OUR AGBAYA POLICY AT U20 LEVEL IS ALIVE AND WELL

[Lolly]

A small test for my fellow ageologists.

Who is older?

Mr A


Mr B

I will continue asking until I get an answer from our CE ageologists. Who is older?

Don't obfuscate. This is not about older. This is about being under 20 years old and under.

Do the players above look the ages they purport to be? That's the issue at hand. Many will say yes they do, many will say no, they do not. In fact going by Twitter and Facebook, the vast majority of Nigerians believe they are way older than the ages the purport to be.

My personal position is, I suspect they are not the ages they purport to be. I do not have proof, but my strong suspicions remain.

Well, I will tell you now that Mr B was 17 in the picture above. And Mr A was 22. Now, could you tell from the pictures that Mr B was under 20? But I bet you can believe the Mr A is 22.

And let me add that Mr A and Mr B are the same person - Divine Oduduru. Divine was 17 in the picture taken in 2014 when he won silver in the World Junior Athletics Championship. And in 2018, 4 years later he looks much younger now that he lives and competes in the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Oduduru

Don't waste your time explaining, I know about the above pictures.

Besides, we have flogged this horse to death on this forum. Not once have I claimed there were over age. I have no proof and experience over the years have taught me to be cautious despite overwhelming evidence of our systematic and institutional age cheating history in these age grade tournaments.

Also, the pictures you have posted are exceptions and not the norm, so it holds no basis whatsoever in logic or evidence. It proves absolutely nothing. An exceptional circumstance has never equated to the norm. To be brutally honest, your pictures are nothing but a poor attempt to normalise the abnormal.

I do not know those players, I have no proof of cheating, so it will be wrong of me to make any categorical claim or accusations.

However, from those pictures, given our history of age cheating and the endemic corruption that permeates every aspect of our football, I am left with no choice but to have strong suspicions of age cheating. Note, this is not the same as saying they are definitely age cheats.

Calm down bro. You do get emotional in your posts sometimes.

My initial post was directed at the ageologists who have mastered the art of guessing peoples ages by their looks. Since you decided to respond on their behalf, my second posts was in response to your comment about a player being under 20 years old and under. Does Oduduru look under 20 years in his pic? I will say he doesn't. Does he look 22 years today? I will say he does. So in answer to your question, it is difficult to tell in some instances if a player is 20 years or under no matter how rugged, tough or smooth he looks.

But I will also add that I have always said and will say it again that majority of Nigerian footballers don't use their real age. And I have protested to the NFF on a couple of occasions, one leading to some players being dropped from one of the U-20 tournaments. The sad truth is some are even in the right age bracket but will still reduce their age a little to make room for increased youth football opportunities. Anyone who follows our football (and I am not talking about those who rely on CE for their Nigerian football news) which you know I do, is aware of what goes on with crooked agents, coaches and academies. No need denying it.

No bro, I am not getting emotional. However. I just feel this whole thing is unfair on the players who are not age cheats.

In effect, we are both saying the same thing.

Whilst I believe there are some age cheats, what has now become the real problem is every player in these aged competitions are now seen as age cheats. For example, Johnathan Zaccalla is no age cheat but he is now tarred with the same brush of being a cheat by association. This is the real unfairness in the system.

Yes we are saying the same thing. And that is why I would rarely make statements directed at any player unless I can find proof of document forgery or know them personally. And if I have evidence, I will write or call contacts at NFF if I have any. Trust me it works better than arguing on social media. The NFF will usually act if there is evidence. The problem is getting the evidence. The players have become smarter these days and would usually change their full name, to avoid being detected from playing history which you might find on google.

But going by the comments, it now appears that we have reverted to type after a few years of trying to do the right thing.

[txj]

Yes we are saying the same thing. And that is why I would rarely make statements directed at any player unless I can find proof of document forgery or know them personally. And if I have evidence, I will write or call contacts at NFF if I have any. Trust me it works better than arguing on social media. The NFF will usually act if there is evidence. The problem is getting the evidence. The players have become smarter these days and would usually change their full name, to avoid being detected from playing history which you might find on google.

But going by the comments, it now appears that we have reverted to type after a few years of trying to do the right thing.

The highlighted portion tells me you are clueless about this...

[Lolly]

Yes we are saying the same thing. And that is why I would rarely make statements directed at any player unless I can find proof of document forgery or know them personally. And if I have evidence, I will write or call contacts at NFF if I have any. Trust me it works better than arguing on social media. The NFF will usually act if there is evidence. The problem is getting the evidence. The players have become smarter these days and would usually change their full name, to avoid being detected from playing history which you might find on google.

But going by the comments, it now appears that we have reverted to type after a few years of trying to do the right thing.

The highlighted portion tells me you are clueless about this...

No be today. You really don't have a clue.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=192123

[theYemster]

But on a serious note; if Nigeria appropriately defines her objective with age-grade tournament ( unearthing of talents), it would be very easy to stamp out age cheating. Just promote and monitor players during secondary school tournaments. Select only players with proven school records and only make exceptions in extraordinary rare cases.

I agree. Sigh, sadly many of the players I saw in that team don't pass the eye test.

If were in charge, I won't select any player in any professional team, I'll also not select any player without proper birth records, by proper I mean one that's been documented at the time of birth and during childhood. By now the FA should've started a nationwide awareness program and drive to inform the public and potential future parents on the importance of registering any birth. Make it mandatory, such that there's a penalty to parents if their kids are found not to have proper birth records. Work with govt to make it as seamless as possible. Let them know that if they don't properly register them, they will encounter problems in future. They should even record DNA, blood type, blood group, genotype etc.

It'll make forging ages much more difficult if all those info are documented at birth.

You are making HUGE assumptions here, all based on what you feel a 20yr old Nigerian should look like.

You've read the first-hand experience of Ugbowo, but refuse to factor it into your conclusions.
You've assumed the authorities are not doing at least some of what you say they should be doing and have no idea the number of players rejected for the very reasons you suggest. I guess until they send you a personal email detailing what has transpired, there's no way it coulda happened, right?

But most importantly you are not even calling for even one iota of evidence from anyone anywhere on the age cheating allegation. Its all based on TV camera images and photographs as if you do not have any life experience that tells you that images can be deceptive and meeting a person in real life can be a totally different story.

Is there something wrong with our people or maybe our culture that makes us value feelings over fact 9 times out of 10?

Maybe this is an emotional matter, but this is not the way TheYemster of RnR routinely analyses issues.

I've not made any assumptions. I've stated facts. I didn't say they're overage, I said they don't pass the eye test. And they don't. That doesn't mean they are overage, it just means they don't look under 20. Greg Oden and LeBron also didn't pass the eye test at age 20 but the detailed records were available to back it up. That's the key difference here.

The second part of my post is basically what I would do to mitigate the chances of selecting overage players. Are they currently doing that now? Who knows. But that's part of what I would do olif it were up to me.

Also, I will never select any player that already plays in the local league. I believe there are very few U20 year old players in the league, that's even if there's any at all.

[txj]

Yes we are saying the same thing. And that is why I would rarely make statements directed at any player unless I can find proof of document forgery or know them personally. And if I have evidence, I will write or call contacts at NFF if I have any. Trust me it works better than arguing on social media. The NFF will usually act if there is evidence. The problem is getting the evidence. The players have become smarter these days and would usually change their full name, to avoid being detected from playing history which you might find on google.

But going by the comments, it now appears that we have reverted to type after a few years of trying to do the right thing.

The highlighted portion tells me you are clueless about this...

No be today. You really don't have a clue.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=192123

Everything, and I mean every single thing being done about age cheating, is with the tacit and direct approval of the NFF.

[Damunk]

Well, I will tell you now that Mr B was 17 in the picture above. And Mr A was 22. Now, could you tell from the pictures that Mr B was under 20? But I bet you can believe the Mr A is 22.

And let me add that Mr A and Mr B are the same person - Divine Oduduru. Divine was 17 in the picture taken in 2014 when he won silver in the World Junior Athletics Championship. And in 2018, 4 years later he looks much younger now that he lives and competes in the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Oduduru

Also, the pictures you have posted are exceptions and not the norm, so it holds no basis whatsoever in logic or evidence. It proves absolutely nothing. An exceptional circumstance has never equated to the norm. To be brutally honest, your pictures are nothing but a poor attempt to normalise the abnormal.

Waffi, with all due respect, the case as demonstrated by those pictures is NOT an exception. You mean you do not believe that an individual can look younger or older, 'fresher' or 'rougher' depending on numerous variables?
There is nothing unusual about the pictures Lolly has posted.

The nutritional state (for example) of an individual has huge effects on appearance.
The whites of the eyes (sclera) and subcutaneous facial fat are affected by nutrition and are key in howwe estimate the age of the individual.
Even eye size is a factor.

It is far too subjective and unreliable within age brackets and mcal also made an excellent point about why in the US UK etc they ask for age verification in shops because too many kids look far older than what we subjectively feel they should look for their ages.

[Enugu II]

The CE archives are an interesting repository of information sometimes.

The same slew of characters like Damunk, Gotti and EII can be found criticizing those who dared to question Yomi Tella’s team and asking for evidence.

We have since come to find out that the suspicious patterns that were highlighted by the whistleblowers was indeed well founded.

Just like it was for the 1989 team, the 2013, 2005, the Chukwudi team, etc.

Btw, what exactly is it that supposedly "was indeed well founded"?

Is it that the purportedly then "36-year-old" Dele Ajiboye is still active 12 years later and was even recently called up by Oyinbo coach Gernot Rohr to the main SE squad (after starring for the CHAN SEs)? Or is it that of the Spain U17 team in the same 2007 U17 WC tournament (that the Tella team only managed to beat via a PK shootout), only GK De Gea has gone on to be an establish senior international for Spain (with "stars" like Bojan being a bench player at second divsion Stoke City)? Or is it that several of the other U17 teams at the same 2007 U17 (including powerhouses like France and Argentina) have not even had a single player on their team become establish internationals at the senior level?
>

Nice try as always Gotti!

Let's take Spain as an example from above:

You become an established international by becoming an established senior team player, so the frame of reference should be both international as well as senior team careers, as well as longevity in the game.

So what about the following:

Nacho
Camacho
Falque
Illaramendi

However, that is not to completely discount your point that the attrition rate is high in the transition from youth to senior football.

But that does not begin to explain several other issues. For one, the issue of longevity at senior level...

Txj,

What is the issue of longevity that you mention. Give an example or provide support for the claim. Or are we to simply believe it because you stated it? I certainly have my doubts. Provide compelling support for the claim so that I will lean towards believing it. I state this because there are numerous factors that account for longevity of playing careers at the senior level including overall performance of the team, players' age of access to the senior team, etc.

IMO, age cheating exists in Nigeria's football. I can provide support for this (not using rather unconvincing observation of photographs) but I certainly will argue exactly the opposite on its effect on senior careers, BTW.

[Waffiman]

Well, I will tell you now that Mr B was 17 in the picture above. And Mr A was 22. Now, could you tell from the pictures that Mr B was under 20? But I bet you can believe the Mr A is 22.

And let me add that Mr A and Mr B are the same person - Divine Oduduru. Divine was 17 in the picture taken in 2014 when he won silver in the World Junior Athletics Championship. And in 2018, 4 years later he looks much younger now that he lives and competes in the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Oduduru

Also, the pictures you have posted are exceptions and not the norm, so it holds no basis whatsoever in logic or evidence. It proves absolutely nothing. An exceptional circumstance has never equated to the norm. To be brutally honest, your pictures are nothing but a poor attempt to normalise the abnormal.

Waffi, with all due respect, the case as demonstrated by those pictures is NOT an exception. You mean you do not believe that an individual can look younger or older, 'fresher' or 'rougher' depending on numerous variables?
There is nothing unusual about the pictures Lolly has posted.

The nutritional state (for example) of an individual has huge effects on appearance.
The whites of the eyes (sclera) and subcutaneous facial fat are affected by nutrition and are key in howwe estimate the age of the individual.
Even eye size is a factor.

It is far too subjective and unreliable within age brackets and mcal also made an excellent point about why in the US UK etc they ask for age verification in shops because too many kids look far older than what we subjectively feel they should look for their ages.

I beg to disagree. It is not the norm for teenagers to look much older than their ages. It is not the norm for teenagers to look like older adults and young adults.

Yes. I acknowledge that a tough, rough life can make a teenager look older, but I disagree if you insist this is normal because it is not.

[Enugu II]

Well, I will tell you now that Mr B was 17 in the picture above. And Mr A was 22. Now, could you tell from the pictures that Mr B was under 20? But I bet you can believe the Mr A is 22.

And let me add that Mr A and Mr B are the same person - Divine Oduduru. Divine was 17 in the picture taken in 2014 when he won silver in the World Junior Athletics Championship. And in 2018, 4 years later he looks much younger now that he lives and competes in the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Oduduru

Also, the pictures you have posted are exceptions and not the norm, so it holds no basis whatsoever in logic or evidence. It proves absolutely nothing. An exceptional circumstance has never equated to the norm. To be brutally honest, your pictures are nothing but a poor attempt to normalise the abnormal.

Waffi, with all due respect, the case as demonstrated by those pictures is NOT an exception. You mean you do not believe that an individual can look younger or older, 'fresher' or 'rougher' depending on numerous variables?
There is nothing unusual about the pictures Lolly has posted.

The nutritional state (for example) of an individual has huge effects on appearance.
The whites of the eyes (sclera) and subcutaneous facial fat are affected by nutrition and are key in howwe estimate the age of the individual.
Even eye size is a factor.

It is far too subjective and unreliable within age brackets and mcal also made an excellent point about why in the US UK etc they ask for age verification in shops because too many kids look far older than what we subjectively feel they should look for their ages.

I beg to disagree. It is not the norm for teenagers to look much older than their ages. It is not the norm for teenagers to look like older adults and young adults.

Yes. I acknowledge that a tough, rough life can make a teenager look older, but I disagree if you insist this is normal because it is not.

Waffi,

The point made by Damunk is strong. No one can tel a kid's age by looking at a photo or observing the child. Furthermore, he has actually advanced reasons why this cannot be done.

Let me give you an example. My oldest son was much taller and physically imposing than his age mates when he was playing at U13 level for his club. At one tournament, the referee came to him and joking stated "Hey, your game is up the hill (referring to where the U16s were playing)." It is a slippery slope making claims of a player's age without examining documents or using a scientific measure. Fortunately, FIFA does not rely on looking at a player's physique to determine age. Why? Because it will be obviously ridiculous to do so.

[txj]

The CE archives are an interesting repository of information sometimes.

The same slew of characters like Damunk, Gotti and EII can be found criticizing those who dared to question Yomi Tella’s team and asking for evidence.

We have since come to find out that the suspicious patterns that were highlighted by the whistleblowers was indeed well founded.

Just like it was for the 1989 team, the 2013, 2005, the Chukwudi team, etc.

Btw, what exactly is it that supposedly "was indeed well founded"?

Is it that the purportedly then "36-year-old" Dele Ajiboye is still active 12 years later and was even recently called up by Oyinbo coach Gernot Rohr to the main SE squad (after starring for the CHAN SEs)? Or is it that of the Spain U17 team in the same 2007 U17 WC tournament (that the Tella team only managed to beat via a PK shootout), only GK De Gea has gone on to be an establish senior international for Spain (with "stars" like Bojan being a bench player at second divsion Stoke City)? Or is it that several of the other U17 teams at the same 2007 U17 (including powerhouses like France and Argentina) have not even had a single player on their team become establish internationals at the senior level?
>

Nice try as always Gotti!

Let's take Spain as an example from above:

You become an established international by becoming an established senior team player, so the frame of reference should be both international as well as senior team careers, as well as longevity in the game.

So what about the following:

Nacho
Camacho
Falque
Illaramendi

However, that is not to completely discount your point that the attrition rate is high in the transition from youth to senior football.

But that does not begin to explain several other issues. For one, the issue of longevity at senior level...

Txj,

What is the issue of longevity that you mention. Give an example or provide support for the claim. Or are we to simply believe it because you stated it? I certainly have my doubts. Provide compelling support for the claim so that I will lean towards believing it. I state this because there are numerous factors that account for longevity of playing careers at the senior level including overall performance of the team, players' age of access to the senior team, etc.

IMO, age cheating exists in Nigeria's football. I can provide support for this (not using rather unconvincing observation of photographs) but I certainly will argue exactly the opposite on its effect on senior careers, BTW.

It is self explanatory- longevity in the game at the senior level. I am preparing a report on that- if I can get the time to compete it. And yes, there are factors in the game that impact longevity besides age, such as injuries. But age remains the dominant factor...esp, as you noted above, age of access to the senior team...

[txj]

Well, I will tell you now that Mr B was 17 in the picture above. And Mr A was 22. Now, could you tell from the pictures that Mr B was under 20? But I bet you can believe the Mr A is 22.

And let me add that Mr A and Mr B are the same person - Divine Oduduru. Divine was 17 in the picture taken in 2014 when he won silver in the World Junior Athletics Championship. And in 2018, 4 years later he looks much younger now that he lives and competes in the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Oduduru

Also, the pictures you have posted are exceptions and not the norm, so it holds no basis whatsoever in logic or evidence. It proves absolutely nothing. An exceptional circumstance has never equated to the norm. To be brutally honest, your pictures are nothing but a poor attempt to normalise the abnormal.

Waffi, with all due respect, the case as demonstrated by those pictures is NOT an exception. You mean you do not believe that an individual can look younger or older, 'fresher' or 'rougher' depending on numerous variables?
There is nothing unusual about the pictures Lolly has posted.

The nutritional state (for example) of an individual has huge effects on appearance.
The whites of the eyes (sclera) and subcutaneous facial fat are affected by nutrition and are key in howwe estimate the age of the individual.
Even eye size is a factor.

It is far too subjective and unreliable within age brackets and mcal also made an excellent point about why in the US UK etc they ask for age verification in shops because too many kids look far older than what we subjectively feel they should look for their ages.

I beg to disagree. It is not the norm for teenagers to look much older than their ages. It is not the norm for teenagers to look like older adults and young adults.

Yes. I acknowledge that a tough, rough life can make a teenager look older, but I disagree if you insist this is normal because it is not.

Waffi,

The point made by Damunk is strong. No one can tel a kid's age by looking at a photo or observing the child. Furthermore, he has actually advanced reasons why this cannot be done.

Let me give you an example. My oldest son was much taller and physically imposing than his age mates when he was playing at U13 level for his club. At one tournament, the referee came to him and joking stated "Hey, your game is up the hill (referring to where the U16s were playing)." It is a slippery slope making claims of a player's age without examining documents or using a scientific measure. Fortunately, FIFA does not rely on looking at a player's physique to determine age. Why? Because it will be obviously ridiculous to do so.

Obviously, merely looking at a player's picture is not scientific and cannot be the sole basis for reaching a conclusion.

But in the case of Nigeria, there are additional factors that MAY support a case for being suspicious of claimed eligibility.

- the long, well established history of cheating in youth tournaments at both men and women football.
- the process for selection of players
- the manner of use of MRI, including the volume of failed tests
- the absence of any serious attempt at verification of age eligibility besides the use of MRI
- anecdotal evidence from playing colleagues
- longevity of players at the senior level
- nature and frequency of certain injury types associated with age/longevity in the game

[Waffiman]

The CE archives are an interesting repository of information sometimes.

The same slew of characters like Damunk, Gotti and EII can be found criticizing those who dared to question Yomi Tella’s team and asking for evidence.

We have since come to find out that the suspicious patterns that were highlighted by the whistleblowers was indeed well founded.

Just like it was for the 1989 team, the 2013, 2005, the Chukwudi team, etc.

Btw, what exactly is it that supposedly "was indeed well founded"?

Is it that the purportedly then "36-year-old" Dele Ajiboye is still active 12 years later and was even recently called up by Oyinbo coach Gernot Rohr to the main SE squad (after starring for the CHAN SEs)? Or is it that of the Spain U17 team in the same 2007 U17 WC tournament (that the Tella team only managed to beat via a PK shootout), only GK De Gea has gone on to be an establish senior international for Spain (with "stars" like Bojan being a bench player at second divsion Stoke City)? Or is it that several of the other U17 teams at the same 2007 U17 (including powerhouses like France and Argentina) have not even had a single player on their team become establish internationals at the senior level?
>

Nice try as always Gotti!

Let's take Spain as an example from above:

You become an established international by becoming an established senior team player, so the frame of reference should be both international as well as senior team careers, as well as longevity in the game.

So what about the following:

Nacho
Camacho
Falque
Illaramendi

However, that is not to completely discount your point that the attrition rate is high in the transition from youth to senior football.

But that does not begin to explain several other issues. For one, the issue of longevity at senior level...

Txj,

What is the issue of longevity that you mention. Give an example or provide support for the claim. Or are we to simply believe it because you stated it? I certainly have my doubts. Provide compelling support for the claim so that I will lean towards believing it. I state this because there are numerous factors that account for longevity of playing careers at the senior level including overall performance of the team, players' age of access to the senior team, etc.

IMO, age cheating exists in Nigeria's football. I can provide support for this (not using rather unconvincing observation of photographs) but I certainly will argue exactly the opposite on its effect on senior careers, BTW.

There is evidence for age cheating which has built over the years years all over this forum.

On longevity, there is evidence that far more of the European players from youth teams go on to make senior professional careers in various levels of the European leagues whilst the examples of our youth team players going on to make senior careers at any levels of the game as a professional for an average of 5 years is rare. But the numbers vary from class to class and they are not consistent enough to be used as evidence.

Also, we have to factor in the degree of difficulty for our players to make it as professionals when compared to their European counterparts. Our players have an uphill task making this break through when you consider how difficult how difficult it us for their European counterparts.

I used to he of the view that one reason why we had a very low junior to senior level player graduation was down to age cheating. But I have looked at this in detail and came to the conclusion that it is nigh on impossible to make any sort of conclusion in this matter. For starters, we do not have studies, meta analysis or reports that take a scientific look at the rate of player graduation from junior to senior professional.

Using crude data for like for like comparisons with European players is no basis to form any sort of arguement or conclusion on this issue. If you want to use this as a basis for comparisons, then understand its considerable limitations and be careful on how you formulate any conclusions.

Also, the attrition or failure rate for the European players is very high and we cannot use age as a reason for the high rate of failure to take the next step building a professional career without considering so many other variables.

[Waffiman]

Well, I will tell you now that Mr B was 17 in the picture above. And Mr A was 22. Now, could you tell from the pictures that Mr B was under 20? But I bet you can believe the Mr A is 22.

And let me add that Mr A and Mr B are the same person - Divine Oduduru. Divine was 17 in the picture taken in 2014 when he won silver in the World Junior Athletics Championship. And in 2018, 4 years later he looks much younger now that he lives and competes in the US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_Oduduru

Also, the pictures you have posted are exceptions and not the norm, so it holds no basis whatsoever in logic or evidence. It proves absolutely nothing. An exceptional circumstance has never equated to the norm. To be brutally honest, your pictures are nothing but a poor attempt to normalise the abnormal.

Waffi, with all due respect, the case as demonstrated by those pictures is NOT an exception. You mean you do not believe that an individual can look younger or older, 'fresher' or 'rougher' depending on numerous variables?
There is nothing unusual about the pictures Lolly has posted.

The nutritional state (for example) of an individual has huge effects on appearance.
The whites of the eyes (sclera) and subcutaneous facial fat are affected by nutrition and are key in howwe estimate the age of the individual.
Even eye size is a factor.

It is far too subjective and unreliable within age brackets and mcal also made an excellent point about why in the US UK etc they ask for age verification in shops because too many kids look far older than what we subjectively feel they should look for their ages.

I beg to disagree. It is not the norm for teenagers to look much older than their ages. It is not the norm for teenagers to look like older adults and young adults.

Yes. I acknowledge that a tough, rough life can make a teenager look older, but I disagree if you insist this is normal because it is not.

Waffi,

The point made by Damunk is strong. No one can tel a kid's age by looking at a photo or observing the child. Furthermore, he has actually advanced reasons why this cannot be done.

Let me give you an example. My oldest son was much taller and physically imposing than his age mates when he was playing at U13 level for his club. At one tournament, the referee came to him and joking stated "Hey, your game is up the hill (referring to where the U16s were playing)." It is a slippery slope making claims of a player's age without examining documents or using a scientific measure. Fortunately, FIFA does not rely on looking at a player's physique to determine age. Why? Because it will be obviously ridiculous to do so.

Of course no one can be certain of anyone's age by looks alone. I made this point earlier. However, my general point on teenagers not looking like older adults being normal is my contention. Teenagers looking like older adults is not normal.

I also, stated earlier in my post that given our record on these issues, I am left with no option but to be strongly suspicious of the ages of some of the players in our Flying Eagles squad.

[txj]

The CE archives are an interesting repository of information sometimes.

The same slew of characters like Damunk, Gotti and EII can be found criticizing those who dared to question Yomi Tella’s team and asking for evidence.

We have since come to find out that the suspicious patterns that were highlighted by the whistleblowers was indeed well founded.

Just like it was for the 1989 team, the 2013, 2005, the Chukwudi team, etc.

Btw, what exactly is it that supposedly "was indeed well founded"?

Is it that the purportedly then "36-year-old" Dele Ajiboye is still active 12 years later and was even recently called up by Oyinbo coach Gernot Rohr to the main SE squad (after starring for the CHAN SEs)? Or is it that of the Spain U17 team in the same 2007 U17 WC tournament (that the Tella team only managed to beat via a PK shootout), only GK De Gea has gone on to be an establish senior international for Spain (with "stars" like Bojan being a bench player at second divsion Stoke City)? Or is it that several of the other U17 teams at the same 2007 U17 (including powerhouses like France and Argentina) have not even had a single player on their team become establish internationals at the senior level?
>

Nice try as always Gotti!

Let's take Spain as an example from above:

You become an established international by becoming an established senior team player, so the frame of reference should be both international as well as senior team careers, as well as longevity in the game.

So what about the following:

Nacho
Camacho
Falque
Illaramendi

However, that is not to completely discount your point that the attrition rate is high in the transition from youth to senior football.

But that does not begin to explain several other issues. For one, the issue of longevity at senior level...

Txj,

What is the issue of longevity that you mention. Give an example or provide support for the claim. Or are we to simply believe it because you stated it? I certainly have my doubts. Provide compelling support for the claim so that I will lean towards believing it. I state this because there are numerous factors that account for longevity of playing careers at the senior level including overall performance of the team, players' age of access to the senior team, etc.

IMO, age cheating exists in Nigeria's football. I can provide support for this (not using rather unconvincing observation of photographs) but I certainly will argue exactly the opposite on its effect on senior careers, BTW.

There is evidence for age cheating which has built over the years years all over this forum.

On longevity, there is evidence that far more of the European players from youth teams go on to make senior professional careers in various levels of the European leagues whilst the examples of our youth team players going on to make senior careers at any levels of the game as a professional for an average of 5 years is rare. But the numbers vary from class to class and they are not consistent enough to be used as evidence.

Also, we have to factor in the degree of difficulty for our players to make it as professionals when compared to their European counterparts. Our players have an uphill task making this break through when you consider how difficult how difficult it us for their European counterparts.

I used to he of the view that one reason why we had a very low junior to senior level player graduation was down to age cheating. But I have looked at this in detail and came to the conclusion that it is nigh on impossible to make any sort of conclusion in this matter. For starters, we do not have studies, meta analysis or reports that take a scientific look at the rate of player graduation from junior to senior professional.

Using crude data for like for like comparisons with European players is no basis to form any sort of arguement or conclusion on this issue. If you want to use this as a basis for comparisons, then understand its considerable limitations and be careful on how you formulate any conclusions.

Also, the attrition or failure rate for the European players is very high and we cannot use age as a reason for the high rate of failure to take the next step building a professional career without considering so many other variables.

You are right in many of the points above, and that is why the study I've embarked on is taking quite sometime.

However, attrition rate in transition from junior to senior football is not what I'm measuring, because it is hard to objectively establish a causality of age/cheating behind this. but longevity, once a breakthrough is made, is what I'm looking at.

[Enugu II]

The CE archives are an interesting repository of information sometimes.

The same slew of characters like Damunk, Gotti and EII can be found criticizing those who dared to question Yomi Tella’s team and asking for evidence.

We have since come to find out that the suspicious patterns that were highlighted by the whistleblowers was indeed well founded.

Just like it was for the 1989 team, the 2013, 2005, the Chukwudi team, etc.

Btw, what exactly is it that supposedly "was indeed well founded"?

Is it that the purportedly then "36-year-old" Dele Ajiboye is still active 12 years later and was even recently called up by Oyinbo coach Gernot Rohr to the main SE squad (after starring for the CHAN SEs)? Or is it that of the Spain U17 team in the same 2007 U17 WC tournament (that the Tella team only managed to beat via a PK shootout), only GK De Gea has gone on to be an establish senior international for Spain (with "stars" like Bojan being a bench player at second divsion Stoke City)? Or is it that several of the other U17 teams at the same 2007 U17 (including powerhouses like France and Argentina) have not even had a single player on their team become establish internationals at the senior level?
>

Nice try as always Gotti!

Let's take Spain as an example from above:

You become an established international by becoming an established senior team player, so the frame of reference should be both international as well as senior team careers, as well as longevity in the game.

So what about the following:

Nacho
Camacho
Falque
Illaramendi

However, that is not to completely discount your point that the attrition rate is high in the transition from youth to senior football.

But that does not begin to explain several other issues. For one, the issue of longevity at senior level...

Txj,

What is the issue of longevity that you mention. Give an example or provide support for the claim. Or are we to simply believe it because you stated it? I certainly have my doubts. Provide compelling support for the claim so that I will lean towards believing it. I state this because there are numerous factors that account for longevity of playing careers at the senior level including overall performance of the team, players' age of access to the senior team, etc.

IMO, age cheating exists in Nigeria's football. I can provide support for this (not using rather unconvincing observation of photographs) but I certainly will argue exactly the opposite on its effect on senior careers, BTW.

There is evidence for age cheating which has built over the years years all over this forum.

On longevity, there is evidence that far more of the European players from youth teams go on to make senior professional careers in various levels of the European leagues whilst the examples of our youth team players going on to make senior careers at any levels of the game as a professional for an average of 5 years is rare. But the numbers vary from class to class and they are not consistent enough to be used as evidence.

Also, we have to factor in the degree of difficulty for our players to make it as professionals when compared to their European counterparts. Our players have an uphill task making this break through when you consider how difficult how difficult it us for their European counterparts.

I used to he of the view that one reason why we had a very low junior to senior level player graduation was down to age cheating. But I have looked at this in detail and came to the conclusion that it is nigh on impossible to make any sort of conclusion in this matter. For starters, we do not have studies, meta analysis or reports that take a scientific look at the rate of player graduation from junior to senior professional.

Using crude data for like for like comparisons with European players is no basis to form any sort of arguement or conclusion on this issue. If you want to use this as a basis for comparisons, then understand its considerable limitations and be careful on how you formulate any conclusions.

Also, the attrition or failure rate for the European players is very high and we cannot use age as a reason for the high rate of failure to take the next step building a professional career without considering so many other variables.

You are right in many of the points above, and that is why the study I've embarked on is taking quite sometime.

However, attrition rate in transition from junior to senior football is not what I'm measuring, because it is hard to objectively establish a causality of age/cheating behind this. but longevity, once a breakthrough is made, is what I'm looking at.

Txj,

I would hope that you finish as it could shed some light to these issues. My hypothesis on the issue of longevity, as it is related to age, follows the lines of reasoning below:

1. That Nigeria uses overage players say a player aged 24 for a U20 competition (This is the assumption to hold the hypothesis).
2. #1 above should mean that this player is at the peak of his career and is, therefore, more likely to make a senior team than using a true 19 year old whose peak is unknown.
3. Thus, the expectation is Nigerian players at U20 level are more likely to make the senior level football comparatively.
4. However, because the player was already above his age level he will play at a senior level slightly less longer comparatively.

The lines of thought above, however, are not foolproof. For instance, the assumption is that the U20 team was well scouted meaning that those in it represent the best 24 year olds or thereabouts who are Nigerians. As you know, this thinking could be inaccurate.

Second with #4, if coaches are depending on listed ages to determine how long to keep a player in a senior squad, the hypothesis could also be wrong. Why? because a Nigerian player may be kept much longer in a senior team because of his stated age whereas he could be over 30 years old. This point is made because players are using the academy route where an age is assumed and it is getting them into European teams more than using the NPFL route and this could be attributed to European coaches perception of age and its value.

[txj]

The CE archives are an interesting repository of information sometimes.

The same slew of characters like Damunk, Gotti and EII can be found criticizing those who dared to question Yomi Tella’s team and asking for evidence.

We have since come to find out that the suspicious patterns that were highlighted by the whistleblowers was indeed well founded.

Just like it was for the 1989 team, the 2013, 2005, the Chukwudi team, etc.

Btw, what exactly is it that supposedly "was indeed well founded"?

Is it that the purportedly then "36-year-old" Dele Ajiboye is still active 12 years later and was even recently called up by Oyinbo coach Gernot Rohr to the main SE squad (after starring for the CHAN SEs)? Or is it that of the Spain U17 team in the same 2007 U17 WC tournament (that the Tella team only managed to beat via a PK shootout), only GK De Gea has gone on to be an establish senior international for Spain (with "stars" like Bojan being a bench player at second divsion Stoke City)? Or is it that several of the other U17 teams at the same 2007 U17 (including powerhouses like France and Argentina) have not even had a single player on their team become establish internationals at the senior level?
>

Nice try as always Gotti!

Let's take Spain as an example from above:

You become an established international by becoming an established senior team player, so the frame of reference should be both international as well as senior team careers, as well as longevity in the game.

So what about the following:

Nacho
Camacho
Falque
Illaramendi

However, that is not to completely discount your point that the attrition rate is high in the transition from youth to senior football.

But that does not begin to explain several other issues. For one, the issue of longevity at senior level...

Txj,

What is the issue of longevity that you mention. Give an example or provide support for the claim. Or are we to simply believe it because you stated it? I certainly have my doubts. Provide compelling support for the claim so that I will lean towards believing it. I state this because there are numerous factors that account for longevity of playing careers at the senior level including overall performance of the team, players' age of access to the senior team, etc.

IMO, age cheating exists in Nigeria's football. I can provide support for this (not using rather unconvincing observation of photographs) but I certainly will argue exactly the opposite on its effect on senior careers, BTW.

There is evidence for age cheating which has built over the years years all over this forum.

On longevity, there is evidence that far more of the European players from youth teams go on to make senior professional careers in various levels of the European leagues whilst the examples of our youth team players going on to make senior careers at any levels of the game as a professional for an average of 5 years is rare. But the numbers vary from class to class and they are not consistent enough to be used as evidence.

Also, we have to factor in the degree of difficulty for our players to make it as professionals when compared to their European counterparts. Our players have an uphill task making this break through when you consider how difficult how difficult it us for their European counterparts.

I used to he of the view that one reason why we had a very low junior to senior level player graduation was down to age cheating. But I have looked at this in detail and came to the conclusion that it is nigh on impossible to make any sort of conclusion in this matter. For starters, we do not have studies, meta analysis or reports that take a scientific look at the rate of player graduation from junior to senior professional.

Using crude data for like for like comparisons with European players is no basis to form any sort of arguement or conclusion on this issue. If you want to use this as a basis for comparisons, then understand its considerable limitations and be careful on how you formulate any conclusions.

Also, the attrition or failure rate for the European players is very high and we cannot use age as a reason for the high rate of failure to take the next step building a professional career without considering so many other variables.

You are right in many of the points above, and that is why the study I've embarked on is taking quite sometime.

However, attrition rate in transition from junior to senior football is not what I'm measuring, because it is hard to objectively establish a causality of age/cheating behind this. but longevity, once a breakthrough is made, is what I'm looking at.

Txj,

I would hope that you finish as it could shed some light to these issues. My hypothesis on the issue of longevity, as it is related to age, follows the lines of reasoning below:

1. That Nigeria uses overage players say a player aged 24 for a U20 competition (This is the assumption to hold the hypothesis).
2. #1 above should mean that this player is at the peak of his career and is, therefore, more likely to make a senior team than using a true 19 year old whose peak is unknown.
3. Thus, the expectation is Nigerian players at U20 level are more likely to make the senior level football comparatively.
4. However, because the player was already above his age level he will play at a senior level slightly less longer comparatively.

The lines of thought above, however, are not foolproof. For instance, the assumption is that the U20 team was well scouted meaning that those in it represent the best 24 year olds or thereabouts who are Nigerians. As you know, this thinking could be inaccurate.

Second with #4, if coaches are depending on listed ages to determine how long to keep a player in a senior squad, the hypothesis could also be wrong. Why? because a Nigerian player may be kept much longer in a senior team because of his stated age whereas he could be over 30 years old. This point is made because players are using the academy route where an age is assumed and it is getting them into European teams more than using the NPFL route and this could be attributed to European coaches perception of age and its value.

If age is a factor in longevity, and it largely is, the quality of the players is secondary and is largely diversionary. There's a minimum standard to be in a NT...

The 2nd issue is quite a surprise to me. Why would any professional coach depend on stated ages, rather than actual performance in determining whether to keep a player in a team?

[Enugu II]

If age is a factor in longevity, and it largely is, the quality of the players is secondary and is largely diversionary. There's a minimum standard to be in a NT...

The 2nd issue is quite a surprise to me. Why would any professional coach depend on stated ages, rather than actual performance in determining whether to keep a player in a team?

It shouldn't. It is a function of how we all do attributions. Let me give you an example. Lets compare a player (aged 28) who has five straight poor games compared to a player aged 23 who has the same stretch of poor games. The first could be interpreted as a sign of decline (because of his age) while the second can be attributed to inconsistency. That is the point about age effect. For instance, right now a Nigerian player who declares he is 17 or 18 and coming from a Nigerian academy will have a better shot of remaining with an Euro team because of age. Compare that with a player aged 23 joining an Euro team. He cannot get the chance of playing in a youth team, he must try out. Now these two players may actually be the same age (real age). This is one of the major reasons several Nigerian players declare a younger age because of its economic effects -- making it in Europe and not masking it.

[wale1974]

The really sad thing is that many of us will privately acknowledge and deep down know that we are cheating. But will keep quiet here and hide behind the moniker of 'evidence '.

Well said.............Yet we wonder why Naija is such a mess.

Even ex youth players have acknowledged that they faked their age just to play youth tournaments.

[txj]

If age is a factor in longevity, and it largely is, the quality of the players is secondary and is largely diversionary. There's a minimum standard to be in a NT...

The 2nd issue is quite a surprise to me. Why would any professional coach depend on stated ages, rather than actual performance in determining whether to keep a player in a team?

It shouldn't. It is a function of how we all do attributions. Let me give you an example. Lets compare a player (aged 28) who has five straight poor games compared to a player aged 23 who has the same stretch of poor games. The first could be interpreted as a sign of decline (because of his age) while the second can be attributed to inconsistency. That is the point about age effect. For instance, right now a Nigerian player who declares he is 17 or 18 and coming from a Nigerian academy will have a better shot of remaining with an Euro team because of age. Compare that with a player aged 23 joining an Euro team. He cannot get the chance of playing in a youth team, he must try out. Now these two players may actually be the same age (real age). This is one of the major reasons several Nigerian players declare a younger age because of its economic effects -- making it in Europe and not masking it.

Not really. At most professional clubs., performance analysis is not that elementary.

I understand the rationale behind age falsification at youth levels. That's in part what geis you in the team. But performance keeps you in it and many Nigerian players suffer at this level from a lack of formal education.

[Enugu II]

If age is a factor in longevity, and it largely is, the quality of the players is secondary and is largely diversionary. There's a minimum standard to be in a NT...

The 2nd issue is quite a surprise to me. Why would any professional coach depend on stated ages, rather than actual performance in determining whether to keep a player in a team?

It shouldn't. It is a function of how we all do attributions. Let me give you an example. Lets compare a player (aged 28) who has five straight poor games compared to a player aged 23 who has the same stretch of poor games. The first could be interpreted as a sign of decline (because of his age) while the second can be attributed to inconsistency. That is the point about age effect. For instance, right now a Nigerian player who declares he is 17 or 18 and coming from a Nigerian academy will have a better shot of remaining with an Euro team because of age. Compare that with a player aged 23 joining an Euro team. He cannot get the chance of playing in a youth team, he must try out. Now these two players may actually be the same age (real age). This is one of the major reasons several Nigerian players declare a younger age because of its economic effects -- making it in Europe and not masking it.

Not really. At most professional clubs., performance analysis is not that elementary.

I understand the rationale behind age falsification at youth levels. That's in part what geis you in the team. But performance keeps you in it and many Nigerian players suffer at this level from a lack of formal education.

Txj,

But it isn't elementary. Far from it. It is a key needed for interpretation. Data provides you figures but there is STILL human interpretation of data. That is why sometimes interpretations differ. Machines rarely do that. The age is a data point that helps the interpreter in his/her analysis.

[txj]

If age is a factor in longevity, and it largely is, the quality of the players is secondary and is largely diversionary. There's a minimum standard to be in a NT...

The 2nd issue is quite a surprise to me. Why would any professional coach depend on stated ages, rather than actual performance in determining whether to keep a player in a team?

It shouldn't. It is a function of how we all do attributions. Let me give you an example. Lets compare a player (aged 28) who has five straight poor games compared to a player aged 23 who has the same stretch of poor games. The first could be interpreted as a sign of decline (because of his age) while the second can be attributed to inconsistency. That is the point about age effect. For instance, right now a Nigerian player who declares he is 17 or 18 and coming from a Nigerian academy will have a better shot of remaining with an Euro team because of age. Compare that with a player aged 23 joining an Euro team. He cannot get the chance of playing in a youth team, he must try out. Now these two players may actually be the same age (real age). This is one of the major reasons several Nigerian players declare a younger age because of its economic effects -- making it in Europe and not masking it.

Not really. At most professional clubs., performance analysis is not that elementary.

I understand the rationale behind age falsification at youth levels. That's in part what geis you in the team. But performance keeps you in it and many Nigerian players suffer at this level from a lack of formal education.

Txj,

But it isn't elementary. Far from it. It is a key needed for interpretation. Data provides you figures but there is STILL human interpretation of data. That is why sometimes interpretations differ. Machines rarely do that. The age is a data point that helps the interpreter in his/her analysis.

Age is a data point but the analysis is not that elementary.

[oscar52]

I have to say the game must have been weird for the Naija players. When I played summer tournaments as a kid, I remembers one particular game where I was clearly one of the oldest on the field. It was an U14 tourney but our opponent brought a bunch of 11 year olds. They were very good but I found it uncomfortable playing against them and would let them get away with little nuances so that the crowd will not insult us. In the end we won but I asked to be substituted at half time because the game just did not feel comfortable or fun. It like playing against your junior ones.

[Waffiman]

If age is a factor in longevity, and it largely is, the quality of the players is secondary and is largely diversionary. There's a minimum standard to be in a NT...

The 2nd issue is quite a surprise to me. Why would any professional coach depend on stated ages, rather than actual performance in determining whether to keep a player in a team?

It shouldn't. It is a function of how we all do attributions. Let me give you an example. Lets compare a player (aged 28) who has five straight poor games compared to a player aged 23 who has the same stretch of poor games. The first could be interpreted as a sign of decline (because of his age) while the second can be attributed to inconsistency. That is the point about age effect. For instance, right now a Nigerian player who declares he is 17 or 18 and coming from a Nigerian academy will have a better shot of remaining with an Euro team because of age. Compare that with a player aged 23 joining an Euro team. He cannot get the chance of playing in a youth team, he must try out. Now these two players may actually be the same age (real age). This is one of the major reasons several Nigerian players declare a younger age because of its economic effects -- making it in Europe and not masking it.

Not really. At most professional clubs., performance analysis is not that elementary.

I understand the rationale behind age falsification at youth levels. That's in part what geis you in the team. But performance keeps you in it and many Nigerian players suffer at this level from a lack of formal education.

Txj,

But it isn't elementary. Far from it. It is a key needed for interpretation. Data provides you figures but there is STILL human interpretation of data. That is why sometimes interpretations differ. Machines rarely do that. The age is a data point that helps the interpreter in his/her analysis.

It is why all the top clubs now have specialised boffins to help interpret and use data in highlighting and taking advantage of weaknesses in opponents.

Whilst there is the human interpretation of data, there is the human implementation of how the data has been interpreted. In effect, there is no substitute for top quality players.