Formation ko, Formashon nii. Na Formation we go chop?

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Billybones
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Post by Billybones »

Dodo,

What formation does Brazil play? No be 0-0-10? Soccer is a free flowing game. All this talk of 'formashon' is useless if players are unwilling to fight for ball, if they are unwilling to force opposing players to make errant passes that they can capitalise on, if they are unwilling to force defenders to make hasty decisions that will result in free-kicks around the 18-yard box that players like Okocha can score (he scored 2 goals from free-kicks in his last game with Bolton).
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Post by mastermind »

cic old boy wrote:Mastermind: You don't get it. We were meant to play 4-4-2 yesterday, but used the wrong personnel.
It's still not 4-4-2. The right Players make the formation to work. If u play 1 yobo and 8 players like okocha and 1 agali in a game, ur formation will be 1-8-1. There is no way utaka will turn into finidi all of a sudden cos his playing as a winger, that is not his position.

Next game he should play seyi and ekpong as DM, okocha as AM, ikedia as a winger and utaka as support striker and agba as a lone striker.
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Post by omotori »

OK, if di problem no be formashion, naim you wan talk say na bicos dem players no hustle well-well.

No whose fault be dat. Shebi na coach supposed to pik the playas wey fit hustle. on top coach suppose to motivate dem well well.

Abi you wan talk say the playas no sabi hustle. You no see as dem day hustle for dem clubs. So why dem no go hustle for Nigeria unless some other problem dey inside the wahala.

if na law you wan study wey dem come put you for physics class, you tink say if una take hustle read well-well you go fit carry first for the exam ?
Last edited by omotori on Wed Jan 28, 2004 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Dodo »

Billybones wrote:Dodo,

What formation does Brazil play? No be 0-0-10? Soccer is a free flowing game. All this talk of 'formashon' is useless if players are unwilling to fight for ball, if they are unwilling to force opposing players to make errant passes that they can capitalise on, if they are unwilling to force defenders to make hasty decisions that will result in free-kicks around the 18-yard box that players like Okocha can score (he scored 2 goals from free-kicks in his last game with Bolton).
Please show me the game Brasil play 0-0-10 she na James Bond companion be dem coach. Football is a free flowing game that is aided by the positions the outfield players occupy. The game is even played faster if the players are played in their rightful positions. Ur talking hustling this hustling that, Hustling is part of the tactics that the team will use to gain control of the ball and use it to the common goal of the 22 players on the pitch. SCORE
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Post by omotori »

Next game he should play seyi and ekpong as DM, okocha as AM, ikedia as a winger and utaka as support striker and agba as a lone striker.
now we are talking.
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Post by Novocaine »

Dodo wrote:
akidi wrote:Blame CCC for efrithing...If una think say una betta, make una apply for the job...

Billybones, no mind them...Na formation we go chop...
no be formation u go chop, na headless chickens wey dey mirandabout u go chop.

Una wey dey talk say formation no matter, we might as well play 10 strikers randomly and see how we do. we will ask them to hustle though
Yes me I bin chop headless chicken. Anybody who say hin no dey chop shicken na LIAR! LIAR! PANTS ON FIRE!
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Post by Ugbowo »

With formations come instructions and responsibilities. Sometimes these hold back ur game sometimes they enhance it. We can't be running out there playing anywhere belle face type soccer. Chukwu had his plan, ha had his tactics and they were there for all of us to see! Just terrible.
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Post by Billybones »

Dodo,

U still did not answer the question. What formashon does Brazil play? When U see Cafu running from the Right back (RB) to supply crosses on the Right wing (RW), What position is Cafu playing? When U see Roberto Carlos running from LB to supply crosses on the LW, what position is R. Carlos playing? These players are playing free flowing football. They are hustling for the ball and preventing opposing teams any time to settle and do anything meaningful.
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Post by Novocaine »

omotori wrote:OK, if di problem no be formashion, naim you wan talk say na bicos dem players no hustle well-well.

No whose fault be dat. Shebi na coach supposed to pik the playas wey fit hustle. on top coach suppose to motivate dem well well.

if na law you wan study wey dem come put you for physics class, you tink say if una take hustle read well-well you go fit carry first for the exam ?
B/4 U blame the coach at least players should show up for training camp first. If NFA allow team Captain Okocha and his deputy Kanu to wander into training at their convenience is it fair to blame coach when the miracle of a win is not forthcoming.
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Post by Molue Conductor »

your depth of socer is very shallow(IMHO) hustling for the ball is in no way a substitute for organized football. in the first place who said both cannot be done ? If you throw 11 strikers on the filed and tell them to hustle, that is a recepie for disaster, the problem yesterday is two fold.

1a) the players lackadasical approach to the game
1b) Lack of a comanding/ Authoritative CB or Keeper to keep the defense organized

2) Wrong players playing the right formation.

pay little attention to the formation ramblers, if we play 4-4-2 with the right players we will do well in the tournament.

the midfield must have good offensive and average defensive skills save the AM who need not be involved with defending..this is the way to play 4-4-2. Putting 11 Aghahowa's in a 4-4-2 formation does not constitute the best team. (we are really missing ribo too)
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Post by Billybones »

Scourge,

When U say an AM need not be involved in defending, this is the kind of Bigmanism displayed yesterday by Okocha and Kanu that resulted in our embarrassment (goes to show your in-depth knowledge of football). In order to achieve success on the pitch every player must play defense once his team has lost possession of the ball. Playing defense does not mean waiting until the opposition gets to your 18-yard box b/4 closing them down, it is hustling and harassing them thereby preventing the opposition from building an attack from their half of the field (similar to full court pressure in basket ball).

When a player is harassed he has little time to deliberate on the ball and is more likely to lose possession in dangerous territory. It is then that U can take advantage by launching attacks on ill prepared defenses forcing them to concede goals or free-kicks (which Okocha can score from). Well I guess I don’t need to tell U this, after all U are a self proclaimed soccer guru.
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Post by Molue Conductor »

Billybones wrote:When U say an AM need not be involved in defending, this is the kind of Bigmanism displayed yesterday by Okocha and Kanu that resulted in our embarrassment (goes to show your in-depth knowledge of football). In order to achieve success on the pitch every player must play defense once his team has lost possession of the ball. Playing defense does not mean waiting until the opposition gets to your 18-yard box b/4 closing them down, it is hustling and harassing them thereby preventing the opposition from building an attack from their half of the field (similar to full court pressure in basket ball).

When a player is harassed he has little time to deliberate on the ball and is more likely to lose possession in dangerous territory. It is then that U can take advantage by launching attacks on ill prepared defenses forcing them to concede goals or free-kicks (which Okocha can score from). Well I guess I don’t need to tell U this, after all U are a self proclaimed soccer guru.
thank you for doctoring my post, but i said THE AM not AN AM

Billybones where did i say in my post that hustling is not important? where did i say that the AM should not hustle? i said specifically that the AM NEED not have defensive skills. Defending and hustling arent the same thing, the AM must fight for every ball he can, but his PRIORIY is not defending. that is left for the other three midfielders.

to make it simple for you if you still don't understand what i mean, Scholes is a Good AM, he has almost 0 defensive skills but he hustles. if MAN U are playing a weak team scholes remains up front, if manu are playing a strong team, scholes tracks bak to put PRESSURE on the other teams attack hence my statement, The AM need not have defensice skills

if you need it in point form,
the AM does not need defending skills because
1) his main job is feeding the striker
2) if needed he can put pressure on the opposing strikers forcing them into fast passes

PS: on the part highlighted red, don't compare my statements with chukwu's line up yesterday, that is an insult to me :mrgreen:
Last edited by Molue Conductor on Thu Jan 29, 2004 2:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Molue Conductor »

Billybones wrote:Dodo,

U still did not answer the question. What formashon does Brazil play? When U see Cafu running from the Right back (RB) to supply crosses on the Right wing (RW), What position is Cafu playing? When U see Roberto Carlos running from LB to supply crosses on the LW, what position is R. Carlos playing? These players are playing free flowing football. They are hustling for the ball and preventing opposing teams any time to settle and do anything meaningful.
Brazil is playing a modified 5-3-2 (mor liek a 5-1-3-1), and with that set up one of the the ROLES of the Wing back to supply crosses. did you notice ronaldo and rivaldo don't track back to defend? the only hustle players when they are with range. Surly u don't want ronaldo chasing down neuville all the way back to his own 18 yard box.
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Post by Billybones »

Scourge,

U said

"did you notice ronaldo and rivaldo don't track back to defend? they only hustle players when they are within range. Surely u don't want ronaldo chasing down neuville all the way back to his own 18 yard box".

No one is suggesting that Okocha and Kanu chase players to Naija's 18-yard box, all we are saying is that they should pressure players close-by in order to force them to make mistakes. In yesterday’s game every Naija player was guilty of giving the Moroccan player 2 much time/space to survey the field and pick out the best passing option. When these yeye eagus dey play for their club sides U go see how they go hustle, U go tink say fire dey 4 their yansh.

When U hustle and pressurize a team in their own half of the field U disrupt any arteries supplying ball to strikers upfront thereby rendering even the most prolific scorer insignificant. In addition U can win possession of the ball (even 30% of the time) from which U can terrorize ill prepared defenses.
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Post by Dodo »

Billybones wrote:Dodo,

U still did not answer the question. What formashon does Brazil play? When U see Cafu running from the Right back (RB) to supply crosses on the Right wing (RW), What position is Cafu playing? When U see Roberto Carlos running from LB to supply crosses on the LW, what position is R. Carlos playing? These players are playing free flowing football. They are hustling for the ball and preventing opposing teams any time to settle and do anything meaningful.
As a sensible forumer just told u Brasil at the last world cup under Big Phil Scolari played a 3-5-2 /5-3-2 formattion which graphically would look like this


---------------------------------Dida---------------------------
-------------Roque Junior-----Lucio------Anderson Polga
Cafu----------------------------------------------Roberto Carlos
----------------Kleberson------------Gilberto Silva
----------------------------------------Rivaldo
----------Ronaldinho
-------------------------------Ronaldo

I would love to exchange the physics of wing back play but if u cant see the differnce between formation, defence set up and hustling then what more can i say
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Post by cic old boy »

mastermind wrote:
cic old boy wrote:Mastermind: You don't get it. We were meant to play 4-4-2 yesterday, but used the wrong personnel.
It's still not 4-4-2. The right Players make the formation to work. If u play 1 yobo and 8 players like okocha and 1 agali in a game, ur formation will be 1-8-1. There is no way utaka will turn into finidi all of a sudden cos his playing as a winger, that is not his position.

Next game he should play seyi and ekpong as DM, okocha as AM, ikedia as a winger and utaka as support striker and agba as a lone striker.
So if the right players make the formation work, you are accepting my point that the problem was the personnel not the formation.
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Post by Yettycom »

as much as u need players who should hustle for the ball, u also need a technical foundation to translate that into effective play i.e scoring of goals. thus the need for formations. as we say in Economics, they are complementary "goods" and the multiplier effect of this, is a game deservably won.
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Post by Billybones »

The Bottom Line is that our loss to Morocco was as a result of lack of Hustle and not lack of Formation. For those who are not convinced about the hustle factor go and watch Brazil vs. England 2002 WC. The 2nd goal that Ronaldinho scored came about b/c Beckham shyed away from a tackle deep in the Brazilian half, consequently the Brazilian player got the ball, passed to Ronaldinho who dribbled all of England and scored the game winning goal.

If U watch the SE game again U will realize that the midfielders/attacker were shying away from tackles (Left, Right & Center). It was obvious they were saving themselves for their club sides. That is why I say to all da so called soccer guru’s on this site “It doesn’t matter what the hell kinda formation U play, if your players are not prepared to contest for the ball they might as well not be on the pitch”.
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Post by African Star »

The only thing I can say is that na formation Morroco take chop Nigeria
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Post by Novocaine »

African Star,

That is why U need to hustle so that U can breakdown the oppositons formations and score goals. For Goodness sake we lost b/c we could not score a single goal vs an inexperienced team. Is this what Nigeria has been reduced to?
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Post by crispgg »

Novocaine wrote:African Star,

That is why U need to hustle so that U can breakdown the oppositons formations and score goals. For Goodness sake we lost b/c we could not score a single goal vs an inexperienced team. Is this what Nigeria has been reduced to?
Yes now...abi you no know since?!!! :o
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Post by Dodo »

Billybones, to suggest that we lost because we didnt hustle is pure ludicracy. Are we meant to hustle WHEN WE HAVE THE BALL? Nigeria had 53% of the possession but did not use the ball to good effect, thats why we lost. Hustling or to give it its proper name Closing Down does not win u games only the ball if perfected. Besides huslting is part of the TACTICS that the team would employ during the game is very hard to perform throughout a game usless ofcourse u have 3 legs like Makelele

U mention Brasil england the FIRST goal scored by Brasil. Yes they hustled Beckham and also used their skill to get the ball to Ronaldinho who took on the back line and fed Rivaldo for the goal. But that goal didnt win them the game

Like i have said before, the players didnt close down the opposition and they allowed them too much space to pick their passes and crosses. We lost the game due to a lack of concentration and a meagre midfield
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Post by Molue Conductor »

Billybones wrote:The Bottom Line is that our loss to Morocco was as a result of lack of Hustle and not lack of Formation. For those who are not convinced about the hustle factor go and watch Brazil vs. England 2002 WC. The 2nd goal that Ronaldinho scored came about b/c Beckham shyed away from a tackle deep in the Brazilian half, consequently the Brazilian player got the ball, passed to Ronaldinho who dribbled all of England and scored the game winning goal.
If U watch the SE game again U will realize that the midfielders/attacker were shying away from tackles (Left, Right & Center). It was obvious they were saving themselves for their club sides. That is why I say to all da so called soccer guru’s on this site “It doesn’t matter what the hell kinda formation U play, if your players are not prepared to contest for the ball they might as well not be on the pitch”.
Billybones to save your cerdibility delete the part i highlighted in Bold

to understand the part underlined u must understand that there were too may attackers that is the reason for the shying away. if all our attackers had hustled we would have picked up at least one red card because they don't know how to tackle. the main point i am trying to make is that if we had the right personel on the pitch, the hustling would have come Naturally

again in point form.
1) nigeria Palyed too many attackers
2) The attackers have little tackling skills
3) we lost due to two reasons
3a) The players lackadasical approach to the game
3b) Wrong players playing the right formation.
4) it is ridiculus to say hustling ALONE determines who wins a game. Real MAdrid is one of the Greatest teams in the world, and the folowing players don't hustle when dispossesed: Ronaldo, Zidane, Figo. it's just not in their game.
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