Can someone explain this to me

[mystic]

This is one of Rohr’s biggest shortcomings. On average, he is right. The best players are in Europe and the better the league, the better the player...in general. But that is not always the case at the individual player level. There are and will always be diamonds in the rough that one can only find if they are willing to give local players a chance.

Rohr does not believe this. He’d rather play a 19 year old euro-based upstart striker than cap the highest Gil scorer in the Nigerian league. This is a problem...

When he capped Junior Lokosa who was the undisputed goal king in the Nigerian league, how much good did that do us?

[mystic]

Why is Junior Ajayi not starting for SE? He is clearly better than some in the main team at least. I wish it was Westerhof. At least he looked within Africa. This man Rohr sees nothing good in Africa except to cash in for his retirement portfolio. He uses the token local SE's goalkeeper with coconut head... Lol. His name skips my mind. If Rohr coached SE in the 90's Amunike wouldn't near team. Finish of sharks wouldn't get in the team to name a few. Nigeria has lost that factor inherent in the typical Naija player. These players today are just models. Not footballers.

1. Ajayi is a good player no doubt.

2. Ajayi has been called up before.

3. Who is he clearly better than, that's in the team, and why?

[mystic]

Agents can't take it anymore. They want their players in the team Now!

They have seen their opportunity to get rid of Rohr in the hopes of returning to the nonsense that had us ranked 14th in Africa.

[deanotito]

This is one of Rohr’s biggest shortcomings. On average, he is right. The best players are in Europe and the better the league, the better the player...in general. But that is not always the case at the individual player level. There are and will always be diamonds in the rough that one can only find if they are willing to give local players a chance.

Rohr does not believe this. He’d rather play a 19 year old euro-based upstart striker than cap the highest Gil scorer in the Nigerian league. This is a problem...

The major hole in this argument is that there is no consensus amongst its advocates on who these "diamonds in the rough" might be.
Not one.

It is a comforting belief to hold on to and a potent tool to bash any dissenting voices with, but the fact remains that it is a sentiment based on nothing tangible.

The Ozonwafors, Odunlamis, Ifeanyi Ifeanyis, Ifeanyi Matthews, Nwobodos, Udos, Akas were all "diamonds in the rough" from the NPFL and all quickly jumped abroad at the first opportunity. Last time I checked, none of them are setting Europe alight just yet. But they were all given a shot in the national teams.

Ejuke is the one exception - that's if he played NPFL in the first place.

What nobody is willing to confront is the minor issue of our quota of local national team players following the same exodus abroad.

How do we keep up the pretence of picking the cream of Nigerian players with this kind of quota arrangement?

And while we're at it, can someone kindly explain why CHAN and the WAFU Nations Cup are not seen as appropriate platforms for identifying our best NPFL players?

Nah Bro. It’s your argument that has holes in it. I am not arguing for a particular player as much as I am arguing for a flexible orientation.

Pray tell, what had the then 2nd choice goalie in a mid table club, Maduka Okoye, done to deserve an international cap over say, the best goalkeeper in the Nigerian league?

Is Joe Aribo so special that what he brings cannot be duplicated within the shores of Nigeria? There are simply numerous eagles positions where the current occupants are not noteworthy enough to comfortably edge out the best local alternative. RB and LB come to mind.

I consider myself a Rohr supporter, but if he is unwilling to be open to local content, he will simply never find the players that defy the odds.

Superior training, nutrition and conditioning

I notice you didn’t say talent. And you are correct. All the things they bring (training, coaching and conditioning) are better on average. But this game is still about talent...and there are levels of talent that more than make up for the factors you mentioned. So though in general, the best leagues give the best players, there are many players in Europe that have received more superior training, better coaching and better nutrition than Messi ... but they still cannot smell Messi’s boots.

If you find rough diamonds, their exposure to the national team could even catalyze their move to Europe - where they can then develop more technical approaches to the game. I’ll say it again. I doubt Maduka Okoye could have dethroned his clubs #1 choice if Rohr didn’t cap him. So Rohr was essentially willing to start a guy who had no club starts. That was quite the leap and a break from convention. But it was a break Rohr was willing to take. What we are asking is that from time to time, he takes similar risks with local talents who have risen above their local peers. To use a common example, I see nothing special about Joe Aribo that precludes the best local player in his position from getting a start in his place.

He took Semi Ajayi, a defender, and put him in the injured Ndidi’s spot for the recent friendlies. Was that not a risk? If he’s so risk averse, why did he take it?? Were there really no defensive midfielders in the local league who could have merited a start? Not one? In a friendly??


The Eagles are far from a finished product. They have gaping/problematic holes at several positions...and I for one would like a coach to at least be open to local alternatives the way he has been open to foreign-born players. Where would Keshi be in folklore without Sunday Mba??

[vancity eagle]

Deanotito.

2 things.

First, u say SE has gaping holes in certain positions, and I utterly reject that notion. This is literally one of the most complete set of players SE has ever had. Even the GK position, which was the only position we lacked is now being greatly improved by Rohrs efforts.

Albeit he should have started this process earlier we now have the likes of Uzoho, Okoye, Osigwe, Yakubu.

I dont see any positions we lack, I think he could try a few new midfield options, dms and more technical 2 way midfielders, but I doubt the NPFL is where to look, when we are yet to try the likes of Nwakali, Alhassan, Kingsley Michael.

Second, I dont know what is ur problem with Aribo, but he is a great player, only problem is his adjusting to the poor pitches and hot weather, but he will be massive for us. He is very technical and can put in a defensive shift as well, albeit not for long as he is still getting used to climate. I doubt any NPFL player is as silky and technical as Aribo. These are the kind of players you need. We will not be playing every match on the yamfields of Sierra Leone.

[deanotito]

Deanotito.

2 things.

First, u say SE has gaping holes in certain positions, and I utterly reject that notion. This is literally one of the most complete set of players SE has ever had. Even the GK position, which was the only position we lacked is now being greatly improved by Rohrs efforts.

Albeit he should have started this process earlier we now have the likes of Uzoho, Okoye, Osigwe, Yakubu.

I dont see any positions we lack, I think he could try a few new midfield options, dms and more technical 2 way midfielders, but I doubt the NPFL is where to look, when we are yet to try the likes of Nwakali, Alhassan, Kingsley Michael.

Second, I dont know what is ur problem with Aribo, but he is a great player, only problem is his adjusting to the poor pitches and hot weather, but he will be massive for us. He is very technical and can put in a defensive shift as well, albeit not for long as he is still getting used to climate. I doubt any NPFL player is as silky and technical as Aribo. These are the kind of players you need. We will not be playing every match on the yamfields of Sierra Leone.

When I look at the SE, I judge them based on an international WC standard. Having watched the WC for decades now, I can tell what kind of players can elevate you above the opposition in the WC and what kind of player is a 1st round elimination type player. The Eagles have holes. Lets just leave that there.

Aribo...I have nothing against him. Nothing at all. I think he's a decent player, but he is by no means world class or like I said earlier, a player who as evidenced by his current form, can elevate you above serious WC opposition. In our ranks, the only players that fit that bill are Ndidi and Osimhen. Then, there are a few debatables...and there are a bunch of absolutely nots.

As I have mentioned countless times, I agree with you and others that imply that the quality of the Nigerian league is lower than many of those in Europe...and so in general, there are better players in Europe. BUT, that is not saying that all Nigerian players are worse than European alternatives. Most businesses fail, but that does not mean you shouldn't start a business if you have an idea.

Rohr takes risks with players. He starts div 2 players, Changes positions of others due to injuries affecting starters, Bloods teenagers etc. It is impossible for me to accept for instance, that in the entire Nigerian league, there was no one to deputize for Ndidi when he got injured...so much so that we needed to put Semi Ajayi in there for 2 friendly games. And time and again, when Rohr is faced with these choices, his biases are clear.

Wasn't it the Sierra Leone local stars that held our euro boys to two draws recently?? Is the quality of player that Sierra Leone fielded that much better than those in the Nigerian league???

[txj]

This is one of Rohr’s biggest shortcomings. On average, he is right. The best players are in Europe and the better the league, the better the player...in general. But that is not always the case at the individual player level. There are and will always be diamonds in the rough that one can only find if they are willing to give local players a chance.

Rohr does not believe this. He’d rather play a 19 year old euro-based upstart striker than cap the highest Gil scorer in the Nigerian league. This is a problem...

The major hole in this argument is that there is no consensus amongst its advocates on who these "diamonds in the rough" might be.
Not one.

It is a comforting belief to hold on to and a potent tool to bash any dissenting voices with, but the fact remains that it is a sentiment based on nothing tangible.

The Ozonwafors, Odunlamis, Ifeanyi Ifeanyis, Ifeanyi Matthews, Nwobodos, Udos, Akas were all "diamonds in the rough" from the NPFL and all quickly jumped abroad at the first opportunity. Last time I checked, none of them are setting Europe alight just yet. But they were all given a shot in the national teams.

Ejuke is the one exception - that's if he played NPFL in the first place.

What nobody is willing to confront is the minor issue of our quota of local national team players following the same exodus abroad.

How do we keep up the pretence of picking the cream of Nigerian players with this kind of quota arrangement?

And while we're at it, can someone kindly explain why CHAN and the WAFU Nations Cup are not seen as appropriate platforms for identifying our best NPFL players?

Nah Bro. It’s your argument that has holes in it. I am not arguing for a particular player as much as I am arguing for a flexible orientation.

Pray tell, what had the then 2nd choice goalie in a mid table club, Maduka Okoye, done to deserve an international cap over say, the best goalkeeper in the Nigerian league?

Is Joe Aribo so special that what he brings cannot be duplicated within the shores of Nigeria? There are simply numerous eagles positions where the current occupants are not noteworthy enough to comfortably edge out the best local alternative. RB and LB come to mind.

I consider myself a Rohr supporter, but if he is unwilling to be open to local content, he will simply never find the players that defy the odds.

Superior training, nutrition and conditioning

I notice you didn’t say talent. And you are correct. All the things they bring (training, coaching and conditioning) are better on average. But this game is still about talent...and there are levels of talent that more than make up for the factors you mentioned. So though in general, the best leagues give the best players, there are many players in Europe that have received more superior training, better coaching and better nutrition than Messi ... but they still cannot smell Messi’s boots.

If you find rough diamonds, their exposure to the national team could even catalyze their move to Europe - where they can then develop more technical approaches to the game. I’ll say it again. I doubt Maduka Okoye could have dethroned his clubs #1 choice if Rohr didn’t cap him. So Rohr was essentially willing to start a guy who had no club starts. That was quite the leap and a break from convention. But it was a break Rohr was willing to take. What we are asking is that from time to time, he takes similar risks with local talents who have risen above their local peers. To use a common example, I see nothing special about Joe Aribo that precludes the best local player in his position from getting a start in his place.

He took Semi Ajayi, a defender, and put him in the injured Ndidi’s spot for the recent friendlies. Was that not a risk? If he’s so risk averse, why did he take it?? Were there really no defensive midfielders in the local league who could have merited a start? Not one? In a friendly??


The Eagles are far from a finished product. They have gaping/problematic holes at several positions...and I for one would like a coach to at least be open to local alternatives the way he has been open to foreign-born players. Where would Keshi be in folklore without Sunday Mba??

First of, talent means zilch if its not accompanied by proper development. And even with proper development, a player can still fail, b/c there are many factors that come into play. Without proper development, a player stand little or no chance in the modern game.

Secondly, no player is ever developed at the NT level, which is the apex. Its at the club level that this happens. NT coaches simply accentuate the work already done and help transition players to international football.

Yes coaches take risks. But they take calculated risks. SE managers going all the way back to BJ have relied on foreign based players for a reason. They represent calculated risk.

It is highly unrealistic to expect a NT manager who is paid to win to see this from the affirmative action perspective.

Football is not rocket science. But neither is it simplistic. Like the Sunday Mba example.

You are asking the NT manager to correct all the failures of our football. To develop our players in the 4-5 days he has with his squad, and then turn them into international class players. All so EII can parrot the silly stats that we have increased the percentage of HB players in the NT...

Football is not rocket science. But it is not simplistic...

On Mba, the SE manager today has far more options than Keshi did back then, and by the time he left, it is instructive that he in fact was using largely players from Europe. Secondly, the fact Mba went nowhere subsequently says all there is...A player can catch lightning in a bottle in a tournament setup- it happens all the time. That by itself is not a basis for long term assumptions.

Player development happens at the youth level thru well structured programs and then at the clubs and the local league. Players then grow thru improved competition in the domestic league, which serves as the platform for their emergence in the NT.

That is the job of the NFF and the domestic clubs and coaches. That is what we had done in the past that led to emergence of young players and subsequently full internationals.

Having abandoned this foundational work, peeps like you and EII are now haranguing NT coaches to solve this problem in 4-5 days of camping with players! It is either the height of ignorance, mischief or cluelessness!!!

[Damunk]

Already we are hearing how the CHAN and WAFU teams are unsuccessful, not because of the players, not because of the local coaches in charge, but because Rohr isn't involved.

Why bring up things YOU are hearing, which none of us have had the privilege of hearing

Alhaji, one of the people I heard it from was YOU.
Are you not one of those fighting to get Rohr involved in CHAN and WAFU?

[Damunk]

This is one of Rohr’s biggest shortcomings. On average, he is right. The best players are in Europe and the better the league, the better the player...in general. But that is not always the case at the individual player level. There are and will always be diamonds in the rough that one can only find if they are willing to give local players a chance.

Rohr does not believe this. He’d rather play a 19 year old euro-based upstart striker than cap the highest Gil scorer in the Nigerian league. This is a problem...

The major hole in this argument is that there is no consensus amongst its advocates on who these "diamonds in the rough" might be.
Not one.

It is a comforting belief to hold on to and a potent tool to bash any dissenting voices with, but the fact remains that it is a sentiment based on nothing tangible.

The Ozonwafors, Odunlamis, Ifeanyi Ifeanyis, Ifeanyi Matthews, Nwobodos, Udos, Akas were all "diamonds in the rough" from the NPFL and all quickly jumped abroad at the first opportunity. Last time I checked, none of them are setting Europe alight just yet. But they were all given a shot in the national teams.

Ejuke is the one exception - that's if he played NPFL in the first place.

What nobody is willing to confront is the minor issue of our quota of local national team players following the same exodus abroad.

How do we keep up the pretence of picking the cream of Nigerian players with this kind of quota arrangement?

And while we're at it, can someone kindly explain why CHAN and the WAFU Nations Cup are not seen as appropriate platforms for identifying our best NPFL players?

Nah Bro. It’s your argument that has holes in it. I am not arguing for a particular player as much as I am arguing for a flexible orientation.

Pray tell, what had the then 2nd choice goalie in a mid table club, Maduka Okoye, done to deserve an international cap over say, the best goalkeeper in the Nigerian league?

Is Joe Aribo so special that what he brings cannot be duplicated within the shores of Nigeria? There are simply numerous eagles positions where the current occupants are not noteworthy enough to comfortably edge out the best local alternative. RB and LB come to mind.

I consider myself a Rohr supporter, but if he is unwilling to be open to local content, he will simply never find the players that defy the odds.

Superior training, nutrition and conditioning

I notice you didn’t say talent. And you are correct. All the things they bring (training, coaching and conditioning) are better on average. But this game is still about talent...and there are levels of talent that more than make up for the factors you mentioned. So though in general, the best leagues give the best players, there are many players in Europe that have received more superior training, better coaching and better nutrition than Messi ... but they still cannot smell Messi’s boots.

If you find rough diamonds, their exposure to the national team could even catalyze their move to Europe - where they can then develop more technical approaches to the game. I’ll say it again. I doubt Maduka Okoye could have dethroned his clubs #1 choice if Rohr didn’t cap him. So Rohr was essentially willing to start a guy who had no club starts. That was quite the leap and a break from convention. But it was a break Rohr was willing to take. What we are asking is that from time to time, he takes similar risks with local talents who have risen above their local peers. To use a common example, I see nothing special about Joe Aribo that precludes the best local player in his position from getting a start in his place.

He took Semi Ajayi, a defender, and put him in the injured Ndidi’s spot for the recent friendlies. Was that not a risk? If he’s so risk averse, why did he take it?? Were there really no defensive midfielders in the local league who could have merited a start? Not one? In a friendly??


The Eagles are far from a finished product. They have gaping/problematic holes at several positions...and I for one would like a coach to at least be open to local alternatives the way he has been open to foreign-born players. Where would Keshi be in folklore without Sunday Mba??

First of, talent means zilch if its not accompanied by proper development. And even with proper development, a player can still fail, b/c there are many factors that come into play. Without proper development, a player stand little or no chance in the modern game.

Secondly, no player is ever developed at the NT level, which is the apex. Its at the club level that this happens. NT coaches simply accentuate the work already done and help transition players to international football.

Yes coaches take risks. But they take calculated risks. SE managers going all the way back to BJ have relied on foreign based players for a reason. They represent calculated risk.

It is highly unrealistic to expect a NT manager who is paid to win to see this from the affirmative action perspective.

Football is not rocket science. But neither is it simplistic. Like the Sunday Mba example.

You are asking the NT manager to correct all the failures of our football. To develop our players in the 4-5 days he has with his squad, and then turn them into international class players. All so EII can parrot the silly stats that we have increased the percentage of HB players in the NT...

Football is not rocket science. But it is not simplistic...

On Mba, the SE manager today has far more options than Keshi did back then, and by the time he left, it is instructive that he in fact was using largely players from Europe. Secondly, the fact Mba went nowhere subsequently says all there is...A player can catch lightning in a bottle in a tournament setup- it happens all the time. That by itself is not a basis for long term assumptions.

Player development happens at the youth level thru well structured programs and then at the clubs and the local league. Players then grow thru improved competition in the domestic league, which serves as the platform for their emergence in the NT.

That is the job of the NFF and the domestic clubs and coaches. That is what we had done in the past that led to emergence of young players and subsequently full internationals.

Having abandoned this foundational work, peeps like you and EII are now haranguing NT coaches to solve this problem in 4-5 days of camping with players! It is either the height of ignorance, mischief or cluelessness!!!

Brilliantly put
Please, don't abandon this thread.
These guys don't give up and will try and drown you out with feelings over facts.

[Damunk]

Superior training, nutrition and conditioning

I notice you didn’t say talent. And you are correct. All the things they bring (training, coaching and conditioning) are better on average. But this game is still about talent...and there are levels of talent that more than make up for the factors you mentioned. So though in general, the best leagues give the best players, there are many players in Europe that have received more superior training, better coaching and better nutrition than Messi ... but they still cannot smell Messi’s boots.

Txj has said everything there is to say.
But your comment on talent makes me wonder.

I think it has long been concluded that talent means nothing in the senior professional game if it is not further nurtured in highly professional environments.
Clubs invest millions (billions in Naira terms) into player development and many a young 'special talent' turns out to be not-so-special once they are put through the grinder. It's a science, not an art. Messi would have been nothing but just another failed 'talent' if there wasn't a science behind his development as a young man.

We all saw the images of the young Iheanacho in the Man City lecture room with Patrick Viera delivering a class. We've all seen the facilities available to players in the top clubs of Europe, but even the 'little' so-called 'backwater' clubs have facilities that will make our club sides look like...let's not even go there. Our young emigrant players say it all the time.

You honestly think clubs invest millions in these facilities just for the glossy magazine and blog images?
Let's get real here.

Nigeria is not short of talent. If you can tell us why this undoubted talent has not materialised into senior success then we'd be really talking.

[deanotito]

Damunk and Txj, you be my people, but no matter how hard I’ve tried, it doesn’t seem like you all are allowing yourselves to understand the difference between average results and individual cases.

You keep reiterating points about how European soccer is better than Nigerian league soccer. No one is arguing that with you.

It is another thing ENTIRELY to say that every single player in the Nigerian league is worse than every single player in European Div 1 (or premier division) soccer. That obviously is not true even though on average, the euro leagues will produce better players. From time to time, on an individual basis, you can find genuine talents in Africa that are better than the European-based Nigerian alternative. Europe is the home of football. It’s leagues are better than South American leagues, Asian Leagues etc. but are you now going to say there is no one playing in Brazil that is as good as the worst Div 1 player in Europe???

Let’s change sports...Is there anyone currently playing professional basketball in Europe that can compete with an NBA player...any NBA player? The answer is of course YES.

That, my friends, is the difference between averages and individual cases.

As a coach, you have to be open to this possibility. If you are not, you’re shooting the team in the foot. There are numerous examples in Rohr’s tenure that show he’s not open to this. He has consigned Nigerian-based players to the dustbin.

[Damunk]

Damunk and Txj, you be my people, but no matter how hard I’ve tried, it doesn’t seem like you all are allowing yourselves to understand the difference between average results and individual cases. You keep reiterating points about how European soccer is better than Nigerian league soccer. No one is arguing that with you.

No-one is arguing that with you either - that is if you are referring to the top leagues and not San Marino, Montenegro dem. So let's forget that one.

It is another thing ENTIRELY to say that every single player in the Nigerian league is worse than every single player in European Div 1 (or premier division) soccer. That obviously is not true even though on average, the euro leagues will produce better players. From time to time, on an individual basis, you can find genuine talents in Africa that are better than the European-based Nigerian alternative.

The is one of the several strawmen I keep hearing and I truly wonder where it comes from.

We have several hundred Nigerian 'exports' playing in Europe with probably even more of Nigerian ancestry including dual nationals. They are legion and it is not slowing down. Of all those players, only the cream are scouted and assessed. Simple. So to suggest that the situation we are in is to invite every "Hey you!" based in Europe is a FALSE narrative.
Everyone is allowed a few missteps and your point here is repeated ad infinitum as if it is actually the truth. This is all simply because Maduka Okoye was a young lower division reserve GK in his home town club and there was one other obscure guy from some funny league that appeared from nowhere, never to be seen again. Finish.

Very few if any dispute the integrity of Rohr's call ups which is why Maduka's story keeps spuriously turning up again and again. Rather than see the positives in catching early a young talented keeper just on the verge of his breakthrough - before other countries did - we'd rather spin it negatively as if the guy ever was, or has turned out to be a 'hey you!'.
We know when and where the 'hey you!' label originated and there were plenty of examples. But here we are debating how apparently "every single player in Europe" is assumed by Rohr to be better than every player in Nigeria.
No bro.
That's a dishonest argument too many people are making. The days of Danny Shittu, Sola Ameobi and Uchebo are long gone.

Europe is the home of football. It’s leagues are better than South American leagues, Asian Leagues etc. but are you now going to say there is no one playing in Brazil that is as good as the worst Div 1 player in Europe???

Foul! Same argument.
I posted at the time a list of foreign-born players in all the 2018 World Cup 23-man squads, and of the 5 African reps, only Egypt had less than us.
22 countries had foreign-borns, with Morocco with about 16 and Senegal 9.

As for foreign-based, the numbers were even higher.
Croatia had ALL its players playing abroad!.
Belgium had 92%; Argentina 84%; Brazil 80%; France 67%. Even Spain had 35% Germany had 33%
Nigeria had 91%.
England had nobody playing outside its shores.

Why we expect Nigeria to buck the global trend and yet claim we want to sooner rather than later win the world cup (and not just enter 2nd or 3rd round) is baffling. As ever, we want to have our cake and eat it.

Let’s change sports...Is there anyone currently playing professional basketball in Europe that can compete with an NBA player...any NBA player? The answer is of course YES.
That, my friends, is the difference between averages and individual cases.

Unless I'm missing your point, you are erecting the same strawman over and over again.
Let me ask you: Does just ANY NBA basket baller get invited to the USA MNT? Does just ANY American from wherever get invited? And wrt the SE, is just ANY Europe-based Nigerian getting invited to the SE?

As a coach, you have to be open to this possibility. If you are not, you’re shooting the team in the foot. There are numerous examples in Rohr’s tenure that show he’s not open to this. He has consigned Nigerian-based players to the dustbin.

I agree with you totally on the highlighted.
What you seem to have difficulty accepting is by recommending (and the coach accepting) a quota system, you are shooting the team in the foot with an even bigger gun.

Maybe we need to hear directly from Salisu, Agu, Yobo etc why they haven't themselves discovered these football gems cleverly hiding in their own country - a country they know more than any foreigner ever could.
Any ideas?

[deanotito]

Damunk, I finally understand your issue. You’re so defensive about Rohr and interpret every criticism of his style in personal or personnel terms.

I have no problem with Maduka. I quite like him, and I think he just may be great. I have no problem with playing Semi Ajayi in defensive midfield in principle. A coach should be free to experiment with changing a player’s position.

In fact, apart from his insistence on continually giving Onuachu playing time and his decision during the CAN to keep playing Moses Simon over Chukwueze, I consider my disagreements with his selection choices simply differences of opinion.

What I am saying, have been saying and will continue to say is that Rohr is obviously reflexively opposed to giving local league players the opportunities he gave to Maduka, Semi Ajayi etc. If Semi Ajayi for instance pulled off a masterclass in defensive midfield (he didn’t), Etebo’s position would immediately be under threat. That is what opportunities do to a player that is prepared. And unlike many on this thread, I REJECT the notion that there are no diamonds in the Nigerian league. I’ve seen too much football and too much Nigerian football to believe that.

Even take our age-grade success. We take boys off the street and they play against European boys who have been in academies since 5. Can you compare Victor Osimhen’s preparation to those of the euro boys he competed against at the U17s??? If coaching, nutrition and conditioning was all there was, how would we be able to compete...at any level? Even at age 27, you cannot compare the preparation the average SE has received to the preparation a counterpart European player has received. So why do we even try to compete? Why don’t we just wave the white flag??

What you call the straw man argument above was not really an argument as it was a logical extension of Rohr’s disposition. Rohr gives bit-part European players opportunities to play while never extending a hand to local players beyond the 3rd choice goalie. That is why it seems like he values European play above all else. If no local player can get a chance because they’re local but there are no qualms inviting players being benched in div 2 (ekong) or battling relegation (pick your choice), then can you really say Rohr does not believe that the worst player in Europe is better than the best local player??

You guys should calm down and stop letting all these emotional arguments determine your views. I like Rohr. I think he has been a success. But I think he shoots himself in the foot by not having an expansive scouting view that includes local Nigerian players.

[Damunk]

Damunk, I finally understand your issue. You’re so defensive about Rohr and interpret every criticism of his style in personal or personnel terms.

Maybe.
I was told the same thing when arguing Keshi's case and when Siasia was about to be fired.
I just think we can be too rash in our reactions to adversity. See an old post of mine below regarding Keshi and Siasia. I can be quite passionate about our SE coaches.

I'll let others evaluate the validity of the claims you make in the rest of your post, including the fact that you still don't seem to appreciate the reasons why we excel in youth tournaments and then suffer a steep drop in performance in the full professional game.

[Damunk]

August 2014.
Same shytt, different targets. Substitute the name 'Keshi' below with Rohr' and straight up you have today's debate, 6 years later.
I have no doubt that many of those acting all self-righteous about the now late Stephen Keshi today were part of the noisy crowd baying for his blood back then.
My own loyalty is first and foremost to the Super Eagles.
My ego can go and sit down somewhere if it means arguing against the interests of the SE.

You make my point I make here every single day.
Rather than stick with objectivity, the counter-argument prefers to build their 'case' in subjectivity. Not a bad thing, as long as you can demolish the factual argument.
Lagos 777 encapsulated it all when he said ".... (I am) Highly experienced at what I do. In a field that's highly scientific. When I meet with colleagues we disagree on a bunch of things like treatment options and argue till kingdom come. BUT, that doesn't mean they or I are incompetent. We just see things differently."
In the light of all the established facts, there is no conclusive case for the sacking of Keshi and the difference of opinion has not met the onus to do so. Since a loose agreement has been reached on most other matters (with a few differences), one then wonders what all the fuss is about.
Must Keshi go just to satisfy those hanging their position on mere feelings?
Na una dey drag matter and not everybody will be bullied into acquiescence.

A few things..

I don't think this thread is about the sacking of Keshi... rather his tactical competence - which anyone with a functioning brain can comment on. You don't need to be Louis Van Gaal to pass judgement on Keshi's tactical competence. Far from it.

I'm not sure which facts you refer to when you say the "established facts show there is no conclusive case for the sacking of Keshi." I read somewhere Keshi was given a quarter-final WC target by his employers. He failed to achieve it. By that fact, should he retain his job?

My own tuppence is that Keshi should remain as coach for the ANC qualifiers and ANC2015 should Nigeria qualify. I'll leave it at that.

Btw there are those who think the sun shines from Keshi's behind and post dozens of his pictures on this forum - na una dey drag matter and not everybody will be bullied into acquiescence...

You are right in that the thread is not about the sacking of Keshi, but then why is there a debate?.
It has long been agreed by more than a few that Kesh - like all coaches - needs to improve technically. The fine print however reads differently. It's all a matter of building up evidence to justify not renewing his contract. It might not apply to you personally, but that's the subplot, thinly veiled. Add to that the claims of corruption, strangely contested only by those who are interested in facts (but unsurprisingly not by those claiming not to want his sack but making the case for his unforgivable technical 'incompetence'). It all adds up to a 'case'.

Failing to meet his target after being given a QF target by the NFF does not in itself amount to justifiable reason to call for his sack, or even for a claim to incompetence. No more than Siasia should have been sacked for the very same reason before him (I don't fall into the either/or group by the way). Only the NFF can tell us what the context of their stated target was. it might been a case of aim for the stars and at least you will hit the sky.

As for those posting pictures of light shining out of Keshi's behind, maybe thats the real problem. People are just arguing because they are being constantly wound up and are going to increasingly outlandish lengths to make the case against Keshi so those irritating shriners can STFU.

But you can probably name only about two of such people. The rest (*of us*) are simply trying to keep the discussion rational - hard in a hysterical anti-Keshi environment.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=252398&p=4295580

[Dammy]

This is one of Rohr’s biggest shortcomings. On average, he is right. The best players are in Europe and the better the league, the better the player...in general. But that is not always the case at the individual player level. There are and will always be diamonds in the rough that one can only find if they are willing to give local players a chance.

Rohr does not believe this. He’d rather play a 19 year old euro-based upstart striker than cap the highest Gil scorer in the Nigerian league. This is a problem...

The major hole in this argument is that there is no consensus amongst its advocates on who these "diamonds in the rough" might be.
Not one.

It is a comforting belief to hold on to and a potent tool to bash any dissenting voices with, but the fact remains that it is a sentiment based on nothing tangible.

The Ozonwafors, Odunlamis, Ifeanyi Ifeanyis, Ifeanyi Matthews, Nwobodos, Udos, Akas were all "diamonds in the rough" from the NPFL and all quickly jumped abroad at the first opportunity. Last time I checked, none of them are setting Europe alight just yet. But they were all given a shot in the national teams.

Ejuke is the one exception - that's if he played NPFL in the first place.

What nobody is willing to confront is the minor issue of our quota of local national team players following the same exodus abroad.

How do we keep up the pretence of picking the cream of Nigerian players with this kind of quota arrangement?

And while we're at it, can someone kindly explain why CHAN and the WAFU Nations Cup are not seen as appropriate platforms for identifying our best NPFL players?

Nah Bro. It’s your argument that has holes in it. I am not arguing for a particular player as much as I am arguing for a flexible orientation.

Pray tell, what had the then 2nd choice goalie in a mid table club, Maduka Okoye, done to deserve an international cap over say, the best goalkeeper in the Nigerian league?

Is Joe Aribo so special that what he brings cannot be duplicated within the shores of Nigeria? There are simply numerous eagles positions where the current occupants are not noteworthy enough to comfortably edge out the best local alternative. RB and LB come to mind.

I consider myself a Rohr supporter, but if he is unwilling to be open to local content, he will simply never find the players that defy the odds.

Superior training, nutrition and conditioning

I notice you didn’t say talent. And you are correct. All the things they bring (training, coaching and conditioning) are better on average. But this game is still about talent...and there are levels of talent that more than make up for the factors you mentioned. So though in general, the best leagues give the best players, there are many players in Europe that have received more superior training, better coaching and better nutrition than Messi ... but they still cannot smell Messi’s boots.

If you find rough diamonds, their exposure to the national team could even catalyze their move to Europe - where they can then develop more technical approaches to the game. I’ll say it again. I doubt Maduka Okoye could have dethroned his clubs #1 choice if Rohr didn’t cap him. So Rohr was essentially willing to start a guy who had no club starts. That was quite the leap and a break from convention. But it was a break Rohr was willing to take. What we are asking is that from time to time, he takes similar risks with local talents who have risen above their local peers. To use a common example, I see nothing special about Joe Aribo that precludes the best local player in his position from getting a start in his place.

He took Semi Ajayi, a defender, and put him in the injured Ndidi’s spot for the recent friendlies. Was that not a risk? If he’s so risk averse, why did he take it?? Were there really no defensive midfielders in the local league who could have merited a start? Not one? In a friendly??


The Eagles are far from a finished product. They have gaping/problematic holes at several positions...and I for one would like a coach to at least be open to local alternatives the way he has been open to foreign-born players. Where would Keshi be in folklore without Sunday Mba??

First of, talent means zilch if its not accompanied by proper development. And even with proper development, a player can still fail, b/c there are many factors that come into play. Without proper development, a player stand little or no chance in the modern game.

Secondly, no player is ever developed at the NT level, which is the apex. Its at the club level that this happens. NT coaches simply accentuate the work already done and help transition players to international football.

Yes coaches take risks. But they take calculated risks. SE managers going all the way back to BJ have relied on foreign based players for a reason. They represent calculated risk.

It is highly unrealistic to expect a NT manager who is paid to win to see this from the affirmative action perspective.

Football is not rocket science. But neither is it simplistic. Like the Sunday Mba example.

You are asking the NT manager to correct all the failures of our football. To develop our players in the 4-5 days he has with his squad, and then turn them into international class players. All so EII can parrot the silly stats that we have increased the percentage of HB players in the NT...

Football is not rocket science. But it is not simplistic...

On Mba, the SE manager today has far more options than Keshi did back then, and by the time he left, it is instructive that he in fact was using largely players from Europe. Secondly, the fact Mba went nowhere subsequently says all there is...A player can catch lightning in a bottle in a tournament setup- it happens all the time. That by itself is not a basis for long term assumptions.

Player development happens at the youth level thru well structured programs and then at the clubs and the local league. Players then grow thru improved competition in the domestic league, which serves as the platform for their emergence in the NT.

That is the job of the NFF and the domestic clubs and coaches. That is what we had done in the past that led to emergence of young players and subsequently full internationals.

Having abandoned this foundational work, peeps like you and EII are now haranguing NT coaches to solve this problem in 4-5 days of camping with players! It is either the height of ignorance, mischief or cluelessness!!!

Thanks bro, nothing to add, you've said it all! I used to be taken by E11's prose before but not anymore. In Nigeria, there's a combination of the media, agents, social media influencers, working together to gain access to the SE for specific hb players.
Please E11and co, tell us what advantage inviting hb players will have on the local league? This is what they hide under but we have seen the pattern that once the player has Nigerian international written against his name, the next step is to move him outside the country to market him. They all hate on Rohr because he has spoilt the market for them! They claim to love the SE but they want us to return to a practice that caused us 2 successive CANs.
Rohr has made a rod for his back by the recent performances in the AFCON qualifiers but I would rather stick with him than go back to what E11 is advocating.
As exposed as E11 is, where in the world is a coach mandated to pick certain players and not given a free hand?

[fabio]

Thanks bro, nothing to add, you've said it all! I used to be taken by E11's prose before but not anymore. In Nigeria, there's a combination of the media, agents, social media influencers, working together to gain access to the SE for specific hb players.
Please E11and co, tell us what advantage inviting hb players will have on the local league? This is what they hide under but we have seen the pattern that once the player has Nigerian international written against his name, the next step is to move him outside the country to market him. They all hate on Rohr because he has spoilt the market for them! They claim to love the SE but they want us to return to a practice that caused us 2 successive CANs.
Rohr has made a rod for his back by the recent performances in the AFCON qualifiers but I would rather stick with him than go back to what E11 is advocating.
As exposed as E11 is, where in the world is a coach mandated to pick certain players and not given a free hand?

Why you do always assume anyone who points out Rohr flaws or has a contrary opinion is an agent or has an agenda.

You love SE so much, yet you were ´Anti - Keshi´...you didn´t have an agenda.

Other loves SE, they are ´Anti-Rohr´... according to you, they have an agenda.

Blame Pinnick for SE missing 2 successive CANs.

[deanotito]

Damunk, I finally understand your issue. You’re so defensive about Rohr and interpret every criticism of his style in personal or personnel terms.

Maybe.
I was told the same thing when arguing Keshi's case and when Siasia was about to be fired.
I just think we can be too rash in our reactions to adversity. See an old post of mine below regarding Keshi and Siasia. I can be quite passionate about our SE coaches.

I'll let others evaluate the validity of the claims you make in the rest of your post, including the fact that you still don't seem to appreciate the reasons why we excel in youth tournaments and then suffer a steep drop in performance in the full professional game.

Oh yes, I do understand why we suffer a steep drop in the professional game. That is clear to all who analyze these things. However, that is not the point. The point is if coaching, conditioning and training was all there was to success in soccer, Nigeria should be absolute shyt at the age-grade level...darn right doodoo. Our boys at 17, 21 etc (official or otherwise) have received nowhere close to the preparation of the factory managed Europeans. So why then are we among the most successful at age grade competitions.

If you give Rohr our U17 team now, he will go and be sleeping in European academies looking for anyone who has an Ola or Olu or Okafor or Chi in their first/middle/last names and trying to convince them to come and play for us. He will raise a team. The team would be competent. But the team would also be pretty robotic in my opinion. There would be other ways to raise a team...going to the streets or the ramshackle academies of Nigeria. But he will refuse and tell you ‘conditioning, training, nutrition’....and some of you will gobble it up.

There are many ways to raise a competent team. But not so many to raise an optimal team. That takes work and a bit of flexibility.

[Damunk]

Oh yes, I do understand why we suffer a steep drop in the professional game. That is clear to all who analyze these things. However, that is not the point. The point is if coaching, conditioning and training was all there was to success in soccer, Nigeria should be absolute shyt at the age-grade level...darn right doodoo. Our boys at 17, 21 etc (official or otherwise) have received nowhere close to the preparation of the factory managed Europeans. So why then are we among the most successful at age grade competitions.

If you give Rohr our U17 team now, he will go and be sleeping in European academies looking for anyone who has an Ola or Olu or Okafor or Chi in their first/middle/last names and trying to convince them to come and play for us. He will raise a team. The team would be competent. But the team would also be pretty robotic in my opinion. There would be other ways to raise a team...going to the streets or the ramshackle academies of Nigeria. But he will refuse and tell you ‘conditioning, training, nutrition’....and some of you will gobble it up.

There are many ways to raise a competent team. But not so many to raise an optimal team. That takes work and a bit of flexibility.

Anyway deanotito.
No yawa.
We agree on some things, disagree on others.

The bottom line for all of us is to get the best Nigerian team out there, no sentiment.
We just all disagree on how.

I really do not like this imposed quota which has been coming for a while
Now it is here and we are going to have to deal with it.

I'm just dreading the backlash for all and sundry if things go wrong... not least the players themselves.
And it will come no less viciously from those campaigning for the quota system at the moment.

Nigerian no get dat kine loyalty.

But I am an eternal optimist, so fingers crossed....

[Dammy]

Thanks bro, nothing to add, you've said it all! I used to be taken by E11's prose before but not anymore. In Nigeria, there's a combination of the media, agents, social media influencers, working together to gain access to the SE for specific hb players.
Please E11and co, tell us what advantage inviting hb players will have on the local league? This is what they hide under but we have seen the pattern that once the player has Nigerian international written against his name, the next step is to move him outside the country to market him. They all hate on Rohr because he has spoilt the market for them! They claim to love the SE but they want us to return to a practice that caused us 2 successive CANs.
Rohr has made a rod for his back by the recent performances in the AFCON qualifiers but I would rather stick with him than go back to what E11 is advocating.
As exposed as E11 is, where in the world is a coach mandated to pick certain players and not given a free hand?

Why you do always assume anyone who points out Rohr flaws or has a contrary opinion is an agent or has an agenda.

You love SE so much, yet you were ´Anti - Keshi´...you didn´t have an agenda.

Other loves SE, they are ´Anti-Rohr´... according to you, they have an agenda.

Blame Pinnick for SE missing 2 successive CANs.

You don't get it and I doubt if you ever will! I was against some of the practices of the late legend as it had a detrimental effect on the SE. I still supported the SE and some members of your camp were surprised when I celebrated Keshi for winning AFCON. They assumed that everyone thinks like your lot, once they have reservations about a coach, they want the team to fail, so they can say "I told you so". The same sort of joy coming from your camp after the AFCON qualifiers against Sierra Leone. Remember how you people celebrated the SE's home loss to South Africa in an AFCON qualifier or do you want me to dig out the thread for you?
I'm all for sacking Rohr on the condition that a better coach can be found for the team but if the option is what your lot are angling for, then it's better to keep Rohr.
Ever since Stephen Keshi lost the job, you people have been carrying a grudge, when is it going to end?

[fabio]

You don't get it and I doubt if you ever will! I was against some of the practices of the late legend as it had a detrimental effect on the SE.

I still supported the SE and some members of your camp were surprised when I celebrated Keshi for winning AFCON.

They assumed that everyone thinks like your lot, once they have reservations about a coach, they want the team to fail, so they can say "I told you so".

The same sort of joy coming from your camp after the AFCON qualifiers against Sierra Leone.

Remember how you people celebrated the SE's home loss to South Africa in an AFCON qualifier or do you want me to dig out the thread for you?


I'm all for sacking Rohr on the condition that a better coach can be found for the team but if the option is what your lot are angling for, then it's better to keep Rohr.

Ever since Stephen Keshi lost the job, you people have been carrying a grudge, when is it going to end?

Clearly there is an agenda, which is unveiling before our eyes

I don´t belong to any camp! Apart from the TRUTH CAMP!

Please dig up the loss to South Africa, it would reveal some interesting post Do it man

[txj]

Damunk, I finally understand your issue. You’re so defensive about Rohr and interpret every criticism of his style in personal or personnel terms.

Maybe.
I was told the same thing when arguing Keshi's case and when Siasia was about to be fired.
I just think we can be too rash in our reactions to adversity. See an old post of mine below regarding Keshi and Siasia. I can be quite passionate about our SE coaches.

I'll let others evaluate the validity of the claims you make in the rest of your post, including the fact that you still don't seem to appreciate the reasons why we excel in youth tournaments and then suffer a steep drop in performance in the full professional game.

Oh yes, I do understand why we suffer a steep drop in the professional game. That is clear to all who analyze these things. However, that is not the point. The point is if coaching, conditioning and training was all there was to success in soccer, Nigeria should be absolute shyt at the age-grade level...darn right doodoo. Our boys at 17, 21 etc (official or otherwise) have received nowhere close to the preparation of the factory managed Europeans. So why then are we among the most successful at age grade competitions.

I seriously doubt that you do understand! Our age grade success is only testimony to the base of natural talent we have, and of course our willingness to cheat. But beyond these, success at @ the U17/21 level is not simply a matter of winning trophies. Its rather your ability to transform the talent, a level that we have serially failed!

If you give Rohr our U17 team now, he will go and be sleeping in European academies looking for anyone who has an Ola or Olu or Okafor or Chi in their first/middle/last names and trying to convince them to come and play for us. He will raise a team. The team would be competent. But the team would also be pretty robotic in my opinion. There would be other ways to raise a team...going to the streets or the ramshackle academies of Nigeria. But he will refuse and tell you ‘conditioning, training, nutrition’....and some of you will gobble it up.

There are many ways to raise a competent team. But not so many to raise an optimal team. That takes work and a bit of flexibility.

The NT is the apex of any nation's game. Until we invest massively in developing true professionally clubs and a quality league, no NT coach will base selection on HB players, and it doesn't matter the nationality of the coach.

[Dammy]

You don't get it and I doubt if you ever will! I was against some of the practices of the late legend as it had a detrimental effect on the SE.

I still supported the SE and some members of your camp were surprised when I celebrated Keshi for winning AFCON.

They assumed that everyone thinks like your lot, once they have reservations about a coach, they want the team to fail, so they can say "I told you so".

The same sort of joy coming from your camp after the AFCON qualifiers against Sierra Leone.

Remember how you people celebrated the SE's home loss to South Africa in an AFCON qualifier or do you want me to dig out the thread for you?


I'm all for sacking Rohr on the condition that a better coach can be found for the team but if the option is what your lot are angling for, then it's better to keep Rohr.

Ever since Stephen Keshi lost the job, you people have been carrying a grudge, when is it going to end?

Clearly there is an agenda, which is unveiling before our eyes

I don´t belong to any camp! Apart from the TRUTH CAMP!

Please dig up the loss to South Africa, it would reveal some interesting post Do it man

Your relative TRUTH!!