Who is greater Pele or Messi?

[Enugu II]

The Read Deal,

Fortunately, I am one person here among a few who saw all three and thus not fixated on Messi.
The claim that National teams are weakened is not a claim of fact and neither is the claim that the ECL is better than the WC. Those two claims are both debatable.

But forgetting even those two claims, let us assume them FOR A MOMENT to be true, then one has to wonder if Messi was so great why has he not inspired his team to beat teams in the weakened tournaments? Or how did Pele and Maradona inspire their teams to overcome others in the stronger tournament era? In essence, I think the statement that weakened national team tournaments exist today actually makes your claim that Messi is the GOAT questionable.

Modric BTW was the best player in a one month period of the World Cup. That does not make the World Cup weakened. Did Modric not play for Real Madrid during the season or was he on the break while the leagues weakened the likes of Messi? Was he resting before the World Cup?

You may not have realized that when Pele dominated the world, there was a guy called George Best who dominated at the club level but never got the chance to be at the World Cup. There are many like George Best today. The issue in Messi's case is that at both club and NT levels he has played with top notch players but while he made his mark at the club level he has yet to do it at the NT level. It will continue to be his achilles heel until he wins one WC. On paper, very few people would rate Croatian group of stars around Modric to be stronger than the Argentine group that surrounded Messi. Yet, Modric DID WHAT? That is the issue right there, bros. It isn't like Ronaldo who has played with stars at club level and made his mark with his club team but has not been surrounded at NT level with great players. That is why one can excuse Ronaldo but not Messi. BTW, who were the great stars surrounding Maradona at Napoli? Messi has had stars surrounding him at both club and country.

Nations team competitions are weakened these days. The best footballers in the planet are weakened by time it comes.
National team was the BEST pele era
Club football rules today
How many Continental competition surpasses Bundesliga, LaLiga, EPL, Ligue 1 talkless of Champions league
Does anyone really believe that Modric is the BEST player in the world right now? How w'd he get that without the champions league win?
And messi and CR are not top 3 in the world? Give me a break
Is Weah the best Africa has ever seen cos he never played in the SF of ACN
Answer these questions logically......

Bros

There is nothing weakening national team competition. Yes the club game has improved technically and tactically but the same has happened at the national team level. Which stats demonstrates this claim of weakening?

If it was weakened should we say then that Pele and Maradona dominated in stronger national competitions and Messi has not be able to dominate the weakened ones? Is that the argument?

Friend, have you played the game ? Its physically taxing. Take your mind tru a typical season; weeks of training, pre-season tourney ( International champions cup here in US).....Charity shield (league winner V Cup winner), 38 week season, puntuated by Nations cup, WCQ, League cup and FA cup...then the BIG one Champions league ( Which has a BETTER QUALITY THAN THE WC!)......On average, its been calculated that the likes of Messi and Cron play a game every 3 days, not to talk of training and travel......... Champions league final ends in May and WC starts in june, preceded by 2-4 weeks of camping.... Seriously, dude, the brain is TIRED by this time. The dynamics of the Pele years, when Telecast of matches were not as widespread, commercialisation and the pressure it brings were 1,000 times less than today.... Its @ a different level today bro
The dynamics, demand, attention and commercial dimensions are so different. That's why any player less than 80 mill today is prob not a star

[Heliopolis]

Nations team competitions are weakened these days. The best footballers in the planet are weakened by time it comes.
National team was the BEST pele era
Club football rules today
How many Continental competition surpasses Bundesliga, LaLiga, EPL, Ligue 1 talkless of Champions league
Does anyone really believe that Modric is the BEST player in the world right now? How w'd he get that without the champions league win?
And messi and CR are not top 3 in the world? Give me a break
Is Weah the best Africa has ever seen cos he never played in the SF of ACN
Answer these questions logically......

Bros

There is nothing weakening national team competition. Yes the club game has improved technically and tactically but the same has happened at the national team level. Which stats demonstrates this claim of weakening?

If it was weakened should we say then that Pele and Maradona dominated in stronger national competitions and Messi has not be able to dominate the weakened ones? Is that the argument?

Friend, have you played the game ? Its physically taxing. Take your mind tru a typical season; weeks of training, pre-season tourney ( International champions cup here in US).....Charity shield (league winner V Cup winner), 38 week season, puntuated by Nations cup, WCQ, League cup and FA cup...then the BIG one Champions league ( Which has a BETTER QUALITY THAN THE WC!)......On average, its been calculated that the likes of Messi and Cron play a game every 3 days, not to talk of training and travel......... Champions league final ends in May and WC starts in june, preceded by 2-4 weeks of camping.... Seriously, dude, the brain is TIRED by this time. The dynamics of the Pele years, when Telecast of matches were not as widespread, commercialisation and the pressure it brings were 1,000 times less than today.... Its @ a different level today bro
The dynamics, demand, attention and commercial dimensions are so different. That's why any player less than 80 mill today is prob not a star

I agree with you that players participate in too many (useless) games nowadays which is due to the rapid commercialization of the sport but there's no proof NT competitions back then were better than now. You're forgetting that players are in so many games these days due to advances in training, medicine, nutrition, etc. These guys have perfect diets, training regimens, nutrition, physio care, etc etc. We may think that a game every 3 days is a lot but they have coaches that scientifically monitor their performance to objectively assess whether they are fatigued.

Also, the modern game is more advanced technically than back then. Goal scoring was higher back then because defensive tactics were not as good as today. Players today are more athletic than back then. If you watch footage of the great teams from pre-1980s you'd quickly come to the conclusion they'd get whalloped if they used the same tactics in today's game.

I won't go as far as saying Messi is better in Pele. In fact, I'll never say something like that because its not a comparison that we can do objectively due to so many variables. Its easier to compare Messi vs C. Ronaldo. However, Messi is top 5 of all time given what he's done and he still has a few years left to add to his list of achievements.

[Enugu II]

Heliopolis,

Your take on today's game compared to previous era is far more realistic from what is known out there. I agree with the advances that you have pointed out. I would also add that today's teams have larger squads as well and their bodies are better prepared and the game much faster.

On comparing across decades, it is always tricky and that is why winning on the big stages can be used even though it isn't fool proof. In my opinion, the way you compare players is not imagining them playing in the same game because the games are quite different. What you do is to ask: How much did that player dominate in his era? I believe that is the critical question to then find out if that valence of dominance is much stronger than the valence of dominance by another player in a different era.

I believe Messi is the greatest in this era but I know some may argue that Ronaldo is even better. He surely is among top 5 ever. But no way will I agree that he is the GOAT. The evidence is just not there. He has a few more years to prove otherwise.

Nations team competitions are weakened these days. The best footballers in the planet are weakened by time it comes.
National team was the BEST pele era
Club football rules today
How many Continental competition surpasses Bundesliga, LaLiga, EPL, Ligue 1 talkless of Champions league
Does anyone really believe that Modric is the BEST player in the world right now? How w'd he get that without the champions league win?
And messi and CR are not top 3 in the world? Give me a break
Is Weah the best Africa has ever seen cos he never played in the SF of ACN
Answer these questions logically......

Bros

There is nothing weakening national team competition. Yes the club game has improved technically and tactically but the same has happened at the national team level. Which stats demonstrates this claim of weakening?

If it was weakened should we say then that Pele and Maradona dominated in stronger national competitions and Messi has not be able to dominate the weakened ones? Is that the argument?

Friend, have you played the game ? Its physically taxing. Take your mind tru a typical season; weeks of training, pre-season tourney ( International champions cup here in US).....Charity shield (league winner V Cup winner), 38 week season, puntuated by Nations cup, WCQ, League cup and FA cup...then the BIG one Champions league ( Which has a BETTER QUALITY THAN THE WC!)......On average, its been calculated that the likes of Messi and Cron play a game every 3 days, not to talk of training and travel......... Champions league final ends in May and WC starts in june, preceded by 2-4 weeks of camping.... Seriously, dude, the brain is TIRED by this time. The dynamics of the Pele years, when Telecast of matches were not as widespread, commercialisation and the pressure it brings were 1,000 times less than today.... Its @ a different level today bro
The dynamics, demand, attention and commercial dimensions are so different. That's why any player less than 80 mill today is prob not a star

I agree with you that players participate in too many (useless) games nowadays which is due to the rapid commercialization of the sport but there's no proof NT competitions back then were better than now. You're forgetting that players are in so many games these days due to advances in training, medicine, nutrition, etc. These guys have perfect diets, training regimens, nutrition, physio care, etc etc. We may think that a game every 3 days is a lot but they have coaches that scientifically monitor their performance to objectively assess whether they are fatigued.

Also, the modern game is more advanced technically than back then. Goal scoring was higher back then because defensive tactics were not as good as today. Players today are more athletic than back then. If you watch footage of the great teams from pre-1980s you'd quickly come to the conclusion they'd get whalloped if they used the same tactics in today's game.

I won't go as far as saying Messi is better in Pele. In fact, I'll never say something like that because its not a comparison that we can do objectively due to so many variables. Its easier to compare Messi vs C. Ronaldo. However, Messi is top 5 of all time given what he's done and he still has a few years left to add to his list of achievements.

[The real deal]

Respect to you both, Heli and Enugu
The Modern game is so different from Pele era, hugely different i have to say. On player level, nutrition, personal training, conditionin, supplements ets... On team level, tactics, technic, training schedules.. Night and day, gentlemen. The advance in sports is the closest to technology and medicine. Just like 11 sec was 100m world record to 9.7 today. Defenders, naive during Pele era are not like that anymore....they simply lined behind each other almost on a straight line for Pele which makes Messi achievement even more impressive cos whatever Pele did with defenders in those days, Messi did that and more........
Before I digress, Is there any player alive with the assist competence of messi, the short and long ranges of his pass....this kid dominate every part of the pitch where he plays....He is a genius........ This is a number he has on any of his competitors. There's no goal, repeat no goal that Ronaldo scored that messi cannot score...can Ronaldo score surrounded routinely by 6 players like messi and score? Methink not
On Messi been surrounded by great players and not winning? Not really true.....the only time he had great players all over the pitch was copa in '07? when Roman Riquelme was #10 Jesus Christ! Look @ this!
Messi is Argentina all time highest goalscorer...he's just not been lucky. Argentina quality has been deceptive cos their best players are forwards! Guys that shd be playing same position as Messi.....Di Maria/ Higuain, Kun Aguero, Di Bala, icardi....all forwards! No Midfielder of world repute. No defenders of Ayala stature just pretenders like otamendi....
guys, MESI is GOAT...this coming from a kid who had Pele postal all over my room as a youngster cos I )still) adore him

[Enugu II]

real deal,

I can see that you are really a fan of Messi. That is great as he is certainly the best of his era. I will not argue on that.

The problem is arguing that he is GOAT. That just will not get any traction until he dominates the world. He is yet to do that.

You probably never saw Pele or Maradona if you really think that Messi is a better dribbler than those two. First Maradona is clearly the best dribbler in tight spaces. What Messi has is a burst of speed that is deceptive and leaves defenders dead or committing late fouls. Nothing that he does with the ball is spectacular when compared to Pele and Maradona. Pele does not create new signature dribbles as Pele, Maradona, Ronaldinho, or JJ did. Messi's dribbles are really routine but he does them better because of deceptive quickness. Now what does he do that is really really great? His ability to make smart shooting decision while at great pace! Pele not only dribbled but commanded the aerial game as Ronaldo does today. Messi is not even worth a mention in terms of aerial command.

Bros, many gifted players will love to play in the Argentina team that Messi has played on for years. Do not underrate that team. Very few national teams have such a pedigree of players. I think about Argentina team that Maradona took to the final of the 1990 WC, it isn't even close talent wise to any of the teams that Messi has played on for Argentina. Yet, Maradona willed that subpar Argentine team, singlehandedly to the WC final. Bros, in those days all the balls went through Maradona's commanding influence in the middle. When you watch Messi play for Argentina, for large number of minutes he is quite anonymous. No influence, nothing.

Respect to you both, Heli and Enugu
The Modern game is so different from Pele era, hugely different i have to say. On player level, nutrition, personal training, conditionin, supplements ets... On team level, tactics, technic, training schedules.. Night and day, gentlemen. The advance in sports is the closest to technology and medicine. Just like 11 sec was 100m world record to 9.7 today. Defenders, naive during Pele era are not like that anymore....they simply lined behind each other almost on a straight line for Pele which makes Messi achievement even more impressive cos whatever Pele did with defenders in those days, Messi did that and more........
Before I digress, Is there any player alive with the assist competence of messi, the short and long ranges of his pass....this kid dominate every part of the pitch where he plays....He is a genius........ This is a number he has on any of his competitors. There's no goal, repeat no goal that Ronaldo scored that messi cannot score...can Ronaldo score surrounded routinely by 6 players like messi and score? Methink not
On Messi been surrounded by great players and not winning? Not really true.....the only time he had great players all over the pitch was copa in '07? when Roman Riquelme was #10 Jesus Christ! Look @ this!
Messi is Argentina all time highest goalscorer...he's just not been lucky. Argentina quality has been deceptive cos their best players are forwards! Guys that shd be playing same position as Messi.....Di Maria/ Higuain, Kun Aguero, Di Bala, icardi....all forwards! No Midfielder of world repute. No defenders of Ayala stature just pretenders like otamendi....
guys, MESI is GOAT...this coming from a kid who had Pele postal all over my room as a youngster cos I )still) adore him

[The real deal]

No sir. Here's why?


These GREAT Players sh'd know.....makes me want to rest my case but i'll continue if you continue

real deal,

I can see that you are really a fan of Messi. That is great as he is certainly the best of his era. I will not argue on that.

The problem is arguing that he is GOAT. That just will not get any traction until he dominates the world. He is yet to do that.

You probably never saw Pele or Maradona if you really think that Messi is a better dribbler than those two. First Maradona is clearly the best dribbler in tight spaces. What Messi has is a burst of speed that is deceptive and leaves defenders dead or committing late fouls. Nothing that he does with the ball is spectacular when compared to Pele and Maradona. Pele does not create new signature dribbles as Pele, Maradona, Ronaldinho, or JJ did. Messi's dribbles are really routine but he does them better because of deceptive quickness. Now what does he do that is really really great? His ability to make smart shooting decision while at great pace! Pele not only dribbled but commanded the aerial game as Ronaldo does today. Messi is not even worth a mention in terms of aerial command.

Bros, many gifted players will love to play in the Argentina team that Messi has played on for years. Do not underrate that team. Very few national teams have such a pedigree of players. I think about Argentina team that Maradona took to the final of the 1990 WC, it isn't even close talent wise to any of the teams that Messi has played on for Argentina. Yet, Maradona willed that subpar Argentine team, singlehandedly to the WC final. Bros, in those days all the balls went through Maradona's commanding influence in the middle. When you watch Messi play for Argentina, for large number of minutes he is quite anonymous. No influence, nothing.

Respect to you both, Heli and Enugu
The Modern game is so different from Pele era, hugely different i have to say. On player level, nutrition, personal training, conditionin, supplements ets... On team level, tactics, technic, training schedules.. Night and day, gentlemen. The advance in sports is the closest to technology and medicine. Just like 11 sec was 100m world record to 9.7 today. Defenders, naive during Pele era are not like that anymore....they simply lined behind each other almost on a straight line for Pele which makes Messi achievement even more impressive cos whatever Pele did with defenders in those days, Messi did that and more........
Before I digress, Is there any player alive with the assist competence of messi, the short and long ranges of his pass....this kid dominate every part of the pitch where he plays....He is a genius........ This is a number he has on any of his competitors. There's no goal, repeat no goal that Ronaldo scored that messi cannot score...can Ronaldo score surrounded routinely by 6 players like messi and score? Methink not
On Messi been surrounded by great players and not winning? Not really true.....the only time he had great players all over the pitch was copa in '07? when Roman Riquelme was #10 Jesus Christ! Look @ this!
Messi is Argentina all time highest goalscorer...he's just not been lucky. Argentina quality has been deceptive cos their best players are forwards! Guys that shd be playing same position as Messi.....Di Maria/ Higuain, Kun Aguero, Di Bala, icardi....all forwards! No Midfielder of world repute. No defenders of Ayala stature just pretenders like otamendi....
guys, MESI is GOAT...this coming from a kid who had Pele postal all over my room as a youngster cos I )still) adore him

[marko]

Pele did not have any weakness in football, 3 world cups winner, 1970 world cup squad voted the greatest world cup side ever, back in the day, stikers were not protected at all!

Even Garrincha was a better dribbler than Pele and Messi

In club football, Ronaldo will argue he was even better than Messi and the fact he won more international honours than Messi can work in his favour

International football, Pele, club football, Messi

[Heliopolis]

Pele did not have any weakness in football, 3 world cups winner, 1970 world cup squad voted the greatest world cup side ever, back in the day, stikers were not protected at all!

Even Garrincha was a better dribbler than Pele and Messi

In club football, Ronaldo will argue he was even better than Messi and the fact he won more international honours than Messi can work in his favour

International football, Pele, club football, Messi

I think pointing to Pele's 3 WC titles undermines his greatness...one of those titles (1962) was won with him on the sidelines due to injury which goes to show you how stacked Brazil was at the time. He was replaced by some kid no one heard about named Amarildo who ended up scoring 3 goals in their remaining 3 games. Of course we know about what Garrincha did in Pele's absence. In 1970 Pele was once again over-shadowed by a teammate (Jairzinho) who was Brazil's most instrumental player.

All this to say that its not only difficult to compare individual players who played in completely different generations, but also because this is a team sport. Its historically proven that Brazil was good enough to win the World Cup without Pele and even when he was 2nd or 3rd fiddle. So we can't simply point to his WC wins to prove he was better than Messi or other players.

We often hear this argument in basketball. People will say that Kobe is better than LeBron because he won 5 titles compared to LeBron's 3. Going by that logic, Robert Horry is better than Kobe because he won 7 titles.

I am a huge Messi fan and he might go down as my favourite player ever but he has disappointed me in recent years. I agree that Argentina is not as good as they look on paper and the team is extremely flawed (they do not have elite midfielders, defenders or GKs) but Messi disappeared in numerous Copa Americas even though he was the best player on the pitch in games where it was there for the taking. I think the issue with Messi is he is a football purist: he is a patient player that waits for his spots no matter what the circumstances is which works over a long period of time (e.g. over a 38-game season or over a playing career) but is not the best approach in a 90-minute KO game. In the two Copa finals they lost to Chile the guy was strolling around waiting for the game to come to him against a team that was happy to have made it to the final.

At the WC level, I think Messi is unfairly maligned. In 2006 he came off a 3-month injury spell and Argentina's coach inserted players based on his system rather than selecting the best players for each position. That WC was a write-off for Messi. In 2010 he was easily Argentina's best player and I think he assisted half of their goals but was criticized for not scoring and chastised for being battered by Germany in a game that was disastrous for Argentina due to awful coaching by Maradona. In 2014 he was easily Argentina's most dominant player and without him they would not have made the final. He missed a few chances in the final but he was on an out-of-form Argentina team where none of the strikers were scoring and their second best player (Di Maria) missed the final. In 2018 he was their best player but the team was dysfunctional. I can't see how we can blame him at the WC level. Certainly you can blame him for his Copa failures.

BTW, I think he has 2 more chances to win the Copa and 1 more to win the WC but given how big of a mess Argentina is at the moment (politically and football wise) I don't see him getting a coveted NT trophy before he retires.

[kajifu]

Pele did not have any weakness in football, 3 world cups winner, 1970 world cup squad voted the greatest world cup side ever, back in the day, stikers were not protected at all!

Even Garrincha was a better dribbler than Pele and Messi

In club football, Ronaldo will argue he was even better than Messi and the fact he won more international honours than Messi can work in his favour

International football, Pele, club football, Messi

I think pointing to Pele's 3 WC titles undermines his greatness...one of those titles (1962) was won with him on the sidelines due to injury which goes to show you how stacked Brazil was at the time. He was replaced by some kid no one heard about named Amarildo who ended up scoring 3 goals in their remaining 3 games. Of course we know about what Garrincha did in Pele's absence. In 1970 Pele was once again over-shadowed by a teammate (Jairzinho) who was Brazil's most instrumental player.

All this to say that its not only difficult to compare individual players who played in completely different generations, but also because this is a team sport. Its historically proven that Brazil was good enough to win the World Cup without Pele and even when he was 2nd or 3rd fiddle. So we can't simply point to his WC wins to prove he was better than Messi or other players.

We often hear this argument in basketball. People will say that Kobe is better than LeBron because he won 5 titles compared to LeBron's 3. Going by that logic, Robert Horry is better than Kobe because he won 7 titles.

I am a huge Messi fan and he might go down as my favourite player ever but he has disappointed me in recent years. I agree that Argentina is not as good as they look on paper and the team is extremely flawed (they do not have elite midfielders, defenders or GKs) but Messi disappeared in numerous Copa Americas even though he was the best player on the pitch in games where it was there for the taking. I think the issue with Messi is he is a football purist: he is a patient player that waits for his spots no matter what the circumstances is which works over a long period of time (e.g. over a 38-game season or over a playing career) but is not the best approach in a 90-minute KO game. In the two Copa finals they lost to Chile the guy was strolling around waiting for the game to come to him against a team that was happy to have made it to the final.

At the WC level, I think Messi is unfairly maligned. In 2006 he came off a 3-month injury spell and Argentina's coach inserted players based on his system rather than selecting the best players for each position. That WC was a write-off for Messi. In 2010 he was easily Argentina's best player and I think he assisted half of their goals but was criticized for not scoring and chastised for being battered by Germany in a game that was disastrous for Argentina due to awful coaching by Maradona. In 2014 he was easily Argentina's most dominant player and without him they would not have made the final. He missed a few chances in the final but he was on an out-of-form Argentina team where none of the strikers were scoring and their second best player (Di Maria) missed the final. In 2018 he was their best player but the team was dysfunctional. I can't see how we can blame him at the WC level. Certainly you can blame him for his Copa failures.

BTW, I think he has 2 more chances to win the Copa and 1 more to win the WC but given how big of a mess Argentina is at the moment (politically and football wise) I don't see him getting a coveted NT trophy before he retires.

If he cant win next copa,Argentina should drop him not good enough to be leading them.A good player but Argentina will be better without him,look at Sweden they were better after Ibra left the scene.The world cup in Brazil I believe if you take him and replaced with Di maria they would have beat Germany,Di Marie offer them something direct than Messi.

[The real deal]

THIS IS MESSI AGAINST THE BEST DEFENDERS IN THE GAME (WC winners)

Close control dribbling?
Nutmegs?
Come on now?
Have you ever seen any player do this?