The case for the "cockney eagles"

[Gotti]

Bros Cellular,

When I was a rookie in Ebun Comets, we had a continental game in Algeria. A few of us were on the fringes, so you can imagine our consternation when some mercenaries from US College bball turned up in training.

I was already on the fringes so I knew automatically nothing for me. A few others were in the same boat and were very angry, as these guys were not even registered to be on the team. It was pure mago mago.

However, when Tunji Awojobi (he was in Boston College) at that time started playing, I knew that I was playing only joke basketball. It wasn't really my fault, as I did not have the exposure he had, but deep down in me, I realized that I just wasn't good enough and to be even close to what Tunji was, I had to quadruple my effort. Tbh seeing these guys was one of the reasons that I knew top level bball might not be for me.

So really what I am trying to say is that the likes of Iwobi, V Moses, and real high quality Nigerian foreign-born talent can only add to the team. Trust me, the true intelligent and self-aware local players that have an opportunity to train with them can only be inspired.

Honestly, I'm not as pissed with Pinnick as you guys. This is what he feels he needs to do to be successful. I don't know about a quota for local players like you suggested. Quotas and sports do not work well together. If a local player is just the best of the rest, he needs to work harder to get to a level where he cannot be ignored.

The likes of Finidi George and Amokachi did it so it's not impossible.

BTW, Tunji at Boston University, not BC...
The same university where Emenalo (a defender in Naija) became all-time scoring leader.

Tunji was the FIRST basketball player in the entire history of college basketball in the entire New England area, which covers Massachusetts, Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Rhode Island and Connecticut, to score 2000 points and grab 1000 rebounds (and bear in mind that basketball was invented in New England by Dr. Naismith).

Tunji is only one of about four Division 1 college basketball players in the entire 80-year history of NCAA basketball in the US to have at least 2000 points, 1000 rebounds and 300 blocked shots (the others being basketball hall of famers David Robinson and Alonzo Mourning, plus Derrick Coleman). He was also a four-year MVP in college and won both conference POTY and tournament MVP in his senior year.

Going by your theory, every player that Tunji dominated in his US high school senior year and college career just “did not have the exposure” to proper basketball education, training, equipment and residual knowledge - even though virtually all of them grew up playing organized basketball in the US while Tunji was running around the streets of Lagos playing at Rowe Park Yaba and so on, with little formal coaching.

[Zelex]

I think it is important to stress that all these players regardless of where their footballing education took place are Nigerians. I couldn't care less if the SE starting line-up where filled with mostly foreign-born players-in fact I'm not really a fan of these terms. Algeria won the nations cup with only one player who was born in Algeria, I believe?

What I don't like is this idea (or it feels that way from what we read) that foreign is superior to anything local.

I don't know about anyone else but we are prepared to scout and invite a player who is playing 4th division football in Germany and have the patience for him to develop (which I don't really have a problem with) but this is seen as a major risk/gamble with regards to local players. I just think there needs to be a better balance. Things are heavily tilted towards the favour foreign-born players under the current administration.

[Damunk]

I think it is important to stress that all these players regardless of where their footballing education took place are Nigerians. I couldn't care less if the SE starting line-up where filled with mostly foreign-born players-in fact I'm not really a fan of these terms. Algeria won the nations cup with only one player who was born in Algeria, I believe?

What I don't like is this idea (or it feels that way from what we read) that foreign is superior to anything local.

I don't know about anyone else but we are prepared to scout and invite a player who is playing 4th division football in Germany and have the patience for him to develop (which I don't really have a problem with) but this is seen as a major risk/gamble with regards to local players. I just think there needs to be a better balance. Things are heavily tilted towards the favour foreign-born players under the current administration.

Its a sentimental argument and is in some way similar to the 'quota system' argument in Nigeria or 'affirmative action' in the US. These policies too are about trying to reach some kind of 'balance'....but see the destruction and injustice it is causing in Nigeria - esp in the education system.

Bottom line is, the sole criterion for SE call-ups should be merit.
If, for whatever reason, ALL the players are local born and bred, fantastic. If it turns out to be the reverse, great too. There should be no obligation to call up any player from anywhere simply to satisfy silly sentiments.
The argument for developing our local leagues is a separate issue entirely, but the two issues are and should not be mutually exclusive.

[Zelex]

I think it is important to stress that all these players regardless of where their footballing education took place are Nigerians. I couldn't care less if the SE starting line-up where filled with mostly foreign-born players-in fact I'm not really a fan of these terms. Algeria won the nations cup with only one player who was born in Algeria, I believe?

What I don't like is this idea (or it feels that way from what we read) that foreign is superior to anything local.

I don't know about anyone else but we are prepared to scout and invite a player who is playing 4th division football in Germany and have the patience for him to develop (which I don't really have a problem with) but this is seen as a major risk/gamble with regards to local players. I just think there needs to be a better balance. Things are heavily tilted towards the favour foreign-born players under the current administration.

Its a sentimental argument and is in some way similar to the 'quota system' argument in Nigeria or 'affirmative action' in the US. These policies too are about trying to reach some kind of 'balance'....but see the destruction and injustice it is causing in Nigeria - esp in the education system.

Bottom line is, the sole criterion for SE call-ups should be merit.
If, for whatever reason, ALL the players are local born and bred, fantastic. If it turns out to be the reverse, great too. There should be no obligation to call up any player from anywhere simply to satisfy silly sentiments.
The argument for developing our local leagues is a separate issue entirely, but the two issues are and should not be mutually exclusive.

I don't think what you are saying is wrong however I think you may have missed the mark on the crucial point that I was making which is that the "merit" criteria is subjective. What I want is fair opportunity. If you can faith in the development of a 4th division playing foreign-born player then surely you can apply the same to those in Nigeria.

My issue is there is an unconscious bias that favours anything foreign-born to local under the current administration. I look at players such as Etebo, Oboabona who played in the NPFL at the time of their senior-call up. It required their respective managers to have faith in the potential. Troost-Ekong was playing in the dutch 2nd division at the time of invitation, Aribo was being scouted (according to Agali) whilst he was playing in league one. Frankly on "merit" these players were no where near good enough for the SE, however the belief they can offer something squad with time/eventually was there. I maintain this same "belief" is not being applied to local players currently.

[airwolex]

I don't think what you are saying is wrong however I think you may have missed the mark on the crucial point that I was making which is that the "merit" criteria is subjective. What I want is fair opportunity. If you can faith in the development of a 4th division playing foreign-born player then surely you can apply the same to those in Nigeria.

My issue is there is an unconscious bias that favours anything foreign-born to local under the current administration. I look at players such as Etebo, Oboabona who played in the NPFL at the time of their senior-call up. It required their respective managers to have faith in the potential. Troost-Ekong was playing in the dutch 2nd division at the time of invitation, Aribo was being scouted (according to Agali) whilst he was playing in league one. Frankly on "merit" these players were no where near good enough for the SE, however the belief they can offer something squad with time/eventually was there. I maintain this same "belief" is not being applied to local players currently.

I hear you but Tobi asked a question....who are the local players that are being unfairly left off the team. Let's start with our problem position....goalkeeper.

[Zelex]

I don't think what you are saying is wrong however I think you may have missed the mark on the crucial point that I was making which is that the "merit" criteria is subjective. What I want is fair opportunity. If you can faith in the development of a 4th division playing foreign-born player then surely you can apply the same to those in Nigeria.

My issue is there is an unconscious bias that favours anything foreign-born to local under the current administration. I look at players such as Etebo, Oboabona who played in the NPFL at the time of their senior-call up. It required their respective managers to have faith in the potential. Troost-Ekong was playing in the dutch 2nd division at the time of invitation, Aribo was being scouted (according to Agali) whilst he was playing in league one. Frankly on "merit" these players were no where near good enough for the SE, however the belief they can offer something squad with time/eventually was there. I maintain this same "belief" is not being applied to local players currently.

I hear you but Tobi asked a question....who are the local players that are being unfairly left off the team. Let's start with our problem position....goalkeeper.

2 players spring to mind.

Theophilius Afelokhai GK at Enyimba who interestingly this month stated the same thing regarding his chances of playing for the SE.

“I just pray to God to give me a better club out of this country for me to move on my career because they believe more in the professionals outside there. Afelokhai told local radio station Brila FM during an interview.

Mfon Udoh, striker at Akwa United. I feel that considering how open the CF role is right now (Osimhen, Onuachu, Iheanacho). The NPFL top-scorer could have been an option.

Although he has just moved this season from Enyimba to Galatasaray, I feel Valentine Ozornwafor-CB could have been invited (he was called up in March for the friendly against Egypt) but seems to have fallen off the Rohr's radar.

I wouldn't say they were unfairly left off but if Aribo, Maja etc weren't invited for the Ukraine friendly. I also would say they weren't unfairly left off either.

[maceo4]

Can we look at the U23 for a case study? When the team has been filled with mostly home based players it’s mainly faltered only for the foreign based ones (that can’t even make the SE) to be called in to save the day. We can also look at the U-20 team that was mainly homebased and see how poor the so called HB stars of the team like Utin and Ozonwafor were. Maybe the ones still in Nigeria are not as talented as needed for the NT level and I don’t think we should be forcing Rohr to pick them using a quota system.

We should name specific player rather than being nebulous about who Rohr has ignored that deserves a spot. He’s called the Utins, Ozonwafors etc that showed promise but they are clearly not ready. The Femi Thomas we were told was better than Ezenwa we saw in the Ath Madrid friendly and he didn’t look good at all. Maybe the Sunusi kid might have something to offer and I’m sure if he keeps making waves he will get an opportunity.

[Enugu II]

I think it is important to stress that all these players regardless of where their footballing education took place are Nigerians. I couldn't care less if the SE starting line-up where filled with mostly foreign-born players-in fact I'm not really a fan of these terms. Algeria won the nations cup with only one player who was born in Algeria, I believe?

What I don't like is this idea (or it feels that way from what we read) that foreign is superior to anything local.

I don't know about anyone else but we are prepared to scout and invite a player who is playing 4th division football in Germany and have the patience for him to develop (which I don't really have a problem with) but this is seen as a major risk/gamble with regards to local players. I just think there needs to be a better balance. Things are heavily tilted towards the favour foreign-born players under the current administration.

KPOM. I can't state it better.

[Sleaky72]

Bros Cellular,

When I was a rookie in Ebun Comets, we had a continental game in Algeria. A few of us were on the fringes, so you can imagine our consternation when some mercenaries from US College bball turned up in training.

I was already on the fringes so I knew automatically nothing for me. A few others were in the same boat and were very angry, as these guys were not even registered to be on the team. It was pure mago mago.

However, when Tunji Awojobi (he was in Boston College) at that time started playing, I knew that I was playing only joke basketball. It wasn't really my fault, as I did not have the exposure he had, but deep down in me, I realized that I just wasn't good enough and to be even close to what Tunji was, I had to quadruple my effort. Tbh seeing these guys was one of the reasons that I knew top level bball might not be for me.

So really what I am trying to say is that the likes of Iwobi, V Moses, and real high quality Nigerian foreign-born talent can only add to the team. Trust me, the true intelligent and self-aware local players that have an opportunity to train with them can only be inspired.

Honestly, I'm not as pissed with Pinnick as you guys. This is what he feels he needs to do to be successful. I don't know about a quota for local players like you suggested. Quotas and sports do not work well together. If a local player is just the best of the rest, he needs to work harder to get to a level where he cannot be ignored.

The likes of Finidi George and Amokachi did it so it's not impossible.

BTW, Tunji at Boston University, not BC...
The same university where Emenalo (a defender in Naija) became all-time scoring leader.

Tunji was the FIRST basketball player in the entire history of college basketball in the entire New England area, which covers Massachusetts, Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Rhode Island and Connecticut, to score 2000 points and grab 1000 rebounds (and bear in mind that basketball was invented in New England by Dr. Naismith).

Tunji is only one of about four Division 1 college basketball players in the entire 80-year history of NCAA basketball in the US to have at least 2000 points, 1000 rebounds and 300 blocked shots (the others being basketball hall of famers David Robinson and Alonzo Mourning, plus Derrick Coleman). He was also a four-year MVP in college and won both conference POTY and tournament MVP in his senior year.

Going by your theory, every player that Tunji dominated in his US high school senior year and college career just “did not have the exposure” to proper basketball education, training, equipment and residual knowledge - even though virtually all of them grew up playing organized basketball in the US while Tunji was running around the streets of Lagos playing at Rowe Park Yaba and so on, with little formal coaching.

A 20 year old in high school and prolly 24 in biological terms will dominate. Same for college. Not surprising that things went south for him when he lined up against his age mates in the “Association” and he was soon made 2 find his level.

[Cellular]

Bros Cellular,

When I was a rookie in Ebun Comets, we had a continental game in Algeria. A few of us were on the fringes, so you can imagine our consternation when some mercenaries from US College bball turned up in training.

I was already on the fringes so I knew automatically nothing for me. A few others were in the same boat and were very angry, as these guys were not even registered to be on the team. It was pure mago mago.

However, when Tunji Awojobi (he was in Boston College) at that time started playing, I knew that I was playing only joke basketball. It wasn't really my fault, as I did not have the exposure he had, but deep down in me, I realized that I just wasn't good enough and to be even close to what Tunji was, I had to quadruple my effort. Tbh seeing these guys was one of the reasons that I knew top level bball might not be for me.

So really what I am trying to say is that the likes of Iwobi, V Moses, and real high quality Nigerian foreign-born talent can only add to the team. Trust me, the true intelligent and self-aware local players that have an opportunity to train with them can only be inspired.

Honestly, I'm not as pissed with Pinnick as you guys. This is what he feels he needs to do to be successful. I don't know about a quota for local players like you suggested. Quotas and sports do not work well together. If a local player is just the best of the rest, he needs to work harder to get to a level where he cannot be ignored.

The likes of Finidi George and Amokachi did it so it's not impossible.

Thanks Airwolex. You inadvertently made my point. It was the exposure to Tunji Awojobi that opened your eyes on the type of effort and skill level you needed to reach.

Where would you have been if not for that exposure?

[bushboy]

I'm still confused by the direction this thread is taking. My argument is not about disparaging home grown players. In fact, I have clearly stated that some of them possess more NATURAL TALENT than some of the foreign bases ones.

I am simply stating the indisputable fact, that the level of training, coaching, nutrition and development the players trained in foreign academies enjoy is SUPERIOR to what the home based ones receive and they are likely to develop into better OVERALL footballers than the local based lads.

So, it makes perfect sense that the bulk (if not the entire) national team should consist of these foreign trained players.

I FULLY SUPPORT an SE made ENTIRELY of foreign trained players. They are the best we have and they should all be brought in. England. Germany. America. Any where there is a talented player of Nigerian origin, we need them all!!

[maceo4]

I'm still confused by the direction this thread is taking. My argument is not about disparaging home grown players. In fact, I have clearly stated that some of them possess more NATURAL TALENT than some of the foreign bases ones.

I am simply stating the indisputable fact, that the level of training, coaching, nutrition and development the players trained in foreign academies enjoy is SUPERIOR to what the home based ones receive and they are likely to develop into better OVERALL footballers than the local based lads.

So, it makes perfect sense that the bulk (if not the entire) national team should consist of these foreign trained players.

I FULLY SUPPORT an SE made ENTIRELY of foreign trained players. They are the best we have and they should all be brought in. England. Germany. America. Any where there is a talented player of Nigerian origin, we need them all!!

I hear you and that's the current situation, but the only way we will challenge the best teams in the world is if we can provide the same level of training, coaching, nutrition and development in our local academies as well. Because what we will get from these foreign academies are the left-overs that didn't quite make it and not the best of the best. To me this is what Pinnicks focus should be on is improving the local scene rather than what he seems to be doing which is ignoring it to focus on the left-overs. This is extremely short-sighted IMO...

[bushboy]

^^^
My broda. How much can we improve the local academies? What is the process you suggest that Amaju adopt? The only thing that will work is an influx of a substantial amount of funds. Money is the only thing that will lure top trainers, coaches, and nutritionists to give up fat paychecks in Europe, China and the middle east to come and work in Nigeria. We do not have access to that level of funds!

Let us face reality. The best we can do is send away all our top talents to go enjoy training under the best conditions abroad and then bring them back to represent us. Naija culture is booming right now. The music. The movies. The "coolness" it is no longer as difficult to attract these naija kids to come rep the GWG. They are as Naija as it gets, especially in London.

I want every single one of these players to be chased hard! Pinnick is doing the right thing.

[Zelex]

^^^
My broda. How much can we improve the local academies? What is the process you suggest that Amaju adopt? The only thing that will work is an influx of a substantial amount of funds. Money is the only thing that will lure top trainers, coaches, and nutritionists to give up fat paychecks in Europe, China and the middle east to come and work in Nigeria. We do not have access to that level of funds!

Let us face reality. The best we can do is send away all our top talents to go enjoy training under the best conditions abroad and then bring them back to represent us. Naija culture is booming right now. The music. The movies. The "coolness" it is no longer as difficult to attract these naija kids to come rep the GWG. They are as Naija as it gets, especially in London.

I want every single one of these players to be chased hard! Pinnick is doing the right thing.

I don't think there is anything wrong with what you've said but it does rub me the wrong way slightly. My issue is that it reads as if foreign-trained players are automatically going take Nigeria to an unprecedented level (not sure where this feeling comes from), whilst not impossible I see no evidence of this thus far. They are welcome additions and help improve the squad but these players are hardly potential world-beaters.

[bushboy]

^^
Whether they end up becoming "world beaters" remains to be seen. But the one thing we know for sure is that they are BETTER than the local trained lads.
So, does it not make sense to play the law of averages? To play the team that offers a HIGHER PROBABILITY of success?

Anyone who can sit there and tell me traing is not the most significant part of player development is delusional.

At U-17, we win titles left and right because at that age, skill and physicality is what will often carry the day as most players at age are in their mental and tactical infancy.

Just 3 SHORT YEARS extra in training and it becomes day and night. We are yet to win a SINGLE title at U20 level.

You think that is coincidence?

[Lolly]

we should also open a thread and talk about " the Case for the Igbo eagles" also we can add the case for the Hausa eagles, then include the case for the Yoruba eagles. Why stop there we can add the case for the dutch eagle, or better yet the German eagle.
I will like to add the case for the Efik eagles

what a very race baiting thread

Bros...you miss the point. Anyway, this is simple, the best players who are eligible as Nigerians must play without bias.

I love Etebo, Chukwueze etc and if the pako Eagus can dominate the team top to bottom I would be happy...however it would be criminal to have ballers that are better tjhan what we have now and not use them because of sentiments and bias.

Imagine excluding the likes of V Moses, Iwobi, Ekong and Balogun? Just imagine.

It is not about excluding them. It is about giving someone an opportunity especially in positions of need.

You of all people should know this. You were once a local basketball player and went overseas and you saw that with some exposure and better training some of the local players can compete and compete well. If you were called to camp there's no way you won't take back some of the good training and exposure you got in camp back to your team and share with your mates so that collectively you all will get better.

It is just an extension of train the trainer...

Give these guys an opportunity to compete. We are not saying give them automatic shirts or reserve automatic shirts for local players... just give them an opportunity to compete/train with their foreign counterparts. It is a win-win for everyone involved.

Pinnick surely has never hidden the fact that his focus is all Europe. Thor has done the same. It is wrong to claim there are no good footballers playing in Nigeria when you have not cared enough to scout them. Surely, if Rohr is enamored by guys barely playing at clubs in Europe then there are some young excellent prospects playing locally. Do not simply dismiss them or given some token attention.

I know it is a different sport but the sprinter Divine Oduduru is a prime example of a kid who knew he was good and was begging for an opportunity to prove he was good. Luckily for him there was a platform in Naija where scouts saw him and took a chance on him.

Now, imagine if Blessing was a footballer. He won't be given a platform (International Competition) to show his raw talent.

Pinnick would have gone to the US and Europe looking for someone that was already there or marginal at best.

When I see Esiti play, I am like whoever recommended him should be flogged. Didn't he see a tape of the guy? Would he have recommended him if he wasn't playing in Europe?

Now, contrast that with Aribo. You watch him and you are like, "now, that's a footballer..." His quality was just too obvious.

Our Gotti thinks he is a fantastic player.

[Zelex]

^^
Whether they end up becoming "world beaters" remains to be seen. But the one thing we know for sure is that they are BETTER than the local trained lads.
So, does it not make sense to play the law of averages? To play the team that offers a HIGHER PROBABILITY of success?

Anyone who can sit there and tell me traing is not the most significant part of player development is delusional.

At U-17, we win titles left and right because at that age, skill and physicality is what will often carry the day as most players at age are in their mental and tactical infancy.

Just 3 SHORT YEARS extra in training and it becomes day and night. We are yet to win a SINGLE title at U20 level.

You think that is coincidence?

What is your definition of local-trained players? Is there a cut-off age? I am assuming you are refer to those that had their footballing education in Nigeria. So this includes players such as Osimhen, Ndidi, Samuel Kalu who were developed by Nigerian academies. They couldn't move to Europe till the age of 18. I also don't believe they played any youth games at their European clubs, they went straight into the 1st team.

Or are we referring to players that are plying their trade in the NPFL only?

If the latter, then I wouldn't disagree much with what you've said generally. However, I think locally-trained players are also included in the 1st and they compromise the majority of our "talented" players.

[Lolly]

I see two questions here:

1. The development of home-grown players
2. Fielding overseas-born players (or those who started their development overseas) in the national team.

These are two separate issues.

I wouldn't have a problem if Nigeria fielded a team which consisted of players born in Europe - provided they were chosen on merit.

At the same time, I would like to see the improvements in the local game - playing (technical), coaching, and off field activities.

[bushboy]

^^
Whether they end up becoming "world beaters" remains to be seen. But the one thing we know for sure is that they are BETTER than the local trained lads.
So, does it not make sense to play the law of averages? To play the team that offers a HIGHER PROBABILITY of success?

Anyone who can sit there and tell me traing is not the most significant part of player development is delusional.

At U-17, we win titles left and right because at that age, skill and physicality is what will often carry the day as most players at age are in their mental and tactical infancy.

Just 3 SHORT YEARS extra in training and it becomes day and night. We are yet to win a SINGLE title at U20 level.

You think that is coincidence?

What is your definition of local-trained players? Is there a cut-off age? I am assuming you are refer to those that had their footballing education in Nigeria. So this includes players such as Osimhen, Ndidi, Samuel Kalu who were developed by Nigerian academies. They couldn't move to Europe till the age of 18. I also don't believe they played any youth games at their European clubs, they went straight into the 1st team.

Or are we referring to players that are plying their trade in the NPFL only?

If the latter, then I wouldn't disagree much with what you've said generally. However, I think locally-trained players are also included in the 1st and they compromise the majority of our "talented" players.

I think I answered this question already in my earlier post in regards the UI7. At that age skill and physicality is all that is required. The mental and tactical aspects of the game can be seen once you reach U20 level. Around age 19 and above.

This is why hundreds of players dubbed "the next messi" or "next Ronaldo" fizzle out as they reach this age group.

So ANY talented player worth his salt should fall into 2 categories:
1. Born and trained abroad.
2. Moves abroad before he turns 19.

ANY player who is still in a Naija academy at this age has already missed the boat. It means he is simply not good enough.

It is that simple. We should focus our energy solely of players who fall into the 2 categories above. They are the BEST available.

[wanaj0]

Maybe if you are less emotional we can actually have a debate.

Stop being silly wanaj0.
You are definitely playing to the gallery with this 'emotional' accusation you're making.
What is "emotional" about the points I've made?
Just stick to the topic, abeg.
It wasn't me bringing up 'wowoisms' and 'Oyibo na oyibo' abstracts into a factual debate.

Interesting but will not go that route with you

. Says it all from the person who first talked about removing emotions. Have a good day.

[oscar52]

Not sure I can find a game involving 7 or more "Foreign raised" Nigerians entertaining. I think one has to spend some time in Nigeria to have that rhythm, flair, and passion for the game that Nigerians have. Many of this kids only have one parent that is Nigerian so not sure how they can have it. They can develop it a bit sha as we have seem with Ekong and a lessor extent Balogun. Even Iwobi does not quite have it but tries to fake it

[Eaglezbeak]

All I know is that I hear people being described as having cockney accent..

Babayaro

[/video]

He is what the English would call well spoken, he doesn’t sound Cockney in the slightest!

[Damunk]

Maybe if you are less emotional we can actually have a debate.

Stop being silly wanaj0.
You are definitely playing to the gallery with this 'emotional' accusation you're making.
What is "emotional" about the points I've made?
Just stick to the topic, abeg.
It wasn't me bringing up 'wowoisms' and 'Oyibo na oyibo' abstracts into a factual debate.

Interesting but will not go that route with you

. Says it all from the person who first talked about removing emotions. Have a good day.

You too.