A Lot of players have turned us down. Why?

[The YeyeMan]

EMIR,

Here is the point. These guys are young men. They are not robots.

They will make the same decision that men of their age will make i.e. they are more comfortable being with their friends and in more familiar surroundings and that, right now, is in Europe and not Nigeria. Forget football, they are not robots, they have friends, they have social networks beyond being on a football field. Their parents, if in the same choice-making situation, may actually take a different route given the fact that the parents have mostly lived in Nigeria and have friends there. It matters.

The highlighted portion above is flawed or requires further explanation. Beyond being on a football field many of these guys hang out with other British-Nigerians! You must have been away from Europe for a minute. These kids aren't exclusively socialising with white people and drinking tea.

[Cellular]

The past year has certainly not been good to SE in recruiting top foreign born Nigerians . We laughed off Eye-bee in 2019 while looking forward to snatching Abraham and Tomori but they also turned us down. Since then we've been collecting NOs like Bigporker on ladies night at the lounge. These players seem to want nothing to do with us, particularly the so called British -Nigerians who love jollof rice, Davido but would rather join the queen's army.

The following players have all rejected Nigeria over the last yr.
Abraham,Tomori, Saka, Adarabioyo,Musiala, Udokhai, Torunarigha,Eze, Madueke and Olise. Even a 2nd rate goalie turned us down for Austrian Pali, another Alana type situation. Even those who have supposedly committed like Lookman and Ezibue are yet to be confirmed.

What is going on here? We're 0 for 14.

We have lost nothing.

How do you lose something you never had?

[Cellular]

BTW, I blame Pinnick and his infatuation with all things foreign.

If he actually believed in Naijarian born and bred players he would be devoting resources at the U20 and U23 level football... this is typically how we discover the up and coming players.

We have to have the right coaches and make sure we make the tournaments so we can showcase some of these players.

[Tobi17]

Adarabioyo apparently stated hw is fighting for a spot at the euros.

He has a better change of representing the UK at the Eurovision song contest. He's not going to any Euros.

Naija people and bad mouth

[EMIR KONGI JAFFI JOFFA]

Adarabioyo apparently stated hw is fighting for a spot at the euros.

He has a better change of representing the UK at the Eurovision song contest. He's not going to any Euros.

Naija people and bad mouth

Yeeeeaaaaa.....Yeyeman don finish Tosin. How can he claim he wants to go to Euros while fighting relegation.The boy is a true Nigerian.

[vancity eagle]

Adarabioyo apparently stated hw is fighting for a spot at the euros.

He has a better change of representing the UK at the Eurovision song contest. He's not going to any Euros.

Naija people and bad mouth

Yeeeeaaaaa.....Yeyeman don finish Tosin. How can he claim he wants to go to Euros while fighting relegation.The boy is a true Nigerian.

its actually quite absurd. Is this guy serious ?

[Next]

My question is: How many of these kids would Southgate cap? The list of them that are qualified to rep both countries are long and would Southgate start capping these players the moment they signify their intention of wanting to play for SE (not that many are saying so)? That would be too low, don't they think?!

And the kids are not helping themselves much: How many of them have gone to have a long playing carrier representing to countries compare to those who decided to play for the SE. History is always a very good teacher. I know decisions can be tough to make at their age but me always think this is where parental guidance comes into play(in most cases)!?

I do not know much about Naija soccer league, but I'm pretty sure there are some good players in that league. If the NFF is so keen on having foreign born naijarians play for the SE maybe they should introduce a percentage quota like 80 -20 % Foreign - Local players instead of their all out wanting-foreign-born-naijarians-policy and maybe invest more in the league, develop it!!!

Cheers

[Enugu II]

EMIR,

Here is the point. These guys are young men. They are not robots.

They will make the same decision that men of their age will make i.e. they are more comfortable being with their friends and in more familiar surroundings and that, right now, is in Europe and not Nigeria. Forget football, they are not robots, they have friends, they have social networks beyond being on a football field. Their parents, if in the same choice-making situation, may actually take a different route given the fact that the parents have mostly lived in Nigeria and have friends there. It matters.

The highlighted portion above is flawed or requires further explanation. Beyond being on a football field many of these guys hang out with other British-Nigerians! You must have been away from Europe for a minute. These kids aren't exclusively socialising with white people and drinking tea.

The Yeyeman,

It seems to me that you have completely missed with your analysis. See the above underlined in red. I just have a few questions given your response above:

1. Where are those British-Nigerians you mentioned above based? Are they residing in Nigeria or Britain?

2. Where did you get the idea that they are exclusively socializing with White people? Or do you assume that only White people reside in London?

3. You really think that the British-Nigerian kids are more comfortable with Nigerian culture than the British culture? Think again. Even their parents who socialized in Nigeria before going to Nigeria are more likely to be far more comfortable with the British culture than they are with Nigerian culture if they left Nigeria for several years! Look, ask your self why many guys born in Nigeria who go to USA or Britain and then return to Nigeria after several years fail to adjust to Nigeria. If you do not know, let me refer you to this piece to learn why -- works.bepress.com. The title of the work is In the Deep Valley with Several Mountains to Climb.

This not rocket science, the point you made above gives me hope. It means that you, at least, understand what the issues are but your conclusion is, however, surprising. Well, unless you are insinuating that those British-Nigerians reside in Lagos, Ibadan, or Enugu. The last time that I checked, they ride in London and Britain. Then, to be among those British-Nigerians that you refer to, it would seem to me that would mean being among them in London or Britain and not in Lagos or Ibadan.

The above is not rocket science but basic sociology.

It isn't about how their names sound like but about their comfort zone, about who their friends are, about where their closest friends reside. That is the bottom line.

Those that choose Nigeria will do so because (1) the urge for international football is paramount, (2) they assume that the opportunity to achieve #1 in their comfort zone <Britain> is closed out and thus the alternative (i.e. in Nigeria) is a viable fallback.

The above, thus far, is exactly what is playing out before us.

What is surprising, in my view, is how overwhelming it has been. I would have thought that this analysis would be accurate for say 60-70% of the players but so far it has been 100%. A shocking number if you ask me. I hoped that Bukayo Saka will be the first to buck that trend. He was a talent that Nigeria wanted and he clearly was on the radar of England, unlike the several currently playing for Nigeria at the moment.

The question is why is the situation what it is at the moment? In my view, there has to be a further explanation e.g. is it that they (the players) consider the Nigerian situation to be even a worse and beyond the issue of socialization? That is what we ought to find out.

Addendum
In fact, given the above, I have begun to rethink my position about inviting dual citizen players who are yet to break into the attention of the NT scouts in Europe. These players may be in reserve teams or at a lower division level (e.g. Maduka Okoye). Get these players early and get them cap-tied because the moment they are good enough to be scouted by Euro competitors, it has proven that we cannot truly compete for such players. Yes, if we change to this strategy, it means we will increase the amount of error in identifying good players but we also may well be in better position to snag a player with much greater potential than the ones we are getting at the moment.

[Eaglezbeak]

I think the NFF has probably gotten less aggressive after the humiliation of Abraham and Eze's wishy washy talk.

Who knows...WC is around the corner, some players have decisions to make.

When Nigeria comes across a real national team full of players that are willing to die for their flag and not a bunch of mercenaries from mid table and below league teams in England and Germany who just want to experience a few World Cup group games don’t be surprised with the result!How long are you people going to put up with no planing and shooting the dark trying to hit a small target whilst you’re opponents have night vision?

[The YeyeMan]

Enugu II, read your own post again. Here's the key part:

Forget football, they are not robots, they have friends, they have social networks beyond being on a football field.

This is correct. Now what I'm telling you is those social networks are often Nigerian influenced and feature other British-Nigerians. You're over-playing the residence angle - football is a transient profession. One year you're playing in London and the next you'll be in Turin or Leipzig. Your mode of thinking appears to suggest one can only have strong Nigerian influenced social networks if they reside in Nigeria. We know this to be false.

These kids are often very comfortable swimming in both Nigerian and British cultures.

Those that choose Nigeria will do so because (1) the urge for international football is paramount, (2) they assume that the opportunity to achieve #1 in their comfort zone <Britain> is closed out and thus the alternative (i.e. in Nigeria) is a viable fallback.

This is also correct. And it's been the case for years. Ameobi is one of the notable examples.

[Enugu II]

Enugu II, read your own post again. Here's the key part:

Forget football, they are not robots, they have friends, they have social networks beyond being on a football field.

This is correct. Now what I'm telling you is those social networks are often Nigerian influenced and feature other British-Nigerians. You're over-playing the residence angle - football is a transient profession. One year you're playing in London and the next you'll be in Turin or Leipzig. Your mode of thinking appears to suggest one can only have strong Nigerian influenced social networks if they reside in Nigeria. We know this to be false.

These kids are often very comfortable swimming in both Nigerian and British cultures.

Those that choose Nigeria will do so because (1) the urge for international football is paramount, (2) they assume that the opportunity to achieve #1 in their comfort zone <Britain> is closed out and thus the alternative (i.e. in Nigeria) is a viable fallback.

This is also correct. And it's been the case for years. Ameobi is one of the notable examples.

The Yeyeman,

It is not the residence but the socialization. When they are in camp, they will be socializing. Will they not? Where is that socialization easier for them? Is it in Nigeria with many strangers or is it in London among friends? Note that the English team will be in London and the Nigerian team in Lagos. If your argument is that the Nigerian team will be camped in London and these kids will be there to meet with their close friends, and go out to London establishments, etc then I can understand the point.

Bros, while these kids know about Nigerian culture, I can guarantee you that they will not be comfortable in it more than they are in the Nigerian-British culture which is decidedly different and in which they are immersed.

I have news for you, even their parents born and bred in Nigeria will not be comfortable in a Nigerian culture at the moment as they are in Nigerian-British culture which is different. The fallacy is that because they (Their parents) were born in Nigeria and grew up in Nigeria, that they will always be comfortable in Nigerian culture. What you fail to realize is that culture is not stagnant. Those individuals, having been away for a long period, are not going to be comfortable in the current Nigerian culture after years residing in Britain.

Back to the Issue
TBH, I am not surprised at all by the choices these kids have made. It is all predictable going by eons of available studies of this phenomenon. What is surprising, however, is the fact that we have yet to find one to buck the trend. That, to me, is shocking and signals that there are other variables also at play. What are those variables? I am currently uncertain.

[Damunk]

Prof, this is a complex issue and not as black and white as it might appear.
For example, when you mention how these players are "more comfortable with British culture", what exactly do you mean?
There are many facets to 'British culture' and some of the subsets are 'black British culture', 'British Asian culture' etc, some of which are closer to their cultures of heritage than the classic 'tea-drinking, Yorkshire pudding-eating, cricket-watching' culture of 'Queen & Country'.

I keep saying that your analysis and perspectives come from your American experience which is extremely different from the UK experience. We here in the UK are forever marvelling at the way African immigrants in particular seem to quickly wrap themselves in the American flag in ways that would actually be embarrassing for a black person in the UK.

My take has always been that the decision to choose or hold out for an England call-up is a financial one and an assessment of future career prospects much more than a profound, undying love for the Three Lions.

I can bet you that when it eventually comes about that a black player of English-Brazilian heritage born, bred and living in London is being courted by both the Brazilian national team and England, that kid is far more likely to choose Brazil, no shakin.

That time is coming. In fact, there are already a few black kids of dual British and European nationalities that are snubbing England for the European nation. If I'm not mistaken, one of them is also of Nigerian descent.

Until that becomes a common occurrence, this argument will always be going round in circles.

[Enugu II]

Prof, this is a complex issue and not as black and white as it might appear.
For example, when you mention how these players are "more comfortable with British culture", what exactly do you mean?
There are many facets to 'British culture' and some of the subsets are 'black British culture', 'British Asian culture' etc, some of which are closer to their cultures of heritage than the classic 'tea-drinking, Yorkshire pudding-eating, cricket-watching' culture of 'Queen & Country'.

I keep saying that your analysis and perspectives come from your American experience which is extremely different from the UK experience. We here in the UK are forever marvelling at the way African immigrants in particular seem to quickly wrap themselves in the American flag in ways that would actually be embarrassing for a black person in the UK.

My take has always been that the decision to choose or hold out for an England call-up is a financial one and an assessment of future career prospects much more than a profound, undying love for the Three Lions.

I can bet you that when it eventually comes about that a black player of English-Brazilian heritage born, bred and living in London is being courted by both the Brazilian national team and England, that kid is far more likely to choose Brazil, no shakin.

That time is coming. In fact, there are already a few black kids of dual British and European nationalities that are snubbing England for the European nation. If I'm not mistaken, one of them is also of Nigerian descent.

Until that becomes a common occurrence, this argument will always be going round in circles.

Damunk,

Of course, it is far more complex than the forum allows space. However, you have been writing about the difference in Britain but the suppositions that I have put out since have been far more buttressed by the decisions taken by these players than those you put forth. That tells me that I am not far from what the reality is. In fact, I would argue that I have been far more astonished by how extreme the data shows now because I did not expect ut, frankl y, to be as stark as it is now.

My question is why is it? What exactly explains this astonishing results given not just my ratherher tempered proposition or yours that actually would suggest an entirely different outcome. What is the explanation for this?

[fabio]

My theory. (England only).

I believe Gareth Southgate willingness to cap young players, mean young players (who could play for other countries) will play for Three Lions.

Previous English managers would never have capped Jadon Sancho, Tammy, Tomori, Mason Mount and Jude Bellingham etc at such a young age, at best they would have been squad players.

[maceo4]

Prof, this is a complex issue and not as black and white as it might appear.
For example, when you mention how these players are "more comfortable with British culture", what exactly do you mean?
There are many facets to 'British culture' and some of the subsets are 'black British culture', 'British Asian culture' etc, some of which are closer to their cultures of heritage than the classic 'tea-drinking, Yorkshire pudding-eating, cricket-watching' culture of 'Queen & Country'.

I keep saying that your analysis and perspectives come from your American experience which is extremely different from the UK experience. We here in the UK are forever marvelling at the way African immigrants in particular seem to quickly wrap themselves in the American flag in ways that would actually be embarrassing for a black person in the UK.

My take has always been that the decision to choose or hold out for an England call-up is a financial one and an assessment of future career prospects much more than a profound, undying love for the Three Lions.

I can bet you that when it eventually comes about that a black player of English-Brazilian heritage born, bred and living in London is being courted by both the Brazilian national team and England, that kid is far more likely to choose Brazil, no shakin.

That time is coming. In fact, there are already a few black kids of dual British and European nationalities that are snubbing England for the European nation. If I'm not mistaken, one of them is also of Nigerian descent.

Until that becomes a common occurrence, this argument will always be going round in circles.

Brazil is a top footballing country with proper facilities so nobody will mind making that switch as opposed to an s-hole country with s-hole like facilities throughout the continent. Who wants to deal with that wahala like the Salone stadium CAF just shutdown? I can imagine how the likes of Akpoguma were feeling being subjected to that. Not to talk of branding and chance to take your career to the next level.

[Damunk]

Prof, this is a complex issue and not as black and white as it might appear.
For example, when you mention how these players are "more comfortable with British culture", what exactly do you mean?
There are many facets to 'British culture' and some of the subsets are 'black British culture', 'British Asian culture' etc, some of which are closer to their cultures of heritage than the classic 'tea-drinking, Yorkshire pudding-eating, cricket-watching' culture of 'Queen & Country'.

I keep saying that your analysis and perspectives come from your American experience which is extremely different from the UK experience. We here in the UK are forever marvelling at the way African immigrants in particular seem to quickly wrap themselves in the American flag in ways that would actually be embarrassing for a black person in the UK.

My take has always been that the decision to choose or hold out for an England call-up is a financial one and an assessment of future career prospects much more than a profound, undying love for the Three Lions.

I can bet you that when it eventually comes about that a black player of English-Brazilian heritage born, bred and living in London is being courted by both the Brazilian national team and England, that kid is far more likely to choose Brazil, no shakin.

That time is coming. In fact, there are already a few black kids of dual British and European nationalities that are snubbing England for the European nation. If I'm not mistaken, one of them is also of Nigerian descent.

Until that becomes a common occurrence, this argument will always be going round in circles.

Brazil is a top footballing country with proper facilities so nobody will mind making that switch as opposed to an s-hole country with s-hole like facilities throughout the continent. Who wants to deal with that wahala like the Salone stadium CAF just shutdown? I can imagine how the likes of Akpoguma were feeling being subjected to that. Not to talk of branding and chance to take your career to the next level.

S-hole comments aside, it sounds as if you are agreeing with me.

[maceo4]

Prof, this is a complex issue and not as black and white as it might appear.
For example, when you mention how these players are "more comfortable with British culture", what exactly do you mean?
There are many facets to 'British culture' and some of the subsets are 'black British culture', 'British Asian culture' etc, some of which are closer to their cultures of heritage than the classic 'tea-drinking, Yorkshire pudding-eating, cricket-watching' culture of 'Queen & Country'.

I keep saying that your analysis and perspectives come from your American experience which is extremely different from the UK experience. We here in the UK are forever marvelling at the way African immigrants in particular seem to quickly wrap themselves in the American flag in ways that would actually be embarrassing for a black person in the UK.

My take has always been that the decision to choose or hold out for an England call-up is a financial one and an assessment of future career prospects much more than a profound, undying love for the Three Lions.

I can bet you that when it eventually comes about that a black player of English-Brazilian heritage born, bred and living in London is being courted by both the Brazilian national team and England, that kid is far more likely to choose Brazil, no shakin.

That time is coming. In fact, there are already a few black kids of dual British and European nationalities that are snubbing England for the European nation. If I'm not mistaken, one of them is also of Nigerian descent.

Until that becomes a common occurrence, this argument will always be going round in circles.

Brazil is a top footballing country with proper facilities so nobody will mind making that switch as opposed to an s-hole country with s-hole like facilities throughout the continent. Who wants to deal with that wahala like the Salone stadium CAF just shutdown? I can imagine how the likes of Akpoguma were feeling being subjected to that. Not to talk of branding and chance to take your career to the next level.

S-hole comments aside, it sounds as if you are agreeing with me.

Not exactly, I’m agreeing that Brazil is more of a viable choice that is at equal or higher footing with three Lions but I wouldn’t necessarily say they’d likely pick them. The likes of Thiago and Diego Costa made the opposite choice. My point is there really isn’t a ‘choice’ when it’s between England and a lesser, s-hole country It’s like having a choice between 2 models vs a model and Precious...I mean bless her heart but come on...

[Damunk]

Prof, this is a complex issue and not as black and white as it might appear.
For example, when you mention how these players are "more comfortable with British culture", what exactly do you mean?
There are many facets to 'British culture' and some of the subsets are 'black British culture', 'British Asian culture' etc, some of which are closer to their cultures of heritage than the classic 'tea-drinking, Yorkshire pudding-eating, cricket-watching' culture of 'Queen & Country'.

I keep saying that your analysis and perspectives come from your American experience which is extremely different from the UK experience. We here in the UK are forever marvelling at the way African immigrants in particular seem to quickly wrap themselves in the American flag in ways that would actually be embarrassing for a black person in the UK.

My take has always been that the decision to choose or hold out for an England call-up is a financial one and an assessment of future career prospects much more than a profound, undying love for the Three Lions.

I can bet you that when it eventually comes about that a black player of English-Brazilian heritage born, bred and living in London is being courted by both the Brazilian national team and England, that kid is far more likely to choose Brazil, no shakin.

That time is coming. In fact, there are already a few black kids of dual British and European nationalities that are snubbing England for the European nation. If I'm not mistaken, one of them is also of Nigerian descent.

Until that becomes a common occurrence, this argument will always be going round in circles.

Damunk,

Of course, it is far more complex than the forum allows space. However, you have been writing about the difference in Britain but the suppositions that I have put out since have been far more buttressed by the decisions taken by these players than those you put forth. That tells me that I am not far from what the reality is. In fact, I would argue that I have been far more astonished by how extreme the data shows now because I did not expect ut, frankl y, to be as stark as it is now.

My question is why is it? What exactly explains this astonishing results given not just my ratherher tempered proposition or yours that actually would suggest an entirely different outcome. What is the explanation for this?

Prof, I've told you already - career prospects, financial rewards. Add to that, 'prestige'.
All of these are very subjective perspectives that these young players hold, but is there any evidence to support their calculations?

Iwobi's or Ndidi's salaries, allowances and market values are little different from what they would have been if they'd played a handful of games for England (I'm just using Ndidi to make a point had he been England-eligible). It can even be credibly argued that an Iwobi with say, 25 Nigeria caps could be valued much higher than an Abraham with 5 England caps or a 25-cap Ndidi higher than a 5-cap Tomori of England, depending on the direction their careers are headed at any point in time.

So their financial and career prospects are less about country of representation and more about what they do on the pitch. Even a 25 cap Iwobi of Nigeria could be valued higher than a 25cap Abraham of England depending on what they're doing on that pitch

Prestige? Again, it is debatable.
Say Nigeria reaches the S/F of the world cup. Or knocks England out of the W/C. Or both. Just a scenario.
The profile of the SE team is boosted overnight, just like it was in 1994.
Suddenly, making a choice between England and Nigeria becomes a little easier.

This is why I gave the hypothetical example of the English-Brazilian kid. Like maceo4 said, "Brazil is a top footballing country and nobody would mind making that switch..".

IMHO, 'socialisation' is not top of the list when these kids make their international choices.
Its career prospects and the moment they begin to realise their careers are not likely to be adversely affected as long as they continue to deliver on the pitch, the more likely they are to choose other options.

At the end of the day, the socialisation you speak about is, for these young black men (and in no particular order), an acknowledgement amongst a) their fellow professionals b) their families and c) their peers and the black community as a whole.

For a) and b) they have guaranteed acknowledgement regardless of whatever choices they make. However, with c) you'd be surprised how much additional "respec" they'd receive from within the black community simply for turning down England ('Babylon') and repping Nigeria or Jamaica or Ghana at the World Cup.

That's why I say this is a complex issue, far deeper than just 'socialisation' which itself is layered as I have pointed out. This is the only point on which we differ.

Its a British thing which I don't expect you guys over in America to fully appreciate.
You need to live here to fully understand what we mean when we repeatedly refer to Lord Tebbit's Cricket Test which underpins much of my argument.

Anyway, its just a perspective.
Maybe one day, we can ask the players themselves.
.

[Damunk]

I think the NFF has probably gotten less aggressive after the humiliation of Abraham and Eze's wishy washy talk.

Who knows...WC is around the corner, some players have decisions to make.

When Nigeria comes across a real national team full of players that are willing to die for their flag and not a bunch of mercenaries from mid table and below league teams in England and Germany who just want to experience a few World Cup group games don’t be surprised with the result!How long are you people going to put up with no planing and shooting the dark trying to hit a small target whilst you’re opponents have night vision?

This is your anger and frustration coming through loud and clear.
No offence but you make a very simplistic argument.
It is obvious you have no idea what informs the choices these players make.

One day, we will hear them speak openly and frankly about this increasingly common dilemma which is not going to disappear any time soon.

[aruako1]

I think the NFF has probably gotten less aggressive after the humiliation of Abraham and Eze's wishy washy talk.

Who knows...WC is around the corner, some players have decisions to make.

When Nigeria comes across a real national team full of players that are willing to die for their flag and not a bunch of mercenaries from mid table and below league teams in England and Germany who just want to experience a few World Cup group games don’t be surprised with the result!How long are you people going to put up with no planing and shooting the dark trying to hit a small target whilst you’re opponents have night vision?

This is your anger and frustration coming through loud and clear.
No offence but you make a very simplistic argument.
It is obvious you have no idea what informs the choices these players make.

One day, we will hear them speak openly and frankly about this increasingly common dilemma which is not going to disappear any time soon.

I never understand the animation towards these players. They are within their rights to choose one country over the other. But we should make our jersey something to aspire to, not something offered on a platter to those who might not appreciate it. We should focus on those who are 100% committed to the cause. If others join the party later, fine. Iwobi did not waver in his commitment - I'll take him over a more talented player until the talent player matches his commitment.

[Next]

I never understand the animation towards these players. They are within their rights to choose one country over the other. But we should make our jersey something to aspire to, not something offered on a platter to those who might not appreciate it. We should focus on those who are 100% committed to the cause. If others join the party later, fine. Iwobi did not waver in his commitment - I'll take him over a more talented player until the talent player matches his commitment.

@aruako1 My sentiment too! Couldn't have said it better.

cheers

[Enugu II]

Damunk,

I think you have introduced a classic red herring to the argument. The argument, to be clear, is why are these players not choosing Nigeria at the moment. I think that reminder is necessary.

Instead, it appears that you have introduced a completely different issue. If not Brazil why not compare why an Indian kid who is pretty good may also choose Nigeria instead of India if the possibility to play for Nigeria is available as well? Those scenarios require other issues that stretch to possibility of getting to the WC itself, etc. We can complexisize the argument but that, in my view, is an attempt to obfuscate TBH.

The simple point is we are trying to figure out why the kids available now to play for Nigeria and England are overwhelmingly choosing England and not Nigeria. It is not about choosing Brazil, India, Swaziland, or Tahiti. In my view, the reason they are making that choice is one of socialization when one has to make the choice of England v Nigeria.

Prof, this is a complex issue and not as black and white as it might appear.
For example, when you mention how these players are "more comfortable with British culture", what exactly do you mean?
There are many facets to 'British culture' and some of the subsets are 'black British culture', 'British Asian culture' etc, some of which are closer to their cultures of heritage than the classic 'tea-drinking, Yorkshire pudding-eating, cricket-watching' culture of 'Queen & Country'.

I keep saying that your analysis and perspectives come from your American experience which is extremely different from the UK experience. We here in the UK are forever marvelling at the way African immigrants in particular seem to quickly wrap themselves in the American flag in ways that would actually be embarrassing for a black person in the UK.

My take has always been that the decision to choose or hold out for an England call-up is a financial one and an assessment of future career prospects much more than a profound, undying love for the Three Lions.

I can bet you that when it eventually comes about that a black player of English-Brazilian heritage born, bred and living in London is being courted by both the Brazilian national team and England, that kid is far more likely to choose Brazil, no shakin.

That time is coming. In fact, there are already a few black kids of dual British and European nationalities that are snubbing England for the European nation. If I'm not mistaken, one of them is also of Nigerian descent.

Until that becomes a common occurrence, this argument will always be going round in circles.

Damunk,

Of course, it is far more complex than the forum allows space. However, you have been writing about the difference in Britain but the suppositions that I have put out since have been far more buttressed by the decisions taken by these players than those you put forth. That tells me that I am not far from what the reality is. In fact, I would argue that I have been far more astonished by how extreme the data shows now because I did not expect ut, frankl y, to be as stark as it is now.

My question is why is it? What exactly explains this astonishing results given not just my ratherher tempered proposition or yours that actually would suggest an entirely different outcome. What is the explanation for this?

Prof, I've told you already - career prospects, financial rewards. Add to that, 'prestige'.
All of these are very subjective perspectives that these young players hold, but is there any evidence to support their calculations?

Iwobi's or Ndidi's salaries, allowances and market values are little different from what they would have been if they'd played a handful of games for England (I'm just using Ndidi to make a point had he been England-eligible). It can even be credibly argued that an Iwobi with say, 25 Nigeria caps could be valued much higher than an Abraham with 5 England caps or a 25-cap Ndidi higher than a 5-cap Tomori of England, depending on the direction their careers are headed at any point in time.

So their financial and career prospects are less about country of representation and more about what they do on the pitch. Even a 25 cap Iwobi of Nigeria could be valued higher than a 25cap Abraham of England depending on what they're doing on that pitch

Prestige? Again, it is debatable.
Say Nigeria reaches the S/F of the world cup. Or knocks England out of the W/C. Or both. Just a scenario.
The profile of the SE team is boosted overnight, just like it was in 1994.
Suddenly, making a choice between England and Nigeria becomes a little easier.

This is why I gave the hypothetical example of the English-Brazilian kid. Like maceo4 said, "Brazil is a top footballing country and nobody would mind making that switch..".

IMHO, 'socialisation' is not top of the list when these kids make their international choices.
Its career prospects and the moment they begin to realise their careers are not likely to be adversely affected as long as they continue to deliver on the pitch, the more likely they are to choose other options.

At the end of the day, the socialisation you speak about is, for these young black men (and in no particular order), an acknowledgement amongst a) their fellow professionals b) their families and c) their peers and the black community as a whole.

For a) and b) they have guaranteed acknowledgement regardless of whatever choices they make. However, with c) you'd be surprised how much additional "respec" they'd receive from within the black community simply for turning down England ('Babylon') and repping Nigeria or Jamaica or Ghana at the World Cup.

That's why I say this is a complex issue, far deeper than just 'socialisation' which itself is layered as I have pointed out. This is the only point on which we differ.

Its a British thing which I don't expect you guys over in America to fully appreciate.
You need to live here to fully understand what we mean when we repeatedly refer to Lord Tebbit's Cricket Test which underpins much of my argument.

Anyway, its just a perspective.
Maybe one day, we can ask the players themselves.
.

[Damunk]

Damunk,

I think you have introduced a classic red herring to the argument. The argument, to be clear, is why are these players not choosing Nigeria at the moment. I think that reminder is necessary.

Instead, it appears that you have introduced a completely different issue. If not Brazil why not compare why an Indian kid who is pretty good may also choose Nigeria instead of India if the possibility to play for Nigeria is available as well? Those scenarios require other issues that stretch to possibility of getting to the WC itself, etc. We can complexisize the argument but that, in my view, is an attempt to obfuscate TBH.

The simple point is we are trying to figure out why the kids available now to play for Nigeria and England are overwhelmingly choosing England and not Nigeria. It is not about choosing Brazil, India, Swaziland, or Tahiti. In my view, the reason they are making that choice is one of socialization when one has to make the choice of England v Nigeria.

Prof, this is a complex issue and not as black and white as it might appear.
For example, when you mention how these players are "more comfortable with British culture", what exactly do you mean?
There are many facets to 'British culture' and some of the subsets are 'black British culture', 'British Asian culture' etc, some of which are closer to their cultures of heritage than the classic 'tea-drinking, Yorkshire pudding-eating, cricket-watching' culture of 'Queen & Country'.

I keep saying that your analysis and perspectives come from your American experience which is extremely different from the UK experience. We here in the UK are forever marvelling at the way African immigrants in particular seem to quickly wrap themselves in the American flag in ways that would actually be embarrassing for a black person in the UK.

My take has always been that the decision to choose or hold out for an England call-up is a financial one and an assessment of future career prospects much more than a profound, undying love for the Three Lions.

I can bet you that when it eventually comes about that a black player of English-Brazilian heritage born, bred and living in London is being courted by both the Brazilian national team and England, that kid is far more likely to choose Brazil, no shakin.

That time is coming. In fact, there are already a few black kids of dual British and European nationalities that are snubbing England for the European nation. If I'm not mistaken, one of them is also of Nigerian descent.

Until that becomes a common occurrence, this argument will always be going round in circles.

Damunk,

Of course, it is far more complex than the forum allows space. However, you have been writing about the difference in Britain but the suppositions that I have put out since have been far more buttressed by the decisions taken by these players than those you put forth. That tells me that I am not far from what the reality is. In fact, I would argue that I have been far more astonished by how extreme the data shows now because I did not expect ut, frankl y, to be as stark as it is now.

My question is why is it? What exactly explains this astonishing results given not just my ratherher tempered proposition or yours that actually would suggest an entirely different outcome. What is the explanation for this?

Prof, I've told you already - career prospects, financial rewards. Add to that, 'prestige'.
All of these are very subjective perspectives that these young players hold, but is there any evidence to support their calculations?

Iwobi's or Ndidi's salaries, allowances and market values are little different from what they would have been if they'd played a handful of games for England (I'm just using Ndidi to make a point had he been England-eligible). It can even be credibly argued that an Iwobi with say, 25 Nigeria caps could be valued much higher than an Abraham with 5 England caps or a 25-cap Ndidi higher than a 5-cap Tomori of England, depending on the direction their careers are headed at any point in time.

So their financial and career prospects are less about country of representation and more about what they do on the pitch. Even a 25 cap Iwobi of Nigeria could be valued higher than a 25cap Abraham of England depending on what they're doing on that pitch

Prestige? Again, it is debatable.
Say Nigeria reaches the S/F of the world cup. Or knocks England out of the W/C. Or both. Just a scenario.
The profile of the SE team is boosted overnight, just like it was in 1994.
Suddenly, making a choice between England and Nigeria becomes a little easier.

This is why I gave the hypothetical example of the English-Brazilian kid. Like maceo4 said, "Brazil is a top footballing country and nobody would mind making that switch..".

IMHO, 'socialisation' is not top of the list when these kids make their international choices.
Its career prospects and the moment they begin to realise their careers are not likely to be adversely affected as long as they continue to deliver on the pitch, the more likely they are to choose other options.

At the end of the day, the socialisation you speak about is, for these young black men (and in no particular order), an acknowledgement amongst a) their fellow professionals b) their families and c) their peers and the black community as a whole.

For a) and b) they have guaranteed acknowledgement regardless of whatever choices they make. However, with c) you'd be surprised how much additional "respec" they'd receive from within the black community simply for turning down England ('Babylon') and repping Nigeria or Jamaica or Ghana at the World Cup.

That's why I say this is a complex issue, far deeper than just 'socialisation' which itself is layered as I have pointed out. This is the only point on which we differ.

Its a British thing which I don't expect you guys over in America to fully appreciate.
You need to live here to fully understand what we mean when we repeatedly refer to Lord Tebbit's Cricket Test which underpins much of my argument.

Anyway, its just a perspective.
Maybe one day, we can ask the players themselves.
.

OK, Prof.