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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 8:49 pm 
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gapped wrote:
Totally agree with this writers position and the article. This team to me is the worst coached Nigeria under 17 team in modern memory. As much as folks will like to disagree, soon, this team will be exposed as a team that is not really a team, that lacks cohesive approach to playing as a team, tactically inept, technically underserved and underperforming, and above all, relies more on individual brilliance to succeed. Soon, a team will figure out how to shut down the aces and then what? Creativity is not really there and no discernable pattern of play can be deduced from the disjointed game approach that they have exhibited.

My son played and won both state and regional championships in the US under 17, and I can tell you that the games I have seen his team play in that level is far superior to what I'm seeing in a national team level and that to me is disappointing and unacceptable.

And yet the full US national U17 team was played off the park by a Senegalese team that was lucky to ‘qualify’ from Africa... :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

This Eaglets team has several shortcomings (and not surprisingly for me, yet to see any team in this youth competition that does not - including Brazil that would not have qualified if Brazil did not replace Peru as hosts), but abegi let’s try to resist the easy temptation of seating in the cosy comfort of our sofas and over-analyze. Despite shortcomings, the team has done everything it needed to do thus far to overcome adversity and win games. That is the sign of both a solid resilient group of youngsters and good coaching. Good luck to them.
>

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:01 pm 
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Solace Chukwu’s article for me is 100% on point and captures my feeling after watching the Ecuador game. If you calm down and check your emotion at the door you will realize that he’s made many good points. I love to win as much as the next guy but ultimately the question is having won this tournament more than any other country, how can we fine tune our strategy to focus more on opening doors for our best skilled kids - regardless of whether we win or not - as in the long term, it strengthens our Super Eagles ... which should be the bottom line goal. The ultimate goal is senior level World Cup. We’ve been there and done that at the lower levels. Keep your eye on the bigger picture is what he’s saying and I wholeheartedly agree with Mr. Solace Chukwu.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:04 pm 
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green4life wrote:
Solace Chukwu’s article for me is 100% on point and captures my feeling after watching the Ecuador game. If you calm down and check your emotion at the door you will realize that he’s made many good points. I love to win as much as the next guy but ultimately the question is having won this tournament more than any other country, how can we fine tune our strategy to focus more on opening doors for our best skilled kids - regardless of whether we win or not - as in the long term, it strengthens our Super Eagles ... which should be the bottom line goal. The ultimate goal is senior level World Cup. We’ve been there and done that at the lower levels. Keep your eye on the bigger picture is what he’s saying and I wholeheartedly agree with Mr. Solace Chukwu.



I have been saying this here for years. We are not training our young players properly. Within 5mins of watching, you can tell the difference...

Its not simply about the results, important as that is. Its also about the development of players...

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:10 pm 
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green4life wrote:
Solace Chukwu’s article for me is 100% on point and captures my feeling after watching the Ecuador game. If you calm down and check your emotion at the door you will realize that he’s made many good points. I love to win as much as the next guy but ultimately the question is having won this tournament more than any other country, how can we fine tune our strategy to focus more on opening doors for our best skilled kids - regardless of whether we win or not - as in the long term, it strengthens our Super Eagles ... which should be the bottom line goal. The ultimate goal is senior level World Cup. We’ve been there and done that at the lower levels. Keep your eye on the bigger picture is what he’s saying and I wholeheartedly agree with Mr. Solace Chukwu.

uh!!! you just dribbled yourself,, the goal of the u17 is to supply the SE , nothing more nothing less... these kids all have lots of time to be coached, so whatever rubbish tactics et al soludo chkwu is ranting about makes no sense and will never ever apply to these players....at the youth level, players are picked for potentials and not no pathetic coaching or team play from coaches coaching u17 football....

this tournament is meant to supply the SE with potential ballers and of late we really haven't had lots of players from the u17/20 coming through within the last 10 years //one or two may pop up and later on we have jokers bashing them left and right, Kele, Success etc are perfect examples. teams coached by the late Temi , haruna's group had the so called team play etc.... that set was one of the least to stack up or supply the SE... the torey of that soluce yabbing them of late come backs is trash...bottom line it's actually a good thing , which gives them the mental strength of always fighting until the end.... something the current SE's manager has zero idea about

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:19 pm 
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Bigpokey24 wrote:
green4life wrote:
Solace Chukwu’s article for me is 100% on point and captures my feeling after watching the Ecuador game. If you calm down and check your emotion at the door you will realize that he’s made many good points. I love to win as much as the next guy but ultimately the question is having won this tournament more than any other country, how can we fine tune our strategy to focus more on opening doors for our best skilled kids - regardless of whether we win or not - as in the long term, it strengthens our Super Eagles ... which should be the bottom line goal. The ultimate goal is senior level World Cup. We’ve been there and done that at the lower levels. Keep your eye on the bigger picture is what he’s saying and I wholeheartedly agree with Mr. Solace Chukwu.

uh!!! you just dribbled yourself,, the goal of the u17 is to supply the SE , nothing more nothing less... these kids all have lots of time to be coached, so whatever rubbish tactics et al soludo chkwu is ranting about makes no sense and will never ever apply to these players....at the youth level, players are picked for potentials and not no pathetic coaching or team play from coaches coaching u17 football....

this tournament is meant to supply the SE with potential ballers and of late we really haven't had lots of players from the u17/20 coming through within the last 10 years //one or two may pop up and later on we have jokers bashing them left and right, Kele, Success etc are perfect examples. teams coached by the late Temi , haruna's group had the so called team play etc.... that set was one of the least to stack up or supply the SE... the torey of that soluce yabbing them of late come backs is trash...bottom line it's actually a good thing , which gives them the mental strength of always fighting until the end.... something the current SE's manager has zero idea about


No, you retard!

The tournament is meant to help develop talent. The better developed they are, the greater their chances of transitioning to higher levels; the better their chances of a professional contract; the greater the quality of players supplied to the SE.

Ironically, the highlighted is exactly the point being made by solace :rotf:

What an absolute moron!

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We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


Last edited by txj on Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:25 pm 
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Eaglezbeak wrote:
Youth football is about development right?So I'm supposed to be listen to someone complaining that they are not playing like Liverpool?Nigeria have won more U17 World Cups than teams that win the actual World Cup why?

:D

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 9:56 pm 
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Bigpokey24 wrote:
green4life wrote:
Solace Chukwu’s article for me is 100% on point and captures my feeling after watching the Ecuador game. If you calm down and check your emotion at the door you will realize that he’s made many good points. I love to win as much as the next guy but ultimately the question is having won this tournament more than any other country, how can we fine tune our strategy to focus more on opening doors for our best skilled kids - regardless of whether we win or not - as in the long term, it strengthens our Super Eagles ... which should be the bottom line goal. The ultimate goal is senior level World Cup. We’ve been there and done that at the lower levels. Keep your eye on the bigger picture is what he’s saying and I wholeheartedly agree with Mr. Solace Chukwu.

uh!!! you just dribbled yourself,, the goal of the u17 is to supply the SE , nothing more nothing less... these kids all have lots of time to be coached, so whatever rubbish tactics et al soludo chkwu is ranting about makes no sense and will never ever apply to these players....at the youth level, players are picked for potentials and not no pathetic coaching or team play from coaches coaching u17 football....

this tournament is meant to supply the SE with potential ballers and of late we really haven't had lots of players from the u17/20 coming through within the last 10 years //one or two may pop up and later on we have jokers bashing them left and right, Kele, Success etc are perfect examples. teams coached by the late Temi , haruna's group had the so called team play etc.... that set was one of the least to stack up or supply the SE... the torey of that soluce yabbing them of late come backs is trash...bottom line it's actually a good thing , which gives them the mental strength of always fighting until the end.... something the current SE's manager has zero idea about

Bro your making their point for them...

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 01, 2019 10:33 pm 
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gapped wrote:
Totally agree with this writers position and the article. This team to me is the worst coached Nigeria under 17 team in modern memory. As much as folks will like to disagree, soon, this team will be exposed as a team that is not really a team, that lacks cohesive approach to playing as a team, tactically inept, technically underserved and underperforming, and above all, relies more on individual brilliance to succeed. Soon, a team will figure out how to shut down the aces and then what? Creativity is not really there and no discernable pattern of play can be deduced from the disjointed game approach that they have exhibited.

My son played and won both state and regional championships in the US under 17, and I can tell you that the games I have seen his team play in that level is far superior to what I'm seeing in a national team level and that to me is disappointing and unacceptable.


Nonsense; so you want us to believe that your son is more skilled than at least the worse players we currently have in Brazil because your son purportedly plays recreational soccer in some efen backwater country-side US county yet the best of the best from US paraded in Brazil got trashed left and right by teams who couldn’t even hang with flying eagles.

As for thread starter; his is but a view point it’s neither here nor there. There is nothing absolute in football but at developmental level one has to have running abilities before you can craw. I repeat, you must run then craw at this stage. Tiki taca is the easiest football approach ever and we have observed teams torn to shreds in the 60/70 minutes of the game by speedy more physical teams like Nigeria and Senegal. That’s the dynamics at play on this level and that’s what Garba learned and adapted his teams to. That’s is not to say that speed is all you need and his teams have done nothing to invite such insinuations. If anything they have been forced to pocket their speed in the two games they played because they went behind in both games hence had to dig deep - ropa dopa Style to fight their way back. In fact the only opportunity they have had thus far to run on their opponents was in last 5 minutes of the games. So what the ell are you talking about. We saw Netherlands try to play adult tiki yaks against Senegal yesterday - please tell me what happened in second half; the were begging for last whistle.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:15 am 
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green4life wrote:
Solace Chukwu’s article for me is 100% on point and captures my feeling after watching the Ecuador game. If you calm down and check your emotion at the door you will realize that he’s made many good points. I love to win as much as the next guy but ultimately the question is having won this tournament more than any other country, how can we fine tune our strategy to focus more on opening doors for our best skilled kids - regardless of whether we win or not - as in the long term, it strengthens our Super Eagles ... which should be the bottom line goal. The ultimate goal is senior level World Cup. We’ve been there and done that at the lower levels. Keep your eye on the bigger picture is what he’s saying and I wholeheartedly agree with Mr. Solace Chukwu.

Can you please remind us how many countries have done better than us in transitioning youth players into senior international players?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:18 am 
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theYemster wrote:
Eaglezbeak wrote:
Youth football is about development right?So I'm supposed to be listen to someone complaining that they are not playing like Liverpool?Nigeria have won more U17 World Cups than teams that win the actual World Cup why?

:D

:lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:51 am 
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Gotti wrote:
theYemster wrote:
Eaglezbeak wrote:
Youth football is about development right?So I'm supposed to be listen to someone complaining that they are not playing like Liverpool?Nigeria have won more U17 World Cups than teams that win the actual World Cup why?

:D

:lol: :lol: :lol:



:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
You are about to open a whole new can of worms or is that an old can of worms? :lol: :lol: :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 12:59 am 
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Gotti wrote:
theYemster wrote:
Eaglezbeak wrote:
Youth football is about development right?So I'm supposed to be listen to someone complaining that they are not playing like Liverpool?Nigeria have won more U17 World Cups than teams that win the actual World Cup why?

:D

:lol: :lol: :lol:

:rotf:

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 1:04 am 
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Gotti wrote:
green4life wrote:
Solace Chukwu’s article for me is 100% on point and captures my feeling after watching the Ecuador game. If you calm down and check your emotion at the door you will realize that he’s made many good points. I love to win as much as the next guy but ultimately the question is having won this tournament more than any other country, how can we fine tune our strategy to focus more on opening doors for our best skilled kids - regardless of whether we win or not - as in the long term, it strengthens our Super Eagles ... which should be the bottom line goal. The ultimate goal is senior level World Cup. We’ve been there and done that at the lower levels. Keep your eye on the bigger picture is what he’s saying and I wholeheartedly agree with Mr. Solace Chukwu.

Can you please remind us how many countries have done better than us in transitioning youth players into senior international players?


And how many have won more than us at this level?

And why limit it to senior international appearances; what about senior first team appearances which is often the basis for international call-ups?

In any case, the U17 tournament is much more valuable platform for developing players for Nigeria than any European or S. American country, as these countries have many more outlets. And that really is the point.

We are increasingly getting far too little for the level of dominance we have had, meaning there is quite a considerable amount not carrying over...

This is probably the only competition where winning is not everything. The issue here is how to develop our players properly so they can successfully transition to senior football and ultimately the SE.

This is why I find the reflex defensive reaction rather surprising...

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Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 2:46 am 
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txj wrote:
Gotti wrote:
Can you please remind us how many countries have done better than us in transitioning youth players into senior international players?

And how many have won more than us at this level?

And why limit it to senior international appearances; what about senior first team appearances which is often the basis for international call-ups?

In any case, the U17 tournament is much more valuable platform for developing players for Nigeria than any European or S. American country, as these countries have many more outlets. And that really is the point.

We are increasingly getting far too little for the level of dominance we have had, meaning there is quite a considerable amount not carrying over...

This is probably the only competition where winning is not everything. The issue here is how to develop our players properly so they can successfully transition to senior football and ultimately the SE.

This is why I find the reflex defensive reaction rather surprising...

If you have those statistics, please feel free to share...
I am reasonably confident that Nigeria will still come out near the tops.

I suspect however that you may be referring to "senior first team opportunities" in Oyibo leagues, but that would be deceptive since (in any walk of life), Nigerians/Africans have less of an opportunity in Oyibo-land that has little to do with ability or preparation. It has never been a straight-line for most Africans. Accordingly, Semi Ajayi (for example), who has the advantage of being UK-born, received several opportunities even after initial 'failures' until he finally came good. Nigerian-born youth players who performed even better than Semi obviously would not be afforded so many opportunities (most of them cannot even get a basic work permit to enable them pursue similar opportunities).

Nonetheless, of the 2015 Eaglets (for instance) just off the top of my head, Osimehn, Chukwueze, Orji Okonkwo (MLS/Italy), Kingsley Michael (Italy), John Enogela (Ukraine), Lukman Zakari (Tunisia, Latvia/Real Betis B), Funso Bamgboye (Hungary), Sunday Alimi (Galatasary B), John Lazarus, Udo Anumudu (Lobi Stars) have all enjoyed "senior first team opportunities". How many other of the nations in the same 2015 U17 WC could make a similar claim?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:36 am 
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Gotti wrote:
txj wrote:
Gotti wrote:
Can you please remind us how many countries have done better than us in transitioning youth players into senior international players?

And how many have won more than us at this level?

And why limit it to senior international appearances; what about senior first team appearances which is often the basis for international call-ups?

In any case, the U17 tournament is much more valuable platform for developing players for Nigeria than any European or S. American country, as these countries have many more outlets. And that really is the point.

We are increasingly getting far too little for the level of dominance we have had, meaning there is quite a considerable amount not carrying over...

This is probably the only competition where winning is not everything. The issue here is how to develop our players properly so they can successfully transition to senior football and ultimately the SE.

This is why I find the reflex defensive reaction rather surprising...

If you have those statistics, please feel free to share...
I am reasonably confident that Nigeria will still come out near the tops.

I suspect however that you may be referring to "senior first team opportunities" in Oyibo leagues, but that would be deceptive since (in any walk of life), Nigerians/Africans have less of an opportunity in Oyibo-land that has little to do with ability or preparation. It has never been a straight-line for most Africans. Accordingly, Semi Ajayi (for example), who has the advantage of being UK-born, received several opportunities even after initial 'failures' until he finally came good. Nigerian-born youth players who performed even better than Semi obviously would not be afforded so many opportunities (most of them cannot even get a basic work permit to enable them pursue similar opportunities).

Nonetheless, of the 2015 Eaglets (for instance) just off the top of my head, Osimehn, Chukwueze, Orji Okonkwo (MLS/Italy), Kingsley Michael (Italy), John Enogela (Ukraine), Lukman Zakari (Tunisia, Latvia/Real Betis B), Funso Bamgboye (Hungary), Sunday Alimi (Galatasary B), John Lazarus, Udo Anumudu (Lobi Stars) have all enjoyed "senior first team opportunities". How many other of the nations in the same 2015 U17 WC could make a similar claim?

The data running over several years show that most countries are at par. The only aberrations are Brazil, Mexico, and Costa Rica. You can see the entire technical report on this by googling Onwumechili researchgate.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 11:58 am 
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Enugu II wrote:
Gotti wrote:
txj wrote:
Gotti wrote:
Can you please remind us how many countries have done better than us in transitioning youth players into senior international players?

And how many have won more than us at this level?

And why limit it to senior international appearances; what about senior first team appearances which is often the basis for international call-ups?

In any case, the U17 tournament is much more valuable platform for developing players for Nigeria than any European or S. American country, as these countries have many more outlets. And that really is the point.

We are increasingly getting far too little for the level of dominance we have had, meaning there is quite a considerable amount not carrying over...

This is probably the only competition where winning is not everything. The issue here is how to develop our players properly so they can successfully transition to senior football and ultimately the SE.

This is why I find the reflex defensive reaction rather surprising...

If you have those statistics, please feel free to share...
I am reasonably confident that Nigeria will still come out near the tops.

I suspect however that you may be referring to "senior first team opportunities" in Oyibo leagues, but that would be deceptive since (in any walk of life), Nigerians/Africans have less of an opportunity in Oyibo-land that has little to do with ability or preparation. It has never been a straight-line for most Africans. Accordingly, Semi Ajayi (for example), who has the advantage of being UK-born, received several opportunities even after initial 'failures' until he finally came good. Nigerian-born youth players who performed even better than Semi obviously would not be afforded so many opportunities (most of them cannot even get a basic work permit to enable them pursue similar opportunities).

Nonetheless, of the 2015 Eaglets (for instance) just off the top of my head, Osimehn, Chukwueze, Orji Okonkwo (MLS/Italy), Kingsley Michael (Italy), John Enogela (Ukraine), Lukman Zakari (Tunisia, Latvia/Real Betis B), Funso Bamgboye (Hungary), Sunday Alimi (Galatasary B), John Lazarus, Udo Anumudu (Lobi Stars) have all enjoyed "senior first team opportunities". How many other of the nations in the same 2015 U17 WC could make a similar claim?

The data running over several years show that most countries are at par. The only aberrations are Brazil, Mexico, and Costa Rica. You can see the entire technical report on this by googling Onwumechili researchgate.
I was going to make reference to some of your research on the matter. :thumb:

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 8:49 pm 
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Enugu II wrote:
Gotti wrote:
txj wrote:
Gotti wrote:
Can you please remind us how many countries have done better than us in transitioning youth players into senior international players?

And how many have won more than us at this level?

And why limit it to senior international appearances; what about senior first team appearances which is often the basis for international call-ups?

In any case, the U17 tournament is much more valuable platform for developing players for Nigeria than any European or S. American country, as these countries have many more outlets. And that really is the point.

We are increasingly getting far too little for the level of dominance we have had, meaning there is quite a considerable amount not carrying over...

This is probably the only competition where winning is not everything. The issue here is how to develop our players properly so they can successfully transition to senior football and ultimately the SE.

This is why I find the reflex defensive reaction rather surprising...

If you have those statistics, please feel free to share...
I am reasonably confident that Nigeria will still come out near the tops.

I suspect however that you may be referring to "senior first team opportunities" in Oyibo leagues, but that would be deceptive since (in any walk of life), Nigerians/Africans have less of an opportunity in Oyibo-land that has little to do with ability or preparation. It has never been a straight-line for most Africans. Accordingly, Semi Ajayi (for example), who has the advantage of being UK-born, received several opportunities even after initial 'failures' until he finally came good. Nigerian-born youth players who performed even better than Semi obviously would not be afforded so many opportunities (most of them cannot even get a basic work permit to enable them pursue similar opportunities).

Nonetheless, of the 2015 Eaglets (for instance) just off the top of my head, Osimehn, Chukwueze, Orji Okonkwo (MLS/Italy), Kingsley Michael (Italy), John Enogela (Ukraine), Lukman Zakari (Tunisia, Latvia/Real Betis B), Funso Bamgboye (Hungary), Sunday Alimi (Galatasary B), John Lazarus, Udo Anumudu (Lobi Stars) have all enjoyed "senior first team opportunities". How many other of the nations in the same 2015 U17 WC could make a similar claim?

The data running over several years show that most countries are at par. The only aberrations are Brazil, Mexico, and Costa Rica. You can see the entire technical report on this by googling Onwumechili researchgate.



From that same year, the US actually has more than us, which would surprise many people. And everybody faces challenges of breaking thru at this level. It almost always comes down to quality starting out.

If you are dominating this level as we do, we should not be at par with most countries, but well above them


But the key point here is that many of these countries have other outlets for transitioning players through the club academy level to Europe and not necessarily thru the youth NTs.

While we also do so, the failure rate is quite high.

The key question is why?

IMO a lot of it has to do with the poor development of these players. Which in reality should not be a surprise as in almost every other walk of life, the standards in Nigeria have declined from what they used to be.

The reality is that the competition for youth team places in Europe is far stiffer than what it was 10-20yrs ago. And over this same period, our standards have declined, not improved...

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Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:16 pm 
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txj,

Actually, data show that teams that win at the U17 (Nigeria + others) do not win at the most senior level even when those winners at U17 level become available at the senior level. The point is that there is insignificant correlation between performance at U17 level and the senior levels. You have to account for maturity year after winning the U17 as well as several other variables. Development is not linear as per players used at the U17 by any country, not just Nigeria.

In fact, I would actually argue (as a hypothesis) that if we assume that Nigeria uses older players at the U17 level, by logic we should see a more linear occurrence for Nigeria in terms of players going from U17 to at least the U20 level. However, I have not tested this hypothesis. For other countries, I would argue that linearity will be far less because of what is known about uneven development going from the U17 upwards.

txj wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
Gotti wrote:
txj wrote:
Gotti wrote:
Can you please remind us how many countries have done better than us in transitioning youth players into senior international players?

And how many have won more than us at this level?

And why limit it to senior international appearances; what about senior first team appearances which is often the basis for international call-ups?

In any case, the U17 tournament is much more valuable platform for developing players for Nigeria than any European or S. American country, as these countries have many more outlets. And that really is the point.

We are increasingly getting far too little for the level of dominance we have had, meaning there is quite a considerable amount not carrying over...

This is probably the only competition where winning is not everything. The issue here is how to develop our players properly so they can successfully transition to senior football and ultimately the SE.

This is why I find the reflex defensive reaction rather surprising...

If you have those statistics, please feel free to share...
I am reasonably confident that Nigeria will still come out near the tops.

I suspect however that you may be referring to "senior first team opportunities" in Oyibo leagues, but that would be deceptive since (in any walk of life), Nigerians/Africans have less of an opportunity in Oyibo-land that has little to do with ability or preparation. It has never been a straight-line for most Africans. Accordingly, Semi Ajayi (for example), who has the advantage of being UK-born, received several opportunities even after initial 'failures' until he finally came good. Nigerian-born youth players who performed even better than Semi obviously would not be afforded so many opportunities (most of them cannot even get a basic work permit to enable them pursue similar opportunities).

Nonetheless, of the 2015 Eaglets (for instance) just off the top of my head, Osimehn, Chukwueze, Orji Okonkwo (MLS/Italy), Kingsley Michael (Italy), John Enogela (Ukraine), Lukman Zakari (Tunisia, Latvia/Real Betis B), Funso Bamgboye (Hungary), Sunday Alimi (Galatasary B), John Lazarus, Udo Anumudu (Lobi Stars) have all enjoyed "senior first team opportunities". How many other of the nations in the same 2015 U17 WC could make a similar claim?

The data running over several years show that most countries are at par. The only aberrations are Brazil, Mexico, and Costa Rica. You can see the entire technical report on this by googling Onwumechili researchgate.



From that same year, the US actually has more than us, which would surprise many people. And everybody faces challenges of breaking thru at this level. It almost always comes down to quality starting out.

If you are dominating this level as we do, we should not be at par with most countries, but well above them


But the key point here is that many of these countries have other outlets for transitioning players through the club academy level to Europe and not necessarily thru the youth NTs.

While we also do so, the failure rate is quite high.

The key question is why?

IMO a lot of it has to do with the poor development of these players. Which in reality should not be a surprise as in almost every other walk of life, the standards in Nigeria have declined from what they used to be.

The reality is that the competition for youth team places in Europe is far stiffer than what it was 10-20yrs ago. And over this same period, our standards have declined, not improved...

_________________
The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:23 pm 
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txj wrote:
From that same year, the US actually has more than us, which would surprise many people. And everybody faces challenges of breaking thru at this level. It almost always comes down to quality starting out.

If you are dominating this level as we do, we should not be at par with most countries, but well above them

But the key point here is that many of these countries have other outlets for transitioning players through the club academy level to Europe and not necessarily thru the youth NTs.

While we also do so, the failure rate is quite high.

The key question is why?

IMO a lot of it has to do with the poor development of these players. Which in reality should not be a surprise as in almost every other walk of life, the standards in Nigeria have declined from what they used to be.

The reality is that the competition for youth team places in Europe is far stiffer than what it was 10-20yrs ago. And over this same period, our standards have declined, not improved...

Abroad? Or at HOME in MLS?
If abroad, please feel free to share so that we can verify.

Meanwhile, the primary reason that you have a problem reconciling our dominance at this lowest level of global competitive youth football is that it starkly INVALIDATES your principal premise that Nigeria’s success at this level is based on the individual qualities of the players, when what EII (as well as other similar) data indicates is that Nigeria does not necessarily have better players (at least not to the extent to be so relatively dominant) but rather simply better TEAMS - with the totality being greater than the individual sums of the part.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 02, 2019 10:46 pm 
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txj wrote:
From that same year, the US actually has more than us, which would surprise many people. And everybody faces challenges of breaking thru at this level. It almost always comes down to quality starting out.

If you are dominating this level as we do, we should not be at par with most countries, but well above them

But the key point here is that many of these countries have other outlets for transitioning players through the club academy level to Europe and not necessarily thru the youth NTs.

While we also do so, the failure rate is quite high.

The key question is why?

IMO a lot of it has to do with the poor development of these players. Which in reality should not be a surprise as in almost every other walk of life, the standards in Nigeria have declined from what they used to be.

The reality is that the competition for youth team places in Europe is far stiffer than what it was 10-20yrs ago. And over this same period, our standards have declined, not improved...

First, there is a MINIMUM age requirement for EU countries...
Which means that our youth players are not even in the transition ‘contest’ until majority age.

Accordingly, reality is that youth NTs are the primary transitional route to Europe for our players....
Especially for players that are looking to transit to clubs in European countries that require a work permit.

Occasionally, there are agents (like Churchill Oliseh) or academies (like Abuja Football College) with connections to clubs in Europe, and even less occasionally a foreign academy would show up and sign up one or two youth players (such as Aspire did with Henry Onyekuru and Francis Uzoho), but those are episodic and arbitrary for the most part (in contrast, several Francophone countries have cultural and sporting programs with France which effectively much higher levels of relationships and contacts that makes it easier for players from Francophone African nations to emigrate to France - and yet it is doubtful that these nations have done much better than Nigeria has).

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:36 am 
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Gotti wrote:
txj wrote:
From that same year, the US actually has more than us, which would surprise many people. And everybody faces challenges of breaking thru at this level. It almost always comes down to quality starting out.

If you are dominating this level as we do, we should not be at par with most countries, but well above them

But the key point here is that many of these countries have other outlets for transitioning players through the club academy level to Europe and not necessarily thru the youth NTs.

While we also do so, the failure rate is quite high.

The key question is why?

IMO a lot of it has to do with the poor development of these players. Which in reality should not be a surprise as in almost every other walk of life, the standards in Nigeria have declined from what they used to be.

The reality is that the competition for youth team places in Europe is far stiffer than what it was 10-20yrs ago. And over this same period, our standards have declined, not improved...

First, there is a MINIMUM age requirement for EU countries...
Which means that our youth players are not even in the transition ‘contest’ until majority age.

Accordingly, reality is that youth NTs are the primary transitional route to Europe for our players....
Especially for players that are looking to transit to clubs in European countries that require a work permit.

Occasionally, there are agents (like Churchill Oliseh) or academies (like Abuja Football College) with connections to clubs in Europe, and even less occasionally a foreign academy would show up and sign up one or two youth players (such as Aspire did with Henry Onyekuru and Francis Uzoho), but those are episodic and arbitrary for the most part (in contrast, several Francophone countries have cultural and sporting programs with France which effectively much higher levels of relationships and contacts that makes it easier for players from Francophone African nations to emigrate to France - and yet it is doubtful that these nations have done much better than Nigeria has).



You've actually made my point! We largely only have the youth NTs for getting youth players to Europe. Others are able to send players straight from academies and at much higher levels, and that includes the US. And that is with the age limit in mind...

These countries have players breaking thru to Europe because their starting quality is higher. Not many teams are willing to take players on raw talent alone, esp if they are not special talents...

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Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:42 am 
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Gotti wrote:
txj wrote:
From that same year, the US actually has more than us, which would surprise many people. And everybody faces challenges of breaking thru at this level. It almost always comes down to quality starting out.

If you are dominating this level as we do, we should not be at par with most countries, but well above them

But the key point here is that many of these countries have other outlets for transitioning players through the club academy level to Europe and not necessarily thru the youth NTs.

While we also do so, the failure rate is quite high.

The key question is why?

IMO a lot of it has to do with the poor development of these players. Which in reality should not be a surprise as in almost every other walk of life, the standards in Nigeria have declined from what they used to be.

The reality is that the competition for youth team places in Europe is far stiffer than what it was 10-20yrs ago. And over this same period, our standards have declined, not improved...

Abroad? Or at HOME in MLS?
If abroad, please feel free to share so that we can verify.

Meanwhile, the primary reason that you have a problem reconciling our dominance at this lowest level of global competitive youth football is that it starkly INVALIDATES your principal premise that Nigeria’s success at this level is based on the individual qualities of the players, when what EII (as well as other similar) data indicates is that Nigeria does not necessarily have better players (at least not to the extent to be so relatively dominant) but rather simply better TEAMS - with the totality being greater than the individual sums of the part.


Both abroad and at home. You listed both for Nigerian players. And note that the MLS is a higher standard than our NPFL.

On your second point, at the U17 level, individual qualities generally predominate, esp physical advantage which is why we (African countries) do well at this level. We have won on the basis of superior individual qualities.

_________________
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 03, 2019 2:54 am 
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Enugu II wrote:
txj,

Actually, data show that teams that win at the U17 (Nigeria + others) do not win at the most senior level even when those winners at U17 level become available at the senior level. The point is that there is insignificant correlation between performance at U17 level and the senior levels. You have to account for maturity year after winning the U17 as well as several other variables. Development is not linear as per players used at the U17 by any country, not just Nigeria.

In fact, I would actually argue (as a hypothesis) that if we assume that Nigeria uses older players at the U17 level, by logic we should see a more linear occurrence for Nigeria in terms of players going from U17 to at least the U20 level. However, I have not tested this hypothesis. For other countries, I would argue that linearity will be far less because of what is known about uneven development going from the U17 upwards.

txj wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
Gotti wrote:
txj wrote:
Gotti wrote:
Can you please remind us how many countries have done better than us in transitioning youth players into senior international players?

And how many have won more than us at this level?

And why limit it to senior international appearances; what about senior first team appearances which is often the basis for international call-ups?

In any case, the U17 tournament is much more valuable platform for developing players for Nigeria than any European or S. American country, as these countries have many more outlets. And that really is the point.

We are increasingly getting far too little for the level of dominance we have had, meaning there is quite a considerable amount not carrying over...

This is probably the only competition where winning is not everything. The issue here is how to develop our players properly so they can successfully transition to senior football and ultimately the SE.

This is why I find the reflex defensive reaction rather surprising...

If you have those statistics, please feel free to share...
I am reasonably confident that Nigeria will still come out near the tops.

I suspect however that you may be referring to "senior first team opportunities" in Oyibo leagues, but that would be deceptive since (in any walk of life), Nigerians/Africans have less of an opportunity in Oyibo-land that has little to do with ability or preparation. It has never been a straight-line for most Africans. Accordingly, Semi Ajayi (for example), who has the advantage of being UK-born, received several opportunities even after initial 'failures' until he finally came good. Nigerian-born youth players who performed even better than Semi obviously would not be afforded so many opportunities (most of them cannot even get a basic work permit to enable them pursue similar opportunities).

Nonetheless, of the 2015 Eaglets (for instance) just off the top of my head, Osimehn, Chukwueze, Orji Okonkwo (MLS/Italy), Kingsley Michael (Italy), John Enogela (Ukraine), Lukman Zakari (Tunisia, Latvia/Real Betis B), Funso Bamgboye (Hungary), Sunday Alimi (Galatasary B), John Lazarus, Udo Anumudu (Lobi Stars) have all enjoyed "senior first team opportunities". How many other of the nations in the same 2015 U17 WC could make a similar claim?

The data running over several years show that most countries are at par. The only aberrations are Brazil, Mexico, and Costa Rica. You can see the entire technical report on this by googling Onwumechili researchgate.



From that same year, the US actually has more than us, which would surprise many people. And everybody faces challenges of breaking thru at this level. It almost always comes down to quality starting out.

If you are dominating this level as we do, we should not be at par with most countries, but well above them


But the key point here is that many of these countries have other outlets for transitioning players through the club academy level to Europe and not necessarily thru the youth NTs.

While we also do so, the failure rate is quite high.

The key question is why?

IMO a lot of it has to do with the poor development of these players. Which in reality should not be a surprise as in almost every other walk of life, the standards in Nigeria have declined from what they used to be.

The reality is that the competition for youth team places in Europe is far stiffer than what it was 10-20yrs ago. And over this same period, our standards have declined, not improved...



You are right in so far as we are limited to the U17 players from the FIFA tournaments. But other countries have much more avenues for developing U17 players. And are therefore producing quality young players in their senior teams and at higher numbers.

So equating Nigeria with other countries solely on the basis of the progression of U17 NT players misses the point...

And yes, devpt is not linear from this level which is why there are discussions about moving up to U19. In Europe for instance, they are more focused on the U19.

But the key point is the starting quality of the players, which is why fewer and fewer are breaking thru to contracts in Europe, even before we measure their subsequent progression...

_________________
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


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