Pinnick my Hero

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Cmoke
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Re: Pinnick my Hero

Post by Cmoke »

Dunno nada about Rohr contract but I remember Keshi’s contract holding him responsible for scouting new Naija players local and foreign
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Re: Pinnick my Hero

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Cmoke wrote:Dunno nada about Rohr contract but I remember Keshi’s contract holding him responsible for scouting new Naija players local and foreign
I think 'scouting' is slightly different. It is every coach's responsibility to find new players for his/her team.

What seems to be in contention here is who takes the responsibility for 'producing' such players. I'd say a National team coach shouldn't have that responsibility. He spots a player that has a lot to offer and invites him because he sees where the player can fit into his jigsaw made up of elite parts (his national team players).
Grooming young players is an ill-affordable luxury in the very limited time a national coach has with his players. Moreover, Nigerians just don't have the stomach to endure the pain that comes with trial and the inevitable error that will occur. One defeat and the "sack!" calls come flooding in. :roll:

So any such gifted young player is expected to have excelled in the league even amongst more experienced opponents. He should not only excel but also have the potential to displace a player already in the national squad.

Only then should he get scouted, in my opinion.
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Re: Pinnick my Hero

Post by Cmoke »

My broda,

I think you need to read up on how Westehoff was able to scout and develope Amokachi from our local league!

Sometimes a player’s future depends on the coach. If Oliseh is still in charge I bet Chima Akas will be our left back!

Talents go waste for Naija if this coach keeps focusing solely on Europe born players.
Cmoke

Damunk wrote:
Cmoke wrote:Dunno nada about Rohr contract but I remember Keshi’s contract holding him responsible for scouting new Naija players local and foreign
I think 'scouting' is slightly different. It is every coach's responsibility to find new players for his/her team.

What seems to be in contention here is who takes the responsibility for 'producing' such players. I'd say a National team coach shouldn't have that responsibility. He spots a player that has a lot to offer and invites him because he sees where the player can fit into his jigsaw made up of elite parts (his national team players).
Grooming young players is an ill-affordable luxury in the very limited time a national coach has with his players. Moreover, Nigerians just don't have the stomach to endure the pain that comes with trial and the inevitable error that will occur. One defeat and the "sack!" calls come flooding in. :roll:

So any such gifted young player is expected to have excelled in the league even amongst more experienced opponents. He should not only excel but also have the potential to displace a player already in the national squad.

Only then should he get scouted, in my opinion.
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Re: Pinnick my Hero

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My broda,

I think you need to read up on how Westehoff was able to scout and develope Amokachi from our local league!

Sometimes a player’s future depends on the coach. If Oliseh is still in charge I bet Chima Akas will be our left back!

Talents go waste for Naija if this coach keeps focusing solely on Europe born players.
Cmoke

Damunk wrote:
Cmoke wrote:Dunno nada about Rohr contract but I remember Keshi’s contract holding him responsible for scouting new Naija players local and foreign
I think 'scouting' is slightly different. It is every coach's responsibility to find new players for his/her team.

What seems to be in contention here is who takes the responsibility for 'producing' such players. I'd say a National team coach shouldn't have that responsibility. He spots a player that has a lot to offer and invites him because he sees where the player can fit into his jigsaw made up of elite parts (his national team players).
Grooming young players is an ill-affordable luxury in the very limited time a national coach has with his players. Moreover, Nigerians just don't have the stomach to endure the pain that comes with trial and the inevitable error that will occur. One defeat and the "sack!" calls come flooding in. :roll:

So any such gifted young player is expected to have excelled in the league even amongst more experienced opponents. He should not only excel but also have the potential to displace a player already in the national squad.

Only then should he get scouted, in my opinion.
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Re: Pinnick my Hero

Post by fabio »

Uncle Damunk, going on a rant again. No one asked Rohr to produce any player. Just scout for players in the league and give them equal opportunity.
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Re: Pinnick my Hero

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fabio wrote:Uncle Damunk, going on a rant again. No one asked Rohr to produce any player. Just scout for players in the league and give them equal opportunity.
You seem to be looking for my attention a lot nowadays.
I'm trying to figure out why. :idea:
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Re: Pinnick my Hero

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Damunk wrote:You seem to be looking for my attention a lot nowadays.
I'm trying to figure out why. :idea:
I will leave that you 1naija. Please address the points made. Rohr should scout not develop.
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Re: Pinnick my Hero

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fabio wrote:
Damunk wrote:You seem to be looking for my attention a lot nowadays.
I'm trying to figure out why. :idea:
I will leave that you 1naija. Please address the points made. Rohr should scout not develop.
You obviously don't read much.
This is about the third, maybe fourth time that I am sending you back to go and read my posts.
Take a hint: concentrate. And stop firing cheap shots which invariably turn out to be blanks. :roll:

Now go back and read - and understand - what I have said about scouting.

If you still don't get it, come back 'once more again' and I WILL PRINT IT OUT FOR YOU IN LARGE BOLD PRINT.
Jees fabio...you dey fall your own hand on a daily basis.
Any problem? :???:
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Re: Pinnick my Hero

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Damunk wrote:
fabio wrote:
Damunk wrote:You seem to be looking for my attention a lot nowadays.
I'm trying to figure out why. :idea:
I will leave that you 1naija. Please address the points made. Rohr should scout not develop.
You obviously don't read much.
This is about the third, maybe fourth time that I am sending you back to go and read my posts.
Take a hint: concentrate.
Now go back and read - and understand - what I have said about scouting.

If you still don't get it, come back 'once more again' and I WILL PRINT IT OUT FOR YOU IN LARGE BOLD PRINT.
Jees fabio...you dey fall your own hand on a daily basis.
Any problem? :???:
I agree I fall your hand, no vex. Please have you read up what Cmoke said about Amokachi?
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Re: Pinnick my Hero

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fabio wrote:
Damunk wrote:
fabio wrote:
Damunk wrote:You seem to be looking for my attention a lot nowadays.
I'm trying to figure out why. :idea:
I will leave that you 1naija. Please address the points made. Rohr should scout not develop.
You obviously don't read much.
This is about the third, maybe fourth time that I am sending you back to go and read my posts.
Take a hint: concentrate.
Now go back and read - and understand - what I have said about scouting.

If you still don't get it, come back 'once more again' and I WILL PRINT IT OUT FOR YOU IN LARGE BOLD PRINT.
Jees fabio...you dey fall your own hand on a daily basis.
Any problem? :???:
I agree I fall your hand, no vex. Please have you read up what Cmoke said about Amokachi?
First things first.
Have you read about what I said about 'producing' and scouting? :idea:
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Re: Pinnick my Hero

Post by fabio »

Damunk wrote: First things first.
Have you read about what I said about 'producing' and scouting? :idea:
I have read it and I apologize.
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Re: Pinnick my Hero

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fabio wrote:
Damunk wrote: First things first.
Have you read about what I said about 'producing' and scouting? :idea:
I have read it and I apologize.
Sorry too.
Anyway, regarding Cmoke's 'Amokachi/Westerhoff' point, I actually addressed it immediately and extensively only for my laptop to die and I lost everything.
Naim you come take over thread. :D

In summary I was saying the football climate in Nigeria and the world over has changed in the 25-30 years since Westerhoff was in charge. The local untapped talent available to Westerhoff back then is no longer available in such quantities for Rohr to mine.
1. Our best established talent is being cherry-picked by outside clubs who are offering better conditions of employment.
2. Our most talented youths are similarly being stolen from the womb by scouts even before they are establishing themselves in the adult game.

This is all being driven by the internet with increasing visibility of foreign leagues on our screens. There is now a wider and more immediate choice for our players and dem no send. The football skills drain simply mirrors our brain drain part of which you and I both belong. :oops:

Don't forget that even Amokachi (and Finidi and Kanu and Okocha and possibly even Amuneke) were not even 'local' finds. They were already playing abroad. So this Westerhoff's local talent narrative is not even entirely true.

In fact fabio, I am sure this fact was pointed out to you here a few weeks ago.
Are you being clever?

Make I go check....
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Re: Pinnick my Hero

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Otitokoro wrote: Evidence of this is when you have the likes of Okpotu and Lakosa failing in trials for a Bulgarian Div 2 club and most recently, a Chinese Div 2 club. These were supposedly the top domestic league scorers and supposedly the best the domestic league had to offer!!!
So, this begs the question for the 'local player' protagonists: why would you want to force someone into the National team whose talent has plateaued and who has no hope of getting better?
This is using stats wrongly to prove a point. What about Stephen Odey.

Stephen Odey (7goals) and Onuachi (8goals) are also turning their leagues inside out.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=289872&start=138
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Re: Pinnick my Hero

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Damunk wrote: In fact fabio, I am sure this fact was pointed out to you here a few weeks ago.
Are you being clever?

Make I go check....
Damn. See as you just send me message for nuttin.

We don discuss the whole shebang of this very point already. I'm now repeating myself.
Pls pay particular attention to metalalloy's direct response to you:
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=291587
metalalloy wrote:A few facts:
Finidi George joined Ajax in 1993.
Amokachi joined Brugge in 1990
Sunday Oliseh joined Liege in 1990.
The 1994 cup winning side only had TWO (2) HB players (Fuludu and Semitoje) out of a 23 man squad who barely played minutes at the tourney.

But don't worry, don't let the facts get in the way of your narrative. By all means do carry on. :lol:
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Re: Pinnick my Hero

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Damunk wrote:Don't forget that even Amokachi (and Finidi and Kanu and Okocha and possibly even Amuneke) were not even 'local' finds. They were already playing abroad. So this Westerhoff's local talent narrative is not even entirely true.
I dispute the above...

Finidi George was playing for Sharks when he played against Burkina Faso (7-1). This is fact.

Westerhof on Amokachi.

[/video]
start from 6:00.

Kanu: Japan '93 team was playing for Iwuanyanwu Nationale, before going to Ajax. Don't know when he made his SE debut.

Okocha: Was already playing abroad.. When he scored the equaliser against Algeria in the national stadium, Algeria had taken the lead. Nigeria went on to win (4-1) USA'94 qualifier. The goal by Okocha made his career in the national team. Although, I can't remember if he played for any of the junior teams before going apart. I think (although, i could be wrong, he was in the Mauritius '93 under 21 qualifier with Taribo West and Oliseh).

Amuneke, I am not sure if he made his debut whilst playing at home, however, if I remember he was regular for the 'SE' whilst playing for Zamalek.

Another from memory, if you remember The SE used to camp in Abidjan, before going to Ota Farms.
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Re: Pinnick my Hero

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https://guardian.ng/sport/why-westerhof ... -job-back/

Westerhoff actually admitted negotiating Amokachi's FC Brugge contract for him and getting a commission for his troubles.

Someone once advised Naija players to be like Finidi and wait to enter then big clubs like Ajax instead of entering Tchere Were clubs.

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Re: Pinnick my Hero

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Uncle Damunk and metalalloy....
He said: “A coach from Holland or any big European country but not Germany with likes of Berti Vogts, who will spend one week in Nigeria and spend the rest of the year in their native countries. When I was in Nigeria, I discovered Daniel Amokachi in Enugu when Ranchers Bees played a league game with Rangers.

“I walked up to their bus and told him he will be in my (Super Eagles) team, he said which team and I told him right there in the presence of other players, I’m the national team manager but he said he was just 16 years old and I said it didn’t matter.

Finidi George is a great player, I also was at the stadium when he played for his club and I called him to camp. There were many players like that I brought to Super Eagles camp.

So whoever the foreign technical adviser will be, he must be ready to see many of the domestic league games and see how the players are doing and how they play. You don’t stay away from the games and players and hope to have a strong Super Eagles team, no, it can’t happen,” Westerhof stated.
Keshi and Westerhof did it and they won the AFCON. The Eurocentric took over, we failed to qualify for two successive AFCON.
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Re: Pinnick my Hero

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You are a man of honour... We are waiting your response.
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Re: Pinnick my Hero

Post by Otitokoro »

With all due respect, how is the information on Okpotu and Lakosa being used wrongly? Is it not a fact that both players, who by the way, ended up being the golden ball winners as top scorers for the past couple of seasons in the NPFL, struggled to impress during their trials overseas?
This serves as evidence that the overall quality of the domestic league in recent years is questionable.
By the way, Paul Onuachi joined Midtjylland seven (7) years ago. Surely, he must have been 'Euro-centricised' by now, don't you think? This actually buttresses my point.
fabio wrote:
Otitokoro wrote: Evidence of this is when you have the likes of Okpotu and Lakosa failing in trials for a Bulgarian Div 2 club and most recently, a Chinese Div 2 club. These were supposedly the top domestic league scorers and supposedly the best the domestic league had to offer!!!
So, this begs the question for the 'local player' protagonists: why would you want to force someone into the National team whose talent has plateaued and who has no hope of getting better?
This is using stats wrongly to prove a point. What about Stephen Odey.

Stephen Odey (7goals) and Onuachi (8goals) are also turning their leagues inside out.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=289872&start=138
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Re: Pinnick my Hero

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fabio wrote:You are a man of honour... We are waiting your response.
Will do some fact-checking once I reach home.
There are obviously some inconsistencies somewhere.
If mine, no problem.
Its all about getting at the facts, not about being 'right' at all costs.
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Re: Pinnick my Hero

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Damunk wrote:
fabio wrote:You are a man of honour... We are waiting your response.
Will do some fact-checking once I reach home.
There are obviously some inconsistencies somewhere.
If mine, no problem.
Its all about getting at the facts, not about being 'right' at all costs.
It is always fun debating with you :thumb: Waiting your research. Home based wins this one :taunt:
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Re: Pinnick my Hero

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fabio wrote:
Damunk wrote:
fabio wrote:You are a man of honour... We are waiting your response.
Will do some fact-checking once I reach home.
There are obviously some inconsistencies somewhere.
If mine, no problem.
Its all about getting at the facts, not about being 'right' at all costs.
It is always fun debating with you :thumb: Waiting your research. Home based wins this one :taunt:
Fabio you might have to concede here. :D
I've taken seven top young players from the Westerhoff era - Finidi, Amokachi, Amuneke, Kanu, JJ Okocha, Taribo and Oliseh.
Westerhoff was NT coach from 1989 -1994.

The results speak for themselves.
What do you think? Be fair.

1. Finidi George:
National Team Debut: 1991 v B'Faso.
Club: Sharks.
NT Manager at the time: Westerhoff.
Moved to Ajax in 1993.
Verdict: Local recruit.

2. Daniel Amokachi
National Team Debut: 1990.
Club: Ranchers Bees.
NT Manager at the time: Westerhoff.
Moved to Club Bruges the same year( 1990).
Verdict: Local recruit.

3. Emmanuel Amuneke
National Team Debut: 1993.
Club: Zamalek.
NT Manager at the time: Westerhoff.
Moved to Sporting Lisbon in 1994.
Verdict: FB recruit.

4. JJ Okocha
National Team Debut: May 1993 v Cote D'Ivoire.
Club: Eintracht Frankfurt.
NT Manager at the time: Westerhoff.
Moved to Fernebache in 1996.
Verdict: FB recruit.

5. Nwankwo Kanu
National Team Debut: May 1994 v Sweden.
Club: Ajax.
NT Manager at the time: Westerhoff.
Moved to Inter Milan in 1996.
Verdict: FB recruit.

6. Taribo West
National Team Debut: May 1994 v Sweden.
Club: Auxerre.
NT Manager at the time: Westerhoff.
Moved to Internazionale in 1997.
Verdict: FB recruit.

7. Sunny Oliseh
National Team Debut: May 1993 .
Club: RFC Liege.
NT Manager at the time: Westerhoff.
Moved to Reggiana in 1994.
Verdict: FB recruit.

There might be more players you might wish to include to make your case, but in my view, these were the main stars of the Westerhoff years.
For some reason I am unable to find the year of Siasia's debut, but I think it was before the Westerhoff era.
Pls feel free to disagree.
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Re: Pinnick my Hero

Post by Cmoke »

Sia1 debutted way b4 Westerhoff smell SE.

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