Cybereagles

The Undisputed Number One Home for All Super Eagles Fans
It is currently Wed Jul 15, 2020 12:52 am

All times are UTC + 1 hour




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 78 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next
Author Message
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:01 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 7:40 pm
Posts: 14209
EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote:
Dammy wrote:
Otitokoro wrote:
Ausgburg vs Koln today, with 3 Nigerian prospects on display.
1. Udokhai - looked very solid as a left Centerback. Pacy and strong. Had Koln's Jhon Cordoba on lockdown all through the game. Impressive performance.
2. Osarenren Bazee - slowly getting back to form. Glad he went the full 90 today (alongside the other 2 prospects). As mentioned earlier by Emir, will definately be a force to reckone with as a CE winger. Deceptively pacy and skillful, which is really good.
3. Ehizubue - looked solid as RB. Blistering pace and really strong on the ball. His set up for Koln's goal was brilliant.

All in all, 3 exciting players who will definately add value to the SE, if opportuned.

Udokhai is a very solid prospect, Ehizibue has got pace and his cross set up the goal but it seems he lost his man for the equaliser. I drool over the combination of Ehizibue and Chukwueze on the right for the SE. They will give defenders nightmares!
Osareren-Obaze looks very exciting as well.


Udokhai had a decent game but i didn’t see anything to suggest he’s better than what we already have other than he’s left footed. Rohr will have a tough time choosing the wing players with the quality we have, I don’t think we’ve ever had such depth on the wings. We have about 3-4 class players on each wing to choose from.

LW/LWF - Simon,Ejuke, Musa, Onyekuru,Iwobi
RW/RWF - Chukwueze,Bazee, Bonaventure,

With Osihmen,Nacho and Dessers battling for the center forward position we’ll have the most potent attack we’ve ever had.

SE are back folks!



You forgot Kalu.

And abeg Musas time is up.

With all these wingers Rohr needs to convert somebody into an AM, especially since for now, we dont have Eze.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:00 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:44 am
Posts: 3281
vancity eagle wrote:
EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote:
Dammy wrote:
Otitokoro wrote:
Ausgburg vs Koln today, with 3 Nigerian prospects on display.
1. Udokhai - looked very solid as a left Centerback. Pacy and strong. Had Koln's Jhon Cordoba on lockdown all through the game. Impressive performance.
2. Osarenren Bazee - slowly getting back to form. Glad he went the full 90 today (alongside the other 2 prospects). As mentioned earlier by Emir, will definately be a force to reckone with as a CE winger. Deceptively pacy and skillful, which is really good.
3. Ehizubue - looked solid as RB. Blistering pace and really strong on the ball. His set up for Koln's goal was brilliant.

All in all, 3 exciting players who will definately add value to the SE, if opportuned.

Udokhai is a very solid prospect, Ehizibue has got pace and his cross set up the goal but it seems he lost his man for the equaliser. I drool over the combination of Ehizibue and Chukwueze on the right for the SE. They will give defenders nightmares!
Osareren-Obaze looks very exciting as well.


Udokhai had a decent game but i didn’t see anything to suggest he’s better than what we already have other than he’s left footed. Rohr will have a tough time choosing the wing players with the quality we have, I don’t think we’ve ever had such depth on the wings. We have about 3-4 class players on each wing to choose from.

LW/LWF - Simon,Ejuke, Musa, Onyekuru,Iwobi
RW/RWF - Chukwueze,Bazee, Bonaventure,

With Osihmen,Nacho and Dessers battling for the center forward position we’ll have the most potent attack we’ve ever had.

SE are back folks!



You forgot Kalu.

And abeg Musas time is up.

With all these wingers Rohr needs to convert somebody into an AM, especially since for now, we dont have Eze.

Even Musa knows his time is up with the team, but he still has one AFCON and world cup left in him before he retires (hopefully).


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:08 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2003 9:38 pm
Posts: 2649
Was very impressed with Bazee. He is fast, strong, and a direct player. Caused problems for Koln's defense. Udokhai looked solid when his team was defending. His team did more attacking today though so didn't see enough of him.

Ehizibue is a true RB. Very disciplined defensively. Joins the attack , crosses well, and doesn't give the ball away often. The SE RB job is his for the taking. Ebuehi will have a hard time displacing him if he regains fitness. Aina is an option too at RB, but I'll rather see Aina at LB over Collins.

:o
vancity eagle wrote:
EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote:
Dammy wrote:
Otitokoro wrote:
Ausgburg vs Koln today, with 3 Nigerian prospects on display.
1. Udokhai - looked very solid as a left Centerback. Pacy and strong. Had Koln's Jhon Cordoba on lockdown all through the game. Impressive performance.
2. Osarenren Bazee - slowly getting back to form. Glad he went the full 90 today (alongside the other 2 prospects). As mentioned earlier by Emir, will definately be a force to reckone with as a CE winger. Deceptively pacy and skillful, which is really good.
3. Ehizubue - looked solid as RB. Blistering pace and really strong on the ball. His set up for Koln's goal was brilliant.

All in all, 3 exciting players who will definately add value to the SE, if opportuned.

Udokhai is a very solid prospect, Ehizibue has got pace and his cross set up the goal but it seems he lost his man for the equaliser. I drool over the combination of Ehizibue and Chukwueze on the right for the SE. They will give defenders nightmares!
Osareren-Obaze looks very exciting as well.


Udokhai had a decent game but i didn’t see anything to suggest he’s better than what we already have other than he’s left footed. Rohr will have a tough time choosing the wing players with the quality we have, I don’t think we’ve ever had such depth on the wings. We have about 3-4 class players on each wing to choose from.

LW/LWF - Simon,Ejuke, Musa, Onyekuru,Iwobi
RW/RWF - Chukwueze,Bazee, Bonaventure,

With Osihmen,Nacho and Dessers battling for the center forward position we’ll have the most potent attack we’ve ever had.

SE are back folks!



You forgot Kalu.

And abeg Musas time is up.

With all these wingers Rohr needs to convert somebody into an AM, especially since for now, we dont have Eze.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:28 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 7:40 pm
Posts: 14209
olu wrote:
Was very impressed with Bazee. He is fast, strong, and a direct player. Caused problems for Koln's defense. Udokhai looked solid when his team was defending. His team did more attacking today though so didn't see enough of him.

Ehizibue is a true RB. Very disciplined defensively. Joins the attack , crosses well, and doesn't give the ball away often. The SE RB job is his for the taking. Ebuehi will have a hard time displacing him if he regains fitness. Aina is an option too at RB, but I'll rather see Aina at LB over Collins.

:o
vancity eagle wrote:
EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote:
Dammy wrote:
Otitokoro wrote:
Ausgburg vs Koln today, with 3 Nigerian prospects on display.
1. Udokhai - looked very solid as a left Centerback. Pacy and strong. Had Koln's Jhon Cordoba on lockdown all through the game. Impressive performance.
2. Osarenren Bazee - slowly getting back to form. Glad he went the full 90 today (alongside the other 2 prospects). As mentioned earlier by Emir, will definately be a force to reckone with as a CE winger. Deceptively pacy and skillful, which is really good.
3. Ehizubue - looked solid as RB. Blistering pace and really strong on the ball. His set up for Koln's goal was brilliant.

All in all, 3 exciting players who will definately add value to the SE, if opportuned.

Udokhai is a very solid prospect, Ehizibue has got pace and his cross set up the goal but it seems he lost his man for the equaliser. I drool over the combination of Ehizibue and Chukwueze on the right for the SE. They will give defenders nightmares!
Osareren-Obaze looks very exciting as well.


Udokhai had a decent game but i didn’t see anything to suggest he’s better than what we already have other than he’s left footed. Rohr will have a tough time choosing the wing players with the quality we have, I don’t think we’ve ever had such depth on the wings. We have about 3-4 class players on each wing to choose from.

LW/LWF - Simon,Ejuke, Musa, Onyekuru,Iwobi
RW/RWF - Chukwueze,Bazee, Bonaventure,

With Osihmen,Nacho and Dessers battling for the center forward position we’ll have the most potent attack we’ve ever had.

SE are back folks!



You forgot Kalu.

And abeg Musas time is up.

With all these wingers Rohr needs to convert somebody into an AM, especially since for now, we dont have Eze.




IMO Aina is much better than Ezibuhue.

He is much better in an attacking sense. Eze seems to have good crosses but rarely joins in the attack.

It would be interesting to see Aina on the left and Eze on the right, because Collins has been the weakest link for SE for a while now.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:59 am 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 5:57 pm
Posts: 42319
Location: UK
maceo4 wrote:
All the boys looked decent today and will add good depth to the SE. But even with all these players some being the best or MVPs in their clubs some on this thread will tell us we shouldn’t put anyexpectations or mandates on the coach, he should just be allowed to squander this good fortune of talent that we are currently seeing with his customary below par results.
:shock: :shock: :shock:
When? Where?

Image

You are also assuming every other African country is sleeping like ashi wey dem don already pay...

_________________
"Ole kuku ni gbogbo wọn "


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:25 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 6:41 am
Posts: 39587
Location: Land of the Terrapins
Damunk wrote:
maceo4 wrote:
All the boys looked decent today and will add good depth to the SE. But even with all these players some being the best or MVPs in their clubs some on this thread will tell us we shouldn’t put anyexpectations or mandates on the coach, he should just be allowed to squander this good fortune of talent that we are currently seeing with his customary below par results.
:shock: :shock: :shock:
When? Where?

Image

You are also assuming every other African country is sleeping like ashi wey dem don already pay...


But Damunk, so when we (or others) have won its been because the other African countries were sleeping abi? I never get that point, yes the other serious countries are going to be putting the same mandates on their coaches as well having certain expectations to be met, that is the nature of the biz. If the other coaches don't meet their mandates I'm sure their FA will take a good look at them and determine whether they should be retained, its why a bunch were fired after the last ANC. But the excuse to retain a loser better not be because we don't have the players, esp. based on all these prospects. At least Keshi won with less...

_________________
Super Eagus 4 Life!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:32 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2003 9:33 pm
Posts: 9855
vancity eagle wrote:
EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote:
Dammy wrote:
Otitokoro wrote:
Ausgburg vs Koln today, with 3 Nigerian prospects on display.
1. Udokhai - looked very solid as a left Centerback. Pacy and strong. Had Koln's Jhon Cordoba on lockdown all through the game. Impressive performance.
2. Osarenren Bazee - slowly getting back to form. Glad he went the full 90 today (alongside the other 2 prospects). As mentioned earlier by Emir, will definately be a force to reckone with as a CE winger. Deceptively pacy and skillful, which is really good.
3. Ehizubue - looked solid as RB. Blistering pace and really strong on the ball. His set up for Koln's goal was brilliant.

All in all, 3 exciting players who will definately add value to the SE, if opportuned.

Udokhai is a very solid prospect, Ehizibue has got pace and his cross set up the goal but it seems he lost his man for the equaliser. I drool over the combination of Ehizibue and Chukwueze on the right for the SE. They will give defenders nightmares!
Osareren-Obaze looks very exciting as well.


Udokhai had a decent game but i didn’t see anything to suggest he’s better than what we already have other than he’s left footed. Rohr will have a tough time choosing the wing players with the quality we have, I don’t think we’ve ever had such depth on the wings. We have about 3-4 class players on each wing to choose from.

LW/LWF - Simon,Ejuke, Musa, Onyekuru,Iwobi
RW/RWF - Chukwueze,Bazee, Bonaventure,

With Osihmen,Nacho and Dessers battling for the center forward position we’ll have the most potent attack we’ve ever had.

SE are back folks!



You forgot Kalu.

And abeg Musas time is up.

With all these wingers Rohr needs to convert somebody into an AM, especially since for now, we dont have Eze.

And Sareren-Bazee

_________________
I am happy


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:38 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2003 9:33 pm
Posts: 9855
Udokhai has a decision to make soon. My sources claim that he put off a decision about committing to Nigeria till the summer because he wanted to play for Germany at the Olympics.
Now the Olympics has been postponed until next year and I don't think the SE will wait until next year for his decision. It's now or never!

_________________
I am happy


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 7:43 am 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2004 1:12 pm
Posts: 10275
Location: loughborough.
This is Eagle's Nest.

With the precedent set with Tammy and Tomori thread moved to World Football. Thread cleaning might have to be done to this thread.

_________________
By the grace of God I am a Christian, by my deeds a great sinner.....The Way of a Pilgrim


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:04 am 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 5:57 pm
Posts: 42319
Location: UK
maceo4 wrote:
Damunk wrote:
maceo4 wrote:
All the boys looked decent today and will add good depth to the SE. But even with all these players some being the best or MVPs in their clubs some on this thread will tell us we shouldn’t put any expectations or mandates on the coach, he should just be allowed to squander this good fortune of talent that we are currently seeing with his customary below par results.
:shock: :shock: :shock:
When? Where?

Image

You are also assuming every other African country is sleeping like ashi wey dem don already pay...


But Damunk, so when we (or others) have won its been because the other African countries were sleeping abi? I never get that point, yes the other serious countries are going to be putting the same mandates on their coaches as well having certain expectations to be met, that is the nature of the biz. If the other coaches don't meet their mandates I'm sure their FA will take a good look at them and determine whether they should be retained, its why a bunch were fired after the last ANC. But the excuse to retain a loser better not be because we don't have the players, esp. based on all these prospects. At least Keshi won with less...
My point, maceo4, is that you are misrepresenting the debate by stating that some are arguing we shouldn't have any expectations at all (not true) and that we should be okay with Rohr squandering the riches he has at his disposal (so not true).

My point re African countries is that to conclude that a failure to win AFCON amounts to abject failure is to assume you are so far ahead of your competitors that they have absolutely no chance of winning AFCON themselves. Is that the case in Africa?
Winning and losing football matches isn't just down to the strength or performance of the team on the day anyway. AFCON 2000 Final Nigeria v Cameroun for example. We lost! We didn't win AFCON 2000! We failed! Sack the coach! :oops:

Its a knock out competition and we all know how a knockout competition differs from a league competition.
Which would you crown the more authentic champion, the cup winners or the league winners? There is a degree of luck in knock-out competitions that adds to the unpredictability and therefore excitement and ultimately the allure of the game.

So disrupting/disbanding/dismissing for a bad outcome in isolation of everything else isn't very smart.

On the day, ''anytin can happun. Dazz fu'ball'' - the late Stephen Keshi.

_________________
"Ole kuku ni gbogbo wọn "


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:17 am 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 5:57 pm
Posts: 42319
Location: UK
Dammy wrote:
Udokhai has a decision to make soon. My sources claim that he put off a decision about committing to Nigeria till the summer because he wanted to play for Germany at the Olympics.
Now the Olympics has been postponed until next year and I don't think the SE will wait until next year for his decision. It's now or never!
Is he any better than our 'worst' central defender?
Just asking.

_________________
"Ole kuku ni gbogbo wọn "


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 8:25 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 6:41 am
Posts: 39587
Location: Land of the Terrapins
Damunk wrote:
maceo4 wrote:
Damunk wrote:
maceo4 wrote:
All the boys looked decent today and will add good depth to the SE. But even with all these players some being the best or MVPs in their clubs some on this thread will tell us we shouldn’t put any expectations or mandates on the coach, he should just be allowed to squander this good fortune of talent that we are currently seeing with his customary below par results.
:shock: :shock: :shock:
When? Where?

Image

You are also assuming every other African country is sleeping like ashi wey dem don already pay...


But Damunk, so when we (or others) have won its been because the other African countries were sleeping abi? I never get that point, yes the other serious countries are going to be putting the same mandates on their coaches as well having certain expectations to be met, that is the nature of the biz. If the other coaches don't meet their mandates I'm sure their FA will take a good look at them and determine whether they should be retained, its why a bunch were fired after the last ANC. But the excuse to retain a loser better not be because we don't have the players, esp. based on all these prospects. At least Keshi won with less...
My point, maceo, is that you are misrepresenting the debate by stating that some are arguing we shouldn't have any expectations at all (not true) and that we should be okay with Rohr squandering the riches he has at his disposal (so not true).

My point re African countries is that to conclude that a failure to win AFCON amounts to abject failure is to assume you are so far ahead of your competitors that they have absolutely no chance of winning AFCON themselves. Is that the case in Africa?
Winning and losing football matches isn't just down to the strength of a squad anyway. AFCON 2000 Final Nigeria v Cameroun for example.

Its a knock out competition and we all know how a knockout competition differs from a league competition.
Which would you crown the more authentic champion, the cup winners or the league winners?

So disrupting/disbanding/dismissing for a bad outcome in isolation of everything else isn't very smart.


First off firing Rohr isn’t equivalent to disbanding the team, it’s getting rid of a coach that couldn’t accomplish what he had agree to it’s up to the new coach to determine whether he will disband or not and it’s something that the FA can mandate against.

Second, any sensible person would expect that if the unexpected happens and Rohr doesn’t achieve what he agreed to that there would be an inquiry/inquest to determine whether he stays or goes, nothing is ever black or white like that.

But what you and VE keep avoiding is that it’s also not smart to continue down a path of mediocrity simply because of continuity, continuity can not be placed above the ability for the team to achieve things and win medals. If Rohr just doesn’t have what it takes to get us over the hump and actually win things/meet mandates then to me it’s not smart to continue with him if we can find a better option. This is a coach that basically hasn’t won jack in his entire coaching career so I don’t get how getting rid of him if his cycle of failure continues can be termed as ‘not smart’... This is how it goes in the business of coaching, so I guess the entire business is ‘not smart’...

_________________
Super Eagus 4 Life!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:04 am 
Offline
Moderator
User avatar

Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2003 5:57 pm
Posts: 42319
Location: UK
maceo4 wrote:
Damunk wrote:
My point, maceo, is that you are misrepresenting the debate by stating that some are arguing we shouldn't have any expectations at all (not true) and that we should be okay with Rohr squandering the riches he has at his disposal (so not true).

My point re African countries is that to conclude that a failure to win AFCON amounts to abject failure is to assume you are so far ahead of your competitors that they have absolutely no chance of winning AFCON themselves. Is that the case in Africa?
Winning and losing football matches isn't just down to the strength of a squad anyway. AFCON 2000 Final Nigeria v Cameroun for example.

Its a knock out competition and we all know how a knockout competition differs from a league competition.
Which would you crown the more authentic champion, the cup winners or the league winners?

So disrupting/disbanding/dismissing for a bad outcome in isolation of everything else isn't very smart.
First off firing Rohr isn’t equivalent to disbanding the team, it’sgetting rid of a coach that couldn’t accomplish what he had agree to it’s up to the new coach to determine whether he will disband or not and it’s something that the FA can mandate against.
Again, you are 'tailoring' your argument to address an issue which is not in contention.
Not only did I write "disrupting/disbanding/dismissing" (i.e. any of all three possibilities), I also emphasised in bold the key qualifier "in isolation of everything else" - which you somehow missed. I very much doubt that the wording of the contract stipulates that he must "win AFCON 2022 or SACK".
Yes, it must be his goal, the NFF's mandate and our expectation as fans.
No sane person would make such a decision to sack a coach regardless of the manner of failure. This is why I referred to the AFCON 2000 final. Would it make sense to sack the coach in a repeat of such circumstances?
That is my only point. And VanCity's.

Quote:
Second, any sensible person would expect that if the unexpected happens and Rohr doesn’t achieve what he agreed to that there would be an inquiry/inquest to determine whether he stays or goes, nothing is ever black or white like that.

Exactly! But isn't that what we are saying?
When you say "if the unexpected happens", what exactly are you saying? is anything not unexpected in football?
Is football ruled by computer programmes and algorithms? Is human error not intrinsic to the game?

Is it 'expected' that Nigeria wins the AFCON so much so that not winning it is simply down to the coach, whatever the manner of loss? :blink:
This is what we are saying.

The inquiry/inquest/evaluation of the team's performance should occur whether the "unexpected" is responsible for the failure or not.
And by the way, I'd also say that an 'inquest' would also be justified if we actually WIN AFCON, but win it with a heavy dose of luck whilst at the same time playing quite badly. It happens.

Quote:
But what you and VE keep avoiding is that it’s also not smart to continue down a path of mediocrity simply because of continuity, continuity can not be placed above the ability for the team to achieve things and win medals. If Rohr just doesn’t have what it takes to [color=#FF0000]get us over the hump and actually win things/meet mandates[/color] then to me it’s not smart to continue with him if we can find a better option.
Mediocrity, yes. But who defines it and how?
Is failing to win AFCON 'mediocrity'?
It just so happens that a large proportion of Nigerian football fans DO NOT believe we currently have a 'mediocre' team or are treading 'a path of mediocrity'. They are probably in the majority. Not that it matters tbh but my point is, who determines this 'mediocrity'? And how?

The only two things Rohr could ever possibly win are AFCON and the World Cup.
So basically you are saying that failure to win either would automatically make him 'mediocre', in isolation of the circumstances.
I am hoping you get the thrust of my argument.
Pls note that I absolutely agree with disposing of him (or anyone else) based on an agreed definition of mediocrity. But none of us here are stupid or blind, whether we are called 'WOWOs' or not. :rotf: But I believe we have to define what 'success' is and also define what 'failure' or 'mediocrity' are. They are not terms that should be left to subjective interpretation.

Quote:
This is a coach that basically hasn’t won jack in his entire coaching career so...
This is true.
He hasn't won the French league.
He hasn't won the Champions League (or its equivalent)
He hasn't won the Uefa Cup (or its equivalent)
He hasn't won AFCON
He hasn't won the World Cup.

Now tell me how many coaches have got any of those achievements on their CVs and which of them would come rushing to coach Nigeria right now. :rotf:

And if the issue is that the salary he is receiving is believed to be too high and unjustified, then you are effectively arguing we should hire a local coach, pay him less and yet hope to achieve better results.
If on the other hand you are saying we should hire a local coach and pay him the same, that's great. But apart from Keshi (who was on $31,000/month) and Oliseh (who was on slightly less), which of these local causes have "won jack" like you demand?

Quote:
I don’t get how getting rid of him if his cycle of failure continues can be termed as ‘not smart’... This is how it goes in the business of coaching, so I guess the entire business is ‘not smart’...
The 'cycle of failure' you mention is a bit of a stretch as a definition of his tenure...at least so far.

You do know that what you are defining as a 'cycle of failure' is basically down to two matches (v Argentina and v Algeria), both decided in the last, say, 15 minutes.
You can add the meaningless Madagascar game if you insist. :D

But just like you accuse us 'WOWOs' of sidetracking Rohr's 'path of mediocrity', you guys conveniently avoid looking at his overall performance - from where we were, to where we are now, the length of his tenure so far and what he has done with it. It's not just about this unforgivable "number of 'failures'' you speak of...esp when he actually met his mandate re AFCON 2019.

You can't pick and choose to suit your personal sentiments. There has to be criteria we can all agree on.
Anyway, we are the fans.
I think the NFF are able to assess things a little more objectively.

_________________
"Ole kuku ni gbogbo wọn "


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:46 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2003 9:28 pm
Posts: 4275
Location: UK
Damunk wrote:
maceo4 wrote:
Damunk wrote:
My point, maceo, is that you are misrepresenting the debate by stating that some are arguing we shouldn't have any expectations at all (not true) and that we should be okay with Rohr squandering the riches he has at his disposal (so not true).

My point re African countries is that to conclude that a failure to win AFCON amounts to abject failure is to assume you are so far ahead of your competitors that they have absolutely no chance of winning AFCON themselves. Is that the case in Africa?
Winning and losing football matches isn't just down to the strength of a squad anyway. AFCON 2000 Final Nigeria v Cameroun for example.

Its a knock out competition and we all know how a knockout competition differs from a league competition.
Which would you crown the more authentic champion, the cup winners or the league winners?

So disrupting/disbanding/dismissing for a bad outcome in isolation of everything else isn't very smart.
First off firing Rohr isn’t equivalent to disbanding the team, it’sgetting rid of a coach that couldn’t accomplish what he had agree to it’s up to the new coach to determine whether he will disband or not and it’s something that the FA can mandate against.
Again, you are 'tailoring' your argument to address an issue which is not in contention.
Not only did I write "disrupting/disbanding/dismissing" (i.e. any of all three possibilities), I also emphasised in bold the key qualifier "in isolation of everything else" - which you somehow missed. I very much doubt that the wording of the contract stipulates that he must "win AFCON 2022 or SACK".
Yes, it must be his goal, the NFF's mandate and our expectation as fans.
No sane person would make such a decision to sack a coach regardless of the manner of failure. This is why I referred to the AFCON 2000 final. Would it make sense to sack the coach in a repeat of such circumstances?
That is my only point. And VanCity's.

Quote:
Second, any sensible person would expect that if the unexpected happens and Rohr doesn’t achieve what he agreed to that there would be an inquiry/inquest to determine whether he stays or goes, nothing is ever black or white like that.

Exactly! But isn't that what we are saying?
When you say "if the unexpected happens", what exactly are you saying? is anything not unexpected in football?
Is football ruled by computer programmes and algorithms? Is human error not intrinsic to the game?

Is it 'expected' that Nigeria wins the AFCON so much so that not winning it is simply down to the coach, whatever the manner of loss? :blink:
This is what we are saying.

The inquiry/inquest/evaluation of the team's performance should occur whether the "unexpected" is responsible for the failure or not.
And by the way, I'd also say that an 'inquest' would also be justified if we actually WIN AFCON, but win it with a heavy dose of luck whilst at the same time playing quite badly. It happens.

Quote:
But what you and VE keep avoiding is that it’s also not smart to continue down a path of mediocrity simply because of continuity, continuity can not be placed above the ability for the team to achieve things and win medals. If Rohr just doesn’t have what it takes to [color=#FF0000]get us over the hump and actually win things/meet mandates[/color] then to me it’s not smart to continue with him if we can find a better option.
Mediocrity, yes. But who defines it and how?
Is failing to win AFCON 'mediocrity'?
It just so happens that a large proportion of Nigerian football fans DO NOT believe we currently have a 'mediocre' team or are treading 'a path of mediocrity'. They are probably in the majority. Not that it matters tbh but my point is, who determined this 'mediocrity'? And how?

The only two things Rohr could ever possibly win are AFCON and the World Cup.
So basically you are saying that failure to win either would automatically make him 'mediocre', in isolation of the circumstances.
I am hoping you get the thrust of my argument.
Pls note that I absolutely agree of disposing of him (or anyone else) based on an agreed definition of mediocrity. None of us here are stupid or blind, whether we are called 'WOWOs' or not. But I believe we have to define what 'success' and also define what 'failure' or 'mediocrity' are. They are not terms that should be left to subjective interpretation.

Quote:
This is a coach that basically hasn’t won jack in his entire coaching career so...
This is true.
He hasn't won the French league.
He hasn't won the Champions League (or its equivalent)
He hasn't won the Uefa Cup (or its equivalent)
He hasn't won AFCON
He hasn't won the World Cup.

Now tell me how many coaches have got any of those achievements on their CVs and which of them would com rushing to coach Nigeria right now. :rotf:

And if the issue is the salary he is receiving is believed to be unjustified, then you are effectively arguing we should hire a local coach, pay him less and hope to achieve better results.
If on the other hand you are saying we should hire a local coach and pay him the same, thats great. But apart from Keshi (who was on $31,000/month) and Oliseh (who was on slightly less), which of these local causes have "won jack"?

Quote:
I don’t get how getting rid of him if his cycle of failure continues can be termed as ‘not smart’... This is how it goes in the business of coaching, so I guess the entire business is ‘not smart’...
The 'cycle of failure' you mention is a bit of a stretch as a definition of his tenure...at least so far.

You do know that what you are defining as a 'cycle of failure' is basically down to two matches, both decided in the last, say 15 minutes.
You can add the meaningless Madagascar game if you insist. :D

But just like you accuse us 'WOWOs' of sidetracking Rohr's 'path of mediocrity', you guys conveniently avoid looking at his overall performance - from where we were, to where we are now, the length of his tenure so far and what he has done with it. It's not just about the unforgivable "number of 'failures''...esp when he actually met his mandate re AFCON 2019.

You can't pick and choose to suit your personal sentiments. There has to be criteria we can all agree on.
Anyway, we are the fans.
I think the NFF are able to assess things a little more objectively.


A lot of the people calling for Rohr to be sacked have no idea who he should be replaced by. Neither probably did the NFF...

_________________
YNWA


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 11:11 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2003 9:33 pm
Posts: 9855
Damunk wrote:
Dammy wrote:
Udokhai has a decision to make soon. My sources claim that he put off a decision about committing to Nigeria till the summer because he wanted to play for Germany at the Olympics.
Now the Olympics has been postponed until next year and I don't think the SE will wait until next year for his decision. It's now or never!
Is he any better than our 'worst' central defender?
Just asking.

I will have him over an ageing Balogun.

_________________
I am happy


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 3:35 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Dec 27, 2003 6:41 am
Posts: 39587
Location: Land of the Terrapins
Damunk wrote:
maceo4 wrote:
Damunk wrote:
My point, maceo, is that you are misrepresenting the debate by stating that some are arguing we shouldn't have any expectations at all (not true) and that we should be okay with Rohr squandering the riches he has at his disposal (so not true).

My point re African countries is that to conclude that a failure to win AFCON amounts to abject failure is to assume you are so far ahead of your competitors that they have absolutely no chance of winning AFCON themselves. Is that the case in Africa?
Winning and losing football matches isn't just down to the strength of a squad anyway. AFCON 2000 Final Nigeria v Cameroun for example.

Its a knock out competition and we all know how a knockout competition differs from a league competition.
Which would you crown the more authentic champion, the cup winners or the league winners?

So disrupting/disbanding/dismissing for a bad outcome in isolation of everything else isn't very smart.
First off firing Rohr isn’t equivalent to disbanding the team, it’sgetting rid of a coach that couldn’t accomplish what he had agree to it’s up to the new coach to determine whether he will disband or not and it’s something that the FA can mandate against.
Again, you are 'tailoring' your argument to address an issue which is not in contention.
Not only did I write "disrupting/disbanding/dismissing" (i.e. any of all three possibilities), I also emphasised in bold the key qualifier "in isolation of everything else" - which you somehow missed. I very much doubt that the wording of the contract stipulates that he must "win AFCON 2022 or SACK".
Yes, it must be his goal, the NFF's mandate and our expectation as fans.
No sane person would make such a decision to sack a coach regardless of the manner of failure. This is why I referred to the AFCON 2000 final. Would it make sense to sack the coach in a repeat of such circumstances?
That is my only point. And VanCity's.

Quote:
I really doubt that is VanCity's point, which is my bone of contention, he is ready to make all sorts of excuses for Rohr and from what I've been reading from him, basically there can't be a reason why Rohr doesn't take the team to the WC


Quote:
Second, any sensible person would expect that if the unexpected happens and Rohr doesn’t achieve what he agreed to that there would be an inquiry/inquest to determine whether he stays or goes, nothing is ever black or white like that.

Exactly! But isn't that what we are saying?

Quote:
It might be what you are saying lol


When you say "if the unexpected happens", what exactly are you saying? is anything not unexpected in football?
Is football ruled by computer programmes and algorithms? Is human error not intrinsic to the game?

Is it 'expected' that Nigeria wins the AFCON so much so that not winning it is simply down to the coach, whatever the manner of loss? :blink:
This is what we are saying.

The inquiry/inquest/evaluation of the team's performance should occur whether the "unexpected" is responsible for the failure or not.
And by the way, I'd also say that an 'inquest' would also be justified if we actually WIN AFCON, but win it with a heavy dose of luck whilst at the same time playing quite badly. It happens.

:agree:

Quote:
But what you and VE keep avoiding is that it’s also not smart to continue down a path of mediocrity simply because of continuity, continuity can not be placed above the ability for the team to achieve things and win medals. If Rohr just doesn’t have what it takes to [color=#FF0000]get us over the hump and actually win things/meet mandates[/color] then to me it’s not smart to continue with him if we can find a better option.
Mediocrity, yes. But who defines it and how?
Is failing to win AFCON 'mediocrity'?
It just so happens that a large proportion of Nigerian football fans DO NOT believe we currently have a 'mediocre' team or are treading 'a path of mediocrity'. They are probably in the majority. Not that it matters tbh but my point is, who determines this 'mediocrity'? And how?

The only two things Rohr could ever possibly win are AFCON and the World Cup.
So basically you are saying that failure to win either would automatically make him 'mediocre', in isolation of the circumstances.

I am hoping you get the thrust of my argument.

Quote:
No, sorry, I don't get the thrust of your argument, especially when the same VanCity you are siding with was calling the team poor and wanted Keshi fired when he was actually doing better than Rohr currently is. So if that team is poor according to your buddy, then I don't see how I can't term this current team as mediocre....


Pls note that I absolutely agree with disposing of him (or anyone else) based on an agreed definition of mediocrity. But none of us here are stupid or blind, whether we are called 'WOWOs' or not. :rotf: But I believe we have to define what 'success' is and also define what 'failure' or 'mediocrity' are. They are not terms that should be left to subjective interpretation.

Quote:
But thats the difference, you can actually see a scenario where he can be dismissed, from VanCity's posts I gather he cannot, he is a Rohr must take the team to the WC regardless nothing withstanding


Quote:
This is a coach that basically hasn’t won jack in his entire coaching career so...
This is true.
He hasn't won the French league.
He hasn't won the Champions League (or its equivalent)
He hasn't won the Uefa Cup (or its equivalent)
He hasn't won AFCON
He hasn't won the World Cup.

Now tell me how many coaches have got any of those achievements on their CVs and which of them would come rushing to coach Nigeria right now. :rotf:

And if the issue is that the salary he is receiving is believed to be too high and unjustified, then you are effectively arguing we should hire a local coach, pay him less and yet hope to achieve better results.
If on the other hand you are saying we should hire a local coach and pay him the same, that's great. But apart from Keshi (who was on $31,000/month) and Oliseh (who was on slightly less), which of these local causes have "won jack" like you demand?

Quote:
Now this is a different conversation, a smooth transition would involve identifying a replacement before getting rid of Rohr, that I am in complete agreement with. But I also don't think it absolutely always has to be the case, if somehow Rohr starts getting in the way of things butting heads with his employers or players to the detriment of the team, then of course he can be let go and an interim coach can be assigned while we search for a new one, as it is International footie and games are months apart.

And I'm in no way trying to identify a replacement, my point is that we shouldn't start making excuses we didn't make for previous coaches - re: we don't have players, NFF interfered, etc all these
luxuries that Rohr has seemingly benefited from, as he has way more talent available than Keshi did, so if he is not able to win the ANC then we have to give a huge dose of the blame to him (of course there is luck/circumstances etc), but you also make your own luck, and a coach that is a known winner would usually give his team the best platform to win and they start missing simple tap-ins like Yakubu then we can have that conversation, but if we keep getting tactically outwitted then we also need to have the other conversation...


Quote:
I don’t get how getting rid of him if his cycle of failure continues can be termed as ‘not smart’... This is how it goes in the business of coaching, so I guess the entire business is ‘not smart’...
The 'cycle of failure' you mention is a bit of a stretch as a definition of his tenure...at least so far.

You do know that what you are defining as a 'cycle of failure' is basically down to two matches (v Argentina and v Algeria), both decided in the last, say, 15 minutes.
You can add the meaningless Madagascar game if you insist. :D

Quote:
Nope, don't misquote me abeg, his cycle of failure has lasted his ENTIRE career, its much bigger than SE. IF he is able to win with us it would be the first time he has won ANYTHING as a coach. That is my point as far as is this the guy that can take us over the hump, does he have the know how, the ability to motivate and inspire the team to reach the top. The likes of Keshi was a winner in his playing career and had achieved inspiring things in his short coaching career like taking an unfancied Togo to the WC. Rohr has done no such things, and nothing suggests so far that he has what it takes, that extra oomph a winner has, he seems like a docile manager that will offer consistency but might not have the cutting edge to get the team over the hump. I pray I'm wrong, but its the story his career tells...

And BTW, I like how you boiled the WC down to 1 game, as if the other 2 didn't exist, in previous world cups we've been able to lose the last game and still progress to the next stage, so come on now :rotf:


But just like you accuse us 'WOWOs' of sidetracking Rohr's 'path of mediocrity', you guys conveniently avoid looking at his overall performance - from where we were, to where we are now, the length of his tenure so far and what he has done with it. It's not just about this unforgivable "number of 'failures'' you speak of...esp when he actually met his mandate re AFCON 2019.

Quote:
Like I said he's a good manager and has gotten the team back to its consistent golden bronze that every local coach has been able to achieve for much less, so not really saying much....


You can't pick and choose to suit your personal sentiments. There has to be criteria we can all agree on.
Anyway, we are the fans.
I think the NFF are able to assess things a little more objectively.


Can we at least get one thing straight, I doubt you and VanCity are arguing the same point, he seems to be a Rohr die-hard as in nothing Rohr does should result in him not leading the team to the WC. Me and you are more so in the same boat, and my post was in reference to VanCity not you. The rest I will try to answer in-line. Mind you I'm not calling for Rohr to be fired, I just don't understand someone who takes such a hard line that he CAN'T be fired under any circumstance, I don't agree with either extreme, the truth is always nuanced.

_________________
Super Eagus 4 Life!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 7:40 pm
Posts: 14209
Damunk wrote:
maceo4 wrote:
Damunk wrote:
maceo4 wrote:
All the boys looked decent today and will add good depth to the SE. But even with all these players some being the best or MVPs in their clubs some on this thread will tell us we shouldn’t put any expectations or mandates on the coach, he should just be allowed to squander this good fortune of talent that we are currently seeing with his customary below par results.
:shock: :shock: :shock:
When? Where?

Image

You are also assuming every other African country is sleeping like ashi wey dem don already pay...


But Damunk, so when we (or others) have won its been because the other African countries were sleeping abi? I never get that point, yes the other serious countries are going to be putting the same mandates on their coaches as well having certain expectations to be met, that is the nature of the biz. If the other coaches don't meet their mandates I'm sure their FA will take a good look at them and determine whether they should be retained, its why a bunch were fired after the last ANC. But the excuse to retain a loser better not be because we don't have the players, esp. based on all these prospects. At least Keshi won with less...
My point, maceo4, is that you are misrepresenting the debate by stating that some are arguing we shouldn't have any expectations at all (not true) and that we should be okay with Rohr squandering the riches he has at his disposal (so not true).

My point re African countries is that to conclude that a failure to win AFCON amounts to abject failure is to assume you are so far ahead of your competitors that they have absolutely no chance of winning AFCON themselves. Is that the case in Africa?
Winning and losing football matches isn't just down to the strength or performance of the team on the day anyway. AFCON 2000 Final Nigeria v Cameroun for example. We lost! We didn't win AFCON 2000! We failed! Sack the coach! :oops:

Its a knock out competition and we all know how a knockout competition differs from a league competition.
Which would you crown the more authentic champion, the cup winners or the league winners? There is a degree of luck in knock-out competitions that adds to the unpredictability and therefore excitement and ultimately the allure of the game.

So disrupting/disbanding/dismissing for a bad outcome in isolation of everything else isn't very smart.

On the day, ''anytin can happun. Dazz fu'ball'' - the late Stephen Keshi.



KPOM.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:28 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Dec 29, 2003 7:40 pm
Posts: 14209
Quote:


But what you and VE keep avoiding is that it’s also not smart to continue down a path of mediocrity simply because of continuity, continuity can not be placed above the ability for the team to achieve things and win medals. t’...

[/quote]

I am not avoiding anything.

I have never advocated going down the path of mediocrity.

I think the problem arises in what you deem mediocrity to be.

You seem to think finishing 3rd, losing to eventual champions in the last second is mediocre. I do not. We are not the best team in Africa on paper, so why should we think it is our RIGHT to win afcon.

I will tell you the teams who should have done better who had mediocre results.

Egypt
R. Congo

Both coaches were rightfully fired, because they were mediocre.

Finishing 3rd, when you missed the 2 previous competitions is not mediocre.

Algeria were by far the best team of the tournament.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 4:52 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:48 pm
Posts: 15106
vancity eagle wrote:
Quote:


But what you and VE keep avoiding is that it’s also not smart to continue down a path of mediocrity simply because of continuity, continuity can not be placed above the ability for the team to achieve things and win medals. t’...


I am not avoiding anything.

I have never advocated going down the path of mediocrity.

I think the problem arises in what you deem mediocrity to be.

You seem to think finishing 3rd, losing to eventual champions in the last second is mediocre. I do not. We are not the best team in Africa on paper, so why should we think it is our RIGHT to win afcon.

I will tell you the teams who should have done better who had mediocre results.

Egypt
R. Congo

Both coaches were rightfully fired, because they were mediocre.

Finishing 3rd, when you missed the 2 previous competitions is not mediocre.

Algeria were by far the best team of the tournament.


:rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: embarrassing post from a national disgrace who took sides with the enemy on the battlefield against his own country. In a normal world, this stain would have been shot right between the eyes, upon capture, for treason, rather than permitted to run around, unrestricted. :oops: :oops:

_________________
metalalloy wrote:
Does the SE have Gray, Mahrez or Albrighton on our team or players of their caliber?


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 5:27 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2003 10:39 am
Posts: 18865
danfo driver wrote:
vancity eagle wrote:
Quote:


But what you and VE keep avoiding is that it’s also not smart to continue down a path of mediocrity simply because of continuity, continuity can not be placed above the ability for the team to achieve things and win medals. t’...


I am not avoiding anything.

I have never advocated going down the path of mediocrity.

I think the problem arises in what you deem mediocrity to be.

You seem to think finishing 3rd, losing to eventual champions in the last second is mediocre. I do not. We are not the best team in Africa on paper, so why should we think it is our RIGHT to win afcon.

I will tell you the teams who should have done better who had mediocre results.

Egypt
R. Congo

Both coaches were rightfully fired, because they were mediocre.

Finishing 3rd, when you missed the 2 previous competitions is not mediocre.

Algeria were by far the best team of the tournament.


:rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: embarrassing post from a national disgrace who took sides with the enemy on the battlefield against his own country. In a normal world, this stain would have been shot right between the eyes, upon capture, for treason, rather than permitted to run around, unrestricted. :oops: :oops:



Mods! This post is against forum rules. Please us of this Danfo virus that has infected SE with ignorance.

_________________
OCCUPY NFF!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:24 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 5:59 pm
Posts: 48938
Location: Nembe Creek...Oil Exploration. If you call am bunkering na you sabi.
heavyd wrote:
Damunk wrote:
maceo4 wrote:
Damunk wrote:
My point, maceo, is that you are misrepresenting the debate by stating that some are arguing we shouldn't have any expectations at all (not true) and that we should be okay with Rohr squandering the riches he has at his disposal (so not true).

My point re African countries is that to conclude that a failure to win AFCON amounts to abject failure is to assume you are so far ahead of your competitors that they have absolutely no chance of winning AFCON themselves. Is that the case in Africa?
Winning and losing football matches isn't just down to the strength of a squad anyway. AFCON 2000 Final Nigeria v Cameroun for example.

Its a knock out competition and we all know how a knockout competition differs from a league competition.
Which would you crown the more authentic champion, the cup winners or the league winners?

So disrupting/disbanding/dismissing for a bad outcome in isolation of everything else isn't very smart.
First off firing Rohr isn’t equivalent to disbanding the team, it’sgetting rid of a coach that couldn’t accomplish what he had agree to it’s up to the new coach to determine whether he will disband or not and it’s something that the FA can mandate against.
Again, you are 'tailoring' your argument to address an issue which is not in contention.
Not only did I write "disrupting/disbanding/dismissing" (i.e. any of all three possibilities), I also emphasised in bold the key qualifier "in isolation of everything else" - which you somehow missed. I very much doubt that the wording of the contract stipulates that he must "win AFCON 2022 or SACK".
Yes, it must be his goal, the NFF's mandate and our expectation as fans.
No sane person would make such a decision to sack a coach regardless of the manner of failure. This is why I referred to the AFCON 2000 final. Would it make sense to sack the coach in a repeat of such circumstances?
That is my only point. And VanCity's.

Quote:
Second, any sensible person would expect that if the unexpected happens and Rohr doesn’t achieve what he agreed to that there would be an inquiry/inquest to determine whether he stays or goes, nothing is ever black or white like that.

Exactly! But isn't that what we are saying?
When you say "if the unexpected happens", what exactly are you saying? is anything not unexpected in football?
Is football ruled by computer programmes and algorithms? Is human error not intrinsic to the game?

Is it 'expected' that Nigeria wins the AFCON so much so that not winning it is simply down to the coach, whatever the manner of loss? :blink:
This is what we are saying.

The inquiry/inquest/evaluation of the team's performance should occur whether the "unexpected" is responsible for the failure or not.
And by the way, I'd also say that an 'inquest' would also be justified if we actually WIN AFCON, but win it with a heavy dose of luck whilst at the same time playing quite badly. It happens.

Quote:
But what you and VE keep avoiding is that it’s also not smart to continue down a path of mediocrity simply because of continuity, continuity can not be placed above the ability for the team to achieve things and win medals. If Rohr just doesn’t have what it takes to [color=#FF0000]get us over the hump and actually win things/meet mandates[/color] then to me it’s not smart to continue with him if we can find a better option.
Mediocrity, yes. But who defines it and how?
Is failing to win AFCON 'mediocrity'?
It just so happens that a large proportion of Nigerian football fans DO NOT believe we currently have a 'mediocre' team or are treading 'a path of mediocrity'. They are probably in the majority. Not that it matters tbh but my point is, who determined this 'mediocrity'? And how?

The only two things Rohr could ever possibly win are AFCON and the World Cup.
So basically you are saying that failure to win either would automatically make him 'mediocre', in isolation of the circumstances.
I am hoping you get the thrust of my argument.
Pls note that I absolutely agree of disposing of him (or anyone else) based on an agreed definition of mediocrity. None of us here are stupid or blind, whether we are called 'WOWOs' or not. But I believe we have to define what 'success' and also define what 'failure' or 'mediocrity' are. They are not terms that should be left to subjective interpretation.

Quote:
This is a coach that basically hasn’t won jack in his entire coaching career so...
This is true.
He hasn't won the French league.
He hasn't won the Champions League (or its equivalent)
He hasn't won the Uefa Cup (or its equivalent)
He hasn't won AFCON
He hasn't won the World Cup.

Now tell me how many coaches have got any of those achievements on their CVs and which of them would com rushing to coach Nigeria right now. :rotf:

And if the issue is the salary he is receiving is believed to be unjustified, then you are effectively arguing we should hire a local coach, pay him less and hope to achieve better results.
If on the other hand you are saying we should hire a local coach and pay him the same, thats great. But apart from Keshi (who was on $31,000/month) and Oliseh (who was on slightly less), which of these local causes have "won jack"?

Quote:
I don’t get how getting rid of him if his cycle of failure continues can be termed as ‘not smart’... This is how it goes in the business of coaching, so I guess the entire business is ‘not smart’...
The 'cycle of failure' you mention is a bit of a stretch as a definition of his tenure...at least so far.

You do know that what you are defining as a 'cycle of failure' is basically down to two matches, both decided in the last, say 15 minutes.
You can add the meaningless Madagascar game if you insist. :D

But just like you accuse us 'WOWOs' of sidetracking Rohr's 'path of mediocrity', you guys conveniently avoid looking at his overall performance - from where we were, to where we are now, the length of his tenure so far and what he has done with it. It's not just about the unforgivable "number of 'failures''...esp when he actually met his mandate re AFCON 2019.

You can't pick and choose to suit your personal sentiments. There has to be criteria we can all agree on.
Anyway, we are the fans.
I think the NFF are able to assess things a little more objectively.


A lot of the people calling for Rohr to be sacked have no idea who he should be replaced by. Neither probably did the NFF...


Does it matter who will replace him?

Abi coaches don finish for market?

It is funny reading all manner of excuses folks are coming up for retaining a mediocre coach. Take losing to the very same Algeria you people are using as a reason why we should be lenient on him.

Algeria fired their coach in October/November and hired a new one who now beat a Rohr's Eagle when it mattered. They didn't fold their hands and hoped that the old coach will figure it out... they knew with the talent they had, they should have done better.

The only consistent thing in coaching is that you will get fired.

The man is using Naijaria to gain experience and the natives are cheering loudly... that he targets and goals should not be set for him.

I expect Arsenal fans to want a coach that makes them competitive but not necessarily winning nothing...after all, the goal is to win 4th place. But I don't expect that of fans of teams with ambition.

Coaching without a target of winning the AFCON should be left for the likes of Ghana, Kenya, S/Leone, Niger, Benin Republic, Ethiopia, Zimbabwe, South Africa, etc.

_________________
THERE WAS A COUNTRY...

...can't cry more than the bereaved!

Well done is better than well said!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 9:25 pm 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Mon Dec 22, 2003 5:59 pm
Posts: 48938
Location: Nembe Creek...Oil Exploration. If you call am bunkering na you sabi.
EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA wrote:
danfo driver wrote:
vancity eagle wrote:
Quote:


But what you and VE keep avoiding is that it’s also not smart to continue down a path of mediocrity simply because of continuity, continuity can not be placed above the ability for the team to achieve things and win medals. t’...


I am not avoiding anything.

I have never advocated going down the path of mediocrity.

I think the problem arises in what you deem mediocrity to be.

You seem to think finishing 3rd, losing to eventual champions in the last second is mediocre. I do not. We are not the best team in Africa on paper, so why should we think it is our RIGHT to win afcon.

I will tell you the teams who should have done better who had mediocre results.

Egypt
R. Congo

Both coaches were rightfully fired, because they were mediocre.

Finishing 3rd, when you missed the 2 previous competitions is not mediocre.

Algeria were by far the best team of the tournament.


:rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: :rotf: embarrassing post from a national disgrace who took sides with the enemy on the battlefield against his own country. In a normal world, this stain would have been shot right between the eyes, upon capture, for treason, rather than permitted to run around, unrestricted. :oops: :oops:



Mods! This post is against forum rules. Please us of this Danfo virus that has infected SE with ignorance.


Which rules?

_________________
THERE WAS A COUNTRY...

...can't cry more than the bereaved!

Well done is better than well said!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 08, 2020 10:06 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Jun 12, 2017 5:44 am
Posts: 3281
Cellular wrote:
heavyd wrote:
Damunk wrote:
maceo4 wrote:
Damunk wrote:
My point, maceo, is that you are misrepresenting the debate by stating that some are arguing we shouldn't have any expectations at all (not true) and that we should be okay with Rohr squandering the riches he has at his disposal (so not true).

My point re African countries is that to conclude that a failure to win AFCON amounts to abject failure is to assume you are so far ahead of your competitors that they have absolutely no chance of winning AFCON themselves. Is that the case in Africa?
Winning and losing football matches isn't just down to the strength of a squad anyway. AFCON 2000 Final Nigeria v Cameroun for example.

Its a knock out competition and we all know how a knockout competition differs from a league competition.
Which would you crown the more authentic champion, the cup winners or the league winners?

So disrupting/disbanding/dismissing for a bad outcome in isolation of everything else isn't very smart.
First off firing Rohr isn’t equivalent to disbanding the team, it’sgetting rid of a coach that couldn’t accomplish what he had agree to it’s up to the new coach to determine whether he will disband or not and it’s something that the FA can mandate against.
Again, you are 'tailoring' your argument to address an issue which is not in contention.
Not only did I write "disrupting/disbanding/dismissing" (i.e. any of all three possibilities), I also emphasised in bold the key qualifier "in isolation of everything else" - which you somehow missed. I very much doubt that the wording of the contract stipulates that he must "win AFCON 2022 or SACK".
Yes, it must be his goal, the NFF's mandate and our expectation as fans.
No sane person would make such a decision to sack a coach regardless of the manner of failure. This is why I referred to the AFCON 2000 final. Would it make sense to sack the coach in a repeat of such circumstances?
That is my only point. And VanCity's.

Quote:
Second, any sensible person would expect that if the unexpected happens and Rohr doesn’t achieve what he agreed to that there would be an inquiry/inquest to determine whether he stays or goes, nothing is ever black or white like that.

Exactly! But isn't that what we are saying?
When you say "if the unexpected happens", what exactly are you saying? is anything not unexpected in football?
Is football ruled by computer programmes and algorithms? Is human error not intrinsic to the game?

Is it 'expected' that Nigeria wins the AFCON so much so that not winning it is simply down to the coach, whatever the manner of loss? :blink:
This is what we are saying.

The inquiry/inquest/evaluation of the team's performance should occur whether the "unexpected" is responsible for the failure or not.
And by the way, I'd also say that an 'inquest' would also be justified if we actually WIN AFCON, but win it with a heavy dose of luck whilst at the same time playing quite badly. It happens.

Quote:
But what you and VE keep avoiding is that it’s also not smart to continue down a path of mediocrity simply because of continuity, continuity can not be placed above the ability for the team to achieve things and win medals. If Rohr just doesn’t have what it takes to [color=#FF0000]get us over the hump and actually win things/meet mandates[/color] then to me it’s not smart to continue with him if we can find a better option.
Mediocrity, yes. But who defines it and how?
Is failing to win AFCON 'mediocrity'?
It just so happens that a large proportion of Nigerian football fans DO NOT believe we currently have a 'mediocre' team or are treading 'a path of mediocrity'. They are probably in the majority. Not that it matters tbh but my point is, who determined this 'mediocrity'? And how?

The only two things Rohr could ever possibly win are AFCON and the World Cup.
So basically you are saying that failure to win either would automatically make him 'mediocre', in isolation of the circumstances.
I am hoping you get the thrust of my argument.
Pls note that I absolutely agree of disposing of him (or anyone else) based on an agreed definition of mediocrity. None of us here are stupid or blind, whether we are called 'WOWOs' or not. But I believe we have to define what 'success' and also define what 'failure' or 'mediocrity' are. They are not terms that should be left to subjective interpretation.

Quote:
This is a coach that basically hasn’t won jack in his entire coaching career so...
This is true.
He hasn't won the French league.
He hasn't won the Champions League (or its equivalent)
He hasn't won the Uefa Cup (or its equivalent)
He hasn't won AFCON
He hasn't won the World Cup.

Now tell me how many coaches have got any of those achievements on their CVs and which of them would com rushing to coach Nigeria right now. :rotf:

And if the issue is the salary he is receiving is believed to be unjustified, then you are effectively arguing we should hire a local coach, pay him less and hope to achieve better results.
If on the other hand you are saying we should hire a local coach and pay him the same, thats great. But apart from Keshi (who was on $31,000/month) and Oliseh (who was on slightly less), which of these local causes have "won jack"?

Quote:
I don’t get how getting rid of him if his cycle of failure continues can be termed as ‘not smart’... This is how it goes in the business of coaching, so I guess the entire business is ‘not smart’...
The 'cycle of failure' you mention is a bit of a stretch as a definition of his tenure...at least so far.

You do know that what you are defining as a 'cycle of failure' is basically down to two matches, both decided in the last, say 15 minutes.
You can add the meaningless Madagascar game if you insist. :D

But just like you accuse us 'WOWOs' of sidetracking Rohr's 'path of mediocrity', you guys conveniently avoid looking at his overall performance - from where we were, to where we are now, the length of his tenure so far and what he has done with it. It's not just about the unforgivable "number of 'failures''...esp when he actually met his mandate re AFCON 2019.

You can't pick and choose to suit your personal sentiments. There has to be criteria we can all agree on.
Anyway, we are the fans.
I think the NFF are able to assess things a little more objectively.


A lot of the people calling for Rohr to be sacked have no idea who he should be replaced by. Neither probably did the NFF...


Does it matter who will replace him?

Abi coaches don finish for market?

It is funny reading all manner of excuses folks are coming up for retaining a mediocre coach. Take losing to the very same Algeria you people are using as a reason why we should be lenient on him.

Algeria fired their coach in October/November and hired a new one who now beat a Rohr's Eagle when it mattered. They didn't fold their hands and hoped that the old coach will figure it out... they knew with the talent they had, they should have done better.

The only consistent thing in coaching is that you will get fired.

The man is using Naijaria to gain experience and the natives are cheering loudly... that he targets and goals should not be set for him.

I expect Arsenal fans to want a coach that makes them competitive but not necessarily winning nothing...after all, the goal is to win 4th place. But I don't expect that of fans of teams with ambition.

Coaching without a target of winning the AFCON should be left for the likes of Ghana, Kenya, S/Leone, Niger, Benin Republic, Ethiopia, Zimbabwe, South Africa, etc.

Chei Ghana don suffer sha, like play like play they're now sharing biscuit and Fanta with the likes of Niger, Benin Republic etc :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 78 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

All times are UTC + 1 hour


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 57 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group