereas they will not be obliged to buy him no matter how many appearances he makes there.


Perhaps, however, Porto's main interest is in figuring out how any player can help them now. If Nwakali can help the A team now, they will play him. 4 million is peanuts in today's transfer market.

Not for the likes of Porto my brother



Hmm good point. They were struggling financially a couple of years ago.

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We have been brainwashed by the Premier League that it's the best in the world. Nonsense. It's the best brand
Roy Keane: ITV 02/25/14

He says that we are currently "brainwashed" into believing that the Premier League is the best competition in the world, and that we are now a long way off dominating the Champions League again.
Gary Neville: Mirror: 12/23/14

I think Spain’s by far the best league.
Scholes. UK Guardian 9/6/16


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:17 pm 
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maceo4 wrote:
oloye wrote:
maceo4 wrote:
oloye wrote:
Why are all our top prospects tied to all these loan deals. If he was a Brasilians or french or some Spanish kid, they will be lining him up for some first team. How did Ndidi do it abeg?


First its by country rank with Nigeria ranked so low our players have to use the exception rule/point system:

The required percentages of competitive senior international matches are determined by that country’s FIFA World Ranking over the relevant one or two-year period as follows:

FIFA Ranking 1-10: 30% and above
FIFA Ranking 11-20: 45% and above
FIFA Ranking 21-30: 60% and above
FIFA Ranking 31-50: 75% and above

----

Transfer fees and wages are part of this point system. I believe this was the case with Ndidi and Success, their clubs paid high enough transfer fees for them and/or they are top wage earners, see the criteria below for exceptions. The likes of Onyekuru etc do not fit these criteria...

Part A - Objective Criteria

Criteria Points
The transfer fee paid for the player is above the 75th percentile of qualifying transfers. 3
The transfer fee paid for the player is between the 50th and 75th percentile of qualifying transfers. 2
The player’s wages are above the 75th percentile of qualifying wages. 3
The player’s wages are between the 50th and 75th percentile of qualifying wages. 2
The player’s current club is in a top league and the player has played in at least 30% of available minutes. 1
The player’s current club has played in the group stages or onwards of a continental competition within the last 12 months and the player has played in at least 30% of the available minutes. 1

https://www.reevaldo.com/story/2016/9/1 ... gn-players

Are you talking about work permit? Because this is not the point I was trying to make.


Maybe I misunderstood your point (please clarify abeg), but if these players were able to get work permits with their parent clubs they wouldn't need to go out on loan....its why Ndidi didn't have to go out on loan, they paid enough to get him the permit...

Let me even go along with your take.....so basically he has to keep going on loan until he fulfils the requirements to obtain work permit..is the required number of international games. How does that help him. It makes my argument against these loan farms valid howbeit from an angle I was not even looking at.

Someone need to educate these young folks especially along the line of the information you made available. Our top prospects should go to teams where they can progress as opposed to going into some labour camp called loan arrangement.

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.... I believe in God. I try to be a good man so He can have a bit of time to give me a hand when I need it - Jose Mourinho


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 5:44 pm 
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oloye wrote:
maceo4 wrote:
oloye wrote:
maceo4 wrote:
oloye wrote:
Why are all our top prospects tied to all these loan deals. If he was a Brasilians or french or some Spanish kid, they will be lining him up for some first team. How did Ndidi do it abeg?


First its by country rank with Nigeria ranked so low our players have to use the exception rule/point system:

The required percentages of competitive senior international matches are determined by that country’s FIFA World Ranking over the relevant one or two-year period as follows:

FIFA Ranking 1-10: 30% and above
FIFA Ranking 11-20: 45% and above
FIFA Ranking 21-30: 60% and above
FIFA Ranking 31-50: 75% and above

----

Transfer fees and wages are part of this point system. I believe this was the case with Ndidi and Success, their clubs paid high enough transfer fees for them and/or they are top wage earners, see the criteria below for exceptions. The likes of Onyekuru etc do not fit these criteria...

Part A - Objective Criteria

Criteria Points
The transfer fee paid for the player is above the 75th percentile of qualifying transfers. 3
The transfer fee paid for the player is between the 50th and 75th percentile of qualifying transfers. 2
The player’s wages are above the 75th percentile of qualifying wages. 3
The player’s wages are between the 50th and 75th percentile of qualifying wages. 2
The player’s current club is in a top league and the player has played in at least 30% of available minutes. 1
The player’s current club has played in the group stages or onwards of a continental competition within the last 12 months and the player has played in at least 30% of the available minutes. 1

https://www.reevaldo.com/story/2016/9/1 ... gn-players

Are you talking about work permit? Because this is not the point I was trying to make.


Maybe I misunderstood your point (please clarify abeg), but if these players were able to get work permits with their parent clubs they wouldn't need to go out on loan....its why Ndidi didn't have to go out on loan, they paid enough to get him the permit...

Let me even go along with your take.....so basically he has to keep going on loan until he fulfils the requirements to obtain work permit..is the required number of international games. How does that help him. It makes my argument against these loan farms valid howbeit from an angle I was not even looking at.

Someone need to educate these young folks especially along the line of the information you made available. Our top prospects should go to teams where they can progress as opposed to going into some labour camp called loan arrangement.


I get your point, but I guess I got hung up on Ndidi as his example doesn't quite fit. He just was lucky to go to a Belgian club where he could play in Europa (he went to Genk on trials first as a defender and was sent back before getting a contract a year later - Gent paid a whopping $78,000 for him :ohmy: ). But based on his performances and his tag as the new Kante his club wouldn't let him go to Kante's old club for measly money after selling Kante for a large sum - which turned out to be a blessing as it allowed him to get a work permit.

But the truth is the EPL is the end all and be all for our players b/c of wages. So if an EPL club came calling from the jump like with the Nwakali's, Iheanachos etc I'm sure Ndidi would have jumped on the deal. I don't think any Nigerian player in their right mind would pass it up. At the end of the day you are still owned by an EPL club. Look at Onyekuru when he got his knee injury, he went back to the top facilities at Everton where they took good care of him and got him the best doctors to work on him. He might not have gotten the same level of care with his Belgian club.

To me the issue with the likes of Omeruo isn't being loaned out, its lack of improvement while on loan. His first loan spells were twice with Middlesbrough where if he showed enough he could have been bought by a smaller EPL club, but he couldn't beat out the 'great' duo of Daniel Ayala and Ben Gibson for a starting spot at Boro which is what has led to all his further loan spells outside of England.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 6:13 pm 
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metalalloy wrote:
oloye wrote:
metalalloy wrote:
vancity eagle wrote:
Could this be why he is with the B team ?

Because they do not want to be forced to buy the player if he makes 10 appearances.

Perhaps they want to have a good look at him in the B team, whereas they will not be obliged to buy him no matter how many appearances he makes there.


Perhaps, however, Porto's main interest is in figuring out how any player can help them now. If Nwakali can help the A team now, they will play him. 4 million is peanuts in today's transfer market.

Not for the likes of Porto my brother



Hmm good point. They were struggling financially a couple of years ago.



You should check how many Barca B and Real Madrid Casillas players have come thru Porto and on to much bigger things in the last few years.

If he was good enough they would've played him already...

Given the well established doubts about the age of our players, I would take the MVP accomplishment with a generous dose of salt...

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:31 pm 
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txj wrote:
metalalloy wrote:
oloye wrote:
metalalloy wrote:
vancity eagle wrote:
Could this be why he is with the B team ?

Because they do not want to be forced to buy the player if he makes 10 appearances.

Perhaps they want to have a good look at him in the B team, whereas they will not be obliged to buy him no matter how many appearances he makes there.


Perhaps, however, Porto's main interest is in figuring out how any player can help them now. If Nwakali can help the A team now, they will play him. 4 million is peanuts in today's transfer market.

Not for the likes of Porto my brother



Hmm good point. They were struggling financially a couple of years ago.



You should check how many Barca B and Real Madrid Casillas players have come thru Porto and on to much bigger things in the last few years.

If he was good enough they would've played him already...

Given the well established doubts about the age of our players, I would take the MVP accomplishment with a generous dose of salt...



True, but without knowing how many of those players had a similar clause in their contracts (assuming it does exist in Nwakali's), that isn't really relevant to Nwakali's situation. If playing him for 10 games obligates Porto to purchase him, then as a club that was recently sanctioned for not breaking even on their spending and trading in violation of FPP, they have to be absolutely certain that he is worth a full signing, so, a scenario where they would restrict the number for first teams appearances to ascertain his true quality is plausible.

As far as I'm aware, there hasn't been any issues raised about Nwakali's age. A team like Arsenal is well aware of our age cheating history, and must have done their due dilligence in signing and retaining him.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 7:46 pm 
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What or who is the source of this story? People are already offering opinions on an unsubstantiated story.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 11, 2018 8:04 pm 
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Cally wrote:
What or who is the source of this story? People are already offering opinions on an unsubstantiated story.



Yea i also doubt the accuracy of the story which is why in my response to TJX i said "assuming it does exist in Nwakali's). When the transfer was announced, the stories said that Porto has an option to buy after a year. Even Transfr market shows there is an option.

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We have been brainwashed by the Premier League that it's the best in the world. Nonsense. It's the best brand
Roy Keane: ITV 02/25/14

He says that we are currently "brainwashed" into believing that the Premier League is the best competition in the world, and that we are now a long way off dominating the Champions League again.
Gary Neville: Mirror: 12/23/14

I think Spain’s by far the best league.
Scholes. UK Guardian 9/6/16


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 1:30 pm 
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Maybe the issue is our boy isn’t quite good enough yet. Simple as that. At this point in time, Nwakali should be bossing lower level environments like Dutch league 1, Porto B and certainly Liberian geriatrics and part timers but he is not. The real sad thing for me is I only realized that he was on the field vs Liberia 40 mins into the first half. For a while I thought we only had etebo & Ndidi in midfield. The problem is the player and not the loan system. And no matter how broke Porto is, as a going concern, they definitely can afford 4 million. Definitely, he needs a new club that will provide him a permanent home anywhere in Europe’s lower leagues. Arsenal has no plan for the boys future. That much is obvious. Loaning is not the problem. Moses, Christensen, Traore, Ake, etc have moved onto permanent jobs in top European leagues. If you are good enough you will be picked up.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 2:10 pm 
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green4life wrote:
Maybe the issue is our boy isn’t quite good enough yet. Simple as that. At this point in time, Nwakali should be bossing lower level environments like Dutch league 1, Porto B and certainly Liberian geriatrics and part timers but he is not. The real sad thing for me is I only realized that he was on the field vs Liberia 40 mins into the first half. For a while I thought we only had etebo & Ndidi in midfield. The problem is the player and not the loan system. And no matter how broke Porto is, as a going concern, they definitely can afford 4 million. Definitely, he needs a new club that will provide him a permanent home anywhere in Europe’s lower leagues. Arsenal has no plan for the boys future. That much is obvious. Loaning is not the problem. Moses, Christensen, Traore, Ake, etc have moved onto permanent jobs in top European leagues. If you are good enough you will be picked up.


You wan kill Ayo's dreams? Bobo got the chance to play the no. 10 position and he just didn't stand out as an elite player, kinda just got lost in the shuffle. Hopefully he gets more chances to show his stuff, but like you said he might just not be ready yet...

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