Cybereagles

The Undisputed Number One Home for All Super Eagles Fans
It is currently Wed Apr 08, 2020 2:58 am

All times are UTC + 1 hour




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 38 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 6:31 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 5:59 pm
Posts: 48153
Location: Nembe Creek...Oil Exploration. If you call am bunkering na you sabi.
Gotti wrote:
Cellular wrote:
Prof., it has NEVER been about SKILL. Football is beyond being about skill.

It is about EDUCATION. Their football education is lacking. Not their skill.

Go talk to any recent Naijarian football immigrant... they will tell you that the professional tutoring they receive even on what the rudiments of their position calls for them to do is eye-opening.

No one will be teaching them any skill. Just how to play the game consistently at a professional level.

I had this discussion with Gotti on a different thread... basic requirement these days in Naijaria to land a very good lucrative job most times require a foreign Master's degree... looks like our National Team is trending that way as well.

One can say the test of their Naijarian football education is their ability to land a foreign contract.

Abegi leave me out of it... :lol:

Asked you if it meant all those Nigerian coaches who were trained and/or played abroad checked their "education" at Murtala Muhammed Airport (perhaps quarantined) upon their return, and still waiting for a substantive response while you sought refuge in a series of Strawman Arguments. LMAO!

PS: Btw, if the likes of Hope Akpan, Etuhu, Sone Aluko, etc., not to mention all those EPL players I see every week who do not seem to know where to stand on corner-kicks or to cover for an overlapping full-back are "educated", then getting a foreign contract is NO indicia of a football education. SMH

Anyway, like I said...
Have it Hoss and leave me out of it. Let's just agree to disagree.


Chief Gotti, unfortunately, many do.

Nna, I have had people tell me, "better drop this your 'American' ways" as in wanting things done properly or even having a modicum of professionalism.

Naijarian players have skill. I have never disputed it. The same problem Naijaria faces is what inner-city athletes face in America. Lack of proper tutoring (coaching). It is what it is. The days our athleticism compensates for our lack of proper football education are long gone. It is why whenever we are in trouble of qualifying for any 'Youth' tourney we resort to inviting foreign-based pros.

The NFF should take a critical look at the people who coach these players.

And yes, I think our ex-internationals who got the best overseas tutoring and coaching are our best chance.

BTW, your example of Etuhu, Akpan and Aluko is rather funny. Those guys will get contracts and be employable more than their better-skilled peers in Naijaria and it is not because of work permit. 3 Naijaria local Internationals recently got semi-pro contracts in the US. It will be interesting to talk to them about what their experience has been so far.

_________________
THERE WAS A COUNTRY...

...can't cry more than the bereaved!

Well done is better than well said!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Mar 26, 2020 8:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:35 pm
Posts: 30661
Cellular wrote:
Gotti wrote:
Cellular wrote:
Prof., it has NEVER been about SKILL. Football is beyond being about skill.

It is about EDUCATION. Their football education is lacking. Not their skill.

Go talk to any recent Naijarian football immigrant... they will tell you that the professional tutoring they receive even on what the rudiments of their position calls for them to do is eye-opening.

No one will be teaching them any skill. Just how to play the game consistently at a professional level.

I had this discussion with Gotti on a different thread... basic requirement these days in Naijaria to land a very good lucrative job most times require a foreign Master's degree... looks like our National Team is trending that way as well.

One can say the test of their Naijarian football education is their ability to land a foreign contract.

Abegi leave me out of it... :lol:

Asked you if it meant all those Nigerian coaches who were trained and/or played abroad checked their "education" at Murtala Muhammed Airport (perhaps quarantined) upon their return, and still waiting for a substantive response while you sought refuge in a series of Strawman Arguments. LMAO!

PS: Btw, if the likes of Hope Akpan, Etuhu, Sone Aluko, etc., not to mention all those EPL players I see every week who do not seem to know where to stand on corner-kicks or to cover for an overlapping full-back are "educated", then getting a foreign contract is NO indicia of a football education. SMH

Anyway, like I said...
Have it Hoss and leave me out of it. Let's just agree to disagree.


Chief Gotti, unfortunately, many do.

Nna, I have had people tell me, "better drop this your 'American' ways" as in wanting things done properly or even having a modicum of professionalism.

Naijarian players have skill. I have never disputed it. The same problem Naijaria faces is what inner-city athletes face in America. Lack of proper tutoring (coaching). It is what it is. The days our athleticism compensates for our lack of proper football education are long gone. It is why whenever we are in trouble of qualifying for any 'Youth' tourney we resort to inviting foreign-based pros.

The NFF should take a critical look at the people who coach these players.

And yes, I think our ex-internationals who got the best overseas tutoring and coaching are our best chance.

BTW, your example of Etuhu, Akpan and Aluko is rather funny. Those guys will get contracts and be employable more than their better-skilled peers in Naijaria and it is not because of work permit. 3 Naijaria local Internationals recently got semi-pro contracts in the US. It will be interesting to talk to them about what their experience has been so far.



I think we confuse skill for talent. What we have in abundance is talent.

Converting this to consistent professional application, at a minimum high average level, WITHIN THE TEAM GAME, is where the challenge lies.

And as the years have gone by, it has gotten progressively worse, as u rightly noted, as a result of general fall in standards in Nigeria at almost every level of the country.

The straw argument is almost always to single out individual players, rather than looking at the broader systemic perspective.

Plus you factor the age issue and our players getting into academies past their formation years.

There's little doubt that Nigerian youth players who are developed in European academies from their formation years are much better educated than their locally developed counterparts; have better football specific fitness; better nutrition; better understanding of the professional game; tactics, etc.

But there will always be exceptions. By far the best naturally talented Nigerian players are at home. The ones who make the transition earliest to Europe, and are better able to adjust, recognizing the element of the imperfect transfer market, often have the best chance.

S. American players are also coming in to Europe, but often at much higher starting thresholds as a result of better foundational development.

What is going on at our academies is frankly poor...

_________________
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 2:21 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 2:39 am
Posts: 17955
Location: Super Eagles Homeland
txj wrote:
Cellular wrote:
Gotti wrote:
Cellular wrote:
Prof., it has NEVER been about SKILL. Football is beyond being about skill.

It is about EDUCATION. Their football education is lacking. Not their skill.

Go talk to any recent Naijarian football immigrant... they will tell you that the professional tutoring they receive even on what the rudiments of their position calls for them to do is eye-opening.

No one will be teaching them any skill. Just how to play the game consistently at a professional level.

I had this discussion with Gotti on a different thread... basic requirement these days in Naijaria to land a very good lucrative job most times require a foreign Master's degree... looks like our National Team is trending that way as well.

One can say the test of their Naijarian football education is their ability to land a foreign contract.

Abegi leave me out of it... :lol:

Asked you if it meant all those Nigerian coaches who were trained and/or played abroad checked their "education" at Murtala Muhammed Airport (perhaps quarantined) upon their return, and still waiting for a substantive response while you sought refuge in a series of Strawman Arguments. LMAO!

PS: Btw, if the likes of Hope Akpan, Etuhu, Sone Aluko, etc., not to mention all those EPL players I see every week who do not seem to know where to stand on corner-kicks or to cover for an overlapping full-back are "educated", then getting a foreign contract is NO indicia of a football education. SMH

Anyway, like I said...
Have it Hoss and leave me out of it. Let's just agree to disagree.


Chief Gotti, unfortunately, many do.

Nna, I have had people tell me, "better drop this your 'American' ways" as in wanting things done properly or even having a modicum of professionalism.

Naijarian players have skill. I have never disputed it. The same problem Naijaria faces is what inner-city athletes face in America. Lack of proper tutoring (coaching). It is what it is. The days our athleticism compensates for our lack of proper football education are long gone. It is why whenever we are in trouble of qualifying for any 'Youth' tourney we resort to inviting foreign-based pros.

The NFF should take a critical look at the people who coach these players.

And yes, I think our ex-internationals who got the best overseas tutoring and coaching are our best chance.

BTW, your example of Etuhu, Akpan and Aluko is rather funny. Those guys will get contracts and be employable more than their better-skilled peers in Naijaria and it is not because of work permit. 3 Naijaria local Internationals recently got semi-pro contracts in the US. It will be interesting to talk to them about what their experience has been so far.



I think we confuse skill for talent. What we have in abundance is talent.

Converting this to consistent professional application, at a minimum high average level, WITHIN THE TEAM GAME, is where the challenge lies.

And as the years have gone by, it has gotten progressively worse, as u rightly noted, as a result of general fall in standards in Nigeria at almost every level of the country.

The straw argument is almost always to single out individual players, rather than looking at the broader systemic perspective.

Plus you factor the age issue and our players getting into academies past their formation years.

There's little doubt that Nigerian youth players who are developed in European academies from their formation years are much better educated than their locally developed counterparts; have better football specific fitness; better nutrition; better understanding of the professional game; tactics, etc.

But there will always be exceptions. By far the best naturally talented Nigerian players are at home. The ones who make the transition earliest to Europe, and are better able to adjust, recognizing the element of the imperfect transfer market, often have the best chance.

S. American players are also coming in to Europe, but often at much higher starting thresholds as a result of better foundational development.

What is going on at our academies is frankly poor...


Txj,

Your attempt to strip Nigerian players of skill is a disguised attempt to deny the fact that they have acquired their footballing ability through a process of learning. Nigerian footballers learn football using various processes. That is undeniable. Football education it seems can only be acquired via institutional learning, according to discussions here. If that is true, then football must be quite stunningly unique. In reality, there is nothing unique in learning about football. Football education can be acquired both informally as well as formally. For Nigerian players, both routes apply.

In the streets, they are informally educated, and at most clubs and academies they are formally educated by certified and experienced Nigerian coaches. Unfortunately, because many of them leave Nigeria quite early, their full development may occur in Europe simply due to maturity and further skill development. But to assume that this latter development is solely attributed to football education in Europe is quite inaccurate and denies the work done partly in Nigeria (a point that FIFA transfer fee actually captures). Is it not amazing that the footballers for which you may claim are not educated or skilled in Nigeria suddenly arrive in Europe and take the position of European players who had been receiving the vaunted football education (since childhood)?

You compare South American footballers who get access to the top European football teams to Nigerians but fail to take several factors into consideration. Here are factors that you should have considered:1) football pedigree of those countries compared to Nigeria, 92) that the economic instability for Nigerian footballers drive them to quickly accept European contracts without waiting to move to a team much more aligned to their level of ability, and (3) influence of scouting focus and reputation on recruitment differentials. There are other factors. I would argue, actually, that Nigeria is 'pulling way above its weight' in its successful exportation of players. In fact, in the latest report Nigeria is ranked #10 in the world in overall exportation of players (stats are not broken down in terms of particular leagues) and only three South American countries are ranked ahead of Nigeria and all three have better football pedigree - Brazil, Argentina, and Colombia.

Now, my points above focus on Nigerian footballers in general without differentiating those from the league and those from the academies. In my view, we need to be more nuanced and avoid overly generalizing the quality of players from Nigeria or elsewhere. It is this very tendency towards generalization that (1) render local Nigerian football as static i.e. no emerging great player exists yet we see the likes of Iheanacho, Chukwueze, and others emerge regularly, (2) denies the labor of well trained coaches toiling in Nigeria's football space, (3) denies the gains of Nigerian footballers over the so called "educated" European players in various European leagues, (4) assumes somehow that Nigeria is now comparable to footballing nations that have accomplished much more, (5) if Nigeria is so poor in football education, why is it that Nigeria is ahead in accomplishment to European nations where the vaunted football education exists?

There are more issues, complex as they may be, that remain unresolved by simplistic conclusions or arguments that tend to put Nigeria in a simplified and narrow argument that seeks support from anecdotes that are neither generalizable nor compelling.

_________________
The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2020 11:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:35 pm
Posts: 30661
Enugu II wrote:
txj wrote:
Cellular wrote:
Gotti wrote:
Cellular wrote:
Prof., it has NEVER been about SKILL. Football is beyond being about skill.

It is about EDUCATION. Their football education is lacking. Not their skill.

Go talk to any recent Naijarian football immigrant... they will tell you that the professional tutoring they receive even on what the rudiments of their position calls for them to do is eye-opening.

No one will be teaching them any skill. Just how to play the game consistently at a professional level.

I had this discussion with Gotti on a different thread... basic requirement these days in Naijaria to land a very good lucrative job most times require a foreign Master's degree... looks like our National Team is trending that way as well.

One can say the test of their Naijarian football education is their ability to land a foreign contract.

Abegi leave me out of it... :lol:

Asked you if it meant all those Nigerian coaches who were trained and/or played abroad checked their "education" at Murtala Muhammed Airport (perhaps quarantined) upon their return, and still waiting for a substantive response while you sought refuge in a series of Strawman Arguments. LMAO!

PS: Btw, if the likes of Hope Akpan, Etuhu, Sone Aluko, etc., not to mention all those EPL players I see every week who do not seem to know where to stand on corner-kicks or to cover for an overlapping full-back are "educated", then getting a foreign contract is NO indicia of a football education. SMH

Anyway, like I said...
Have it Hoss and leave me out of it. Let's just agree to disagree.


Chief Gotti, unfortunately, many do.

Nna, I have had people tell me, "better drop this your 'American' ways" as in wanting things done properly or even having a modicum of professionalism.

Naijarian players have skill. I have never disputed it. The same problem Naijaria faces is what inner-city athletes face in America. Lack of proper tutoring (coaching). It is what it is. The days our athleticism compensates for our lack of proper football education are long gone. It is why whenever we are in trouble of qualifying for any 'Youth' tourney we resort to inviting foreign-based pros.

The NFF should take a critical look at the people who coach these players.

And yes, I think our ex-internationals who got the best overseas tutoring and coaching are our best chance.

BTW, your example of Etuhu, Akpan and Aluko is rather funny. Those guys will get contracts and be employable more than their better-skilled peers in Naijaria and it is not because of work permit. 3 Naijaria local Internationals recently got semi-pro contracts in the US. It will be interesting to talk to them about what their experience has been so far.



I think we confuse skill for talent. What we have in abundance is talent.

Converting this to consistent professional application, at a minimum high average level, WITHIN THE TEAM GAME, is where the challenge lies.

And as the years have gone by, it has gotten progressively worse, as u rightly noted, as a result of general fall in standards in Nigeria at almost every level of the country.

The straw argument is almost always to single out individual players, rather than looking at the broader systemic perspective.

Plus you factor the age issue and our players getting into academies past their formation years.

There's little doubt that Nigerian youth players who are developed in European academies from their formation years are much better educated than their locally developed counterparts; have better football specific fitness; better nutrition; better understanding of the professional game; tactics, etc.

But there will always be exceptions. By far the best naturally talented Nigerian players are at home. The ones who make the transition earliest to Europe, and are better able to adjust, recognizing the element of the imperfect transfer market, often have the best chance.

S. American players are also coming in to Europe, but often at much higher starting thresholds as a result of better foundational development.

What is going on at our academies is frankly poor...


Txj,

Your attempt to strip Nigerian players of skill is a disguised attempt to deny the fact that they have acquired their footballing ability through a process of learning. Nigerian footballers learn football using various processes. That is undeniable. Football education it seems can only be acquired via institutional learning, according to discussions here. If that is true, then football must be quite stunningly unique. In reality, there is nothing unique in learning about football. Football education can be acquired both informally as well as formally. For Nigerian players, both routes apply.

I make the difference between skill and talent to highlight the process by which Nigerian players are developed- formal vs informal, not to deny the fact that they have acquired their footballing ability through a process of learning. You really need to get off this reflex reaction that fails to recognize the nuanced position I often take on these issues.

What you rightly highlight is the predominant Nigerian informal approach. However what you ignore is the substantive issue of the weakness of the informal system in the modern football age.



In the streets, they are informally educated, and at most clubs and academies they are formally educated by certified and experienced Nigerian coaches. Unfortunately, because many of them leave Nigeria quite early, their full development may occur in Europe simply due to maturity and further skill development. But to assume that this latter development is solely attributed to football education in Europe is quite inaccurate and denies the work done partly in Nigeria (a point that FIFA transfer fee actually captures). Is it not amazing that the footballers for which you may claim are not educated or skilled in Nigeria suddenly arrive in Europe and take the position of European players who had been receiving the vaunted football education (since childhood)?

I am actually familiar with the way some of the academies work in Nigeria, and have actually helped some out albeit informally. Several years ago, quite a few of them were reaching out to me (misguidedly I must add, as I am not a coach) about helping prepare their players for transfer to Europe. The work of these experienced Nigerian coaches is not based on any modern methods. Neither is the conditioning of the players, nutrition, etc. It is the height of self deception to think this way, or perhaps being stuck in the 70s mindset. Nigeria is not like it was back then and more importantly, neither is football!

The point here is not that Nigerian players are not developing at all thru informal education, but that it is insufficient for this time and age.


You compare South American footballers who get access to the top European football teams to Nigerians but fail to take several factors into consideration. Here are factors that you should have considered:1) football pedigree of those countries compared to Nigeria, 92) that the economic instability for Nigerian footballers drive them to quickly accept European contracts without waiting to move to a team much more aligned to their level of ability, and (3) influence of scouting focus and reputation on recruitment differentials. There are other factors. I would argue, actually, that Nigeria is 'pulling way above its weight' in its successful exportation of players. In fact, in the latest report Nigeria is ranked #10 in the world in overall exportation of players (stats are not broken down in terms of particular leagues) and only three South American countries are ranked ahead of Nigeria and all three have better football pedigree - Brazil, Argentina, and Colombia.

Now, my points above focus on Nigerian footballers in general without differentiating those from the league and those from the academies. In my view, we need to be more nuanced and avoid overly generalizing the quality of players from Nigeria or elsewhere. It is this very tendency towards generalization that (1) render local Nigerian football as static i.e. no emerging great player exists yet we see the likes of Iheanacho, Chukwueze, and others emerge regularly, (2) denies the labor of well trained coaches toiling in Nigeria's football space, (3) denies the gains of Nigerian footballers over the so called "educated" European players in various European leagues, (4) assumes somehow that Nigeria is now comparable to footballing nations that have accomplished much more, (5) if Nigeria is so poor in football education, why is it that Nigeria is ahead in accomplishment to European nations where the vaunted football education exists?

Perhaps you did not read my post, or did it without comprehension. Let me repeat. The best naturally talented Nigerian players are more likely in the domestic game than anywhere else. The gap is in developing these players to translate their natural talent to the professional level. What is often cited by the likes of you are the major breakthrough talents. But what about the hundreds who get lost? Look at Iheanacho whom you cite- which tells me you have no understanding of the issue here. Iheanacho rather than be a model case for the excellence of Nigerian coaching is rather an example of its failures. The weaknesses in his foundational development are visible in broad daylight, except for the clueless!!!

In any case, I made the point that there will be exceptions and the earlier, as in younger (actual age btw) our players arrive in Europe, the easier it is for their further development.


There are more issues, complex as they may be, that remain unresolved by simplistic conclusions or arguments that tend to put Nigeria in a simplified and narrow argument that seeks support from anecdotes that are neither generalizable nor compelling.

The problem is often your failure to realize that Nigeria is a far ways away from when you were domiciled there. Secondly, you belong to this ancient school who think football and coaching is not what its made out to be. I think you need a serious upgrade!

_________________
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 4:59 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 2:39 am
Posts: 17955
Location: Super Eagles Homeland
txj wrote:
Enugu II wrote:

Txj,

Your attempt to strip Nigerian players of skill is a disguised attempt to deny the fact that they have acquired their footballing ability through a process of learning. Nigerian footballers learn football using various processes. That is undeniable. Football education it seems can only be acquired via institutional learning, according to discussions here. If that is true, then football must be quite stunningly unique. In reality, there is nothing unique in learning about football. Football education can be acquired both informally as well as formally. For Nigerian players, both routes apply.

I make the difference between skill and talent to highlight the process by which Nigerian players are developed- formal vs informal, not to deny the fact that they have acquired their footballing ability through a process of learning. You really need to get off this reflex reaction that fails to recognize the nuanced position I often take on these issues.

What you rightly highlight is the predominant Nigerian informal approach. However what you ignore is the substantive issue of the weakness of the informal system in the modern football age.



In the streets, they are informally educated, and at most clubs and academies they are formally educated by certified and experienced Nigerian coaches. Unfortunately, because many of them leave Nigeria quite early, their full development may occur in Europe simply due to maturity and further skill development. But to assume that this latter development is solely attributed to football education in Europe is quite inaccurate and denies the work done partly in Nigeria (a point that FIFA transfer fee actually captures). Is it not amazing that the footballers for which you may claim are not educated or skilled in Nigeria suddenly arrive in Europe and take the position of European players who had been receiving the vaunted football education (since childhood)?

I am actually familiar with the way some of the academies work in Nigeria, and have actually helped some out albeit informally. Several years ago, quite a few of them were reaching out to me (misguidedly I must add, as I am not a coach) about helping prepare their players for transfer to Europe. The work of these experienced Nigerian coaches is not based on any modern methods. Neither is the conditioning of the players, nutrition, etc. It is the height of self deception to think this way, or perhaps being stuck in the 70s mindset. Nigeria is not like it was back then and more importantly, neither is football!

The point here is not that Nigerian players are not developing at all thru informal education, but that it is insufficient for this time and age.


You compare South American footballers who get access to the top European football teams to Nigerians but fail to take several factors into consideration. Here are factors that you should have considered:1) football pedigree of those countries compared to Nigeria, 92) that the economic instability for Nigerian footballers drive them to quickly accept European contracts without waiting to move to a team much more aligned to their level of ability, and (3) influence of scouting focus and reputation on recruitment differentials. There are other factors. I would argue, actually, that Nigeria is 'pulling way above its weight' in its successful exportation of players. In fact, in the latest report Nigeria is ranked #10 in the world in overall exportation of players (stats are not broken down in terms of particular leagues) and only three South American countries are ranked ahead of Nigeria and all three have better football pedigree - Brazil, Argentina, and Colombia.

Now, my points above focus on Nigerian footballers in general without differentiating those from the league and those from the academies. In my view, we need to be more nuanced and avoid overly generalizing the quality of players from Nigeria or elsewhere. It is this very tendency towards generalization that (1) render local Nigerian football as static i.e. no emerging great player exists yet we see the likes of Iheanacho, Chukwueze, and others emerge regularly, (2) denies the labor of well trained coaches toiling in Nigeria's football space, (3) denies the gains of Nigerian footballers over the so called "educated" European players in various European leagues, (4) assumes somehow that Nigeria is now comparable to footballing nations that have accomplished much more, (5) if Nigeria is so poor in football education, why is it that Nigeria is ahead in accomplishment to European nations where the vaunted football education exists?

Perhaps you did not read my post, or did it without comprehension. Let me repeat. The best naturally talented Nigerian players are more likely in the domestic game than anywhere else. The gap is in developing these players to translate their natural talent to the professional level. What is often cited by the likes of you are the major breakthrough talents. But what about the hundreds who get lost? Look at Iheanacho whom you cite- which tells me you have no understanding of the issue here. Iheanacho rather than be a model case for the excellence of Nigerian coaching is rather an example of its failures. The weaknesses in his foundational development are visible in broad daylight, except for the clueless!!!

In any case, I made the point that there will be exceptions and the earlier, as in younger (actual age btw) our players arrive in Europe, the easier it is for their further development.


There are more issues, complex as they may be, that remain unresolved by simplistic conclusions or arguments that tend to put Nigeria in a simplified and narrow argument that seeks support from anecdotes that are neither generalizable nor compelling.

The problem is often your failure to realize that Nigeria is a far ways away from when you were domiciled there. Secondly, you belong to this ancient school who think football and coaching is not what its made out to be. I think you need a serious upgrade!



Txj,

I believe the real problem is your willingness to swallow racist tropes without critical and complex analysis. Today's talk on 'football education' as if it exists in Europe alone is yesterday's description of the 'naive African footballer.' You need to be more aware and willing to critique the so-called great minds of European football.

Take Iheanacho for instance, the fact that he may lack one skill or the other does not render him a failure of Nigerian coaching. You can find weaknesses in the likes of Iwobi, Balogun, and the rest of coached European players. Note that these are in fact some of the best emerging from European training. Several others never made the grade despite years of vaunted "football education' and yet there is Iheanacho, the lad that is supposedly 'poorly educated'..... Go figure. In essence, not every European-born player is complete, my brother. But BTW is this not the same Iheanacho that you so much praised in awe and led the vanguard to have him start for the SE under Keshi when he was still seeking a European contract and lacking fitness? So what changed?

I remain actually more connected to Nigerian football than you are. That I am quite certain of. Your claims, a few years ago, that Nigerian football training was always 11 v 11 informed me how behind you are with Nigerian football. Apparently, you are not aware that several coaches in Nigeria have undertaken similar training as their counterparts elsewhere but you still claim how backward they are. These are professionals, several of them. While they may lack resources, it does not equate to lacking intellect. But then again, it will depend on your willingness to challenge and critique the European perspective and view of Africa and its football.

_________________
The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Mar 28, 2020 6:01 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:35 pm
Posts: 30661
Enugu II wrote:
Txj,

I believe the real problem is your willingness to swallow racist tropes without critical and complex analysis. Today's talk on 'football education' as if it exists in Europe alone is yesterday's description of the 'naive African footballer.' You need to be more aware and willing to critique the so-called great minds of European football.

Take Iheanacho for instance, the fact that he may lack one skill or the other does not render him a failure of Nigerian coaching. You can find weaknesses in the likes of Iwobi, Balogun, and the rest of coached European players. Note that these are in fact some of the best emerging from European training. Several others never made the grade despite years of vaunted "football education' and yet there is Iheanacho, the lad that is supposedly 'poorly educated'..... Go figure. In essence, not every European-born player is complete, my brother. But BTW is this not the same Iheanacho that you so much praised in awe and led the vanguard to have him start for the SE under Keshi when he was still seeking a European contract and lacking fitness? So what changed?

I remain actually more connected to Nigerian football than you are. That I am quite certain of. Your claims, a few years ago, that Nigerian football training was always 11 v 11 informed me how behind you are with Nigerian football. Apparently, you are not aware that several coaches in Nigeria have undertaken similar training as their counterparts elsewhere but you still claim how backward they are. These are professionals, several of them. While they may lack resources, it does not equate to lacking intellect. But then again, it will depend on your willingness to challenge and critique the European perspective and view of Africa and its football.



I'm not interested in your uhuru advocacy. My focus is strictly on football. I understand racist stereotypes. But I also understand misguided black solidarity crap...

Footballers are being educated every moment they get on the pitch and play- formally and informally. But the nature of the modern game is that football education is now based on very specific curricula. Its not the simplistic distinction you make between moving from 11v11 to 5v5. That is just crap...

Of course every player has a weakness. So is your tendency to repeat the obvious...Having a weakness is not the issue. The issue is about how a players qualities are developed.

Take Iheanacho. Yes I raved about him- his TALENT. But watching him grow, its easy to see his lack of understanding of the team game and how best to maximize his talent to the benefit of the team. Something a young player learns as he goes through the development system; something that becomes more and more difficult to learn if he missed it at a certain level of his development, or if he is actually older than his claimed age...

You should read the comments about him by Guardiola, unless perhaps Pep is one of those 'so-called great minds of European football'...

Its not necessarily what training a Nigerian coach has undergone. Its his output that counts. His output in terms of the development of Nigerian players. The improvement of the Nigerian player. How he utilizes his talent to benefit the team game. His understanding of movement. His technical qualities, etc, etc.

That is the evidence of his intellect.

We cannot find a properly developed goalkeeper from the League after 3-4yrs and you are here spouting African solidarity BS...

You need to understand that football has changed from the Mogambo days...You cannot hide under the banner of uhuru advocacy.

_________________
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 2:42 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 2:39 am
Posts: 17955
Location: Super Eagles Homeland
txj wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
Txj,

I believe the real problem is your willingness to swallow racist tropes without critical and complex analysis. Today's talk on 'football education' as if it exists in Europe alone is yesterday's description of the 'naive African footballer.' You need to be more aware and willing to critique the so-called great minds of European football.

Take Iheanacho for instance, the fact that he may lack one skill or the other does not render him a failure of Nigerian coaching. You can find weaknesses in the likes of Iwobi, Balogun, and the rest of coached European players. Note that these are in fact some of the best emerging from European training. Several others never made the grade despite years of vaunted "football education' and yet there is Iheanacho, the lad that is supposedly 'poorly educated'..... Go figure. In essence, not every European-born player is complete, my brother. But BTW is this not the same Iheanacho that you so much praised in awe and led the vanguard to have him start for the SE under Keshi when he was still seeking a European contract and lacking fitness? So what changed?

I remain actually more connected to Nigerian football than you are. That I am quite certain of. Your claims, a few years ago, that Nigerian football training was always 11 v 11 informed me how behind you are with Nigerian football. Apparently, you are not aware that several coaches in Nigeria have undertaken similar training as their counterparts elsewhere but you still claim how backward they are. These are professionals, several of them. While they may lack resources, it does not equate to lacking intellect. But then again, it will depend on your willingness to challenge and critique the European perspective and view of Africa and its football.



I'm not interested in your uhuru advocacy. My focus is strictly on football. I understand racist stereotypes. But I also understand misguided black solidarity crap...

That is exactly the point! The lack of interest is why you swallow these concepts without any critical analysis of the use of such concepts. I have nothing else to add. Your answer confirms exactly what I thought. So much for understanding racist tropes.

Footballers are being educated every moment they get on the pitch and play- formally and informally. But the nature of the modern game is that football education is now based on very specific curricula. Its not the simplistic distinction you make between moving from 11v11 to 5v5. That is just crap...

But how did you now associate your own claim of 11 v 11 to the issue of football education? I am confused. Please explain as I have not even the foggiest idea of the association at this point.

But in any case, good that you agree that football education can be acquired formally and informally and can be acquired both in Nigeria as well as beyond Nigeria. I now move away from that.


Of course every player has a weakness. So is your tendency to repeat the obvious...Having a weakness is not the issue. The issue is about how a players qualities are developed.

Take Iheanacho. Yes I raved about him- his TALENT. But watching him grow, its easy to see his lack of understanding of the team game and how best to maximize his talent to the benefit of the team. Something a young player learns as he goes through the development system; something that becomes more and more difficult to learn if he missed it at a certain level of his development, or if he is actually older than his claimed age...

You should read the comments about him by Guardiola, unless perhaps Pep is one of those 'so-called great minds of European football'...
Okay, we agree that every player has a weakness and, thus, Iheanacho having a weakness is not a shocking revelation. Indeed, it should be obvious and you confirm it as I was not entirely sure that it had been that obvious.

Now, you were raving about Iheanacho's talent. And based on TALENT ALONE you wanted him to play for Nigeria's senior national team? [NOTE: I will debate with you much later and on another thread on that tenuous word "talent." However, I leave it in the meantime.] Wow, so the Nigerian team is held in such a low esteem by you that you will want a player on it just based on 'talent.' This is a team with players that you just claim should be compared to Brazilian players making the top leagues of Europe? Just scroll to an earlier post on this thread. So what that Guardiola made a statement on Iheanacho? Is Guardiola God? He has made statements on others as well including Samuel Et'oo that aren't complementary either. He has his views about players but those are his subjective views of how he sees football. Other managers have their own views that are not necessarily confirmatory of Guardiola's.


Its not necessarily what training a Nigerian coach has undergone. Its his output that counts. His output in terms of the development of Nigerian players. The improvement of the Nigerian player. How he utilizes his talent to benefit the team game. His understanding of movement. His technical qualities, etc, etc.

That is the evidence of his intellect.
I do not disagree with you above. In fact, your point is top notch and there are examples of players developed by Nigerian coaches that have gone on Europe and become successful. It is the work of those coaches that has placed Nigeria #10 in terms of exporting players worldwide. I give credit to them and their intellect
We cannot find a properly developed goalkeeper from the League after 3-4yrs and you are here spouting African solidarity BS...
Well Gernot Rohr has not care and how then can he find them. The one he found was benched by other goalkeepers at some Nigerian clubs. That benching may well indicate that there are better goalkeepers if only Mr. Rohr was willing to look.
You need to understand that football has changed from the Mogambo days...You cannot hide under the banner of uhuru advocacy.
Nothing is ever static, Txj. I do understand the changes. I do not need you to validate that understanding. What you call Uhuru advocacy is the reality that is indeed widely studied. I recommend, if you have the time, to read Ben Carrington's (2010) Race, Sport and Politics for starters. It may help you begin to understand that sporting decisions and media commentaries on sport are not peaches and roses. They require more complex and deeper analysis.

_________________
The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 8:53 am 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:51 am
Posts: 5276
Location: No man's land
Thanks guys. Nice read. Reminds me why I got addicted to that "green screen" to quote my wife.

_________________
"Nigeria's No.1 problem is that all the smart Nigerians and those who know the solutions to everything are hiding here on CE." 1naija


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 4:15 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:35 pm
Posts: 30661
Enugu II wrote:
txj wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
Txj,

I believe the real problem is your willingness to swallow racist tropes without critical and complex analysis. Today's talk on 'football education' as if it exists in Europe alone is yesterday's description of the 'naive African footballer.' You need to be more aware and willing to critique the so-called great minds of European football.

Take Iheanacho for instance, the fact that he may lack one skill or the other does not render him a failure of Nigerian coaching. You can find weaknesses in the likes of Iwobi, Balogun, and the rest of coached European players. Note that these are in fact some of the best emerging from European training. Several others never made the grade despite years of vaunted "football education' and yet there is Iheanacho, the lad that is supposedly 'poorly educated'..... Go figure. In essence, not every European-born player is complete, my brother. But BTW is this not the same Iheanacho that you so much praised in awe and led the vanguard to have him start for the SE under Keshi when he was still seeking a European contract and lacking fitness? So what changed?

I remain actually more connected to Nigerian football than you are. That I am quite certain of. Your claims, a few years ago, that Nigerian football training was always 11 v 11 informed me how behind you are with Nigerian football. Apparently, you are not aware that several coaches in Nigeria have undertaken similar training as their counterparts elsewhere but you still claim how backward they are. These are professionals, several of them. While they may lack resources, it does not equate to lacking intellect. But then again, it will depend on your willingness to challenge and critique the European perspective and view of Africa and its football.



I'm not interested in your uhuru advocacy. My focus is strictly on football. I understand racist stereotypes. But I also understand misguided black solidarity crap...

That is exactly the point! The lack of interest is why you swallow these concepts without any critical analysis of the use of such concepts. I have nothing else to add. Your answer confirms exactly what I thought. So much for understanding racist tropes.

I'm not interested because it is based on misguided advocacy, not facts. Lets stick to football. You can pursue your advocacy in the academic realm...When there is a REAL issue for advocacy, I will be in the frontline...

MY POINT here remains that while Nigerian players have talent in abundance, poor development is constraining their ability to maximize these into a consistent level of professional skills. That is not a subject for African solidarity advocacy. That is strictly a technical issue...


Footballers are being educated every moment they get on the pitch and play- formally and informally. But the nature of the modern game is that football education is now based on very specific curricula. Its not the simplistic distinction you make between moving from 11v11 to 5v5. That is just crap...

But how did you now associate your own claim of 11 v 11 to the issue of football education? I am confused. Please explain as I have not even the foggiest idea of the association at this point.

But in any case, good that you agree that football education can be acquired formally and informally and can be acquired both in Nigeria as well as beyond Nigeria. I now move away from that.


You remain a master of the obvious. It doesn't need repeating that football education is occurring every time a player picks up the ball to practice. The issue is the content and the association between that and the players qualities, plus how this is transitioned to the team game. My point is that whether it is 11v11 or 5v5, the key issue is the content of the curriculum. Stop hanging your hat on ephemerals!

Of course every player has a weakness. So is your tendency to repeat the obvious...Having a weakness is not the issue. The issue is about how a players qualities are developed.

Take Iheanacho. Yes I raved about him- his TALENT. But watching him grow, its easy to see his lack of understanding of the team game and how best to maximize his talent to the benefit of the team. Something a young player learns as he goes through the development system; something that becomes more and more difficult to learn if he missed it at a certain level of his development, or if he is actually older than his claimed age...

You should read the comments about him by Guardiola, unless perhaps Pep is one of those 'so-called great minds of European football'...
Okay, we agree that every player has a weakness and, thus, Iheanacho having a weakness is not a shocking revelation. Indeed, it should be obvious and you confirm it as I was not entirely sure that it had been that obvious.

Now, you were raving about Iheanacho's talent. And based on TALENT ALONE you wanted him to play for Nigeria's senior national team? [NOTE: I will debate with you much later and on another thread on that tenuous word "talent." However, I leave it in the meantime.] Wow, so the Nigerian team is held in such a low esteem by you that you will want a player on it just based on 'talent.' This is a team with players that you just claim should be compared to Brazilian players making the top leagues of Europe? Just scroll to an earlier post on this thread. So what that Guardiola made a statement on Iheanacho? Is Guardiola God? He has made statements on others as well including Samuel Et'oo that aren't complementary either. He has his views about players but those are his subjective views of how he sees football. Other managers have their own views that are not necessarily confirmatory of Guardiola's.



Its not necessarily what training a Nigerian coach has undergone. Its his output that counts. His output in terms of the development of Nigerian players. The improvement of the Nigerian player. How he utilizes his talent to benefit the team game. His understanding of movement. His technical qualities, etc, etc.

That is the evidence of his intellect.

I do not disagree with you above. In fact, your point is top notch and there are examples of players developed by Nigerian coaches that have gone on Europe and become successful. It is the work of those coaches that has placed Nigeria #10 in terms of exporting players worldwide. I give credit to them and their intellect

Yes there are examples of Nigerian players who have been successful. Stop stating the bleeping obvious! The issue is that more and more of our players are not making the grade. So its not simply a matter of quantity of exports. How many are we losing altogether to football who convert to other trades? How many fail to make the grade altogether? How many get stuck in leagues where they are of no value to our football?

The competition among young players for contracts is far higher than it was 5-10yrs ago. But the quality of the young players we are transferring is far lower. A few weeks ago you were celebrating the signing of one of our U17 players by a swedish(?) team...


We cannot find a properly developed goalkeeper from the League after 3-4yrs and you are here spouting African solidarity BS...

Well Gernot Rohr has not care and how then can he find them. The one he found was benched by other goalkeepers at some Nigerian clubs. That benching may well indicate that there are better goalkeepers if only Mr. Rohr was willing to look.

So we do not have a quality GK in the SE because Mr Rohr does not care to look? That is the most ridiculous statement you have ever made!!! What about the CHAN team; did the Nigerian managers also not care to look?

What about the teams in the CAF competitions; did those coaches also not care to look? What about the U17 and U20 teams; did those local coaches also not care to look?

Perhaps you can be so kind as to give them GPS directions to that secret place under the bridge where they can find a quality GK for the SE...


You need to understand that football has changed from the Mogambo days...You cannot hide under the banner of uhuru advocacy.
Nothing is ever static, Txj. I do understand the changes. I do not need you to validate that understanding. What you call Uhuru advocacy is the reality that is indeed widely studied. I recommend, if you have the time, to read Ben Carrington's (2010) Race, Sport and Politics for starters. It may help you begin to understand that sporting decisions and media commentaries on sport are not peaches and roses. They require more complex and deeper analysis.


I understand FULLY the role of race and politics in sports. But I also understand when it is being misguidedly applied to mask what in reality is BS.

It seems by itself ridiculous that we are actually having this debate in the light of the evidence right before our eyes of the performance of our youth teams, even with the use of overage players...

_________________
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


Last edited by txj on Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sun Mar 29, 2020 11:19 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 06, 2004 2:39 am
Posts: 17955
Location: Super Eagles Homeland
Quote:
"
. . . Where do these images come from and why are they so powerful? In the context of African footballers, the concept of “the black athlete” reflects the widespread belief in such ascriptions. “The black athlete,” the manifestation of the white (sports)man’s other, “forged from a combination of preexisting, century-old racial folklores, religious fables and the scientific tales of nineteenth-century racial science” (Carrington 2010: 1). In this, the above outlined colonial and post-colonial ascriptions of African football, the development of playing styles and the concept of an African (sporting) body, perpetuated this manifestation. The contemporary power of such concepts and stereotypes grounds in the continuous circulation of its images, particularly “by the “sports media, (. . .) by the advertising industries, by pseudo-scientific inquiries and the educational system and by athletes themselves, fans, sport administrators and officials” (Carrington 2010: 2). Thus, the popular image of the powerful or trick-loving African sportsman as a characteristic of “the black athlete” has become an inherent part of the social knowledge about Africa over time."
------ Ungruhe, Christian (2014)


txj wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
txj wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
Txj,

I believe the real problem is your willingness to swallow racist tropes without critical and complex analysis. Today's talk on 'football education' as if it exists in Europe alone is yesterday's description of the 'naive African footballer.' You need to be more aware and willing to critique the so-called great minds of European football.

Take Iheanacho for instance, the fact that he may lack one skill or the other does not render him a failure of Nigerian coaching. You can find weaknesses in the likes of Iwobi, Balogun, and the rest of coached European players. Note that these are in fact some of the best emerging from European training. Several others never made the grade despite years of vaunted "football education' and yet there is Iheanacho, the lad that is supposedly 'poorly educated'..... Go figure. In essence, not every European-born player is complete, my brother. But BTW is this not the same Iheanacho that you so much praised in awe and led the vanguard to have him start for the SE under Keshi when he was still seeking a European contract and lacking fitness? So what changed?

I remain actually more connected to Nigerian football than you are. That I am quite certain of. Your claims, a few years ago, that Nigerian football training was always 11 v 11 informed me how behind you are with Nigerian football. Apparently, you are not aware that several coaches in Nigeria have undertaken similar training as their counterparts elsewhere but you still claim how backward they are. These are professionals, several of them. While they may lack resources, it does not equate to lacking intellect. But then again, it will depend on your willingness to challenge and critique the European perspective and view of Africa and its football.



I'm not interested in your uhuru advocacy. My focus is strictly on football. I understand racist stereotypes. But I also understand misguided black solidarity crap...

That is exactly the point! The lack of interest is why you swallow these concepts without any critical analysis of the use of such concepts. I have nothing else to add. Your answer confirms exactly what I thought. So much for understanding racist tropes.

I'm not interested because it is based on misguided advocacy, not facts. Lets stick to football. You can pursue your advocacy in the academic realm...When there is a REAL issue for advocacy, I will be in the frontline...

Hmmm, Txj, can you point to one time that you have ever been on the front line on racial issues? Just one time. You have always been on the frontline of promoting European views of African football. Never ever have I read you challenge those views. Thus, you point on this issue or on previous ones have always been predictable. Make no mistake about that.

Footballers are being educated every moment they get on the pitch and play- formally and informally. But the nature of the modern game is that football education is now based on very specific curricula. Its not the simplistic distinction you make between moving from 11v11 to 5v5. That is just crap...

But how did you now associate your own claim of 11 v 11 to the issue of football education? I am confused. Please explain as I have not even the foggiest idea of the association at this point.

But in any case, good that you agree that football education can be acquired formally and informally and can be acquired both in Nigeria as well as beyond Nigeria. I now move away from that.


You remain a master of the obvious. It doesn't need repeating that football education is occurring every time a player picks up the ball to practice. The issue is the content and the association between that and the players qualities, plus how this is transitioned to the team game. My point is that whether it is 11v11 or 5v5, the key issue is the content of the curriculum. Stop hanging your hat on ephemerals!
Good! Tell us the content of curriculum and how that has made players in Europe much better including those displaced by Nigerian footballers. Perhaps, you can begin to understand the importance of individual learning from what is instructed in either Nigeria and/or in Europe.
Of course every player has a weakness. So is your tendency to repeat the obvious...Having a weakness is not the issue. The issue is about how a players qualities are developed.

Take Iheanacho. Yes I raved about him- his TALENT. But watching him grow, its easy to see his lack of understanding of the team game and how best to maximize his talent to the benefit of the team. Something a young player learns as he goes through the development system; something that becomes more and more difficult to learn if he missed it at a certain level of his development, or if he is actually older than his claimed age...

You should read the comments about him by Guardiola, unless perhaps Pep is one of those 'so-called great minds of European football'...
Okay, we agree that every player has a weakness and, thus, Iheanacho having a weakness is not a shocking revelation. Indeed, it should be obvious and you confirm it as I was not entirely sure that it had been that obvious.

Now, you were raving about Iheanacho's talent. And based on TALENT ALONE you wanted him to play for Nigeria's senior national team? [NOTE: I will debate with you much later and on another thread on that tenuous word "talent." However, I leave it in the meantime.] Wow, so the Nigerian team is held in such a low esteem by you that you will want a player on it just based on 'talent.' This is a team with players that you just claim should be compared to Brazilian players making the top leagues of Europe? Just scroll to an earlier post on this thread. So what that Guardiola made a statement on Iheanacho? Is Guardiola God? He has made statements on others as well including Samuel Et'oo that aren't complementary either. He has his views about players but those are his subjective views of how he sees football. Other managers have their own views that are not necessarily confirmatory of Guardiola's.



Its not necessarily what training a Nigerian coach has undergone. Its his output that counts. His output in terms of the development of Nigerian players. The improvement of the Nigerian player. How he utilizes his talent to benefit the team game. His understanding of movement. His technical qualities, etc, etc.

That is the evidence of his intellect.

I do not disagree with you above. In fact, your point is top notch and there are examples of players developed by Nigerian coaches that have gone on Europe and become successful. It is the work of those coaches that has placed Nigeria #10 in terms of exporting players worldwide. I give credit to them and their intellect

Yes there are examples of Nigerian players who have been successful. Stop stating the bleeping obvious! The issue is that more and more of our players are not making the grade. So its not simply a matter of quantity of exports. How many are we losing altogether to football who convert to other trades? How many fail to make the grade altogether? How many get stuck in leagues where they are of no value to our football?

The competition among young players for contracts is far higher than it was 5-10yrs ago. But the quality of the young players we are transferring is far lower. A few weeks ago you were celebrating the signing of one of our U17 players by a swedish(?) team...

Perhaps, it should have also been obvious that while so many Nigerian players are switching to other trades, we also have many footballers elsewhere switching to other trades. The reason my brother is not simply poor football education, it is perhaps better explained by the lack of places as athletes move to the elite level. For again an example (Obvious it should be) compare number of players in NCAA gridiron football to the number that actually get to the NFL. That is what is happening in association football everywhere in the world and not just Nigeria. That should be obvious but it does not appear to be based on the reason you just put up.
We cannot find a properly developed goalkeeper from the League after 3-4yrs and you are here spouting African solidarity BS...

Well Gernot Rohr has not care and how then can he find them. The one he found was benched by other goalkeepers at some Nigerian clubs. That benching may well indicate that there are better goalkeepers if only Mr. Rohr was willing to look.

So we do not have a quality GK in the SE because Mr Rohr does not care to look? That is the most ridiculous statement you have ever made!!! What about the CHAN team; did the Nigerian managers also not care to look?

What about the teams in the CAF competitions; did those coaches also not care to look? What about the U17 and U20 teams; did those local coaches also not care to look?

Perhaps you can be so kind as to give them GPS directions to that secret place under the bridge where they can find a quality GK for the SE...


I do not need GPS but you may need one if you think Nigeria's ouster in the competitions that you just described were due to poor goalkeeping. In fact, if you followed closely, you would have noted some very good displays by goalkeepers in the continental club competitions, for instance. But may. be you really never paid attention. Why do I think this? Well, is it not funny that you failed to realize that the goalkeepers that you thought demonstrated poor football education at the U17 level were in fact those who had received the vaunted football education in England!

You need to understand that football has changed from the Mogambo days...You cannot hide under the banner of uhuru advocacy.
Nothing is ever static, Txj. I do understand the changes. I do not need you to validate that understanding. What you call Uhuru advocacy is the reality that is indeed widely studied. I recommend, if you have the time, to read Ben Carrington's (2010) Race, Sport and Politics for starters. It may help you begin to understand that sporting decisions and media commentaries on sport are not peaches and roses. They require more complex and deeper analysis.


I understand FULLY the role of race and politics in sports. But I also understand when it is being misguidedly applied to mask what in reality is BS.

It seems by itself ridiculous that we are actually having this debate in the light of the evidence right before our eyes of the performance of our youth teams, even with the use of overage players...
TBH, I am surprised given that if you realize that role you have not seemed to critically realize its application to several issues discussed on this thread or on any other. It requires critical examination of these issues to note how subtly these racial issues are. They aren't obvious, you know

_________________
The difficulties of statistical thinking describes a puzzling limitation of our mind: our excessive confidence in what we believe we know, and our apparent inability to acknowledge the full extent of our ignorance and the uncertainty of the world we live in. We are prone to overestimate how much we understand about the world and to underestimate the role of chance in events -- Daniel Kahneman (2011), Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics
Winner of the Nobel Prize in Economics


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:07 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:35 pm
Posts: 30661
I understand FULLY the role of race and politics in sports. But I also understand when it is being misguidedly applied to mask what in reality is BS.

It seems by itself ridiculous that we are actually having this debate in the light of the evidence right before our eyes of the performance of our youth teams, even with the use of overage players...

MY POINT here remains that while Nigerian players have talent in abundance, poor development is constraining their ability to maximize these into a consistent level of professional skills. That is not a subject for African solidarity advocacy. That is strictly a technical issue...

_________________
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Mar 30, 2020 12:13 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 11:35 pm
Posts: 30661
http://africanfutbol.blogspot.com/


Quote:
At its most fundamental level, the U-17 tournament is about the primacy of individual talent. Even discounting the issue of use of overaged players, a look at the background of the individual Nigerian players would reveal certain inherent advantages, which their upbringing as footballers would confer on them over their European counterparts.

Learning football in a largely informal setting, in my opinion gives our players greater maturity from increased play time and therefore a head start, in their ability to thrive in a competitive environment. Especially in a competitive environment, defined more by individual talent, than the collective unit- tactics and organization.

But even at that, advances in training in youth academies in Europe and South America, is increasingly nullifying this gap.

This is why at the slightly higher level of the U-20 tournament, Nigeria has not done as well.

Why is this?

Because Nigeria has failed to develop football- her footballers.

Does that mean we haven't developed any players? No we have, especially in years past.

_________________
Form is temporary; Class is Permanent!
Liverpool, European Champions 2005.

We watched this very boring video, 500 times, of Sacchi doing defensive drills, using sticks and without the ball, with Maldini, Baresi and Albertini. We used to think before then that if the other players are better, you have to lose. After that we learned anything is possible – you can beat better teams by using tactics." Jurgen Klopp


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Mar 31, 2020 1:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2003 9:33 pm
Posts: 9410
Enugu II wrote:
Quote:
"
. . . Where do these images come from and why are they so powerful? In the context of African footballers, the concept of “the black athlete” reflects the widespread belief in such ascriptions. “The black athlete,” the manifestation of the white (sports)man’s other, “forged from a combination of preexisting, century-old racial folklores, religious fables and the scientific tales of nineteenth-century racial science” (Carrington 2010: 1). In this, the above outlined colonial and post-colonial ascriptions of African football, the development of playing styles and the concept of an African (sporting) body, perpetuated this manifestation. The contemporary power of such concepts and stereotypes grounds in the continuous circulation of its images, particularly “by the “sports media, (. . .) by the advertising industries, by pseudo-scientific inquiries and the educational system and by athletes themselves, fans, sport administrators and officials” (Carrington 2010: 2). Thus, the popular image of the powerful or trick-loving African sportsman as a characteristic of “the black athlete” has become an inherent part of the social knowledge about Africa over time."
------ Ungruhe, Christian (2014)


txj wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
txj wrote:
Enugu II wrote:
Txj,

I believe the real problem is your willingness to swallow racist tropes without critical and complex analysis. Today's talk on 'football education' as if it exists in Europe alone is yesterday's description of the 'naive African footballer.' You need to be more aware and willing to critique the so-called great minds of European football.

Take Iheanacho for instance, the fact that he may lack one skill or the other does not render him a failure of Nigerian coaching. You can find weaknesses in the likes of Iwobi, Balogun, and the rest of coached European players. Note that these are in fact some of the best emerging from European training. Several others never made the grade despite years of vaunted "football education' and yet there is Iheanacho, the lad that is supposedly 'poorly educated'..... Go figure. In essence, not every European-born player is complete, my brother. But BTW is this not the same Iheanacho that you so much praised in awe and led the vanguard to have him start for the SE under Keshi when he was still seeking a European contract and lacking fitness? So what changed?

I remain actually more connected to Nigerian football than you are. That I am quite certain of. Your claims, a few years ago, that Nigerian football training was always 11 v 11 informed me how behind you are with Nigerian football. Apparently, you are not aware that several coaches in Nigeria have undertaken similar training as their counterparts elsewhere but you still claim how backward they are. These are professionals, several of them. While they may lack resources, it does not equate to lacking intellect. But then again, it will depend on your willingness to challenge and critique the European perspective and view of Africa and its football.



I'm not interested in your uhuru advocacy. My focus is strictly on football. I understand racist stereotypes. But I also understand misguided black solidarity crap...

That is exactly the point! The lack of interest is why you swallow these concepts without any critical analysis of the use of such concepts. I have nothing else to add. Your answer confirms exactly what I thought. So much for understanding racist tropes.

I'm not interested because it is based on misguided advocacy, not facts. Lets stick to football. You can pursue your advocacy in the academic realm...When there is a REAL issue for advocacy, I will be in the frontline...

Hmmm, Txj, can you point to one time that you have ever been on the front line on racial issues? Just one time. You have always been on the frontline of promoting European views of African football. Never ever have I read you challenge those views. Thus, you point on this issue or on previous ones have always been predictable. Make no mistake about that.

Footballers are being educated every moment they get on the pitch and play- formally and informally. But the nature of the modern game is that football education is now based on very specific curricula. Its not the simplistic distinction you make between moving from 11v11 to 5v5. That is just crap...

But how did you now associate your own claim of 11 v 11 to the issue of football education? I am confused. Please explain as I have not even the foggiest idea of the association at this point.

But in any case, good that you agree that football education can be acquired formally and informally and can be acquired both in Nigeria as well as beyond Nigeria. I now move away from that.


You remain a master of the obvious. It doesn't need repeating that football education is occurring every time a player picks up the ball to practice. The issue is the content and the association between that and the players qualities, plus how this is transitioned to the team game. My point is that whether it is 11v11 or 5v5, the key issue is the content of the curriculum. Stop hanging your hat on ephemerals!
Good! Tell us the content of curriculum and how that has made players in Europe much better including those displaced by Nigerian footballers. Perhaps, you can begin to understand the importance of individual learning from what is instructed in either Nigeria and/or in Europe.
Of course every player has a weakness. So is your tendency to repeat the obvious...Having a weakness is not the issue. The issue is about how a players qualities are developed.

Take Iheanacho. Yes I raved about him- his TALENT. But watching him grow, its easy to see his lack of understanding of the team game and how best to maximize his talent to the benefit of the team. Something a young player learns as he goes through the development system; something that becomes more and more difficult to learn if he missed it at a certain level of his development, or if he is actually older than his claimed age...

You should read the comments about him by Guardiola, unless perhaps Pep is one of those 'so-called great minds of European football'...
Okay, we agree that every player has a weakness and, thus, Iheanacho having a weakness is not a shocking revelation. Indeed, it should be obvious and you confirm it as I was not entirely sure that it had been that obvious.

Now, you were raving about Iheanacho's talent. And based on TALENT ALONE you wanted him to play for Nigeria's senior national team? [NOTE: I will debate with you much later and on another thread on that tenuous word "talent." However, I leave it in the meantime.] Wow, so the Nigerian team is held in such a low esteem by you that you will want a player on it just based on 'talent.' This is a team with players that you just claim should be compared to Brazilian players making the top leagues of Europe? Just scroll to an earlier post on this thread. So what that Guardiola made a statement on Iheanacho? Is Guardiola God? He has made statements on others as well including Samuel Et'oo that aren't complementary either. He has his views about players but those are his subjective views of how he sees football. Other managers have their own views that are not necessarily confirmatory of Guardiola's.



Its not necessarily what training a Nigerian coach has undergone. Its his output that counts. His output in terms of the development of Nigerian players. The improvement of the Nigerian player. How he utilizes his talent to benefit the team game. His understanding of movement. His technical qualities, etc, etc.

That is the evidence of his intellect.

I do not disagree with you above. In fact, your point is top notch and there are examples of players developed by Nigerian coaches that have gone on Europe and become successful. It is the work of those coaches that has placed Nigeria #10 in terms of exporting players worldwide. I give credit to them and their intellect

Yes there are examples of Nigerian players who have been successful. Stop stating the bleeping obvious! The issue is that more and more of our players are not making the grade. So its not simply a matter of quantity of exports. How many are we losing altogether to football who convert to other trades? How many fail to make the grade altogether? How many get stuck in leagues where they are of no value to our football?

The competition among young players for contracts is far higher than it was 5-10yrs ago. But the quality of the young players we are transferring is far lower. A few weeks ago you were celebrating the signing of one of our U17 players by a swedish(?) team...

Perhaps, it should have also been obvious that while so many Nigerian players are switching to other trades, we also have many footballers elsewhere switching to other trades. The reason my brother is not simply poor football education, it is perhaps better explained by the lack of places as athletes move to the elite level. For again an example (Obvious it should be) compare number of players in NCAA gridiron football to the number that actually get to the NFL. That is what is happening in association football everywhere in the world and not just Nigeria. That should be obvious but it does not appear to be based on the reason you just put up.
We cannot find a properly developed goalkeeper from the League after 3-4yrs and you are here spouting African solidarity BS...

Well Gernot Rohr has not care and how then can he find them. The one he found was benched by other goalkeepers at some Nigerian clubs. That benching may well indicate that there are better goalkeepers if only Mr. Rohr was willing to look.

So we do not have a quality GK in the SE because Mr Rohr does not care to look? That is the most ridiculous statement you have ever made!!! What about the CHAN team; did the Nigerian managers also not care to look?

What about the teams in the CAF competitions; did those coaches also not care to look? What about the U17 and U20 teams; did those local coaches also not care to look?

Perhaps you can be so kind as to give them GPS directions to that secret place under the bridge where they can find a quality GK for the SE...


I do not need GPS but you may need one if you think Nigeria's ouster in the competitions that you just described were due to poor goalkeeping. In fact, if you followed closely, you would have noted some very good displays by goalkeepers in the continental club competitions, for instance. But may. be you really never paid attention. Why do I think this? Well, is it not funny that you failed to realize that the goalkeepers that you thought demonstrated poor football education at the U17 level were in fact those who had received the vaunted football education in England!

You need to understand that football has changed from the Mogambo days...You cannot hide under the banner of uhuru advocacy.
Nothing is ever static, Txj. I do understand the changes. I do not need you to validate that understanding. What you call Uhuru advocacy is the reality that is indeed widely studied. I recommend, if you have the time, to read Ben Carrington's (2010) Race, Sport and Politics for starters. It may help you begin to understand that sporting decisions and media commentaries on sport are not peaches and roses. They require more complex and deeper analysis.


I understand FULLY the role of race and politics in sports. But I also understand when it is being misguidedly applied to mask what in reality is BS.

It seems by itself ridiculous that we are actually having this debate in the light of the evidence right before our eyes of the performance of our youth teams, even with the use of overage players...
TBH, I am surprised given that if you realize that role you have not seemed to critically realize its application to several issues discussed on this thread or on any other. It requires critical examination of these issues to note how subtly these racial issues are. They aren't obvious, you know

Prof, I have come to the conclusion that your comments are just academic and not based on reality.
We need to know the players in the NPFL that can displace the already established players in the SE.
Please do not allow yourself to be unwittingly used by the corrupt set of people, I.e. agents, journalists and football federation officials, who are looking to use the SE to market their players. The SE should be for the best Nigerian eligible players irrespective of where they play their football.
If another Ahmed Musa emerges from the local league, I am sure he would be given the opportunity at the appropriate national team level.

_________________
I am happy


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 5:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Jan 14, 2004 7:02 pm
Posts: 7991
Dammy,
You hit the nail on the head with your highlighted comments below.
This is a ploy by crooks trying to hijack the National team to suite their corrupt means, and Pinnick has allowed himself to be compromised and pushed around by them.
These crooks have yet to name a SINGLE player in the NPFL that is good enough to be in the top 3 of ANY position on the current SE (including the GK position)!

We finally have a situation where the ground work for a solid, competitive SE is being built, brick by brick. But that has to be torn down by people who would rather thrust NPFL players into the SE, who are mediocre, at their very best and would NEVER make it to the big leagues. The scouts for big teams would rather source from Academies first, because those in the NPFL are not the cream of the crop in Nigeria. We have seen how poor they are, from a technical and football intelligence stand point. That's why such players will end up in backwater Eastern European leagues or in Asia. What good does that do Nigeria as a whole??? A bloody waste of space and time.

The SE should be for the VERY BEST Nigerian players out there! PERIOD. The world of Football is evolving at a very fast pace and ALL countries are seeking whatever advantage they have to improve their standing at the continental and world stage. This means searching the best leagues in the world for candidates. Nigeria has a plethora of them who could dramatically enhance our National Team profile. But no, we prefer to rely on mediocre has-beens in the NPFL.
This is a prime example of why the country continues to struggle to progress!


Dammy wrote:
Prof, I have come to the conclusion that your comments are just academic and not based on reality.
We need to know the players in the NPFL that can displace the already established players in the SE.
Please do not allow yourself to be unwittingly used by the corrupt set of people, I.e. agents, journalists and football federation officials, who are looking to use the SE to market their players. The SE should be for the best Nigerian eligible players irrespective of where they play their football.

If another Ahmed Musa emerges from the local league, I am sure he would be given the opportunity at the appropriate national team level.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Apr 06, 2020 6:14 pm 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:12 pm
Posts: 9923
Location: loughborough.
King Pinnick has spoken.

Rohr will go and watch league matches and nurture players :tic:


_________________
By the grace of God I am a Christian, by my deeds a great sinner.....The Way of a Pilgrim


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 38 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

All times are UTC + 1 hour


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 21 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group