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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:29 am 
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Nigeria continues to play a system for which they do not have players namely the 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1. Perhaps what Nigeria needs is to drop the whole fantasy of defensive strength and just go for it with a 3-5-2 formation.

4-3-3
====
In a 4-3-3 system the single DM in the midfield is supported on either side by box-to-box central midfielders. In Nigeria's case it plays Etebo-Mikel-Ndidi which is 2 DMs and 1 CM in a disjointed midfield none of whom is able to support the 3 strikers in front with fast enough attacking or speed. Instead they play deep and rely on passes to the 3 strikers up front.

This means that to make the formation work, the two wide strikers in the 4-3-3 formation tend to have to drop back to get the ball and make deeper runs which leaves the central striker isolated. If you notice Musa and his partner on the right (Chukwueze or Kalu or Simon) watch where they often receive the ball.


4-2-3-1
=====

As a result of the poor midfield-attack transition Rohr has experimented with 2 central backs supporting a 3 man attack with a lone striker. This worked ok against Guinea with Ndidi and Etebo playing just in front of the defence and Musa-Iwobi-Simon or Musa-Iwobi-Chukwueze supporting a lone striker.

However, again the formation failed to create many clear cut chances and the question is why?

Clearly, Musa and Simon are poor wide attackers who fail to link up with the lone striker. Musa cannot cross to save his life and Simon is not exactly lighting up the pitch with runs up the flanks.


3-5-2
====
Perhaps what Rohr needs to do is to drop the whole lone-attacking get-up, beef up the attacking midfield and play with 2 out-and-out strikers. Something like the following might work:

------ Omeruo -------- Ekong ------- Aina -------

-------------- Ndidi --------------- Etebo ---------------

---- Kalu -------- Iwobi ---------- Chukwueze ------

---------------- Ighalo ----------- Musa -----------------

The reason it would work is that you would be playing 5 men in attack rather than just 4 and the gamble would pay off because this is the nations cup not the world cup with most African teams not that deep in talent.


Last edited by kali on Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:53 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:43 am 
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The Musa/Ighalo partnership does not cut it anymore, those guys lack the guile and technical ability to take on compact defenses with smart runs on and off the ball. At this point, we should just retire them to be bench and play a more mobile, dynamic, and skill-packed attacking trio of Onyekuru, Osimhen(I see a true #9 quality in this kid... If he needs any platform to shine its this AFCON), and Chukwueze. Play those players in our next game with Iwobi as the AM... and Ndidi and Etebo hassling the midfield of our opponents (note how our midfield got more balanced and fluid when Ndidi came in for old men Mikel and Ogu). For the rest of the tournament depending on how far we go, if we ever stand any chance of going far, then we have to never make the mistake of playing Balogun in defense... Ogu AND Mikel in midfield, and Ighalo as a lone striker... otherwise we might as well just go home.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:50 am 
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:38 am 
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kali wrote:

3-5-2
====
Perhaps what Rohr needs to do is to drop the whole lone-attacking get-up, beef up the attacking midfield and play with 2 out-and-out strikers. Something like the following might work:

------ Omeruo -------- Ekong ------- Aina -------

-------------- Ndidi --------------- Etebo ---------------

---- Kalu -------- Iwobi ---------- Chukwueze ------

---------------- Ighalo ----------- Musa -----------------

The reason it would work is that you would be playing 5 men in attack rather than just 4 and the gamble would pay off because this is the nations cup not the world cup with most African teams not that deep in talent.


We would get eaten alive. We don't have the wing backs to effectively play on both sides of the ball. Moses Simon shows flashes of being a capable WB, Chukwueze is pretty untested in that role. You would be trying out Aina as a center back for the first time in the knockout stage of a tourney which is quite dangerous.

Most teams play with one forward, (ghana def does) so you have 3 center backs occupying one forward, you rarely get any dominance in the middle and the top 2 get tied up by 4 defenders. Perhaps if we had time to practice the formation, it could work, but introducing it this late mid tourney is asking for trouble

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:35 am 
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kali wrote:
Nigeria continues to play a system for which they do not have players namely the 4-3-3 and 4-2-3-1. Perhaps what Nigeria needs is to drop the whole fantasy of defensive strength and just go for it with a 3-5-2 formation.

4-3-3
====
In a 4-3-3 system the single DM in the midfield is supported on either side by box-to-box central midfielders. In Nigeria's case it plays Etebo-Mikel-Ndidi which is 2 DMs and 1 CM in a disjointed midfield none of whom is able to support the 3 strikers in front with fast enough attacking or speed. Instead they play deep and rely on passes to the 3 strikers up front.

This means that to make the formation work, the two wide strikers in the 4-3-3 formation tend to have to drop back to get the ball and make deeper runs which leaves the central striker isolated. If you notice Musa and his partner on the right (Chukwueze or Kalu or Simon) watch where they often receive the ball.


4-2-3-1
=====

As a result of the poor midfield-attack transition Rohr has experimented with 2 central backs supporting a 3 man attack with a lone striker. This worked ok against Guinea with Ndidi and Etebo playing just in front of the defence and Musa-Iwobi-Simon or Musa-Iwobi-Chukwueze supporting a lone striker.

However, again the formation failed to create many clear cut chances and the question is why?

Clearly, Musa and Simon are poor wide attackers who fail to link up with the lone striker. Musa cannot cross to save his life and Simon is not exactly lighting up the pitch with runs up the flanks.


3-5-2
====
Perhaps what Rohr needs to do is to drop the whole lone-attacking get-up, beef up the attacking midfield and play with 2 out-and-out strikers. Something like the following might work:

------ Omeruo -------- Ekong ------- Aina -------

-------------- Ndidi --------------- Etebo ---------------

---- Kalu -------- Iwobi ---------- Chukwueze ------

---------------- Ighalo ----------- Musa -----------------

The reason it would work is that you would be playing 5 men in attack rather than just 4 and the gamble would pay off because this is the nations cup not the world cup with most African teams not that deep in talent.



My brother, I’ve got to say. This isn’t bad at all. Wish there were a way to get this tin rohr

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:11 am 
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metalalloy wrote:
kali wrote:

3-5-2
====
Perhaps what Rohr needs to do is to drop the whole lone-attacking get-up, beef up the attacking midfield and play with 2 out-and-out strikers. Something like the following might work:

------ Omeruo -------- Ekong ------- Aina -------

-------------- Ndidi --------------- Etebo ---------------

---- Kalu -------- Iwobi ---------- Chukwueze ------

---------------- Ighalo ----------- Musa -----------------

The reason it would work is that you would be playing 5 men in attack rather than just 4 and the gamble would pay off because this is the nations cup not the world cup with most African teams not that deep in talent.


We would get eaten alive. We don't have the wing backs to effectively play on both sides of the ball. Moses Simon shows flashes of being a capable WB, Chukwueze is pretty untested in that role. You would be trying out Aina as a center back for the first time in the knockout stage of a tourney which is quite dangerous.

Most teams play with one forward, (ghana def does) so you have 3 center backs occupying one forward, you rarely get any dominance in the middle and the top 2 get tied up by 4 defenders. Perhaps if we had time to practice the formation, it could work, but introducing it this late mid tourney is asking for trouble


We would not get eaten alive. You maintain a high press and with 3 center backs and 2 central midfielders you have enough men to defend. You will sacrifice players getting behind your wingers from time to time but you will be able to remain compact in the middle. More importantly, your midfield - attacking transition would be faster. Again this is not the World Cup. This is African Nations Cup and most teams are not exactly that talented.

The point is to get on the scoring boards as quickly as possible. If this does not work then you revert to a 4-4-2 t by subbing someone like Awaziem for Kalu and pushing Iwobi to the support striker and Musa to the left (Musa tracks back better than Iwobi):

------ Awaziem ------ Omeruo -------- Ekong ------- Aina -------

--- Chukwueze ------ Ndidi -------- Etebo ------- Musa -----------

---------------------Ighalo ----------- Iwobi -----------------


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:20 am 
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Difficult to fix with the personnel we have here. We need to find new players for the next tournament.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 11:25 am 
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Our scoring problem is a headscratcher.

The biggest poser of the Gernot Rohr era is the lone man upfront who is often completely and annoyingly isolated. This is alien to our football. The SE has often featured a strong duo upfront albeit with one ahead of the other. In Rohr's era, however, Odion Ighalo has been the lone man upfront with the AM sitting and crowded out in the midfield alongside the other central midfielders and in most cases so much in the thick of the action and far apart from the arrowhead striker.

Rasheed Yekini had Daniel Amokachi or Samson Siasia or Victor Ikpeba not far off. Aghahowa or Ikpeba or Yabuku Ayegbeni had Kanu hovering around closely.

Rohr's default is 4-2-3-1 which is traditional european ushering in the 5-man midfield which replaced the straightforward stoic 4-4-2. The 4-2-3-1 is a safe method of stifling the opposition by flooding the midfield and nullifying the opposition from scoring. If you win, you are likely only going to win 1-0 and it makes players lazy since they tend to defend in numbers.

Those advocating 3-5-2 should pls tell us at what point we used 3-5-2 in the past. Historically, the SE defence only been about a central pair of defenders with full backs on either side. Although I was impressed with our solid outing in the first 2 matches, the SE still lacks a cutting edge and we are very slow and univentive. Most of our previous coaches will play Samuel Chukwueze because he can open things up. Likewise, Ighalo's lack of physicality would have got him replaced by a sharp physical and off the ball runner like Osimhen.

If we dont win this AFCON, then it will be because we have seen all of Gernot Rohr's best which may just not be not good enough. Things can still change, though.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:29 pm 
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Goldleaf wrote:
Our scoring problem is a headscratcher.

The biggest poser of the Gernot Rohr era is the lone man upfront who is often completely and annoyingly isolated. This is alien to our football. The SE has often featured a strong duo upfront albeit with one ahead of the other. In Rohr's era, however, Odion Ighalo has been the lone man upfront with the AM sitting and crowded out in the midfield alongside the other central midfielders and in most cases so much in the thick of the action and far apart from the arrowhead striker.

Rasheed Yekini had Daniel Amokachi or Samson Siasia or Victor Ikpeba not far off. Aghahowa or Ikpeba or Yabuku Ayegbeni had Kanu hovering around closely.

Rohr's default is 4-2-3-1 which is traditional european ushering in the 5-man midfield which replaced the straightforward stoic 4-4-2. The 4-2-3-1 is a safe method of stifling the opposition by flooding the midfield and nullifying the opposition from scoring. If you win, you are likely only going to win 1-0 and it makes players lazy since they tend to defend in numbers.

Those advocating 3-5-2 should pls tell us at what point we used 3-5-2 in the past. Historically, the SE defence only been about a central pair of defenders with full backs on either side. Although I was impressed with our solid outing in the first 2 matches, the SE still lacks a cutting edge and we are very slow and univentive. Most of our previous coaches will play Samuel Chukwueze because he can open things up. Likewise, Ighalo's lack of physicality would have got him replaced by a sharp physical and off the ball runner like Osimhen.

If we dont win this AFCON, then it will be because we have seen all of Gernot Rohr's best which may just not be not good enough. Things can still change, though.


Brazil used the 3-5-2 most famously in 2002 with Roberto Carlos and Cafu. It was not their regular formation. So teams adapt.

Nigeria cannot play 4-4-2 because the midfield would be overrun with a CM and DM. 3-5-2 is the best formation for now.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:33 pm 
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Create competition
Read the riot act
Stop playing Mikel as an AM.
Use the strenghts of your players.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:28 pm 
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4-5-1

Akpeyi
Aina, Ekong, Omeruo, Collins
Chukwuze, Ndidi, Iwobi, Etebo, Onyekuru
Osimhen or Ighalo

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:57 pm 
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ohenhen1 wrote:
Create competition
Read the riot act
Stop playing Mikel as an AM.
Use the strenghts of your players.


True but unfortunately Iwobi is not it. So who do you play there?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:07 pm 
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Lolly wrote:
ohenhen1 wrote:
Create competition
Read the riot act
Stop playing Mikel as an AM.
Use the strenghts of your players.


True but unfortunately Iwobi is not it. So who do you play there?


:rotf: Mikel is hurt, Iwobi will play there, abeg lets leave talk...

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:25 pm 
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I think the issue may be more to do with the quality of the players in terms of consistency provided. Generally, the right decisions, attacking movements etc were being made but the execution were below par. The reason why Nigeria beat Iceland last year was because of the quality exhibited at crucial moments. Same with our 4-0 win against Cameroon, or even the recent Burundi win, where if Burundi had scored that big chance early on in the game I wouldn't have been surprised if things ended up similar to the Madagascar result. Aina & Ighalo thankfully executed a quality piece of play that led to the goal. The problem is that we are not providing enough of these moments!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:51 pm 
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Zelex wrote:
I think the issue may be more to do with the quality of the players in terms of consistency provided. Generally, the right decisions, attacking movements etc were being made but the execution were below par. The reason why Nigeria beat Iceland last year was because of the quality exhibited at crucial moments. Same with our 4-0 win against Cameroon, or even the recent Burundi win, where if Burundi had scored that big chance early on in the game I wouldn't have been surprised if things ended up similar to the Madagascar result. Aina & Ighalo thankfully executed a quality piece of play that led to the goal. The problem is that we are not providing enough of these moments!
KPOM!
I think it is time to give Osimhien his chance, 'attitude' or not.
He is scoring goals, identifying and running into dangerous spaces and is generally on an upward spiral.
Ighalo has had more than enough time to cement his spot which he has failed to do.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:53 pm 
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Rohr has not fixed it for three years and we expect a sudden turn around. Ok!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:24 pm 
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I have wondered why we stopped using the 3-5-2 formation which we played against Argentina and England to a massive success. Personally, I think we should have kept using the format only to switch whenever we feel like it. All these: 433, 4(this and that) and et al., is crap to me. Our games are not fluid and are very SLOW

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:39 pm 
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Damunk wrote:
Zelex wrote:
I think the issue may be more to do with the quality of the players in terms of consistency provided. Generally, the right decisions, attacking movements etc were being made but the execution were below par. The reason why Nigeria beat Iceland last year was because of the quality exhibited at crucial moments. Same with our 4-0 win against Cameroon, or even the recent Burundi win, where if Burundi had scored that big chance early on in the game I wouldn't have been surprised if things ended up similar to the Madagascar result. Aina & Ighalo thankfully executed a quality piece of play that led to the goal. The problem is that we are not providing enough of these moments!
KPOM!
I think it is time to give Osimhien his chance, 'attitude' or not.
He is scoring goals, identifying and running into dangerous spaces and is generally on an upward spiral.
Ighalo has had more than enough time to cement his spot which he has failed to do.


Ighalo is a funny one as according to stats he has been on good form (internationally). I see what he brings to the table, work ethic, decent runs however he is probably the biggest culprit when it comes to consistency. Could Osimhen be the answer? who knows. We need someone to really step up.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:40 pm 
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Damunk wrote:
Zelex wrote:
I think the issue may be more to do with the quality of the players in terms of consistency provided. Generally, the right decisions, attacking movements etc were being made but the execution were below par. The reason why Nigeria beat Iceland last year was because of the quality exhibited at crucial moments. Same with our 4-0 win against Cameroon, or even the recent Burundi win, where if Burundi had scored that big chance early on in the game I wouldn't have been surprised if things ended up similar to the Madagascar result. Aina & Ighalo thankfully executed a quality piece of play that led to the goal. The problem is that we are not providing enough of these moments!
KPOM!
I think it is time to give Osimhien his chance, 'attitude' or not.
He is scoring goals, identifying and running into dangerous spaces and is generally on an upward spiral.
Ighalo has had more than enough time to cement his spot which he has failed to do.


You know, quality issues are many times fixed by a change in formation/approach. I for one doubt that Osimhen can do any better than Ighalo if he is isolated up front just like Ighalo and Onuachu have been. There is a strong philosophy of coaching that you adapt your tactics to the players you have…and I’m not seeing much of this from Rohr yet.

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Last edited by deanotito on Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 5:52 pm 
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fabio wrote:
Rohr has not fixed it for three years and we expect a sudden turn around. Ok!
We don hear nah.
Rather than be stuck on autocritic mode, why not give some constructive suggestions like the rest are doing?
Your political commentary is always on point.
With football, you seem totally and unhealthily obsessed with the downfall of Pinnick and Rohr.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 7:08 pm 
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kali wrote:
Goldleaf wrote:
Our scoring problem is a headscratcher.

The biggest poser of the Gernot Rohr era is the lone man upfront who is often completely and annoyingly isolated. This is alien to our football. The SE has often featured a strong duo upfront albeit with one ahead of the other. In Rohr's era, however, Odion Ighalo has been the lone man upfront with the AM sitting and crowded out in the midfield alongside the other central midfielders and in most cases so much in the thick of the action and far apart from the arrowhead striker.

Rasheed Yekini had Daniel Amokachi or Samson Siasia or Victor Ikpeba not far off. Aghahowa or Ikpeba or Yabuku Ayegbeni had Kanu hovering around closely.

Rohr's default is 4-2-3-1 which is traditional european ushering in the 5-man midfield which replaced the straightforward stoic 4-4-2. The 4-2-3-1 is a safe method of stifling the opposition by flooding the midfield and nullifying the opposition from scoring. If you win, you are likely only going to win 1-0 and it makes players lazy since they tend to defend in numbers.

Those advocating 3-5-2 should pls tell us at what point we used 3-5-2 in the past. Historically, the SE defence only been about a central pair of defenders with full backs on either side. Although I was impressed with our solid outing in the first 2 matches, the SE still lacks a cutting edge and we are very slow and univentive. Most of our previous coaches will play Samuel Chukwueze because he can open things up. Likewise, Ighalo's lack of physicality would have got him replaced by a sharp physical and off the ball runner like Osimhen.

If we dont win this AFCON, then it will be because we have seen all of Gernot Rohr's best which may just not be not good enough. Things can still change, though.


Brazil used the 3-5-2 most famously in 2002 with Roberto Carlos and Cafu. It was not their regular formation. So teams adapt.

Nigeria cannot play 4-4-2 because the midfield would be overrun with a CM and DM. 3-5-2 is the best formation for now.


If we play 3-5-2,

1.) Who will be the wing backs?
2.) Will they be quick to recover their defending position if we are under attack?
3.) Will they be able to fly down the wings and deliver telling crosses?

While I can see Omeruo, Balogun and Ekong as the 3 in the back, I cannot quite see good quality wing backs in this SE.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:27 pm 
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Damunk wrote:
We don hear nah.
Rather than be stuck on autocritic mode, why not give some constructive suggestions like the rest are doing?
Your political commentary is always on point.
With football, you seem totally and unhealthily obsessed with the downfall of Pinnick and Rohr.


What were the targets set for Rohr at AFCON?

We know Rohr went to WC to learn.

My constructive suggestions are:

Rohr should spend more time in Nigeria watching the league, academies et al as opposed to coming to Nigeria, before a match and leaving after the match.

Rohr needs to stop his obsession with tall players... needs a tall GK, tall striker etc.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:33 pm 
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What we need is more X factor players like Chukwuze. Playmakers that can change the game. Bring back V Moses. Go find a creative midfielder. I watched Onyekuru play for Galatasary. His pace is devastating. There is a reason why he is been linked totop clubs.

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