Who is greater Pele or Messi?

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Re: Who is greater Pele or Messi?

Post by The real deal »

ohsee wrote:Those who compare Messi to Pele are guilty of the crime of "presentism," (they are enamored of the present, and think the past does not matter) and don't know anything about Pele and his accomplishments. Pele did things that are incredible in any age--things no one did before, and no one did after. Messi does things that only SEEM incredible in THIS age.

Go and do the work and find out. Find out why the world's football experts and historians near unanimously say Pele is the GOAT of GOATs. Don't just pull stuff from the usual place.

You must not know Messi to say this
He is a GENIUS!
If you've played the game before,it'll make more sense.
Difference btw him and CRON is that, messi's best attribute over Ronaldo are 1) When games are tight, he goes back to MF to start a play, collects the ball in last 3rd and finishes 3 players before scoring. 2)He uses the left foot which you know he's gonna use but you cannot stop it 3) Never seen Cron score many goals while surrounded by 4-5 players as messi does every game and still flourish......4)In terms of sheer CEREBRAL football, creating passing lanes, seeing 3-4 steps ahead, no one, no ,one matches MESSI
He is a GENIUS

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Re: Who is greater Pele or Messi?

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I love Pele
I adore pele
Achievement is one thing...may not match your competence sometimes
But no ONE, No ONE matches MESSI footbal BRAIN

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Re: Who is greater Pele or Messi?

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The real deal wrote:
ohsee wrote:Those who compare Messi to Pele are guilty of the crime of "presentism," (they are enamored of the present, and think the past does not matter) and don't know anything about Pele and his accomplishments. Pele did things that are incredible in any age--things no one did before, and no one did after. Messi does things that only SEEM incredible in THIS age.

Go and do the work and find out. Find out why the world's football experts and historians near unanimously say Pele is the GOAT of GOATs. Don't just pull stuff from the usual place.

You must not know Messi to say this
He is a GENIUS!
If you've played the game before,it'll make more sense.
Difference btw him and CRON is that, messi's best attribute over Ronaldo are 1) When games are tight, he goes back to MF to start a play, collects the ball in last 3rd and finishes 3 players before scoring. 2)He uses the left foot which you know he's gonna use but you cannot stop it 3) Never seen Cron score many goals while surrounded by 4-5 players as messi does every game and still flourish......4)In terms of sheer CEREBRAL football, creating passing lanes, seeing 3-4 steps ahead, no one, no ,one matches MESSI
He is a GENIUS

Right. And why has he not been able to do this outside of the Barca set-up? Why is it impossible for him to do this at World Cups and Copa Americas? Have you considered the possibility that Messi is only able to do this because he is surrounded by some of the best players on the planet at Barca who divide the attention of defenders?

Yes, Messi is indeed a genius playing for Barca. Outside of Barca, he seems just a very good player to me. In the last two World Cups, your "genius" has only scored against great football countries like Iran, Bosnia and Nigeria. In 2010, your genius who is able to "collect the ball in the last 3rd and finish 3 players before scoring" scored a grand total of 0 goals, a fabulous goalden egg for a "genius." Why is that?
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Re: Who is greater Pele or Messi?

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The real deal wrote:I love Pele
I adore pele
Achievement is one thing...may not match your competence sometimes
But no ONE, No ONE matches MESSI footbal BRAIN

You know this is just YOUR opinion, and opinions are like arseholes--everyone has one. Pele's greatness is not just a matter of mere opinion. Don't let me get started on Pele facts that strongly buttress the opinion of the best experts that O Rei is the GOAT of GOATs.
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Re: Who is greater Pele or Messi?

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ohsee wrote:
The real deal wrote:
ohsee wrote:Those who compare Messi to Pele are guilty of the crime of "presentism," (they are enamored of the present, and think the past does not matter) and don't know anything about Pele and his accomplishments. Pele did things that are incredible in any age--things no one did before, and no one did after. Messi does things that only SEEM incredible in THIS age.

Go and do the work and find out. Find out why the world's football experts and historians near unanimously say Pele is the GOAT of GOATs. Don't just pull stuff from the usual place.

You must not know Messi to say this
He is a GENIUS!
If you've played the game before,it'll make more sense.
Difference btw him and CRON is that, messi's best attribute over Ronaldo are 1) When games are tight, he goes back to MF to start a play, collects the ball in last 3rd and finishes 3 players before scoring. 2)He uses the left foot which you know he's gonna use but you cannot stop it 3) Never seen Cron score many goals while surrounded by 4-5 players as messi does every game and still flourish......4)In terms of sheer CEREBRAL football, creating passing lanes, seeing 3-4 steps ahead, no one, no ,one matches MESSI
He is a GENIUS

Right. And why has he not been able to do this outside of the Barca set-up? Why is it impossible for him to do this at World Cups and Copa Americas? Have you considered the possibility that Messi is only able to do this because he is surrounded by some of the best players on the planet at Barca who divide the attention of defenders?

Yes, Messi is indeed a genius playing for Barca. Outside of Barca, he seems just a very good player to me. In the last two World Cups, your "genius" has only scored against great football countries like Iran, Bosnia and Nigeria. In 2010, your genius who is able to "collect the ball in the last 3rd and finish 3 players before scoring" scored a grand total of 0 goals, a fabulous goalden egg for a "genius." Why is that?

Going by your posts, I can tell you have been ard for a long time. National team football , WC, Euro nations cup, ANC, Copa America WAS way more popular and better in quality in the 50s till around 1994. Most leagues today are better than WC, not to talk of UCL...... The intensity of those club games trounce WC 10 times fold. By the time the WC comes ard, the BEST players in the world are TIRED. That's the truth. Most Clubs are so powerful that even their best players will dodge national duties. FIFA capitalized on the new commercial globalisation too with too many FiFA competitions today. Doing what Messi and CRON has done in todays game is no joke on a consistent basis...12 seasons in a row...
Simply put " Pele etal excelled in the era of superior National team competions , Messi doing it in the era of Club competition"
It will be interesting If fans were asked to vote which they'd rather watch, UCL or WC....I suspect that UCL will nick it.
Club football is that intense today. And messi, been surrounded by GREAT players? Hmmm
You have to look down memory lane....from Eto'o to Ibrahimovic, Alex Sanchez to Neymar and very average players in between, the Genius of messi is NEVER in doubt IMHO
He made everybody twice better than they really are

Listen to Titi Henry here....



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Re: Who is greater Pele or Messi?

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Heliopolis wrote:
ohsee wrote:Those who compare Messi to Pele are guilty of the crime of "presentism," (they are enamored of the present, and think the past does not matter) and don't know anything about Pele and his accomplishments. Pele did things that are incredible in any age--things no one did before, and no one did after. Messi does things that only SEEM incredible in THIS age.

Go and do the work and find out. Find out why the world's football experts and historians near unanimously say Pele is the GOAT of GOATs. Don't just pull stuff from the usual place.
I'm not going to argue with you but we need to appreciate the fact that C. Ronaldo and Messi have demonstrated longevity that no greats have ever done. This sport has never seen one, let alone two attacking players as the undisputed best amongst their generation for a good 10+ years. Keep in mind that due to the dominance of the European leagues in recent decades, we now have the best of the best competing against each other at the club level and yet Ronaldo and Messi have remained at the pinnacle. In the past the likes of Pele and other South American greats stayed at home which meant they dominated weaker competition. Pele undoubtedly showed his class against the best at the World Cup but its a different kettle of fish when you're dominating 50+ games a year against the best players and clubs for 10+ years.

I'm not sure we'll ever see attackers put up the numbers Ronaldo and Messi have for such a long period of time. The only guy right now I think has the potential is Mbappe who is better now than Ronaldo was at the same age and has been as instrumental as Messi was at the same period of his career.
Chief, you need to go take a gander at the history books and the statistics. That's the only way you can understand that Ronaldo and Messi have nothing on Pele.

Pele dominated a Brazil where everyone stayed home and the Brazil leagues were very strong, not one in which the best Brazilians were dispersed around the world. Outside of your opinion how can you know whether it is weaker opposition? If the opposition is weaker today, how come nobody in the Brazil League today is able to do a quarter of what Pele did? Pele dominated world football from 1958 to 1970. For 9 straight years from his 16th birthday--yep, I'll spell it out for you, s-i-x-t-e-e-n--he was top scorer in the Paulista. Even in years when he spent stretches of League time recovering from injury, something that happened often given that defenders showed him no mercy. Check it out for yourself. Pele is not human. Messi and Ronaldo are.
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Re: Who is greater Pele or Messi?

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The real deal wrote:
Going by your posts, I can tell you have been ard for a long time. National team football , WC, Euro nations cup, ANC, Copa America WAS way more popular and better in quality in the 50s till around 1994. Most leagues today are better than WC, not to talk of UCL...... The intensity of those club games trounce WC 10 times fold. By the time the WC comes ard, the BEST players in the world are TIRED. That's the truth. Most Clubs are so powerful that even their best players will dodge national duties. FIFA capitalized on the new commercial globalisation too with too many FiFA competitions today. Doing what Messi and CRON has done in todays game is no joke on a consistent basis...12 seasons in a row...
Simply put " Pele etal excelled in the era of superior National team competions , Messi doing it in the era of Club competition"
It will be interesting If fans were asked to vote which they'd rather watch, UCL or WC....I suspect that UCL will nick it.
Club football is that intense today. And messi, been surrounded by GREAT players? Hmmm
You have to look down memory lane....from Eto'o to Ibrahimovic, Alex Sanchez to Neymar and very average players in between, the Genius of messi is NEVER in doubt IMHO
He made everybody twice better than they really are

Listen to Titi Henry here....



Opinions, opinions, opinions everywhere. Why have you not answered my questions besides the lame excuse that the genius Messi is tired, and that's why he lays goal-den eggs at world cups and Copa Americas? Poor tired hen Messi. The real geniuses are Messi fanboys who are experts at making excuses for him.

Pele played far more club games a year than Messi the World Cup hen and Ronaldo. Yes, they were friendlies, but they were highly intense friendlies where everyone tried to prove that they could beat the "Santasticos," (Santos FC) the Barcelona of the day, and Santos were intent on demonstrating their reputation as the best club in the World. They beat clubs all over Europe, then went to World Cups and beat the best from Europe. What are you talking about?
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Re: Who is greater Pele or Messi?

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ohsee wrote:
The real deal wrote:
Going by your posts, I can tell you have been ard for a long time. National team football , WC, Euro nations cup, ANC, Copa America WAS way more popular and better in quality in the 50s till around 1994. Most leagues today are better than WC, not to talk of UCL...... The intensity of those club games trounce WC 10 times fold. By the time the WC comes ard, the BEST players in the world are TIRED. That's the truth. Most Clubs are so powerful that even their best players will dodge national duties. FIFA capitalized on the new commercial globalisation too with too many FiFA competitions today. Doing what Messi and CRON has done in todays game is no joke on a consistent basis...12 seasons in a row...
Simply put " Pele etal excelled in the era of superior National team competions , Messi doing it in the era of Club competition"
It will be interesting If fans were asked to vote which they'd rather watch, UCL or WC....I suspect that UCL will nick it.
Club football is that intense today. And messi, been surrounded by GREAT players? Hmmm
You have to look down memory lane....from Eto'o to Ibrahimovic, Alex Sanchez to Neymar and very average players in between, the Genius of messi is NEVER in doubt IMHO
He made everybody twice better than they really are

Listen to Titi Henry here....



Opinions, opinions, opinions everywhere. Why have you not answered my questions besides the lame excuse that the genius Messi is tired, and that's why he lays goal-den eggs at world cups and Copa Americas? Poor tired hen Messi. The real geniuses are Messi fanboys who are experts at making excuses for him.

Pele played far more club games a year than Messi the World Cup hen and Ronaldo. Yes, they were friendlies, but they were highly intense friendlies where everyone tried to prove that they could beat the "Santasticos," (Santos FC) the Barcelona of the day, and Santos were intent on demonstrating their reputation as the best club in the World. They beat clubs all over Europe, then went to World Cups and beat the best from Europe. What are you talking about?

Excuse? Messi games speaks for him. You'll have to be a HATER not to acknowledge him. The competition that Santos played is INFERIOR to what we see today...technics and tactics are light years better. He's played copa America finals 3ce, WC final once.... down to luck mostly if you ask me. Portugal won Euro last time in France, Was Portugal close to being the best in Europe ? reading STATS....Stats may not explain the full picture. No player on planet earth has ANYTHING on Messi
CRON will probably not win the WC, does that take anything away from him? No insults dude
Messi, the BEST I have ever seen....
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Re: Who is greater Pele or Messi?

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My goodness nah who talk say messi better pass Pele? I will konk that person for head
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Re: Who is greater Pele or Messi?

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Bigpokey24 wrote:My goodness nah who talk say messi better pass Pele? I will konk that person for head
Brother Bigpokey forgive them,they don't know what they are talking.
Messi better pass Pele?Oh lord please once more forgive them
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Re: Who is greater Pele or Messi?

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kajifu wrote:
Bigpokey24 wrote:My goodness nah who talk say messi better pass Pele? I will konk that person for head
Brother Bigpokey forgive them,they don't know what they are talking.
Messi better pass Pele?Oh lord please once more forgive them
Has anyone of you watched 90 mins of Pele?
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Re: Who is greater Pele or Messi?

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The real deal wrote:

Excuse? Messi games speaks for him. You'll have to be a HATER not to acknowledge him. The competition that Santos played is INFERIOR to what we see today...technics and tactics are light years better. He's played copa America finals 3ce, WC final once.... down to luck mostly if you ask me. Portugal won Euro last time in France, Was Portugal close to being the best in Europe ? reading STATS....Stats may not explain the full picture. No player on planet earth has ANYTHING on Messi
CRON will probably not win the WC, does that take anything away from him? No insults dude
Messi, the BEST I have ever seen....
Chief, I acknowledge Messi as ONE OF the greatest of all time. Of that, there is no question. It is when you show your focus on your time, and judge from that, rather than examine ALL TIME that I will challenge you because I have seen both Pele and Messi play. And I have taken the time to investigate their careers and records, and I am sorry my friend, there is absolutely no reason to compare the small boy Messi to the King. It is not even close.

Of course tactics are light years DIFFERENT, but there were different things then that no longer exist today. Today, forwards are protected and stop him at all costs gridiron style tackling is not allowed. Things have changed, but they have not necessarily made things more difficult for forwards.
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Re: Who is greater Pele or Messi?

Post by ohsee »

The real deal wrote:
kajifu wrote:
Bigpokey24 wrote:My goodness nah who talk say messi better pass Pele? I will konk that person for head
Brother Bigpokey forgive them,they don't know what they are talking.
Messi better pass Pele?Oh lord please once more forgive them
Has anyone of you watched 90 mins of Pele?
Yes, I have.
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Re: Who is greater Pele or Messi?

Post by The real deal »

ohsee wrote:
The real deal wrote:
kajifu wrote:
Bigpokey24 wrote:My goodness nah who talk say messi better pass Pele? I will konk that person for head
Brother Bigpokey forgive them,they don't know what they are talking.
Messi better pass Pele?Oh lord please once more forgive them
Has anyone of you watched 90 mins of Pele?
Yes, I have.
Which GAMES? Where and when?
Post clips of the game
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Re: Who is greater Pele or Messi?

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The real deal wrote:
ohsee wrote:
The real deal wrote:
kajifu wrote:
Bigpokey24 wrote:My goodness nah who talk say messi better pass Pele? I will konk that person for head
Brother Bigpokey forgive them,they don't know what they are talking.
Messi better pass Pele?Oh lord please once more forgive them
Has anyone of you watched 90 mins of Pele?
Yes, I have.
Which GAMES? Where and when?
Post clips of the game
Dude stop asking Uncle Ohsee such useless question.So you want him to post clips before you believe your elder?
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Re: Who is greater Pele or Messi?

Post by The real deal »

Elder?
I do not think so
I doubt anyone on this forum has watched pele play live
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Re: Who is greater Pele or Messi?

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The real deal wrote:
ohsee wrote:
The real deal wrote:
kajifu wrote:
Bigpokey24 wrote:My goodness nah who talk say messi better pass Pele? I will konk that person for head
Brother Bigpokey forgive them,they don't know what they are talking.
Messi better pass Pele?Oh lord please once more forgive them
Has anyone of you watched 90 mins of Pele?
Yes, I have.
Which GAMES? Where and when?
Post clips of the game
First of all, why do you want full games? All the geniuses of the game do not perform magic every second of the game. For many of them, it is a game of "moments of magic," be it Pele, Maradona, Messi, Ronaldo or Zidane. What you need is a montage of highlights for each game: no one has time to watch the hundreds of games you may need to watch to determine whatever it is you want to determine.

However, I do have complete Pele games. I have 1970 world cup on video--Brazil v Uruguay , Brazil v Italy (the Final), Brazil v England, Brazil v Peru. Have not converted it to digital because it is protected. Full 1958 World Cup games are available on Youtube.

I also have a number of very extended highlights from the Brazil Paulista league. I also have some full Paulista games too. Full Santos v River Plate (not sure the competition). I have them on my hard drive in VLC media player, and if someone can show me how to post them, then I will.
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Re: Who is greater Pele or Messi?

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The real deal wrote:Elder?
I do not think so
I doubt anyone on this forum has watched pele play live
Of course I did not watch Pele play "live," if by that you mean going to the stadium and watching him play live. Heck, I never saw Zidane play at a stadium either , something I would have loved to see. I was fortunate to see Messi play in the flesh at a stadium in Brazil, and I thank God for that great blessing. I will go to my grave a happy man. But when I was a young man, none of the blessings we have today such as easy air travel to see the world cup, or wall-to-well football coverage on TV from around the world existed.

Back in the day in Nigeria, we watched the games after the event on movie screens in the theatre. Also the British Library showed films at schools and they often showed Pele games because they were popular. We are talking about the 1960s here and the early 1970s.
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Re: Who is greater Pele or Messi?

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Exactly my point. Most of the love for Pele was cos of what commentators said about pele not what folks have seen. I willl be surprised If there's anyone thats seen 2 full Pele matches. Some never even saw 10 Zidane games............
In my life time, NO ONE, NO ONE comes close to Messi.
His assists too are out of this world
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Re: Who is greater Pele or Messi?

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What is so inconceivable, as to render the fact absent from all discussion, about the very possibility and absolute likelihood, that both the above are alien beings. Extraterrestrials. There’s only so much ability that can be learnt, taught, acquired. There are instances where the ability within the individual exceeds logic, explanation and all in between. These are not normal beings, upon accepting that reality, the argument is rendered meaningless.
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Re: Who is greater Pele or Messi?

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The real deal wrote:Exactly my point. Most of the love for Pele was cos of what commentators said about pele not what folks have seen. I willl be surprised If there's anyone thats seen 2 full Pele matches. Some never even saw 10 Zidane games............
In my life time, NO ONE, NO ONE comes close to Messi.
His assists too are out of this world
Chief, what is exactly your point? Did you read my post at all, or do you just see what you want to see? I've seen more than ten Pele matches. I have spent time studying the matter and conducting research on it. I actually had a blog called Soccergoat.com that I stopped a while back, so I am not just talking off the top of my head like you are. I have 24 Pele videos on my hard drive of which about ten are full games. I have seen full games on Youtube and have full game videos in my home.

If you want to believe that Messi is the best, that's your choice. But don't distort things to suit your belief.
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Re: Who is greater Pele or Messi?

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Coach wrote:What is so inconceivable, as to render the fact absent from all discussion, about the very possibility and absolute likelihood, that both the above are alien beings. Extraterrestrials. There’s only so much ability that can be learnt, taught, acquired. There are instances where the ability within the individual exceeds logic, explanation and all in between. These are not normal beings, upon accepting that reality, the argument is rendered meaningless.
:D :D
Coachito nwokem! How bodi now? You have been absent from the forum. Wetin happen? Did Madam put you on lockdown doing the dishes and stuff? :lol:

Anyway, you are correct, both are terrific alien beings, but some are more alien than others. Pele was unstoppable, not the least because he had godlike use of head and both legs. Messi is, was, and has always been eminently stoppable. :idea:
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Re: Who is greater Pele or Messi?

Post by joplass »

Messi is not even better than CR7. Dude is great within the Barca framework, other than that :boo:
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