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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 1:37 pm 
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There is a lot of emotion about Rohr and Keshi (RIP) and Oliseh, Siasia and now even Eguavon is back in the debate. Whether for or against whoever is in charge, it is all driven by a desire to see the SE be the best they can be.
So all emotion aside, let's take a dispassionate look at our local coaching 'situation'.

This is about our pool of local coaching talent, our coaching 'depth chart' and whether we can or should be doing better.

For instance, we recognize that we have an abundance of raw local footballing talent, so where exactly is it going wrong if our local clubs are not even thriving at least on the continent?

What defies logic in all of this is the fact that coaching is a cerebral job and yet we have very few top-level coaches that can compete on the world stage or even the continental stage.
There is no field of human endeavor that you do not find Nigerians operating at the top level, whether in Nigeria or anywhere abroad, be it the sciences or the arts.

So what baffles me is why Nigeria is not routinely throwing up world-class Nigerian coaches, whether ex-players or simply 'students' of the game.

Is it that coaching is not attracting the right calibre of individuals?

Having said that, it is not as if the Harry Redknapps and Sam Allardyces or even the Mourinhos and Guardiolas of this world have doctorates in coaching.

I'd particularly like to hear Oloye's views on this and why for someone like him, it was never an option.

We may yab them a lot here on CE, but there are dozens of football analysts here on CE so it is not as if the ability is not out there.

Where are we going wrong?

WARNING: Bigpokey - you are banned from contaminating this thread. :taunt:

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:02 pm 
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Father Tiko, Westerhof and Rohr were all given the tools to succeed. Au contraire, our local coaches were sabotaged, ridiculed and undermined. Until we change our mentality of treating anything foreign better, we'll be here in again in 20 years with 10 pointers of how Guus Hindikk, Guardiola or Jurgen Klopp could have taken us to the semi's of the World cup.
Let's encourage and take care of our own and someone will eventually take us to the promise land.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:07 pm 
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Ekorian wrote:
Father Tiko, Westerhof and Rohr were all given the tools to succeed. Au contraire, our local coaches were sabotaged, ridiculed and undermined. Until we changed our mentality of treating anything foreign better, we'll be here in again in 20 years with 10 pointers of how Guus Hindikk, Guardiola or Jurgen Klopp could have taken us to the semi's of the World cup.
Let's encourage and take care of our own and someone will eventually take us to the promise land.
Ekorian, I may not have made it clear but I am not restricting my concern to national (SE) team coaching.
I'm actually concerned about our local coaches coming thru from club level.
In any meritocratic system, you excel at the local level to get noticed and be given a chance at a higher level.
So what is happening at the local level?

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 3:13 pm 
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As of now August 2019 ROhR is still owed salaries in arrears. My friend, just because his matured enough to keep it moving and be working does not mean that he isn’t owed. The likes of oliseh and siasia got the same amount of support from Pinnick like rohr


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 5:37 pm 
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A lot boils down to the infrastructure and enabling environment. Coaching is an evolving profession. Techniques, tactics and technology is not static. To grow, you need to constantly pit yourself against the best and consistently outsmart them. Punditry and coaching are worlds apart. Football is a science in as much as it is an art.

We have a semi professional league and the best players at the junior level transition straight out of the country. So you don’t have the best materials, playing or working conditions. You can’t breed excellence in this kind of environment.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 7:13 pm 
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The biggest issue is that we haven’t created an enabling environment for football as a whole to grow. What is worse is that we’re actually in denial about the real issues.

When we’re not talking about FC/LC, we’re cheating our way through youth tournaments and using it as a false barometer for measuring both our players and our football.

What to do?

The main thing is to rebuild our domestic league so it becomes a genuine platform for both our players and coaches to grow.

This requires the level of planning, discipline and dedication that we’re incapable of mustering.

There’s no hope for Nigeria. On every level....

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We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 10, 2019 8:53 pm 
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txj wrote:
The biggest issue is that we haven’t created an enabling environment for football as a whole to grow. What is worse is that we’re actually in denial about the real issues.

When we’re not talking about FC/LC, we’re cheating our way through youth tournaments and using it as a false barometer for measuring both our players and our football.

What to do?

The main thing is to rebuild our domestic league so it becomes a genuine platform for both our players and coaches to grow.

This requires the level of planning, discipline and dedication that we’re incapable of mustering.

There’s no hope for Nigeria. On every level....

If you truly believe in the highlighted, why bother with anything about the country?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 7:52 am 
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txj wrote:
The biggest issue is that we haven’t created an enabling environment for football as a whole to grow. What is worse is that we’re actually in denial about the real issues.

When we’re not talking about FC/LC, we’re cheating our way through youth tournaments and using it as a false barometer for measuring both our players and our football.

What to do?

The main thing is to rebuild our domestic league so it becomes a genuine platform for both our players and coaches to grow.

This requires the level of planning, discipline and dedication that we’re incapable of mustering.

There’s no hope for Nigeria. On every level....
Everything you say may well be true but it still does not explain why we are not producing the 'rogue' coaching genius.
Using a famous 2Pac analogy, why do we not have the occasional rose that grows from concrete?

For instance, our education system is a joke and has not been anything close to fit for purpose for decades. But that has not stopped thousands of young geniuses popping up all over the country at primary, secondary and university level. The same with young sportsmen that come out of the same faulty system.

Lets not even go into the thousands of Nigerians born or living abroad that continue to excel in the educational systems, the sports clubs, the drama schools and the workplace despite the challenges of race and everything it brings with it.

Is there something unique about coaching?

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:16 pm 
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Damunk wrote:
txj wrote:
The biggest issue is that we haven’t created an enabling environment for football as a whole to grow. What is worse is that we’re actually in denial about the real issues.

When we’re not talking about FC/LC, we’re cheating our way through youth tournaments and using it as a false barometer for measuring both our players and our football.

What to do?

The main thing is to rebuild our domestic league so it becomes a genuine platform for both our players and coaches to grow.

This requires the level of planning, discipline and dedication that we’re incapable of mustering.

There’s no hope for Nigeria. On every level....
Everything you say may well be true but it still does not explain why we are not producing the 'rogue' coaching genius.
Using a famous 2Pac analogy, why do we not have the occasional rose that grows from concrete?

For instance, our education system is a joke and has not been anything close to fit for purpose for decades. But that has not stopped thousands of young geniuses popping up all over the country at primary, secondary and university level. The same with young sportsmen that come out of the same faulty system.

Lets not even go into the thousands of Nigerians born or living abroad that continue to excel in the educational systems, the sports clubs, the drama schools and the workplace despite the challenges of race and everything it brings with it.

Is there something unique about coaching?


One could argue that we have indeed produced some coaches with very high potentials, Keshi being perhaps the best example. However the dysfunction in the system pulls them down as we saw very graphically with Oliseh.

The analogy with the education system is misplaced as a lot of that is individual based. Besides you need to also consider the performance of those brilliant students when they transition to the general economy.

Coaching is very process oriented. Without the right environment it’s quite unrealistic to expect any potentially brilliant coaches to thrive. Yes there will be occasional good performances, re Keshi, but it will never last...

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We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 11:30 am 
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The same way you put structures in place to unearth and nurture any sort of talent is what should be done for Nigerian football coaching and administration.

I think football organisation in Nigeria can borrow from the self organising and drive for excellence we now find happening in Nollywood.

It may even have to be a club or 2 leading the way to set the agenda with some visionary leadership to set up centres of excellence that eventually transform the environment.

Waiting for NFF to do the needful is a futile exercise.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:24 pm 
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cchinukw wrote:
The same way you put structures in place to unearth and nurture any sort of talent is what should be done for Nigerian football coaching and administration.

I think football organisation in Nigeria can borrow from the self organising and drive for excellence we now find happening in Nollywood.

It may even have to be a club or 2 leading the way to set the agenda with some visionary leadership to set up centres of excellence that eventually transform the environment.

Waiting for NFF to do the needful is a futile exercise.
I agree with this and it may be the only way in the absence of a well structured and focussed national football body.
But they say cream always rises to the top, even in the gutter and I am seriously wondering why we haven't seen exceptionally gifted coaches sporadically arising from our so-called 'jungle".

Your reference to Nollywood is perfect. Music same thing. There is no structured industry on ground but it is still attracting some extremely talented people. The secret is the potential monetary rewards that can be acquired if you plan right.

But is coaching still stuck in the 80s when Nigerians only thought law, medicine, engineering and accountancy were worth pursuing until football, music and the arts proved them all wrong?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 3:45 pm 
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Damunk wrote:
cchinukw wrote:
The same way you put structures in place to unearth and nurture any sort of talent is what should be done for Nigerian football coaching and administration.

I think football organisation in Nigeria can borrow from the self organising and drive for excellence we now find happening in Nollywood.

It may even have to be a club or 2 leading the way to set the agenda with some visionary leadership to set up centres of excellence that eventually transform the environment.

Waiting for NFF to do the needful is a futile exercise.
I agree with this and it may be the only way in the absence of a well structured and focussed national football body.
But they say cream always rises to the top, even in the gutter and I am seriously wondering why we haven't seen exceptionally gifted coaches sporadically arising from our so-called 'jungle".

Your reference to Nollywood is perfect. Music same thing. There is no structured industry on ground but it is still attracting some extremely talented people. The secret is the potential monetary rewards that can be acquired if you plan right.

But is coaching still stuck in the 80s when Nigerians only thought law, medicine, engineering and accountancy were worth pursuing until football, music and the arts proved them all wrong?



Which two clubs?

All the clubs are as dysfunctional as the next!

You keep citing examples that are not appropriate.

However talented a coach may be individually, his skills will have to interact with multiple factors that are outside his control- human factors like players- their welfare, motivation, health and nutrition; quality of pitch, refereeing, etc...

Even the corresponding quality of opposition which would create the competition that helps hone his skills...

So however good he is individually, if the environment is not conducive, he will eventually be dragged down...

It could be argued that cream already rose to the top wrt Keshi and possibly Amodu; but what followed next?

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Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:09 pm 
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txj wrote:
Damunk wrote:
cchinukw wrote:
The same way you put structures in place to unearth and nurture any sort of talent is what should be done for Nigerian football coaching and administration.

I think football organisation in Nigeria can borrow from the self organising and drive for excellence we now find happening in Nollywood.

It may even have to be a club or 2 leading the way to set the agenda with some visionary leadership to set up centres of excellence that eventually transform the environment.

Waiting for NFF to do the needful is a futile exercise.
I agree with this and it may be the only way in the absence of a well structured and focussed national football body.
But they say cream always rises to the top, even in the gutter and I am seriously wondering why we haven't seen exceptionally gifted coaches sporadically arising from our so-called 'jungle".

Your reference to Nollywood is perfect. Music same thing. There is no structured industry on ground but it is still attracting some extremely talented people. The secret is the potential monetary rewards that can be acquired if you plan right.

But is coaching still stuck in the 80s when Nigerians only thought law, medicine, engineering and accountancy were worth pursuing until football, music and the arts proved them all wrong?



Which two clubs?

All the clubs are as dysfunctional as the next!

You keep citing examples that are not appropriate.

However talented a coach may be individually, his skills will have to interact with multiple factors that are outside his control- human factors like players- their welfare, motivation, health and nutrition; quality of pitch, refereeing, etc...
Even the corresponding quality of opposition which would create the competition that helps hone his skills...

So however good he is individually, if the environment is not conducive, he will eventually be dragged down...

It could be argued that cream already rose to the top wrt Keshi and possibly Amodu; but what followed next?
But don't these same factors apply to players as well?

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:24 pm 
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Damunk wrote:
There is a lot of emotion about Rohr and Keshi (RIP) and Oliseh, Siasia and now even Eguavon is back in the debate. Whether for or against whoever is in charge, it is all driven by a desire to see the SE be the best they can be.
So all emotion aside, let's take a dispassionate look at our local coaching 'situation'.

This is about our pool of local coaching talent, our coaching 'depth chart' and whether we can or should be doing better.

For instance, we recognize that we have an abundance of raw local footballing talent, so where exactly is it going wrong if our local clubs are not even thriving at least on the continent?

What defies logic in all of this is the fact that coaching is a cerebral job and yet we have very few top-level coaches that can compete on the world stage or even the continental stage.
There is no field of human endeavor that you do not find Nigerians operating at the top level, whether in Nigeria or anywhere abroad, be it the sciences or the arts.

So what baffles me is why Nigeria is not routinely throwing up world-class Nigerian coaches, whether ex-players or simply 'students' of the game.

Is it that coaching is not attracting the right calibre of individuals?

Having said that, it is not as if the Harry Redknapps and Sam Allardyces or even the Mourinhos and Guardiolas of this world have doctorates in coaching.

I'd particularly like to hear Oloye's views on this and why for someone like him, it was never an option.

We may yab them a lot here on CE, but there are dozens of football analysts here on CE so it is not as if the ability is not out there.

Where are we going wrong?

WARNING: Bigpokey - you are banned from contaminating this thread. :taunt:

A good coach no matter how good cannot function without a good talent pool and enabling environment.

And talking of talent pool, you also begin to look at the class or category of the talent. There is a reason some talents are classed world class and some, well let us just say they help to mak le up the team.

I have always believed that a good coach cannot be celebrated in isolation, his job will be ruined by lack of good talent pool or bumbling support staff or management.

There is a reason why Guardiola nearly pooped a vessel when he accused his medical team of not being up to par in the handling of player welfare when he was at Bayern, just think of it, a coach of Guardiola's pedigree being pissed of because the medical advice of a team like Bayern is not up to par.

That is just a peek into the level of excellence that is demanded, in order to get world class results.

Sometimes an environment may throw up some good pool of talent together, under the guidance of a good coach and well a functional management, then voilsla you have that ideal team.

Now being able to deliberately create and sustain that combination as a style of management and a daily standard procedure is what sets the bar beyond our reach.

Now if I may add, part of what makes a good coach is his ability to spot such an environment that would allow him to showcase his ability. It is one of the reasons you won't see Guardiola or Jose go to coach Southampton or Wolves unless they can guarantee the kind of players that tickles his fancy or fits into his idea of what a talent is. Call him coach of finished product, yeah, but then you see the likes that Welsh coach spend money at City and got nothing back, but as soon as the likes of Mancini strolled into town and with a few acquisitions the team became a serial winner.

Bring a bad coach to City, they won't win Jack, yes with this same players.

Now we may also decide to look at a good coach from another angle, the impact on a team while working with not so perfect enabling environment. You would see the work of such a coach and you can tell what needs to be added.

The biggest problem with Nigeria howbeit our SE is management and the recurring state of instability.

On the local scene I won't even go there, there is a reason I walked away from coaching whereby if I had plied my trade in this part of the world, I can't imagine myself doing anything else.

The people claiming to run our football save for one or two, have no clue what they are doing. Local coaches are expected to be miracle workers, to be honest from my experience in the game, they were indeed miracle workers. How can you expect packing a bunch of players who are being owed everything into a bus to travel a journey of about 20 hrs and you are expected to play and still get a result? Let me not even add the other odds stacked against the coach...

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 4:57 pm 
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Damunk wrote:
txj wrote:
Damunk wrote:
cchinukw wrote:
The same way you put structures in place to unearth and nurture any sort of talent is what should be done for Nigerian football coaching and administration.

I think football organisation in Nigeria can borrow from the self organising and drive for excellence we now find happening in Nollywood.

It may even have to be a club or 2 leading the way to set the agenda with some visionary leadership to set up centres of excellence that eventually transform the environment.

Waiting for NFF to do the needful is a futile exercise.
I agree with this and it may be the only way in the absence of a well structured and focussed national football body.
But they say cream always rises to the top, even in the gutter and I am seriously wondering why we haven't seen exceptionally gifted coaches sporadically arising from our so-called 'jungle".

Your reference to Nollywood is perfect. Music same thing. There is no structured industry on ground but it is still attracting some extremely talented people. The secret is the potential monetary rewards that can be acquired if you plan right.

But is coaching still stuck in the 80s when Nigerians only thought law, medicine, engineering and accountancy were worth pursuing until football, music and the arts proved them all wrong?



Which two clubs?

All the clubs are as dysfunctional as the next!

You keep citing examples that are not appropriate.

However talented a coach may be individually, his skills will have to interact with multiple factors that are outside his control- human factors like players- their welfare, motivation, health and nutrition; quality of pitch, refereeing, etc...
Even the corresponding quality of opposition which would create the competition that helps hone his skills...

So however good he is individually, if the environment is not conducive, he will eventually be dragged down...

It could be argued that cream already rose to the top wrt Keshi and possibly Amodu; but what followed next?
But don't these same factors apply to players as well?



You make the assumption that other things are excelling except coaching, which is just wrong..

We cannot develop a GK. We are looking for players in the diaspora...many of our presumed top talents cannot break thru in Europe, although other factors do come in...

Contrast that with the US, where the MLS began just over two decades ago. Tyler Adams just moved from the MLS direct to the first team of a major European team, RB Leipzig.

The last time any Nigerian player did that was when George Finidi moved from Sharks to Ajax!

_________________
Image
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:02 pm 
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txj wrote:
Damunk wrote:
txj wrote:
Damunk wrote:
cchinukw wrote:
The same way you put structures in place to unearth and nurture any sort of talent is what should be done for Nigerian football coaching and administration.

I think football organisation in Nigeria can borrow from the self organising and drive for excellence we now find happening in Nollywood.

It may even have to be a club or 2 leading the way to set the agenda with some visionary leadership to set up centres of excellence that eventually transform the environment.

Waiting for NFF to do the needful is a futile exercise.
I agree with this and it may be the only way in the absence of a well structured and focussed national football body.
But they say cream always rises to the top, even in the gutter and I am seriously wondering why we haven't seen exceptionally gifted coaches sporadically arising from our so-called 'jungle".

Your reference to Nollywood is perfect. Music same thing. There is no structured industry on ground but it is still attracting some extremely talented people. The secret is the potential monetary rewards that can be acquired if you plan right.

But is coaching still stuck in the 80s when Nigerians only thought law, medicine, engineering and accountancy were worth pursuing until football, music and the arts proved them all wrong?



Which two clubs?

All the clubs are as dysfunctional as the next!

You keep citing examples that are not appropriate.

However talented a coach may be individually, his skills will have to interact with multiple factors that are outside his control- human factors like players- their welfare, motivation, health and nutrition; quality of pitch, refereeing, etc...
Even the corresponding quality of opposition which would create the competition that helps hone his skills...

So however good he is individually, if the environment is not conducive, he will eventually be dragged down...

It could be argued that cream already rose to the top wrt Keshi and possibly Amodu; but what followed next?
But don't these same factors apply to players as well?



You make the assumption that other things are excelling except coaching, which is just wrong..

We cannot develop a GK. We are looking for players in the diaspora...many of our presumed top talents cannot break thru in Europe, although other factors do come in...

Contrast that with the US, where the MLS began just over two decades ago. Tyler Adams just moved from the MLS direct to the first team of a major European team, RB Leipzig.

The last time any Nigerian player did that was when George Finidi moved from Sharks to Ajax!

Taiye Taiwo to Marseille from Lobi Stars.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:12 pm 
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txj wrote:
Damunk wrote:
cchinukw wrote:
The same way you put structures in place to unearth and nurture any sort of talent is what should be done for Nigerian football coaching and administration.

I think football organisation in Nigeria can borrow from the self organising and drive for excellence we now find happening in Nollywood.

It may even have to be a club or 2 leading the way to set the agenda with some visionary leadership to set up centres of excellence that eventually transform the environment.

Waiting for NFF to do the needful is a futile exercise.
I agree with this and it may be the only way in the absence of a well structured and focussed national football body.
But they say cream always rises to the top, even in the gutter and I am seriously wondering why we haven't seen exceptionally gifted coaches sporadically arising from our so-called 'jungle".

Your reference to Nollywood is perfect. Music same thing. There is no structured industry on ground but it is still attracting some extremely talented people. The secret is the potential monetary rewards that can be acquired if you plan right.

But is coaching still stuck in the 80s when Nigerians only thought law, medicine, engineering and accountancy were worth pursuing until football, music and the arts proved them all wrong?



Which two clubs?

All the clubs are as dysfunctional as the next!

You keep citing examples that are not appropriate.

However talented a coach may be individually, his skills will have to interact with multiple factors that are outside his control- human factors like players- their welfare, motivation, health and nutrition; quality of pitch, refereeing, etc...

Even the corresponding quality of opposition which would create the competition that helps hone his skills...

So however good he is individually, if the environment is not conducive, he will eventually be dragged down...

It could be argued that cream already rose to the top wrt Keshi and possibly Amodu; but what followed next?

Anything I have written is theoretical until anyone with vision and resources can spearhead that change in spite of the NFF administration.

The example that I cited if you understand what I was trying to say was just an analogy with an industry that was as undynamic as we have with Nigerian football today.

No one could have predicted the where Nollywood and Nigerian music would end up today 25 years ago.

All it takes is for one person to start that move. I don't see that happening intentionally within the NFF structure we have today.

So in a sense I agree with you.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:52 pm 
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I understand your point.

What I’ve tried to explain is that the sectors you cited are inappropriate to the context, as they depend a lot on individual factors which are within a person’s control unlike football coaching.

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Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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