Random thoughts on Nigeria vs Brazil...

Where Eagles dare! Discuss Nigerian related football (soccer) topics here.

Moderators: Moderator Team, phpBB2 - Administrators

Post Reply
User avatar
txj
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 37837
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:35 pm
Random thoughts on Nigeria vs Brazil...

Post by txj »

1. First, a creditable result against one of the powers of world football.

2. Overall a very impressive defensive organization. But a bit strange watching a tournament-style defensive performance in an international friendly.

https://africanfutbol.blogspot.com/2019 ... razil.html
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 29476
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:39 am
Re: Random thoughts on Nigeria vs Brazil...

Post by EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA »

txj wrote:1. First, a creditable result against one of the powers of world football.

2. Overall a very impressive defensive organization. But a bit strange watching a tournament-style defensive performance in an international friendly.

https://africanfutbol.blogspot.com/2019 ... razil.html

what is a turnament style defensive performance? Sounds like you're questioning the audacity of Nigeria to commit to defence v mighty Brazil. Colo is over bro. We can approach game any way we so choose regardlss of how Massa feels.
OCCUPY NFF!!
User avatar
Eaglezbeak
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 15919
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:51 pm
Location: South London
Contact:
Re: Random thoughts on Nigeria vs Brazil...

Post by Eaglezbeak »

txj wrote:1. First, a creditable result against one of the powers of world football.

2. Overall a very impressive defensive organization. But a bit strange watching a tournament-style defensive performance in an international friendly.

https://africanfutbol.blogspot.com/2019 ... razil.html
Agreed but Nigeria needed to work on that side of their game especially after losing to Argentina and Algeria (both 2-1) in the last minutes of crucial games,you can’t Plan to re-enact such scenarios but today they didn’t buckle against a Brazil team that had to redeem themselves after recent performances so it was a worth while exercise although not to pretty to watch!
WHAT SHALL BE SHALL BE SABI
User avatar
txj
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 37837
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:35 pm
Re: Random thoughts on Nigeria vs Brazil...

Post by txj »

EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote:
txj wrote:1. First, a creditable result against one of the powers of world football.

2. Overall a very impressive defensive organization. But a bit strange watching a tournament-style defensive performance in an international friendly.

https://africanfutbol.blogspot.com/2019 ... razil.html

what is a turnament style defensive performance? Sounds like you're questioning the audacity of Nigeria to commit to defence v mighty Brazil. Colo is over bro. We can approach game any way we so choose regardlss of how Massa feels.
You should learn to read and comprehend. Its not a criticism; just an observation.

We can defend and still offer a greater attacking threat, as well as play with greater flair....

We have the players to do it...
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
User avatar
txj
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 37837
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:35 pm
Re: Random thoughts on Nigeria vs Brazil...

Post by txj »

Eaglezbeak wrote:
txj wrote:1. First, a creditable result against one of the powers of world football.

2. Overall a very impressive defensive organization. But a bit strange watching a tournament-style defensive performance in an international friendly.

https://africanfutbol.blogspot.com/2019 ... razil.html
Agreed but Nigeria needed to work on that side of their game especially after losing to Argentina and Algeria (both 2-1) in the last minutes of crucial games,you can’t Plan to re-enact such scenarios but today they didn’t buckle against a Brazil team that had to redeem themselves after recent performances so it was a worth while exercise although not to pretty to watch!

As I said, we need to work on our possession. Its important to use that to relieve some pressure on the defence.
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
User avatar
maceo4
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 46728
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 6:41 am
Location: Land of the Terrapins
Contact:
Re: Random thoughts on Nigeria vs Brazil...

Post by maceo4 »

Eaglezbeak wrote:
txj wrote:1. First, a creditable result against one of the powers of world football.

2. Overall a very impressive defensive organization. But a bit strange watching a tournament-style defensive performance in an international friendly.

https://africanfutbol.blogspot.com/2019 ... razil.html
Agreed but Nigeria needed to work on that side of their game especially after losing to Argentina and Algeria (both 2-1) in the last minutes of crucial games,you can’t Plan to re-enact such scenarios but today they didn’t buckle against a Brazil team that had to redeem themselves after recent performances so it was a worth while exercise although not to pretty to watch!
We didn't buckle only by virtue of luck/circumstance after they hit our bar/post umpteen times, we did the exact same thing we did in those matches we just happened to get a more positive result by happen-stance. I don't get why we don't even attempt to get/keep hold of the ball and why we just defend so deep, eventually you will buckle to the pressure. Senegal was able to keep the ball, defend better and push a fresher Brazil more and the tied result more so reflected the balance of play. We just simply tried to get a result and didn't really improve on our weaknesses which is keeping the ball. We made less than half the amount of passes (294 to 696) they did and were still much less accurate (89% vs 76%). How do we get to the point where we can actually PLAY with bigger teams and not just try in a cowardly way to get a result. Senegal made 436 passes to Brazil's 499 at 85% accuracy compare to Brazil's 90%...
Super Eagus 4 Life!
Made in the image of God that's a selfie!
User avatar
Eaglezbeak
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 15919
Joined: Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:51 pm
Location: South London
Contact:
Re: Random thoughts on Nigeria vs Brazil...

Post by Eaglezbeak »

maceo4 wrote:
Eaglezbeak wrote:
txj wrote:1. First, a creditable result against one of the powers of world football.

2. Overall a very impressive defensive organization. But a bit strange watching a tournament-style defensive performance in an international friendly.

https://africanfutbol.blogspot.com/2019 ... razil.html
Agreed but Nigeria needed to work on that side of their game especially after losing to Argentina and Algeria (both 2-1) in the last minutes of crucial games,you can’t Plan to re-enact such scenarios but today they didn’t buckle against a Brazil team that had to redeem themselves after recent performances so it was a worth while exercise although not to pretty to watch!
We didn't buckle only by virtue of luck/circumstance after they hit our bar/post umpteen times, we did the exact same thing we did in those matches we just happened to get a more positive result by happen-stance. I don't get why we don't even attempt to get/keep hold of the ball and why we just defend so deep, eventually you will buckle to the pressure. Senegal was able to keep the ball, defend better and push a fresher Brazil more and the tied result more so reflected the balance of play. We just simply tried to get a result and didn't really improve on our weaknesses which is keeping the ball. We made less than half the amount of passes (294 to 696) they did and were still much less accurate (89% vs 76%). How do we get to the point where we can actually PLAY with bigger teams and not just try in a cowardly way to get a result. Senegal made 436 passes to Brazil's 499 at 85% accuracy compare to Brazil's 90%...
Agreed it’s what we haven’t been doing that causes the pressure but it usually catches up and bites in the dying minutes because of all the running around trying to retrieve the ball then when we do get it back we just clear it back into the feet of the pressing opponent, we start to make sloppy mistakes by stretching and committing unnecessary fouls around the area!
WHAT SHALL BE SHALL BE SABI
User avatar
Damunk
Flying Eagle
Flying Eagle
Posts: 52782
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 5:57 pm
Location: UK
Re: Random thoughts on Nigeria vs Brazil...

Post by Damunk »

maceo4 wrote:We didn't buckle only by virtue of luck/circumstance after they hit our bar/post umpteen times, we did the exact same thing we did in those matches we just happened to get a more positive result by happen-stance.
Uhm...chief....thats a slight' exaggeration. They hit the bar/post two, maybe three times? One of which they scored with.
Which one is umpteen times?
We have all seen matches when the crossbar/post has saved teams. This definitely isnt one of them.
But I might be wrong. Maybe they hit the woodwork 5 or 6 times as you authoritatively imply :idea:

I don't get why we don't even attempt to get/keep hold of the ball and why we just defend so deep, eventually you will buckle to the pressure. Senegal was able to keep the ball, defend better and push a fresher Brazil more and the tied result more so reflected the balance of play.
Firstly, I think you need to come to terms with the fact that on balance, Brazil is just about the most skillful team in the world. They keep ball in their sleep. Its even on their national flag! :)
So getting the ball off them is not beans - for anyone.

With all their ball possession, what did they do with it? Could it be they were playing with the ball mostly in areas where they couldn't hurt us? Was the majority of their possession used to try and figure out a way of breaking down the defence? Is that a legit strategy or not?
Did they succeed? How many shots on target did they achieve as a result of their ball possession?
I think these are the key questions that put the game in context, rather than taking isolated stats to feed our subjectivity.

We just simply tried to get a result and didn't really improve on our weaknesses which is keeping the ball. We made less than half the amount of passes (294 to 696) they did and were still much less accurate (89% vs 76%).
So here's the thing for me: They had greater possession, greater pass accuracy and about the same no of shots on target. Game ended 1-1.
How does one interpret those stats?
What was happening to their possession?
Where were the passes being made?
What was the outcome of those passes?
Were they generally being beaten to tackles?
Were they keeping possession but shooting at the floodlights?
Were they politely giving back the ball to our players as an act of gentlemanly conduct?
What exactly happened with the 89% pass accuracy ie 696 passes?

As fr us keeping the ball, I do not think we did too badly with our looking after the ball, esp in defence. I can probably remember about 8-10 unforced errors, giving the ball away at close quarters and a larger number of long balls going to opponents. Those def can be improved upon.
But unless you refuse to recognise the overall superiority of the individual Brazilian players, you can't be surprised that they had an overwhelming possession and we can't keep the ball like they do.
Daz how star do. :idea:
How do we get to the point where we can actually PLAY with bigger teams and not just try in a cowardly way to get a result. Senegal made 436 passes to Brazil's 499 at 85% accuracy compare to Brazil's 90%...
Maybe Senegal is a better team? No shame in that.
We are getting there I believe.
There are many other subjective ways to argue those or any other stats, including the tactical approach to the game. I could for instance argue that Senegal fell well short. What did they do with their 85% pass accuracy and 47% possession?
Game still ended 1-1 against the same opposition.

What would have been the outcome yesterday if we achieved that degree of possession and accuracy?
Its all conjecture. I think Brazil needs to be respected by us fans.
Let the players do the disrespecting if they can and at their own risk. :idea:
"Ole kuku ni gbogbo wọn "
User avatar
Tobi17
Egg
Egg
Posts: 9681
Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:44 am
Re: Random thoughts on Nigeria vs Brazil...

Post by Tobi17 »

What's with the deal about Senegal playing better against Brazil than Nigeria did? save for the Mane moment of brilliance that got them a penalty, they didn't produce any decent attack or goal scoring opportunities against Brazil all game, they had as much shots on target as Nigeria did. Secondly the only reason they had more time on the ball compared to Nigeria was because the formation they played gave them more options on and off the ball(especially in midfield), I still feel the formation Rohr deployed didn't do us any favors at all... lastly, if we didn't attack as much because we seriously missed the tenacity of Etebo in midfield (a Etebo, Ndidi, Aribo) midfield would babe helped in fast ball recovery and initiated quick transitions into attack (wish Samuel Kalu was fit for the game), Simon did well but a Kalu/Osimhen/Chukwueze combination would have definitely given Brazil much more the worry about...
User avatar
metalalloy
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 49686
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 9:22 pm
Re: Random thoughts on Nigeria vs Brazil...

Post by metalalloy »

maceo4 wrote:
Eaglezbeak wrote:
txj wrote:1. First, a creditable result against one of the powers of world football.

2. Overall a very impressive defensive organization. But a bit strange watching a tournament-style defensive performance in an international friendly.

https://africanfutbol.blogspot.com/2019 ... razil.html
Agreed but Nigeria needed to work on that side of their game especially after losing to Argentina and Algeria (both 2-1) in the last minutes of crucial games,you can’t Plan to re-enact such scenarios but today they didn’t buckle against a Brazil team that had to redeem themselves after recent performances so it was a worth while exercise although not to pretty to watch!
We didn't buckle only by virtue of luck/circumstance after they hit our bar/post umpteen times, we did the exact same thing we did in those matches we just happened to get a more positive result by happen-stance. I don't get why we don't even attempt to get/keep hold of the ball and why we just defend so deep, eventually you will buckle to the pressure. Senegal was able to keep the ball, defend better and push a fresher Brazil more and the tied result more so reflected the balance of play. We just simply tried to get a result and didn't really improve on our weaknesses which is keeping the ball. We made less than half the amount of passes (294 to 696) they did and were still much less accurate (89% vs 76%). How do we get to the point where we can actually PLAY with bigger teams and not just try in a cowardly way to get a result. Senegal made 436 passes to Brazil's 499 at 85% accuracy compare to Brazil's 90%...
Both teams have different approaches. Rohr sets up his team to sit deep and break on the counter. The team is getting a lot more solid defensively, the question is whether he can improve the transition to offense in a more structured/ defined way, and NIgeria will be a very difficult team to handle.
We have been brainwashed by the Premier League that it's the best in the world. Nonsense. It's the best brand
Roy Keane: ITV 02/25/14

He says that we are currently "brainwashed" into believing that the Premier League is the best competition in the world, and that we are now a long way off dominating the Champions League again.
Gary Neville: Mirror: 12/23/14

I think Spain’s by far the best league.
Scholes. UK Guardian 9/6/16
User avatar
metalalloy
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 49686
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 9:22 pm
Re: Random thoughts on Nigeria vs Brazil...

Post by metalalloy »

txj wrote:1. First, a creditable result against one of the powers of world football.

2. Overall a very impressive defensive organization. But a bit strange watching a tournament-style defensive performance in an international friendly.

https://africanfutbol.blogspot.com/2019 ... razil.html

Good write up.
We have been brainwashed by the Premier League that it's the best in the world. Nonsense. It's the best brand
Roy Keane: ITV 02/25/14

He says that we are currently "brainwashed" into believing that the Premier League is the best competition in the world, and that we are now a long way off dominating the Champions League again.
Gary Neville: Mirror: 12/23/14

I think Spain’s by far the best league.
Scholes. UK Guardian 9/6/16
User avatar
maceo4
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 46728
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 6:41 am
Location: Land of the Terrapins
Contact:
Re: Random thoughts on Nigeria vs Brazil...

Post by maceo4 »

metalalloy wrote:
maceo4 wrote:
Eaglezbeak wrote:
txj wrote:1. First, a creditable result against one of the powers of world football.

2. Overall a very impressive defensive organization. But a bit strange watching a tournament-style defensive performance in an international friendly.

https://africanfutbol.blogspot.com/2019 ... razil.html
Agreed but Nigeria needed to work on that side of their game especially after losing to Argentina and Algeria (both 2-1) in the last minutes of crucial games,you can’t Plan to re-enact such scenarios but today they didn’t buckle against a Brazil team that had to redeem themselves after recent performances so it was a worth while exercise although not to pretty to watch!
We didn't buckle only by virtue of luck/circumstance after they hit our bar/post umpteen times, we did the exact same thing we did in those matches we just happened to get a more positive result by happen-stance. I don't get why we don't even attempt to get/keep hold of the ball and why we just defend so deep, eventually you will buckle to the pressure. Senegal was able to keep the ball, defend better and push a fresher Brazil more and the tied result more so reflected the balance of play. We just simply tried to get a result and didn't really improve on our weaknesses which is keeping the ball. We made less than half the amount of passes (294 to 696) they did and were still much less accurate (89% vs 76%). How do we get to the point where we can actually PLAY with bigger teams and not just try in a cowardly way to get a result. Senegal made 436 passes to Brazil's 499 at 85% accuracy compare to Brazil's 90%...
Both teams have different approaches. Rohr sets up his team to sit deep and break on the counter. The team is getting a lot more solid defensively, the question is whether he can improve the transition to offense in a more structured/ defined way, and NIgeria will be a very difficult team to handle.
My problem is that’s all we are ever set up to do. There is no variety in our approach even though it has failed us multiple times. Rohr continues sticking to it even in friendliest where he can work on other strategies. It’s sad that people are praising cowardly play because it fortuitously got us a result in a friendly match completely ignoring the bigger picture and how no progress has actually been made in our style of play. We are still playing deep which eventually tired out our players and puts lots of pressure on our defense and young goalie, which is probably not the best way to play just hoping the other team fails to score the numerous chances they will undoubtedly get...
Super Eagus 4 Life!
Made in the image of God that's a selfie!
User avatar
Zelex
Egg
Egg
Posts: 5035
Joined: Tue Mar 31, 2009 8:50 pm
Location: London
Re: Random thoughts on Nigeria vs Brazil...

Post by Zelex »

maceo4 wrote:
metalalloy wrote:
maceo4 wrote:
Eaglezbeak wrote:
txj wrote:1. First, a creditable result against one of the powers of world football.

2. Overall a very impressive defensive organization. But a bit strange watching a tournament-style defensive performance in an international friendly.

https://africanfutbol.blogspot.com/2019 ... razil.html
Agreed but Nigeria needed to work on that side of their game especially after losing to Argentina and Algeria (both 2-1) in the last minutes of crucial games,you can’t Plan to re-enact such scenarios but today they didn’t buckle against a Brazil team that had to redeem themselves after recent performances so it was a worth while exercise although not to pretty to watch!
We didn't buckle only by virtue of luck/circumstance after they hit our bar/post umpteen times, we did the exact same thing we did in those matches we just happened to get a more positive result by happen-stance. I don't get why we don't even attempt to get/keep hold of the ball and why we just defend so deep, eventually you will buckle to the pressure. Senegal was able to keep the ball, defend better and push a fresher Brazil more and the tied result more so reflected the balance of play. We just simply tried to get a result and didn't really improve on our weaknesses which is keeping the ball. We made less than half the amount of passes (294 to 696) they did and were still much less accurate (89% vs 76%). How do we get to the point where we can actually PLAY with bigger teams and not just try in a cowardly way to get a result. Senegal made 436 passes to Brazil's 499 at 85% accuracy compare to Brazil's 90%...
Both teams have different approaches. Rohr sets up his team to sit deep and break on the counter. The team is getting a lot more solid defensively, the question is whether he can improve the transition to offense in a more structured/ defined way, and NIgeria will be a very difficult team to handle.
My problem is that’s all we are ever set up to do. There is no variety in our approach even though it has failed us multiple times. Rohr continues sticking to it even in friendliest where he can work on other strategies. It’s sad that people are praising cowardly play because it fortuitously got us a result in a friendly match completely ignoring the bigger picture and how no progress has actually been made in our style of play. We are still playing deep which eventually tired out our players and puts lots of pressure on our defense and young goalie, which is probably not the best way to play just hoping the other team fails to score the numerous chances they will undoubtedly get...
I'm with you here however I wouldn't say it is cowardly. It's a style that has been successful with many teams across the globe. A style he thinks suits the pool of players we have. There are two issues I have though:

1) It's a style uses regardless of the opposition, which makes the SE quite predictable.
2) As you noted, we are seeing the same pattern within matches over and over again. Players get tired in the 2nd half where they begin to concede more chances. Not much improvement in this regard.

If Rohr can get the players to execute his tactical vision (which obviously takes some time) then there is potential to have a team that could challenge the very best. What I'm not seeing is improvements in the tactical execution. Any improvements thus far have been marginal IMO.
Zelex-CE World Cup 2010 prediction Winner
http://forum.cybereagles.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=177767
User avatar
maceo4
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 46728
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 6:41 am
Location: Land of the Terrapins
Contact:
Re: Random thoughts on Nigeria vs Brazil...

Post by maceo4 »

Damunk wrote: Which one is umpteen times?
Just means multiple times
With all their ball possession, what did they do with it? Could it be they were playing with the ball mostly in areas where they couldn't hurt us? Was the majority of their possession used to try and figure out a way of breaking down the defence? Is that a legit strategy or not?
Did they succeed? How many shots on target did they achieve as a result of their ball possession?
I think these are the key questions that put the game in context, rather than taking isolated stats to feed our subjectivity
You are missing the point, controlling possession is not necessarily about creating more chances as Brazil is solid defensively, its about controlling the game thereby preventing Brazil from creating too many chances and putting your team under too much pressure where they will eventually crack. You can easily see it in the stats against Nigeria they had 20 shots 6 on target while about half of that 11 shots 4 on target vs Senegal. Senegals defense and keeper was under much less pressure than ours. Its clearly possible as Senegal showed...

So here's the thing for me: They had greater possession, greater pass accuracy and about the same no of shots on target. Game ended 1-1.
How does one interpret those stats?
What was happening to their possession?
Where were the passes being made?
What was the outcome of those passes?
Were they generally being beaten to tackles?
Were they keeping possession but shooting at the floodlights?
Were they politely giving back the ball to our players as an act of gentlemanly conduct?
What exactly happened with the 89% pass accuracy ie 696 passes?

As fr us keeping the ball, I do not think we did too badly with our looking after the ball, esp in defence. I can probably remember about 8-10 unforced errors, giving the ball away at close quarters and a larger number of long balls going to opponents. Those def can be improved upon.
But unless you refuse to recognise the overall superiority of the individual Brazilian players, you can't be surprised that they had an overwhelming possession and we can't keep the ball like they do.
Daz how star do. :idea:
You are fixated on the result of the game in a friendly match, when the bigger picture is yes we got a result ON THE DAY, but the strategy we employed (and have done multiple times) has been a losing one for us in important games as we saw at the WC and ANC...
Maybe Senegal is a better team? No shame in that.
We are getting there I believe.
There are many other subjective ways to argue those or any other stats, including the tactical approach to the game. I could for instance argue that Senegal fell well short. What did they do with their 85% pass accuracy and 47% possession?
Game still ended 1-1 against the same opposition.
Again focusing on the wrong thing for a friendly, its not about final result, but getting the confidence that they can play THEIR game against one of the best. Play positive footie while keeping possession and stifling one of the best attacks in the world. Of course they are a better team than us with better individual players who are comfortable with the ball at their feet, but we need to get to that point as well and not fall too far behind the Senegals and Algeria's.
What would have been the outcome yesterday if we achieved that degree of possession and accuracy?
Its all conjecture. I think Brazil needs to be respected by us fans.
Let the players do the disrespecting if they can and at their own risk. :idea:
The outcome of gaining the confidence that we can actually PLAY a positive game against a Brazil would be monumentus for our team. We gotta realize that there is no top 10 team in the world that plays this super defensive sitting deep strategy because it simply invites pressure on your team, they try to dictate the pace and control the game. We need to be working to get to that level not continue playing like minnows hoping for a result using negative soccer. Just annoying that we only have one style of play against every opponent and its a negative style that hasn't served us well in important games.
Super Eagus 4 Life!
Made in the image of God that's a selfie!
User avatar
maceo4
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 46728
Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 6:41 am
Location: Land of the Terrapins
Contact:
Re: Random thoughts on Nigeria vs Brazil...

Post by maceo4 »

Zelex wrote:
maceo4 wrote:
metalalloy wrote:
maceo4 wrote:
Eaglezbeak wrote:
txj wrote:1. First, a creditable result against one of the powers of world football.

2. Overall a very impressive defensive organization. But a bit strange watching a tournament-style defensive performance in an international friendly.

https://africanfutbol.blogspot.com/2019 ... razil.html
Agreed but Nigeria needed to work on that side of their game especially after losing to Argentina and Algeria (both 2-1) in the last minutes of crucial games,you can’t Plan to re-enact such scenarios but today they didn’t buckle against a Brazil team that had to redeem themselves after recent performances so it was a worth while exercise although not to pretty to watch!
We didn't buckle only by virtue of luck/circumstance after they hit our bar/post umpteen times, we did the exact same thing we did in those matches we just happened to get a more positive result by happen-stance. I don't get why we don't even attempt to get/keep hold of the ball and why we just defend so deep, eventually you will buckle to the pressure. Senegal was able to keep the ball, defend better and push a fresher Brazil more and the tied result more so reflected the balance of play. We just simply tried to get a result and didn't really improve on our weaknesses which is keeping the ball. We made less than half the amount of passes (294 to 696) they did and were still much less accurate (89% vs 76%). How do we get to the point where we can actually PLAY with bigger teams and not just try in a cowardly way to get a result. Senegal made 436 passes to Brazil's 499 at 85% accuracy compare to Brazil's 90%...
Both teams have different approaches. Rohr sets up his team to sit deep and break on the counter. The team is getting a lot more solid defensively, the question is whether he can improve the transition to offense in a more structured/ defined way, and NIgeria will be a very difficult team to handle.
My problem is that’s all we are ever set up to do. There is no variety in our approach even though it has failed us multiple times. Rohr continues sticking to it even in friendliest where he can work on other strategies. It’s sad that people are praising cowardly play because it fortuitously got us a result in a friendly match completely ignoring the bigger picture and how no progress has actually been made in our style of play. We are still playing deep which eventually tired out our players and puts lots of pressure on our defense and young goalie, which is probably not the best way to play just hoping the other team fails to score the numerous chances they will undoubtedly get...
I'm with you here however I wouldn't say it is cowardly. It's a style that has been successful with many teams across the globe. A style he thinks suits the pool of players we have. There are two issues I have though:

1) It's a style uses regardless of the opposition, which makes the SE quite predictable.
2) As you noted, we are seeing the same pattern within matches over and over again. Players get tired in the 2nd half where they begin to concede more chances. Not much improvement in this regard.

If Rohr can get the players to execute his tactical vision (which obviously takes some time) then there is potential to have a team that could challenge the very best. What I'm not seeing is improvements in the tactical execution. Any improvements thus far have been marginal IMO.
Good points, we keep executing it but aren't necessarily getting better at it...
Super Eagus 4 Life!
Made in the image of God that's a selfie!
User avatar
metalalloy
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 49686
Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 9:22 pm
Re: Random thoughts on Nigeria vs Brazil...

Post by metalalloy »

maceo4 wrote:
metalalloy wrote:
maceo4 wrote:
Eaglezbeak wrote:
txj wrote:1. First, a creditable result against one of the powers of world football.

2. Overall a very impressive defensive organization. But a bit strange watching a tournament-style defensive performance in an international friendly.

https://africanfutbol.blogspot.com/2019 ... razil.html
Agreed but Nigeria needed to work on that side of their game especially after losing to Argentina and Algeria (both 2-1) in the last minutes of crucial games,you can’t Plan to re-enact such scenarios but today they didn’t buckle against a Brazil team that had to redeem themselves after recent performances so it was a worth while exercise although not to pretty to watch!
We didn't buckle only by virtue of luck/circumstance after they hit our bar/post umpteen times, we did the exact same thing we did in those matches we just happened to get a more positive result by happen-stance. I don't get why we don't even attempt to get/keep hold of the ball and why we just defend so deep, eventually you will buckle to the pressure. Senegal was able to keep the ball, defend better and push a fresher Brazil more and the tied result more so reflected the balance of play. We just simply tried to get a result and didn't really improve on our weaknesses which is keeping the ball. We made less than half the amount of passes (294 to 696) they did and were still much less accurate (89% vs 76%). How do we get to the point where we can actually PLAY with bigger teams and not just try in a cowardly way to get a result. Senegal made 436 passes to Brazil's 499 at 85% accuracy compare to Brazil's 90%...
Both teams have different approaches. Rohr sets up his team to sit deep and break on the counter. The team is getting a lot more solid defensively, the question is whether he can improve the transition to offense in a more structured/ defined way, and NIgeria will be a very difficult team to handle.
My problem is that’s all we are ever set up to do. There is no variety in our approach even though it has failed us multiple times. Rohr continues sticking to it even in friendliest where he can work on other strategies. It’s sad that people are praising cowardly play because it fortuitously got us a result in a friendly match completely ignoring the bigger picture and how no progress has actually been made in our style of play. We are still playing deep which eventually tired out our players and puts lots of pressure on our defense and young goalie, which is probably not the best way to play just hoping the other team fails to score the numerous chances they will undoubtedly get...
And it is a work in progress. You can not expect overnight success. Unfortunately, the nature of the international football schedule does not accord many opportunities to hone a style of play in a short period of time. Couple that with the fact that under three years, the national team has undergone a lot of personnel change. It is not pretty for long stretches of games, but you can get glimpses of the potential of what this team can be when they break and push forward on the counter.

You must admit that we have made decent strides defensively with the way we recover and with the way the team tries to maintain a defensive shape as when we defend. We are getting difficult to break down. The next thing is to improve on our ability to possess the ball when we win it back, and also become a bit more structured when we counter. These things take time to implement. While you could look at the result as "fortuitous" I see a team who more than held its own against the 3rd best team in the world. Back when Nigeria played Brazil with "bravery" they collected three un-replied goals at home.

Rohr leaves a lot to desire with his approach, but should be given some time to keep on trying to build his team as he envisions it until a capable qualified replacement is found.
We have been brainwashed by the Premier League that it's the best in the world. Nonsense. It's the best brand
Roy Keane: ITV 02/25/14

He says that we are currently "brainwashed" into believing that the Premier League is the best competition in the world, and that we are now a long way off dominating the Champions League again.
Gary Neville: Mirror: 12/23/14

I think Spain’s by far the best league.
Scholes. UK Guardian 9/6/16
User avatar
green4life
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 45361
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 4:49 pm
Re: Random thoughts on Nigeria vs Brazil...

Post by green4life »

txj wrote:1. First, a creditable result against one of the powers of world football.

2. Overall a very impressive defensive organization. But a bit strange watching a tournament-style defensive performance in an international friendly.

https://africanfutbol.blogspot.com/2019 ... razil.html
Txj, thanks for sharing your well written article with CE. :clap:

We defended well enough to win the game. The reason why we failed to take advantage of counters is a combination of both Iwobi and Osimhen lacking influence in the possession & transition of play during the counter attacking phase. The key players are the folks occupying the '3rd-level' space in counter attacking transitional play. 1st level are the defenders; 2nd level are the DM/Deep lying CM while the 3rd level is handled by the AM/Striker and usually occurs around the center of the pitch (given Brazil defended very high all day).

The most dangerous play usually occurs in the 3rd level which opens the play for the winger to get onto the play in space running into the last third of the pitch which is where you end up with the 2 v 1 or 2 v 2 or 3 v 2's. Conversely, look at Wolves defending vs City and notice how they created quality chances (in both halves) leading to their 2-0 win: they defended very deeply on the day with more (5) players at the back but the difference was their striker was able to hold up play or release a quick pass on no more than 2 touches to create the openning for Adama Traore. Both worked as a tandem in that '3rd level' role in counter attacking play.

Our defenders against Brazil, won a lot of balls and the referee waved a lot of 50/50 tackles on in our favor, but we couldn't create dangerous chances because both Iwobi & Osimhen didn't quite execute their counter attacking roles properly. This is my humble opinion.
User avatar
txj
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 37837
Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:35 pm
Re: Random thoughts on Nigeria vs Brazil...

Post by txj »

G4L,

The problem as I see it is his dependence on the wide players to both offer the pace and the finish on the counter.

Since that is his approach, I'm not sure I understand why he just simply wont bring them closer and central, which is the case with your Wolves example...

As well as consider dropping say Simon for a central midfielder, and then play a 4-3-1-2, with Iwobi in the hole...

He's basically running the front trio into the ground...
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp
gochino
Egg
Egg
Posts: 1911
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:35 pm
Re: Random thoughts on Nigeria vs Brazil...

Post by gochino »

Eaglezbeak wrote:
txj wrote:1. First, a creditable result against one of the powers of world football.

2. Overall a very impressive defensive organization. But a bit strange watching a tournament-style defensive performance in an international friendly.

https://africanfutbol.blogspot.com/2019 ... razil.html
Agreed but Nigeria needed to work on that side of their game especially after losing to Argentina and Algeria (both 2-1) in the last minutes of crucial games,you can’t Plan to re-enact such scenarios but today they didn’t buckle against a Brazil team that had to redeem themselves after recent performances so it was a worth while exercise although not to pretty to watch!
Dude, we lost because we could not hold on to the ball and control the game, we lost because we could not keep possession and kept throwing it away! When you do that in tournaments, you get punished!
gochino
Egg
Egg
Posts: 1911
Joined: Wed Dec 30, 2009 8:35 pm
Re: Random thoughts on Nigeria vs Brazil...

Post by gochino »

maceo4 wrote:
Damunk wrote: Which one is umpteen times?
Just means multiple times
With all their ball possession, what did they do with it? Could it be they were playing with the ball mostly in areas where they couldn't hurt us? Was the majority of their possession used to try and figure out a way of breaking down the defence? Is that a legit strategy or not?
Did they succeed? How many shots on target did they achieve as a result of their ball possession?
I think these are the key questions that put the game in context, rather than taking isolated stats to feed our subjectivity
You are missing the point, controlling possession is not necessarily about creating more chances as Brazil is solid defensively, its about controlling the game thereby preventing Brazil from creating too many chances and putting your team under too much pressure where they will eventually crack. You can easily see it in the stats against Nigeria they had 20 shots 6 on target while about half of that 11 shots 4 on target vs Senegal. Senegals defense and keeper was under much less pressure than ours. Its clearly possible as Senegal showed...

So here's the thing for me: They had greater possession, greater pass accuracy and about the same no of shots on target. Game ended 1-1.
How does one interpret those stats?
What was happening to their possession?
Where were the passes being made?
What was the outcome of those passes?
Were they generally being beaten to tackles?
Were they keeping possession but shooting at the floodlights?
Were they politely giving back the ball to our players as an act of gentlemanly conduct?
What exactly happened with the 89% pass accuracy ie 696 passes?

As fr us keeping the ball, I do not think we did too badly with our looking after the ball, esp in defence. I can probably remember about 8-10 unforced errors, giving the ball away at close quarters and a larger number of long balls going to opponents. Those def can be improved upon.
But unless you refuse to recognise the overall superiority of the individual Brazilian players, you can't be surprised that they had an overwhelming possession and we can't keep the ball like they do.
Daz how star do. :idea:
You are fixated on the result of the game in a friendly match, when the bigger picture is yes we got a result ON THE DAY, but the strategy we employed (and have done multiple times) has been a losing one for us in important games as we saw at the WC and ANC...
Maybe Senegal is a better team? No shame in that.
We are getting there I believe.
There are many other subjective ways to argue those or any other stats, including the tactical approach to the game. I could for instance argue that Senegal fell well short. What did they do with their 85% pass accuracy and 47% possession?
Game still ended 1-1 against the same opposition.
Again focusing on the wrong thing for a friendly, its not about final result, but getting the confidence that they can play THEIR game against one of the best. Play positive footie while keeping possession and stifling one of the best attacks in the world. Of course they are a better team than us with better individual players who are comfortable with the ball at their feet, but we need to get to that point as well and not fall too far behind the Senegals and Algeria's.
What would have been the outcome yesterday if we achieved that degree of possession and accuracy?
Its all conjecture. I think Brazil needs to be respected by us fans.
Let the players do the disrespecting if they can and at their own risk. :idea:
The outcome of gaining the confidence that we can actually PLAY a positive game against a Brazil would be monumentus for our team. We gotta realize that there is no top 10 team in the world that plays this super defensive sitting deep strategy because it simply invites pressure on your team, they try to dictate the pace and control the game. We need to be working to get to that level not continue playing like minnows hoping for a result using negative soccer. Just annoying that we only have one style of play against every opponent and its a negative style that hasn't served us well in important games.
Wow, finally someone making sense! I pity the players that need to run after the ball 90mins long, that can't be fun! Someone tell RohrBot that this ain't Gabun!
User avatar
cchinukw
Eaglet
Eaglet
Posts: 37434
Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 1:27 pm
Location: Displaced Naija. Don't bother
Re: Random thoughts on Nigeria vs Brazil...

Post by cchinukw »

Nothing to see. Nothing to inspire. Once you've seen a Rohr coached SE once, you've seen it all.
MAGA - Make Arsenal Great Again.

Mind that father made collection of Scifi and fantasy stories
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Mind-That-Father-Made/dp/1907652051
User avatar
Damunk
Flying Eagle
Flying Eagle
Posts: 52782
Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 5:57 pm
Location: UK
Re: Random thoughts on Nigeria vs Brazil...

Post by Damunk »

gochino wrote:
Eaglezbeak wrote:
txj wrote:1. First, a creditable result against one of the powers of world football.

2. Overall a very impressive defensive organization. But a bit strange watching a tournament-style defensive performance in an international friendly.

https://africanfutbol.blogspot.com/2019 ... razil.html
Agreed but Nigeria needed to work on that side of their game especially after losing to Argentina and Algeria (both 2-1) in the last minutes of crucial games,you can’t Plan to re-enact such scenarios but today they didn’t buckle against a Brazil team that had to redeem themselves after recent performances so it was a worth while exercise although not to pretty to watch!
Dude, we lost because we could not hold on to the ball and control the game, we lost because we could not keep possession and kept throwing it away! When you do that in tournaments, you get punished!
I think the greater problem vs Brazil (and probably Argentina in the WC) was not being able to get hold of the ball in the first place.
Of course, when you do get the ball, you have to look after it, but short of having a pass accuracy in the high 80s, you will always be chasing the ball with the phenomenally skilful Brazilians.

I think we are in denial of the obvious specialty of the south American teams: technical brilliance. They keep ball, full stop. We have to respect that
Our strengths are speed, strength and a fairly decent dose of skill. That's what we have to play to...and that is exactly what the Brazilians openly said they respect and why they played us.

Look at the possession stats of the SE games vs non-South American teams.
U will find that your assertions that we can't retain the ball do not stand up to scrutiny. Many games we have won with far less possession whilst we have also lost games when we've had greater possession - like vs Algeria, Madagascar and the Czech Republic. By the way, Algeria just beat Colombia 3-0 with only 42% possession.
So its not a B&W issue like you people seem to be painting it.

The more likely explanation is that it is strategic depending on the factors at play on a match-by-match basis. There just might be a method to the madness. :idea:
Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't.

For instance, I am not sure I'd want to get drawn into a possession game with the Brazilians or the Argentinians. Let's be perfectly honest, they are so much better at it.
There's more than a fair chance we'd get sucked in, dragged out of shape and bingo! Goal.

Isn't that what happened v Argentina? Wasn't this place full of angry posts from our resident CE experts demanding to know why we didn't shore up the defence towards game end instead of pushing forward? :idea:

But the fashionable thing is to assume Rohr is "too old" and "clueless" and that we are better analysts and see things much more clearly than he does.
Tbh, that doesn't sound very convincing to me. :lol:
"Ole kuku ni gbogbo wọn "

Post Reply