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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:36 pm 
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Given Erik Ten Hag's journey with Ajax Amsterdam in the last two years, can he be classified as world class? Just asking. :winking:

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:41 pm 
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While he has consistently improved over the last 4-5 years, the consistency one needs to be classified as "world class" is in "performance at the top." He has never won a title in his coaching career and this is his first CL appearance.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:46 pm 
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danfo driver wrote:
While he has consistently improved over the last 4-5 years, the consistency one needs to be classified as "world class" is in "performance at the top." He has never won a title in his coaching career and this is his first CL appearance.


Agreed, this is his first CL appearance but he has done well with the talent at his disposal. Doing far more with less profile players than the guys that have so many words written about them, should be respected.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 2:58 pm 
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What is the definition of world class? It seems itS a term Nigerians use when they like a player they think had a good game with a big team. 24hrs ago nobody ever mentioned his name on CE, now he’s world class.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:11 pm 
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Enugu II wrote:
danfo driver wrote:
While he has consistently improved over the last 4-5 years, the consistency one needs to be classified as "world class" is in "performance at the top." He has never won a title in his coaching career and this is his first CL appearance.


Agreed, this is his first CL appearance but he has done well with the talent at his disposal. Doing far more with less profile players than the guys that have so many words written about them, should be respected.


Jardim did similar, beat Pep and Tuchel, Puel did the same but not one will call them world class. ten Hag hasn't even won a league yet.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:31 pm 
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EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote:
What is the definition of world class? It seems itS a term Nigerians use when they like a player they think had a good game with a big team. 24hrs ago nobody ever mentioned his name on CE, now he’s world class.


I am not certain what it is. What I know for sure is that it is subjective.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:33 pm 
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kalani JR wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
danfo driver wrote:
While he has consistently improved over the last 4-5 years, the consistency one needs to be classified as "world class" is in "performance at the top." He has never won a title in his coaching career and this is his first CL appearance.


Agreed, this is his first CL appearance but he has done well with the talent at his disposal. Doing far more with less profile players than the guys that have so many words written about them, should be respected.


Jardim did similar, beat Pep and Tuchel, Puel did the same but not one will call them world class. ten Hag hasn't even won a league yet.


Kalani,

What would you call him then A guy who uses less heralded players to beat heralded teams? :???: Or, wait a minute, Ajax's success may be due to the players unlike the successes of the likes of Klopp and Guardiola? :???:

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:35 pm 
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He certainly is better than Juve and Real class for sure. This one is no fluke. Someone please give the man a cookie for ‘reinventing’ the good old Dutch total football using novices and kids against squads assembled wth zillions.
He is football class for those who love the game and all it stands for.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:38 pm 
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hestonap wrote:
He certainly is better than Juve and Real class for sure. This one is no fluke. Someone please give the man a cookie for ‘reinventing’ the good old Dutch total football using novices and kids against squads assembled wth zillions.
He is football class for those who love the game and all it stands for.


Thanks for that point. This guy must be respected for upending teams built with zillions and then coaches are hyped based on those zillion-worth players. I will bow for this guy first before those who are hyped based on zillion-worth players.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:38 pm 
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Enugu II wrote:
kalani JR wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
danfo driver wrote:
While he has consistently improved over the last 4-5 years, the consistency one needs to be classified as "world class" is in "performance at the top." He has never won a title in his coaching career and this is his first CL appearance.


Agreed, this is his first CL appearance but he has done well with the talent at his disposal. Doing far more with less profile players than the guys that have so many words written about them, should be respected.


Jardim did similar, beat Pep and Tuchel, Puel did the same but not one will call them world class. ten Hag hasn't even won a league yet.


Kalani,

What would you call him then A guy who uses less heralded players to beat heralded teams? :???: Or, wait a minute, Ajax's success may be due to the players unlike the successes of the likes of Klopp and Guardiola? :???:


I call it a good run! Many managers have done this before and done nothing since. I think he's one to watch but there are at least five managers I think are better than him that I don't even call world class.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:40 pm 
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hestonap wrote:
He certainly is better than Juve and Real class for sure. This one is no fluke. Someone please give the man a cookie for ‘reinventing’ the good old Dutch total football using novices and kids against squads assembled wth zillions.
He is football class for those who love the game and all it stands for.


He won two legged ties, Zidane won three Champions Leagues in a row and Allegri has made finals appearances in half of the last four editions.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:40 pm 
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kalani JR wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
kalani JR wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
danfo driver wrote:
While he has consistently improved over the last 4-5 years, the consistency one needs to be classified as "world class" is in "performance at the top." He has never won a title in his coaching career and this is his first CL appearance.


Agreed, this is his first CL appearance but he has done well with the talent at his disposal. Doing far more with less profile players than the guys that have so many words written about them, should be respected.


Jardim did similar, beat Pep and Tuchel, Puel did the same but not one will call them world class. ten Hag hasn't even won a league yet.


Kalani,

What would you call him then A guy who uses less heralded players to beat heralded teams? :???: Or, wait a minute, Ajax's success may be due to the players unlike the successes of the likes of Klopp and Guardiola? :???:


I call it a good run! Many managers have done this before and done nothing since. I think he's one to watch but there are at least five managers I think are better than him that I don't even call world class.


Okay. But what would you call a guy who does it consistently but always on the back of a squad worth zillions? Should context (e.g. player pedigree at manager's disposal) not be a criterion for evaluating coaches?

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The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:43 pm 
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Enugu II wrote:
kalani JR wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
kalani JR wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
danfo driver wrote:
While he has consistently improved over the last 4-5 years, the consistency one needs to be classified as "world class" is in "performance at the top." He has never won a title in his coaching career and this is his first CL appearance.


Agreed, this is his first CL appearance but he has done well with the talent at his disposal. Doing far more with less profile players than the guys that have so many words written about them, should be respected.


Jardim did similar, beat Pep and Tuchel, Puel did the same but not one will call them world class. ten Hag hasn't even won a league yet.


Kalani,

What would you call him then A guy who uses less heralded players to beat heralded teams? :???: Or, wait a minute, Ajax's success may be due to the players unlike the successes of the likes of Klopp and Guardiola? :???:


I call it a good run! Many managers have done this before and done nothing since. I think he's one to watch but there are at least five managers I think are better than him that I don't even call world class.


Okay. But what would you call a guy who does it consistently but always on the back of a squad worth zillions? Should context not be a criterion for evaluating coaches?


Sure if they win consistently in competitive leagues then no problem with the world class designation. I just don't think one single run necessarily = world class.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:47 pm 
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kalani JR wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
kalani JR wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
kalani JR wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
danfo driver wrote:
While he has consistently improved over the last 4-5 years, the consistency one needs to be classified as "world class" is in "performance at the top." He has never won a title in his coaching career and this is his first CL appearance.


Agreed, this is his first CL appearance but he has done well with the talent at his disposal. Doing far more with less profile players than the guys that have so many words written about them, should be respected.


Jardim did similar, beat Pep and Tuchel, Puel did the same but not one will call them world class. ten Hag hasn't even won a league yet.


Kalani,

What would you call him then A guy who uses less heralded players to beat heralded teams? :???: Or, wait a minute, Ajax's success may be due to the players unlike the successes of the likes of Klopp and Guardiola? :???:


I call it a good run! Many managers have done this before and done nothing since. I think he's one to watch but there are at least five managers I think are better than him that I don't even call world class.


Okay. But what would you call a guy who does it consistently but always on the back of a squad worth zillions? Should context not be a criterion for evaluating coaches?


Sure if they win consistently in competitive leagues then no problem with the world class designation. I just don't think one single run necessarily = world class.


Kalani,

Let's leave the world class for a moment. The truth is that the term is used to attract attention to this thread. The point that I want to make substantively is that this guy's achievement, based on players at his disposal, is far more monumental that what the likes of Guardiola, Klopp, and others have done. Based on this that it is important to introduce contextual considerations in hyping coaches. Bring it home ( :lol: ) is to point out that Amuneke's work at Tanzania getting to the AFCON may well be more monumental that say Rohr getting Nigeria to the AFCON.

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The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:52 pm 
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Enugu II wrote:
kalani JR wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
kalani JR wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
danfo driver wrote:
While he has consistently improved over the last 4-5 years, the consistency one needs to be classified as "world class" is in "performance at the top." He has never won a title in his coaching career and this is his first CL appearance.


Agreed, this is his first CL appearance but he has done well with the talent at his disposal. Doing far more with less profile players than the guys that have so many words written about them, should be respected.


Jardim did similar, beat Pep and Tuchel, Puel did the same but not one will call them world class. ten Hag hasn't even won a league yet.


Kalani,

What would you call him then A guy who uses less heralded players to beat heralded teams? :???: Or, wait a minute, Ajax's success may be due to the players unlike the successes of the likes of Klopp and Guardiola? :???:


I call it a good run! Many managers have done this before and done nothing since. I think he's one to watch but there are at least five managers I think are better than him that I don't even call world class.


Okay. But what would you call a guy who does it consistently but always on the back of a squad worth zillions? Should context (e.g. player pedigree at manager's disposal) not be a criterion for evaluating coaches?



But what is the right context?

The modern game is first off about money, but football remains a game based on ideas- first from the players and then the manager who harnesses that into a team concept.

There's a lot written lately about this issue because of Guardiola's failures in the CL vs the money spent by his teams.

But football is primarily about ideas around the management of space.

In that context, what Pep has done is redefine the time-space dimension in the game. That is revolutionary....

Ten Hag is an up and coming manager who has won two brilliant games in the CL KO stages. Far too early to anoint him...

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We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


Last edited by txj on Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:53 pm 
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Enugu II wrote:

Kalani,

Let's leave the world class for a moment. The truth is that the term is used to attract attention to this thread. The point that I want to make substantively is that this guy's achievement, based on players at his disposal, is far more monumental that what the likes of Guardiola, Klopp, and others have done. Based on this that it is important to introduce contextual considerations in hyping coaches. Bring it home ( :lol: ) is to point out that Amuneke's work at Tanzania getting to the AFCON may well be more monumental that say Rohr getting Nigeria to the AFCON.


As far as this season achievements go, I'll put his up there.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 3:57 pm 
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Enugu II wrote:
Kalani,

Let's leave the world class for a moment. The truth is that the term is used to attract attention to this thread. The point that I want to make substantively is that this guy's achievement, based on players at his disposal, is far more monumental that what the likes of Guardiola, Klopp, and others have done. Based on this that it is important to introduce contextual considerations in hyping coaches. Bring it home ( :lol: ) is to point out that Amuneke's work at Tanzania getting to the AFCON may well be more monumental that say Rohr getting Nigeria to the AFCON.



He has beaten Juve and Madrid. That is the extent of his achievement atm, whatever the level of his players might be. In the next few weeks, he could be pipped for the title by PSV (I think not)...

There has to be more. Jardim won more CL games with Monaco, but also a Ligue 1 title...

And to suggest his "achievement" is far more monumental than Klopp and Guardiola? Based on what exactly?

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Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:13 pm 
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txj wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
Kalani,

Let's leave the world class for a moment. The truth is that the term is used to attract attention to this thread. The point that I want to make substantively is that this guy's achievement, based on players at his disposal, is far more monumental that what the likes of Guardiola, Klopp, and others have done. Based on this that it is important to introduce contextual considerations in hyping coaches. Bring it home ( :lol: ) is to point out that Amuneke's work at Tanzania getting to the AFCON may well be more monumental that say Rohr getting Nigeria to the AFCON.



He has beaten Juve and Madrid. That is the extent of his achievement atm, whatever the level of his players might be. In the next few weeks, he could be pipped for the title by PSV (I think not)...

There has to be more. Jardim won more CL games with Monaco, but also a Ligue 1 title...

And to suggest his "achievement" is far more monumental than Klopp and Guardiola? Based on what exactly?

txj,

The statement is based on the pedigree of players at the disposal of those that are compared. The context is important in making those comparisons as I point out.

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The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 4:50 pm 
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Enugu II wrote:
txj wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
Kalani,

Let's leave the world class for a moment. The truth is that the term is used to attract attention to this thread. The point that I want to make substantively is that this guy's achievement, based on players at his disposal, is far more monumental that what the likes of Guardiola, Klopp, and others have done. Based on this that it is important to introduce contextual considerations in hyping coaches. Bring it home ( :lol: ) is to point out that Amuneke's work at Tanzania getting to the AFCON may well be more monumental that say Rohr getting Nigeria to the AFCON.



He has beaten Juve and Madrid. That is the extent of his achievement atm, whatever the level of his players might be. In the next few weeks, he could be pipped for the title by PSV (I think not)...

There has to be more. Jardim won more CL games with Monaco, but also a Ligue 1 title...

And to suggest his "achievement" is far more monumental than Klopp and Guardiola? Based on what exactly?

txj,

The statement is based on the pedigree of players at the disposal of those that are compared. The context is important in making those comparisons as I point out.


Pedigree is ephemeral; talent is the key issue, and make no mistake, Ajax is a very, very talented team, built on a playing model that goes back more than half a century.

Its a far too incomplete a project to be making such conclusive comparisons. Winning two games as underdogs cannot be a valid basis for such comparisons or conclusions...

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Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 5:16 pm 
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kalani JR wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
danfo driver wrote:
While he has consistently improved over the last 4-5 years, the consistency one needs to be classified as "world class" is in "performance at the top." He has never won a title in his coaching career and this is his first CL appearance.


Agreed, this is his first CL appearance but he has done well with the talent at his disposal. Doing far more with less profile players than the guys that have so many words written about them, should be respected.


Jardim did similar, beat Pep and Tuchel, Puel did the same but not one will call them world class. ten Hag hasn't even won a league yet.





Bro This is a chance to show you what I mean.

Read your post and read TxJ's post. Tell me that you cannot notice the similarities. I am sorry, my man! but...this is not good. :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:39 pm 
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kalani JR wrote:
hestonap wrote:
He certainly is better than Juve and Real class for sure. This one is no fluke. Someone please give the man a cookie for ‘reinventing’ the good old Dutch total football using novices and kids against squads assembled wth zillions.
He is football class for those who love the game and all it stands for.


He won two legged ties, Zidane won three Champions Leagues in a row and Allegri has made finals appearances in half of the last four editions.


Since you chose to bring Zidane into this; well he had the luxury of World Cup winners and arguably the best player of his generation in his squad. This guy has kids and low profile players. They didn’t pack the bus, they beat bigger fishes while playing expansive and attractive football.

Not detracting from Zidane’s achievements but I find the work this chap has done very very impressive.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 7:49 pm 
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hestonap wrote:
kalani JR wrote:
hestonap wrote:
He certainly is better than Juve and Real class for sure. This one is no fluke. Someone please give the man a cookie for ‘reinventing’ the good old Dutch total football using novices and kids against squads assembled wth zillions.
He is football class for those who love the game and all it stands for.


He won two legged ties, Zidane won three Champions Leagues in a row and Allegri has made finals appearances in half of the last four editions.


Since you chose to bring Zidane into this; well he had the luxury of World Cup winners and arguably the best player of his generation in his squad. This guy has kids and low profile players. They didn’t pack the bus, they beat bigger fishes while playing expansive and attractive football.

Not detracting from Zidane’s achievements but I find the work this chap has done very very impressive.


Not denying that what Ajax has done this season is impressive but its only one season right now where nothing has been won and you can't proclaim a man world class just off a single season (see Andre Villas Boas).


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 19, 2019 8:58 pm 
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kalani JR wrote:
hestonap wrote:
kalani JR wrote:
hestonap wrote:
He certainly is better than Juve and Real class for sure. This one is no fluke. Someone please give the man a cookie for ‘reinventing’ the good old Dutch total football using novices and kids against squads assembled wth zillions.
He is football class for those who love the game and all it stands for.


He won two legged ties, Zidane won three Champions Leagues in a row and Allegri has made finals appearances in half of the last four editions.


Since you chose to bring Zidane into this; well he had the luxury of World Cup winners and arguably the best player of his generation in his squad. This guy has kids and low profile players. They didn’t pack the bus, they beat bigger fishes while playing expansive and attractive football.

Not detracting from Zidane’s achievements but I find the work this chap has done very very impressive.



Not denying that what Ajax has done this season is impressive but its only one season right now where nothing has been won and you can't proclaim a man world class just off a single season (see Andre Villas Boas).


I would disagree that a trophy has to be the decider of whether this coach has had a very significant season or not.

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