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 Post subject: Re: Eze Picks England
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 9:38 am 
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Damunk,

One can identify as a Nigerian along as British. I've mentioned this a number of times that because one decides to play for England doesn't mean they have no love for Nigeria or that they don't feel Nigerian. There are many other ways to contribute to Nigeria's development than simply playing for the national team. However at the end of the day, it is one thing to identify with i.e Nigerian music, culture and the other to truly "feel" it (relating with the psyche and mentality). Most of these kids can identify with Nigeria but feel British, which is naturally to be expected. There is a reason why at the end of the day, 99% of these players prefer the country they were born and raised over Nigeria. That being said, as you say I don't think it's a straightforward choice for them.

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 Post subject: Re: Eze Picks England
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:48 am 
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Zelex wrote:
Damunk,

One can identify as a Nigerian along as British. I've mentioned this a number of times that because one decides to play for England doesn't mean they have no love for Nigeria or that they don't feel Nigerian. There are many other ways to contribute to Nigeria's development than simply playing for the national team. However at the end of the day, it is one thing to identify with i.e Nigerian music, culture and the other to truly "feel" it (relating with the psyche and mentality). Most of these kids can identify with Nigeria but feel British, which is naturally to be expected. There is a reason why at the end of the day, 99% of these players prefer the country they were born and raised over Nigeria. That being said, as you say I don't think it's a straightforward choice for them.
Zelex, I think 'feeling British' means different things to different people.
Even feeling 'Nigerian', same thing.
I can imagine asking my daughter or nephews and nieces that question and getting a reply like "I don't know. What does that even mean?".
I think there are very cogent points about the convenience of claiming everything claimable as a Briton. But whether that directly translates to "feeling British'' is another question.

Its hard to explain in a sense.
Which part of the planet are you based?

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 Post subject: Re: Eze Picks England
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 11:53 am 
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Zelex wrote:
Damunk,

One can identify as a Nigerian along as British. I've mentioned this a number of times that because one decides to play for England doesn't mean they have no love for Nigeria or that they don't feel Nigerian. There are many other ways to contribute to Nigeria's development than simply playing for the national team. However at the end of the day, it is one thing to identify with i.e Nigerian music, culture and the other to truly "feel" it (relating with the psyche and mentality). Most of these kids can identify with Nigeria but feel British, which is naturally to be expected. There is a reason why at the end of the day, 99% of these players prefer the country they were born and raised over Nigeria. That being said, as you say I don't think it's a straightforward choice for them.


Completely agree with this. Desailly played for France but anyone here think he is not a proud Ghanaian? Patrick Vieri too for Senegal? There is no reason to think that because the Abraham’s, Tomori’s, Eze’s and Udokhai’s of the world are not passionate of our country and people just because they want to play for the country they have called home all their lives


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 Post subject: Re: Eze Picks England
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 12:38 pm 
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Damunk's reply to Enugu said most of what I wanted to say. Nigerians born in the UK tend to relate to England a lot differently to those born in America. In fact, my unscientific opinion is that the majority of those Nigerians enjoy when England lose. For starters, very few black people born in the UK "feel" English. They would either call themselves Nigerian or British.

The football thing is on another level. I remember when Brazil knocked out England in the WC in 2002, I usually celebrate such results quietly, worried about what neighbours would think. But some black kids in my neighbourhood celebrated noisily. The difficulties for black people in identifying with England are explained here:
https://www.naijiant.com/sports/russia- ... d-to-lose/

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 Post subject: Re: Eze Picks England
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 1:49 pm 
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Cic & Damunk,

I will be convinced when a player, who is clearly sought by England, chooses to play for Nigeria because of the identity that you mention. So far, we have had two players, one has clearly chosen England and the other is hedging. What we've got so far are those that England had not pursued seriously at the senior level. I wonder what explains all that.

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 Post subject: Re: Eze Picks England
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 2:03 pm 
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Enugu II wrote:
Cic & Damunk,

I will be convinced when a player, who is clearly sought by England, chooses to play for Nigeria because of the identity that you mention. So far, we have had two players, one has clearly chosen England and the other is hedging. What we've got so far are those that England had not pursued seriously at the senior level. I wonder what explains all that.
Like I suggested Enugu II, that footballing decision is slightly different and is about career, not identity.
This is what we are trying to make clear. For those that live in the UK its a no-brainer.
I guess for you guys in North America, it hard to understand considering your experience. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Eze Picks England
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 2:39 pm 
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Damunk wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
Cic & Damunk,

I will be convinced when a player, who is clearly sought by England, chooses to play for Nigeria because of the identity that you mention. So far, we have had two players, one has clearly chosen England and the other is hedging. What we've got so far are those that England had not pursued seriously at the senior level. I wonder what explains all that.
Like I suggested Enugu II, that footballing decision is slightly different and is about career, not identity.
This is what we are trying to make clear. For those that live in the UK its a no-brainer.
I guess for you guys in North America, it hard to understand considering your experience. :D

Damunk,

Is playing for the SE a bad career choice? The way l see it playing for both will be good and Nigeria may even be better in several cases for certain layers where opportunities for appearances for England would be much lower. Sure, if one of these guys was the caliber of Raheem Sterling then I can see why England would make sense if this was just about career. I believe that while career is important so also is identity and comfort ability. These guys should not be seen as first generation immigrants. They are not even in their culture and networks. To be clear I speak of immigrant populations in most countries.

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 Post subject: Re: Eze Picks England
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 2:51 pm 
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EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote:
https://owngoalnigeria.com/2019/10/25/exclusive-qpr-ebere-eze-ask-for-more-time-before-committing-his-future-to-nigeria-after-talks-with-rohr/

Told ROHR chill for a while but wil honour England's U21 call next month for a competitive game.
Can wenow move Eze issues to world football? :laugh: Opari!


Eze and his decision on whether or not to play for Nigeria, is relevant to Nigerian football and it will stay in Eagles Nest.


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 Post subject: Re: Eze Picks England
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 3:05 pm 
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aruako1 wrote:
EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote:
https://owngoalnigeria.com/2019/10/25/exclusive-qpr-ebere-eze-ask-for-more-time-before-committing-his-future-to-nigeria-after-talks-with-rohr/

Told ROHR chill for a while but wil honour England's U21 call next month for a competitive game.
Can wenow move Eze issues to world football? :laugh: Opari!


Eze and his decision on whether or not to play for Nigeria, is relevant to Nigerian football and it will stay in Eagles Nest.


You dey mind am?

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 Post subject: Re: Eze Picks England
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 3:07 pm 
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cic old boy wrote:
Damunk's reply to Enugu said most of what I wanted to say. Nigerians born in the UK tend to relate to England a lot differently to those born in America. In fact, my unscientific opinion is that the majority of those Nigerians enjoy when England lose. For starters, very few black people born in the UK "feel" English. They would either call themselves Nigerian or British.

The football thing is on another level. I remember when Brazil knocked out England in the WC in 2002, I usually celebrate such results quietly, worried about what neighbours would think. But some black kids in my neighbourhood celebrated noisily. The difficulties for black people in identifying with England are explained here:
https://www.naijiant.com/sports/russia- ... d-to-lose/


I played for a while with several Naija Brits and this is 100% true. They are probably more patriotic than the likes of Kongi and Fabio. Some of them were practically begging me to get connections to the NBBF, unfortunately I could not help.

I have a feeling Eze will play for us. Anybody that doesn't like it can go and remove the jersey from his body when he wins his first cap!

The cockney wave is here to stay!!! :clap: :clap: :clap: :clap:

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 Post subject: Re: Eze Picks England
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 3:40 pm 
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Enugu II wrote:
Cic & Damunk,

I will be convinced when a player, who is clearly sought by England, chooses to play for Nigeria because of the identity that you mention. So far, we have had two players, one has clearly chosen England and the other is hedging. What we've got so far are those that England had not pursued seriously at the senior level. I wonder what explains all that.

My brother, playing for England boosts a player's profile. It adds 0s to your next boot deal.

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 Post subject: Re: Eze Picks England
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 4:12 pm 
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Damunk wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
I am more surprised by many CE members who erroneously believe that Nigeria has a good chance getting one of these boys when England is also interested. Doing so will be unusual and a major coup. While parents of these boys have a high identity with Nigeria, the boys themselves are more likely to have a high identity with England. That is a social logic. Liking Nigerian music is one thing but these are several other more viable measures of identity including friendships, location of familiarity, etc. None of these decisions is surprising to be honest. If they had chosen Nigeria over a genuine England interest then that will be the SURPRISE.
Prof, I think this is where you and many others are making assumptions. Probably because you are based in North America where the dynamic is very different.

The UK is pretty unique, maybe because we are a small island.
We are only 6 hrs away from Nigeria and in the same time zone.
We are many here and concentrated in clusters, especially London and the big cities.
Peckham in south east London for instance is known as 'mini Lagos'. Other areas like Plumstead and Thamesmead have huge numbers of Nigerian families.
Our churches congest traffic in parts of London on Sunday mornings.

But above all else, pop culture is having a powerful influence on the Nigerian identity and dare I say British society on the whole. Music, film, fashion, food and even language. Nigerian kids born in the UK are now very fluid with their identity. Trust me, I have grown kids, nephews and nieces. Plus I'm dealing with young adults all the time in the course of my work.
In one generation I have seen a clear difference in attitude towards Nigeria. In the last 15-20 years alone I have seen how the very strong Caribbean (Jamaican) culture has slowly ceded ground to African (Nigerian) culture.

Back then I often wondered how and why British-born Jamaican kids that had never been home would clearly identify with Jamaica before they would Britain. It was the norm. It is clearly happening to Nigerian kids too. Yes, they (black kids) are British, but there is something about Britain (or maybe England) that doesn't quite fully 'connect' with them. So when there is a valid alternative identity, they wear it with pride. I grew up as a kid in this country pretending to be Jamaican. Not British or English. Jamaican. That's what black boys did back in the day. Its all changed for Africans now. Its "so cool to be different (African) now", according to my daughter. In short, 'Daz How Star Do'. 8-)

Of course it is not universally so and there are families in which the Nigerian parents are going thru their own identity crisis and have no pride in their own roots for whatever reason. So they pass on their insecurities to their kids. But by and large, many many of our kids here are happy in both skins, so allegiance to one is NOT an easy choice as you suggest. It is more a career choice for most of them (footballers). Emotionally, many are genuinely torn.

I laugh when I read comments like "he is just playing us", or "he never wanted to play for us in the first place", or "He is English, not Nigerian" all followed by insults and general abuse. Its not that simple. People have to realise that everyone needs an identity. For black kids in the UK, even in 2019, 'Britain' or 'England' isn't the ideal identity they are looking for. We can go into reasons for that another time. You can even see here on CE how many if not most Nigerians resident here in the UK can be very anti-British. There's a reason.

It is also why the 'Cricket Test' debate came about in the 90s.

Quote:
The cricket test, also known as the Tebbit test, was a controversial phrase coined in April 1990 by the British Conservative politician Norman Tebbit in reference to the perceived lack of loyalty to the England cricket team among South Asian and Caribbean immigrants and their children. Tebbit suggested that those immigrants who support their native countries rather than England at the sport of cricket are not significantly integrated into the United Kingdom.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cricket_test


The American experience seems very different. My observation is that Africans seem quick and very happy to take on the American identity. You can again see it reflected here on CE and I guess it says a lot about the nature of American society that somehow, despite all its flaws, makes people feel a part of it. :thumb:


Spot on!

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 Post subject: Re: Eze Picks England
PostPosted: Sat Oct 26, 2019 7:37 pm 
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So I've looked at Eze's possibilities with England

He is eligible to play for England in the U21 Euro championships in June 2021 which they will likely qualify for

England did not make the Olympics.

So if Eze goes with England U21 NOW his schedule will be as follows

1. Play U21 Euro qualifiers in 2019-2020
2. Play U21 Euro championships summer of 2021

He will then have to hope he can somehow make the England full team for 2022 World Cup

If he chooses Nigeria it looks better to me

1. Play ANC qualifiers 2019-2020
2. Play WCQ 2020-2022
3. Play ANC in summer of 2021

He will also be a shoe in for World cup 2022 as long as Nigeria qualifies.

He also has the possibility of playing olympic soccer with Nigeria, should we qualify next month.

This guy should look hard at this and make up his mind. If he eventually wants to chose Nigeria, why bother with U21 Euro when you can be playing ANC, and possibly Olympics.

It would be a stupid decision IMO for him to choose playing youth football with England to miss ANC and possible olympics, and try and cement his place in WC 2022.

Is U21 Euro really worth it ?

I have a feeling that the English FA are trying to influence him behind the scenes.

Like someone said I can understand if this is a Raheem Sterling, but England can easily do without this guy, and guys like Lookman, and even Abraham. There is some serious bitterness going on.


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 Post subject: Re: Eze Picks England
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 8:40 pm 
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Enugu II wrote:
Cic & Damunk,

I will be convinced when a player, who is clearly sought by England, chooses to play for Nigeria because of the identity that you mention. So far, we have had two players, one has clearly chosen England and the other is hedging. What we've got so far are those that England had not pursued seriously at the senior level. I wonder what explains all that.


Ajax defender Sergiño Dest chooses to play for USA over Netherlands

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... lands-ajax

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 Post subject: Re: Eze Picks England
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 9:01 pm 
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The YeyeMan wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
Cic & Damunk,

I will be convinced when a player, who is clearly sought by England, chooses to play for Nigeria because of the identity that you mention. So far, we have had two players, one has clearly chosen England and the other is hedging. What we've got so far are those that England had not pursued seriously at the senior level. I wonder what explains all that.


Ajax defender Sergiño Dest chooses to play for USA over Netherlands

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... lands-ajax
He chose the USA but was born and grew up in The Netherlands.

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 Post subject: Re: Eze Picks England
PostPosted: Mon Oct 28, 2019 10:17 pm 
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Damunk wrote:
The YeyeMan wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
Cic & Damunk,

I will be convinced when a player, who is clearly sought by England, chooses to play for Nigeria because of the identity that you mention. So far, we have had two players, one has clearly chosen England and the other is hedging. What we've got so far are those that England had not pursued seriously at the senior level. I wonder what explains all that.


Ajax defender Sergiño Dest chooses to play for USA over Netherlands

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... lands-ajax
He chose the USA but was born and grew up in The Netherlands.

EII will be shocked.

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 Post subject: Re: Eze Picks England
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:37 pm 
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cic old boy wrote:
Damunk's reply to Enugu said most of what I wanted to say. Nigerians born in the UK tend to relate to England a lot differently to those born in America. In fact, my unscientific opinion is that the majority of those Nigerians enjoy when England lose. For starters, very few black people born in the UK "feel" English. They would either call themselves Nigerian or British.

The football thing is on another level. I remember when Brazil knocked out England in the WC in 2002, I usually celebrate such results quietly, worried about what neighbours would think. But some black kids in my neighbourhood celebrated noisily. The difficulties for black people in identifying with England are explained here:
https://www.naijiant.com/sports/russia- ... d-to-lose/

You’re right, if you meet most black of African/Caribbean decent in Europe and ask them where they are from they quickly reply Portugal,France,Belgium or wherever they have settled in Europe but here in England that will not necessarily be the answer!

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 Post subject: Re: Eze Picks England
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:04 pm 
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Eaglezbeak wrote:
cic old boy wrote:
Damunk's reply to Enugu said most of what I wanted to say. Nigerians born in the UK tend to relate to England a lot differently to those born in America. In fact, my unscientific opinion is that the majority of those Nigerians enjoy when England lose. For starters, very few black people born in the UK "feel" English. They would either call themselves Nigerian or British.

The football thing is on another level. I remember when Brazil knocked out England in the WC in 2002, I usually celebrate such results quietly, worried about what neighbours would think. But some black kids in my neighbourhood celebrated noisily. The difficulties for black people in identifying with England are explained here:
https://www.naijiant.com/sports/russia- ... d-to-lose/

You’re right, if you meet most black of African/Caribbean decent in Europe and ask them where they are from they quickly reply Portugal,France,Belgium or wherever they have settled in Europe but here in England that will not necessarily be the answer!
For most blacks in the UK, 'Britishness' is a convenience, not an identity.
'Englishness' as CIC said is even more unrelatable. Thinking about it, I don't ever recall hearing a black guy identify himself as 'English'.

It would be fascinating to look into why that is.

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 Post subject: Re: Eze Picks England
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 3:40 pm 
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So this thread remained here, but a SE player was on the bench vs Chelsea and it was moved to world forum...some of una dem really swear for una

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 Post subject: Re: Eze Picks England
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:16 pm 
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The YeyeMan wrote:
Damunk wrote:
The YeyeMan wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
Cic & Damunk,

I will be convinced when a player, who is clearly sought by England, chooses to play for Nigeria because of the identity that you mention. So far, we have had two players, one has clearly chosen England and the other is hedging. What we've got so far are those that England had not pursued seriously at the senior level. I wonder what explains all that.


Ajax defender Sergiño Dest chooses to play for USA over Netherlands

https://www.theguardian.com/football/20 ... lands-ajax
He chose the USA but was born and grew up in The Netherlands.

EII will be shocked.


On the contrary, I am not shocked. I was hoping to be but the story did not bring the shock that I expected. You may have missed these parts of the story:

Quote:
After watching tape of Dest in action for the club’s prestigious youth academy, Van den Bergh saw a player of serious potential. Dest represented the Netherlands at youth level in his early teens, but had seemingly fallen off the national radar since, something that has become the US’s gain.


Quote:
“Of course, it was a tough decision for me when the Dutch men’s national team showed their interest, but I have built up a very good feeling with Team USA over the last couple of years and I strongly believe in the plans and potential of US Soccer,” Dest said Monday.


The points to look out for is the relationships, the friendships that these guys have built and their love for international football. What I would have thought that you would take from the story is the fact that Nigeria should catch these guys when their 'home' NT isn't much interested as we did with Iwobi and Vic Moses and it turned out great for us. The same appears clearly to be Dest's case in the story above where the Dutch lacked interest after a while and USA brought him into the fold. When he blossomed under the USA, the Dutch tried to get back in and he was not interested.

I wish you guys are right, somewhat, which will give the SE equal opportunity to snag a great player who has attracted interest from his home NT but I will believe it when it happens. Maybe we will get lucky with players who may have visited Nigeria a lot and developed important relationships in Nigeria or one that was somewhat isolated and siloed in a relationship with "Nigeria" while overseas. Just maybe because that social impact matters.

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 Post subject: Re: Eze Picks England
PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 6:42 pm 
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Damunk wrote:
Eaglezbeak wrote:
cic old boy wrote:
Damunk's reply to Enugu said most of what I wanted to say. Nigerians born in the UK tend to relate to England a lot differently to those born in America. In fact, my unscientific opinion is that the majority of those Nigerians enjoy when England lose. For starters, very few black people born in the UK "feel" English. They would either call themselves Nigerian or British.

The football thing is on another level. I remember when Brazil knocked out England in the WC in 2002, I usually celebrate such results quietly, worried about what neighbours would think. But some black kids in my neighbourhood celebrated noisily. The difficulties for black people in identifying with England are explained here:
https://www.naijiant.com/sports/russia- ... d-to-lose/

You’re right, if you meet most black of African/Caribbean decent in Europe and ask them where they are from they quickly reply Portugal,France,Belgium or wherever they have settled in Europe but here in England that will not necessarily be the answer!
For most blacks in the UK, 'Britishness' is a convenience, not an identity.
'Englishness' as CIC said is even more unrelatable. Thinking about it, I don't ever recall hearing a black guy identify himself as 'English'.

It would be fascinating to look into why that is.


You’re spitting some real fire. :thumbs:

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 Post subject: Re: Eze Picks England
PostPosted: Tue Nov 05, 2019 4:45 pm 
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Enugu II wrote:
Benedict Iroha wrote:
All these British born Nigerians who think representing England is like climbing Mount Everest. What they don't realize is that England they use them and dump them. Iwobi and Moses have benefited playing in World Cups and are constant starters for Naija.

Nigeria need to stop relying on all these foreign born players, I haven't seen anyone actually shine for Nigeria. Stop begging and create your own players.


Benedict Iroha,

It cuts both ways. You remember Sunday Stephen, Efan Ekoku, Kayode Odejayi, and Steven Ukoh? They were all foreign-born and bred who took the chance playing for Nigeria. How many appearances did each of them make? Were they used and dumped by us?

Abi ..


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 Post subject: Re: Eze Picks England
PostPosted: Fri Nov 08, 2019 5:27 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 7:40 pm
Posts: 14029
Eze called up to England U21 squad.


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