SE and Foreign Born Players

[Damunk]

This is a very complicated topic.

I have read some brilliant articles on the subject, covering both sides of the argument, and I mean VERY sophisticated articles with tons of research, and even those seem to not resolve the issue.

From what I can see. There are a multitude of factors at play yet. This is pretty much as complex an issue

I am on my famed mobile phone where I don't like framing my arguments. So I'll do this messily.

1) The first facet is that it is the best playing the best
2) but even the above is lazy, because the theoretical pool of talent in Nigeria will VASTLY surpass anything that you would ever find in Europe. So essentially if there is any period where the pool in Europe is substantial, it means Nigeria as a nation is doing something wrong.
3) This is not a simple assertion, because participation rates and the culture of the game is actually BIGGER in Nigeria than in Europe. It is an infrastructural and systemic failure.
4) but at the same time it intersects with the wicked problem of neo-colonialism and globalisation. These are the offspring of professionals who in all reality should mostly never have found their way to Europe in the first instance. It is then a reversal of a brain drain. A positive offshoot of an initially negative migratory drive.

I can go on about the facets of the issue. But I will conclude by raising an important point, YES the different dimensions can and are contradicting one another. While we can simply say that this is the best we have for now. This is likely a case where success will breed failure. The more successful we become with this model, the more the rot in Nigerian football will fester, and yes prominent people in Nigerian football have raised the issue.

Morocco has actually taken the issue more seriously and they built an impressive academy in Sale, where at least three critical players have come from. But even they are likely scratching the issue lightly.

This by the way is not a Nigerian issue. Perhaps it explains why there have been so many upsets in this tournament. Around 30% otnthe players in this tournament are apparently European born. I have not corroborated myself, but what that reflects, on a slightly unrelated note is that the teams of today are not exactly the teams we think we know. That would explain the apparent incongruity in expectations.

You cannot look at any particular team and think that you understand their structure and history, because it has been upended.

This is actually pretty conclusive. It doesn't mean that this is simply a case of a few players opting for a change in their plans as FIFA might have thought when they paved the way for this process. This is actually an entire continent realising that its infrastructure is inadequate and using the necolonial connection to bridge the gap.

I will say this is fine, but it cannot be a short-sighted adventure. This pattern must in someway circle back to how to develop thr game in Africa. I have stayed this before and people on here scoffed at it.

What I know for certain, is that let's say that in 15 years time, the issue has been taken seriously. You would not possibly see 30% of the continents championship participants coming from a relatively small diaspora.

It is akin to saying that 30% of Dambe fighters will come from a small diaspora when both the population and culture of interest in the genre is many times larger at home. It makes no sense.

I do not propose that we shun any such players. That would be a foolish way of cheapening my argument. What I am saying is that the federations in Africa do now have a monumental task in front of them to not abandon those raised in the continent.

It is a matter of colossal urgency requiring billions of dollars of investment.
The reality is that we have new opportunities and connections with the diaspora now, and that is great, but the rate of that connection must be surpasse by the fervour to develop the game in Africa.

Think about what Morocco have tried to accomplish in Sale, but many fold greater. I don't think this is a small matter, and I suspect that if FIFA have any semblance of intelligence and integrity, they will in fact be the catalyst the project themselves.

It is highly unlikely that any well meaning administrator would come to the conclusions that the game in Africa can be abandoned.

Tbite,

Are you sure that people would even want to read your piece? Some have their minds CLOSED to new thinking or views that challenge their thought.

What you have written is very important and not just based on an outlandish write up, without rationalized thinking. It is an idea like this that our administrators need to carefully review. It is based on logic but requires someone who can deeply examine and question current beliefs about talent.

If we want to really optimize Nigerian talent base -- home and abroad -- what you laid out is the way to go. Some of the issues have been regularly broached here but some have simply turned a deaf ear. They are focused on simply getting boys grown in overseas academies even if they may be those not currently rated A national team talents in Europe. They are perceived to be better than seeking how to optimize a talent base that is possible with the demographic calculations that you insinuate. Some do not even want to consider it as a way to blend the best possible talents out there -- home and abroad. Instead, they want to stick only to those abroad.

It is problematic but rather than widen our thoughts and think about possibilities and a greater NT in the near future, we want to settle with what is left for us by the scouts of European national teams even when we could do much better by utilizing talents wherever they may be, both home and abroad. Just a minor example and this really is just scratching the surface -- the location of a goalkeeper today in South Africa was forced after years of attempting to force feed European based talent as the best that Nigeria can unearth. Yet, today we have a goalkeeper that is not from Europe and in my opinion may not even be the best possible goalkeeper that Nigeria can locate if only Nigeria will open its search to wider base of talented footballers.

Wow! This is ironic!

I’m quite shocked that there are so many false premises in Prof’s post.
Na wah.
Anyway, this is CE.

[airwolex]

This matter is overblown. Just use our best and most commited players. There are 6 foreign born Eagles players, where would we be without them?

[Enugu II]

This is a very complicated topic.

I have read some brilliant articles on the subject, covering both sides of the argument, and I mean VERY sophisticated articles with tons of research, and even those seem to not resolve the issue.

From what I can see. There are a multitude of factors at play yet. This is pretty much as complex an issue

I am on my famed mobile phone where I don't like framing my arguments. So I'll do this messily.

1) The first facet is that it is the best playing the best
2) but even the above is lazy, because the theoretical pool of talent in Nigeria will VASTLY surpass anything that you would ever find in Europe. So essentially if there is any period where the pool in Europe is substantial, it means Nigeria as a nation is doing something wrong.
3) This is not a simple assertion, because participation rates and the culture of the game is actually BIGGER in Nigeria than in Europe. It is an infrastructural and systemic failure.
4) but at the same time it intersects with the wicked problem of neo-colonialism and globalisation. These are the offspring of professionals who in all reality should mostly never have found their way to Europe in the first instance. It is then a reversal of a brain drain. A positive offshoot of an initially negative migratory drive.

I can go on about the facets of the issue. But I will conclude by raising an important point, YES the different dimensions can and are contradicting one another. While we can simply say that this is the best we have for now. This is likely a case where success will breed failure. The more successful we become with this model, the more the rot in Nigerian football will fester, and yes prominent people in Nigerian football have raised the issue.

Morocco has actually taken the issue more seriously and they built an impressive academy in Sale, where at least three critical players have come from. But even they are likely scratching the issue lightly.

This by the way is not a Nigerian issue. Perhaps it explains why there have been so many upsets in this tournament. Around 30% otnthe players in this tournament are apparently European born. I have not corroborated myself, but what that reflects, on a slightly unrelated note is that the teams of today are not exactly the teams we think we know. That would explain the apparent incongruity in expectations.

You cannot look at any particular team and think that you understand their structure and history, because it has been upended.

This is actually pretty conclusive. It doesn't mean that this is simply a case of a few players opting for a change in their plans as FIFA might have thought when they paved the way for this process. This is actually an entire continent realising that its infrastructure is inadequate and using the necolonial connection to bridge the gap.

I will say this is fine, but it cannot be a short-sighted adventure. This pattern must in someway circle back to how to develop thr game in Africa. I have stayed this before and people on here scoffed at it.

What I know for certain, is that let's say that in 15 years time, the issue has been taken seriously. You would not possibly see 30% of the continents championship participants coming from a relatively small diaspora.

It is akin to saying that 30% of Dambe fighters will come from a small diaspora when both the population and culture of interest in the genre is many times larger at home. It makes no sense.

I do not propose that we shun any such players. That would be a foolish way of cheapening my argument. What I am saying is that the federations in Africa do now have a monumental task in front of them to not abandon those raised in the continent.

It is a matter of colossal urgency requiring billions of dollars of investment.
The reality is that we have new opportunities and connections with the diaspora now, and that is great, but the rate of that connection must be surpasse by the fervour to develop the game in Africa.

Think about what Morocco have tried to accomplish in Sale, but many fold greater. I don't think this is a small matter, and I suspect that if FIFA have any semblance of intelligence and integrity, they will in fact be the catalyst the project themselves.

It is highly unlikely that any well meaning administrator would come to the conclusions that the game in Africa can be abandoned.

Tbite,

Are you sure that people would even want to read your piece? Some have their minds CLOSED to new thinking or views that challenge their thought.

What you have written is very important and not just based on an outlandish write up, without rationalized thinking. It is an idea like this that our administrators need to carefully review. It is based on logic but requires someone who can deeply examine and question current beliefs about talent.

If we want to really optimize Nigerian talent base -- home and abroad -- what you laid out is the way to go. Some of the issues have been regularly broached here but some have simply turned a deaf ear. They are focused on simply getting boys grown in overseas academies even if they may be those not currently rated A national team talents in Europe. They are perceived to be better than seeking how to optimize a talent base that is possible with the demographic calculations that you insinuate. Some do not even want to consider it as a way to blend the best possible talents out there -- home and abroad. Instead, they want to stick only to those abroad.

It is problematic but rather than widen our thoughts and think about possibilities and a greater NT in the near future, we want to settle with what is left for us by the scouts of European national teams even when we could do much better by utilizing talents wherever they may be, both home and abroad. Just a minor example and this really is just scratching the surface -- the location of a goalkeeper today in South Africa was forced after years of attempting to force feed European based talent as the best that Nigeria can unearth. Yet, today we have a goalkeeper that is not from Europe and in my opinion may not even be the best possible goalkeeper that Nigeria can locate if only Nigeria will open its search to wider base of talented footballers.

Wow! This is ironic!

I’m quite shocked that there are so many false premises in Prof’s post.
Na wah.
Anyway, this is CE.

Damunk

You should not. Think about it for one moment. Are you open to scouting Nigerian players for Super Eagles from the local scene?

Is that a possibility?

Do you believe that once in a while there could be a suitable talent resident locally in Nigeria?

[aruako1]

This matter is overblown. Just use our best and most commited players. There are 6 foreign born Eagles players, where would we be without them?

At the squad selection stage for a tournament or major qualifiers it is overblown, I agree. But the general discussion of access to players developed in Nigeria is a valid issue. Even if they are not eventually selected, it is not a bad aspiration to have several eligible local born players.

[Damunk]

This is a very complicated topic.

I have read some brilliant articles on the subject, covering both sides of the argument, and I mean VERY sophisticated articles with tons of research, and even those seem to not resolve the issue.

From what I can see. There are a multitude of factors at play yet. This is pretty much as complex an issue

I am on my famed mobile phone where I don't like framing my arguments. So I'll do this messily.

1) The first facet is that it is the best playing the best
2) but even the above is lazy, because the theoretical pool of talent in Nigeria will VASTLY surpass anything that you would ever find in Europe. So essentially if there is any period where the pool in Europe is substantial, it means Nigeria as a nation is doing something wrong.
3) This is not a simple assertion, because participation rates and the culture of the game is actually BIGGER in Nigeria than in Europe. It is an infrastructural and systemic failure.
4) but at the same time it intersects with the wicked problem of neo-colonialism and globalisation. These are the offspring of professionals who in all reality should mostly never have found their way to Europe in the first instance. It is then a reversal of a brain drain. A positive offshoot of an initially negative migratory drive.

I can go on about the facets of the issue. But I will conclude by raising an important point, YES the different dimensions can and are contradicting one another. While we can simply say that this is the best we have for now. This is likely a case where success will breed failure. The more successful we become with this model, the more the rot in Nigerian football will fester, and yes prominent people in Nigerian football have raised the issue.

Morocco has actually taken the issue more seriously and they built an impressive academy in Sale, where at least three critical players have come from. But even they are likely scratching the issue lightly.

This by the way is not a Nigerian issue. Perhaps it explains why there have been so many upsets in this tournament. Around 30% otnthe players in this tournament are apparently European born. I have not corroborated myself, but what that reflects, on a slightly unrelated note is that the teams of today are not exactly the teams we think we know. That would explain the apparent incongruity in expectations.

You cannot look at any particular team and think that you understand their structure and history, because it has been upended.

This is actually pretty conclusive. It doesn't mean that this is simply a case of a few players opting for a change in their plans as FIFA might have thought when they paved the way for this process. This is actually an entire continent realising that its infrastructure is inadequate and using the necolonial connection to bridge the gap.

I will say this is fine, but it cannot be a short-sighted adventure. This pattern must in someway circle back to how to develop thr game in Africa. I have stayed this before and people on here scoffed at it.

What I know for certain, is that let's say that in 15 years time, the issue has been taken seriously. You would not possibly see 30% of the continents championship participants coming from a relatively small diaspora.

It is akin to saying that 30% of Dambe fighters will come from a small diaspora when both the population and culture of interest in the genre is many times larger at home. It makes no sense.

I do not propose that we shun any such players. That would be a foolish way of cheapening my argument. What I am saying is that the federations in Africa do now have a monumental task in front of them to not abandon those raised in the continent.

It is a matter of colossal urgency requiring billions of dollars of investment.
The reality is that we have new opportunities and connections with the diaspora now, and that is great, but the rate of that connection must be surpasse by the fervour to develop the game in Africa.

Think about what Morocco have tried to accomplish in Sale, but many fold greater. I don't think this is a small matter, and I suspect that if FIFA have any semblance of intelligence and integrity, they will in fact be the catalyst the project themselves.

It is highly unlikely that any well meaning administrator would come to the conclusions that the game in Africa can be abandoned.

Tbite,

Are you sure that people would even want to read your piece? Some have their minds CLOSED to new thinking or views that challenge their thought.

What you have written is very important and not just based on an outlandish write up, without rationalized thinking. It is an idea like this that our administrators need to carefully review. It is based on logic but requires someone who can deeply examine and question current beliefs about talent.

If we want to really optimize Nigerian talent base -- home and abroad -- what you laid out is the way to go. Some of the issues have been regularly broached here but some have simply turned a deaf ear. They are focused on simply getting boys grown in overseas academies even if they may be those not currently rated A national team talents in Europe. They are perceived to be better than seeking how to optimize a talent base that is possible with the demographic calculations that you insinuate. Some do not even want to consider it as a way to blend the best possible talents out there -- home and abroad. Instead, they want to stick only to those abroad.

It is problematic but rather than widen our thoughts and think about possibilities and a greater NT in the near future, we want to settle with what is left for us by the scouts of European national teams even when we could do much better by utilizing talents wherever they may be, both home and abroad. Just a minor example and this really is just scratching the surface -- the location of a goalkeeper today in South Africa was forced after years of attempting to force feed European based talent as the best that Nigeria can unearth. Yet, today we have a goalkeeper that is not from Europe and in my opinion may not even be the best possible goalkeeper that Nigeria can locate if only Nigeria will open its search to wider base of talented footballers.

Wow! This is ironic!

I’m quite shocked that there are so many false premises in Prof’s post.
Na wah.
Anyway, this is CE.

Damunk

You should not. Think about it for one moment. Are you open to scouting Nigerian players for Super Eagles from the local scene?

Is that a possibility?

Do you believe that once in a while there could be a suitable talent resident locally in Nigeria?

Prof, with all due respect (and I mean it), if after all these years of us debating this topic, you feel you still need to ask me this question, it shows you are guilty of the very thing you accuse others of, and I quote you:
“… some have simply turned a deaf ear.”

I actually feel very betrayed by your consistent misrepresentation of not only my position, but the position of many others who you disagree with.

I can only try and fool myself by believing you are genuinely unaware of what you are arguing against. But the more likely truth is that you simply refuse to acknowledge that your position is untenable and unrealistic in the current circumstances, hence the need for you to continue to construct straw men as fast as they are brought down.
You might actually be able to claim the moral high ground, but that would simply be a ‘dash’ because you can only earn that claim if my position and others’ was to ignore our local talent. But again, it’s a straw man you unfortunately insist on constructing to enable your argument.

This debate has long run its course.
Let those that need to ‘win’ do so. We should have agreed to disagree a long time ago.
Reality is reality.

[niyi]

This is a very complicated topic.

I have read some brilliant articles on the subject, covering both sides of the argument, and I mean VERY sophisticated articles with tons of research, and even those seem to not resolve the issue.

From what I can see. There are a multitude of factors at play yet. This is pretty much as complex an issue

I am on my famed mobile phone where I don't like framing my arguments. So I'll do this messily.

1) The first facet is that it is the best playing the best
2) but even the above is lazy, because the theoretical pool of talent in Nigeria will VASTLY surpass anything that you would ever find in Europe. So essentially if there is any period where the pool in Europe is substantial, it means Nigeria as a nation is doing something wrong.
3) This is not a simple assertion, because participation rates and the culture of the game is actually BIGGER in Nigeria than in Europe. It is an infrastructural and systemic failure.
4) but at the same time it intersects with the wicked problem of neo-colonialism and globalisation. These are the offspring of professionals who in all reality should mostly never have found their way to Europe in the first instance. It is then a reversal of a brain drain. A positive offshoot of an initially negative migratory drive.

I can go on about the facets of the issue. But I will conclude by raising an important point, YES the different dimensions can and are contradicting one another. While we can simply say that this is the best we have for now. This is likely a case where success will breed failure. The more successful we become with this model, the more the rot in Nigerian football will fester, and yes prominent people in Nigerian football have raised the issue.

Morocco has actually taken the issue more seriously and they built an impressive academy in Sale, where at least three critical players have come from. But even they are likely scratching the issue lightly.

This by the way is not a Nigerian issue. Perhaps it explains why there have been so many upsets in this tournament. Around 30% otnthe players in this tournament are apparently European born. I have not corroborated myself, but what that reflects, on a slightly unrelated note is that the teams of today are not exactly the teams we think we know. That would explain the apparent incongruity in expectations.

You cannot look at any particular team and think that you understand their structure and history, because it has been upended.

This is actually pretty conclusive. It doesn't mean that this is simply a case of a few players opting for a change in their plans as FIFA might have thought when they paved the way for this process. This is actually an entire continent realising that its infrastructure is inadequate and using the necolonial connection to bridge the gap.

I will say this is fine, but it cannot be a short-sighted adventure. This pattern must in someway circle back to how to develop thr game in Africa. I have stayed this before and people on here scoffed at it.

What I know for certain, is that let's say that in 15 years time, the issue has been taken seriously. You would not possibly see 30% of the continents championship participants coming from a relatively small diaspora.

It is akin to saying that 30% of Dambe fighters will come from a small diaspora when both the population and culture of interest in the genre is many times larger at home. It makes no sense.

I do not propose that we shun any such players. That would be a foolish way of cheapening my argument. What I am saying is that the federations in Africa do now have a monumental task in front of them to not abandon those raised in the continent.

It is a matter of colossal urgency requiring billions of dollars of investment.
The reality is that we have new opportunities and connections with the diaspora now, and that is great, but the rate of that connection must be surpasse by the fervour to develop the game in Africa.

Think about what Morocco have tried to accomplish in Sale, but many fold greater. I don't think this is a small matter, and I suspect that if FIFA have any semblance of intelligence and integrity, they will in fact be the catalyst the project themselves.

It is highly unlikely that any well meaning administrator would come to the conclusions that the game in Africa can be abandoned.

Tbite,

Are you sure that people would even want to read your piece? Some have their minds CLOSED to new thinking or views that challenge their thought.

What you have written is very important and not just based on an outlandish write up, without rationalized thinking. It is an idea like this that our administrators need to carefully review. It is based on logic but requires someone who can deeply examine and question current beliefs about talent.

If we want to really optimize Nigerian talent base -- home and abroad -- what you laid out is the way to go. Some of the issues have been regularly broached here but some have simply turned a deaf ear. They are focused on simply getting boys grown in overseas academies even if they may be those not currently rated A national team talents in Europe. They are perceived to be better than seeking how to optimize a talent base that is possible with the demographic calculations that you insinuate. Some do not even want to consider it as a way to blend the best possible talents out there -- home and abroad. Instead, they want to stick only to those abroad.

It is problematic but rather than widen our thoughts and think about possibilities and a greater NT in the near future, we want to settle with what is left for us by the scouts of European national teams even when we could do much better by utilizing talents wherever they may be, both home and abroad. Just a minor example and this really is just scratching the surface -- the location of a goalkeeper today in South Africa was forced after years of attempting to force feed European based talent as the best that Nigeria can unearth. Yet, today we have a goalkeeper that is not from Europe and in my opinion may not even be the best possible goalkeeper that Nigeria can locate if only Nigeria will open its search to wider base of talented footballers.

Wow! This is ironic!

I’m quite shocked that there are so many false premises in Prof’s post.
Na wah.
Anyway, this is CE.

Damunk

You should not. Think about it for one moment. Are you open to scouting Nigerian players for Super Eagles from the local scene?

Is that a possibility?

Do you believe that once in a while there could be a suitable talent resident locally in Nigeria?

Prof, with all due respect (and I mean it), if after all these years of us debating this topic, you feel you still need to ask me this question, it shows you are guilty of the very thing you accuse others of, and I quote you:
“… some have simply turned a deaf ear.”

I actually feel very betrayed by your consistent misrepresentation of not only my position, but the position of many others who you disagree with.

I can only try and fool myself by believing you are genuinely unaware of what you are arguing against. But the more likely truth is that you simply refuse to acknowledge that your position is untenable and unrealistic in the current circumstances, hence the need for you to continue to construct straw men as fast as they are brought down.
You might actually be able to claim the moral high ground, but that would simply be a ‘dash’ because you can only earn that claim if my position and others’ was to ignore our local talent. But again, it’s a straw man you unfortunately insist on constructing to enable your argument.

This debate has long run its course.
Let those that need to ‘win’ do so. We should have agreed to disagree a long time ago.
Reality is reality.

Maybe your stance is unclear if people consistently misrepresent and misinterpret what you say on this topic. There is also the possibility they are being deliberately obtuse but even in this thread I have read some ridiculous things from you

[Bigpokey24]

This is a very complicated topic.

I have read some brilliant articles on the subject, covering both sides of the argument, and I mean VERY sophisticated articles with tons of research, and even those seem to not resolve the issue.

From what I can see. There are a multitude of factors at play yet. This is pretty much as complex an issue

I am on my famed mobile phone where I don't like framing my arguments. So I'll do this messily.

1) The first facet is that it is the best playing the best
2) but even the above is lazy, because the theoretical pool of talent in Nigeria will VASTLY surpass anything that you would ever find in Europe. So essentially if there is any period where the pool in Europe is substantial, it means Nigeria as a nation is doing something wrong.
3) This is not a simple assertion, because participation rates and the culture of the game is actually BIGGER in Nigeria than in Europe. It is an infrastructural and systemic failure.
4) but at the same time it intersects with the wicked problem of neo-colonialism and globalisation. These are the offspring of professionals who in all reality should mostly never have found their way to Europe in the first instance. It is then a reversal of a brain drain. A positive offshoot of an initially negative migratory drive.

I can go on about the facets of the issue. But I will conclude by raising an important point, YES the different dimensions can and are contradicting one another. While we can simply say that this is the best we have for now. This is likely a case where success will breed failure. The more successful we become with this model, the more the rot in Nigerian football will fester, and yes prominent people in Nigerian football have raised the issue.

Morocco has actually taken the issue more seriously and they built an impressive academy in Sale, where at least three critical players have come from. But even they are likely scratching the issue lightly.

This by the way is not a Nigerian issue. Perhaps it explains why there have been so many upsets in this tournament. Around 30% otnthe players in this tournament are apparently European born. I have not corroborated myself, but what that reflects, on a slightly unrelated note is that the teams of today are not exactly the teams we think we know. That would explain the apparent incongruity in expectations.

You cannot look at any particular team and think that you understand their structure and history, because it has been upended.

This is actually pretty conclusive. It doesn't mean that this is simply a case of a few players opting for a change in their plans as FIFA might have thought when they paved the way for this process. This is actually an entire continent realising that its infrastructure is inadequate and using the necolonial connection to bridge the gap.

I will say this is fine, but it cannot be a short-sighted adventure. This pattern must in someway circle back to how to develop thr game in Africa. I have stayed this before and people on here scoffed at it.

What I know for certain, is that let's say that in 15 years time, the issue has been taken seriously. You would not possibly see 30% of the continents championship participants coming from a relatively small diaspora.

It is akin to saying that 30% of Dambe fighters will come from a small diaspora when both the population and culture of interest in the genre is many times larger at home. It makes no sense.

I do not propose that we shun any such players. That would be a foolish way of cheapening my argument. What I am saying is that the federations in Africa do now have a monumental task in front of them to not abandon those raised in the continent.

It is a matter of colossal urgency requiring billions of dollars of investment.
The reality is that we have new opportunities and connections with the diaspora now, and that is great, but the rate of that connection must be surpasse by the fervour to develop the game in Africa.

Think about what Morocco have tried to accomplish in Sale, but many fold greater. I don't think this is a small matter, and I suspect that if FIFA have any semblance of intelligence and integrity, they will in fact be the catalyst the project themselves.

It is highly unlikely that any well meaning administrator would come to the conclusions that the game in Africa can be abandoned.

Tbite,

Are you sure that people would even want to read your piece? Some have their minds CLOSED to new thinking or views that challenge their thought.

What you have written is very important and not just based on an outlandish write up, without rationalized thinking. It is an idea like this that our administrators need to carefully review. It is based on logic but requires someone who can deeply examine and question current beliefs about talent.

If we want to really optimize Nigerian talent base -- home and abroad -- what you laid out is the way to go. Some of the issues have been regularly broached here but some have simply turned a deaf ear. They are focused on simply getting boys grown in overseas academies even if they may be those not currently rated A national team talents in Europe. They are perceived to be better than seeking how to optimize a talent base that is possible with the demographic calculations that you insinuate. Some do not even want to consider it as a way to blend the best possible talents out there -- home and abroad. Instead, they want to stick only to those abroad.

It is problematic but rather than widen our thoughts and think about possibilities and a greater NT in the near future, we want to settle with what is left for us by the scouts of European national teams even when we could do much better by utilizing talents wherever they may be, both home and abroad. Just a minor example and this really is just scratching the surface -- the location of a goalkeeper today in South Africa was forced after years of attempting to force feed European based talent as the best that Nigeria can unearth. Yet, today we have a goalkeeper that is not from Europe and in my opinion may not even be the best possible goalkeeper that Nigeria can locate if only Nigeria will open its search to wider base of talented footballers.

Wow! This is ironic!

I’m quite shocked that there are so many false premises in Prof’s post.
Na wah.
Anyway, this is CE.

Damunk

You should not. Think about it for one moment. Are you open to scouting Nigerian players for Super Eagles from the local scene?

Is that a possibility?

Do you believe that once in a while there could be a suitable talent resident locally in Nigeria?

Prof, with all due respect (and I mean it), if after all these years of us debating this topic, you feel you still need to ask me this question, it shows you are guilty of the very thing you accuse others of, and I quote you:
“… some have simply turned a deaf ear.”

I actually feel very betrayed by your consistent misrepresentation of not only my position, but the position of many others who you disagree with.

I can only try and fool myself by believing you are genuinely unaware of what you are arguing against. But the more likely truth is that you simply refuse to acknowledge that your position is untenable and unrealistic in the current circumstances, hence the need for you to continue to construct straw men as fast as they are brought down.
You might actually be able to claim the moral high ground, but that would simply be a ‘dash’ because you can only earn that claim if my position and others’ was to ignore our local talent. But again, it’s a straw man you unfortunately insist on constructing to enable your argument.

This debate has long run its course.
Let those that need to ‘win’ do so. We should have agreed to disagree a long time ago.
Reality is reality.

Maybe your stance is unclear if people consistently misrepresent and misinterpret what you say on this topic. There is also the possibility they are being deliberately obtuse but even in this thread I have read some ridiculous things from you

Thank you so much for calling him out

[Damunk]

This is a very complicated topic.

I have read some brilliant articles on the subject, covering both sides of the argument, and I mean VERY sophisticated articles with tons of research, and even those seem to not resolve the issue.

From what I can see. There are a multitude of factors at play yet. This is pretty much as complex an issue

I am on my famed mobile phone where I don't like framing my arguments. So I'll do this messily.

1) The first facet is that it is the best playing the best
2) but even the above is lazy, because the theoretical pool of talent in Nigeria will VASTLY surpass anything that you would ever find in Europe. So essentially if there is any period where the pool in Europe is substantial, it means Nigeria as a nation is doing something wrong.
3) This is not a simple assertion, because participation rates and the culture of the game is actually BIGGER in Nigeria than in Europe. It is an infrastructural and systemic failure.
4) but at the same time it intersects with the wicked problem of neo-colonialism and globalisation. These are the offspring of professionals who in all reality should mostly never have found their way to Europe in the first instance. It is then a reversal of a brain drain. A positive offshoot of an initially negative migratory drive.

I can go on about the facets of the issue. But I will conclude by raising an important point, YES the different dimensions can and are contradicting one another. While we can simply say that this is the best we have for now. This is likely a case where success will breed failure. The more successful we become with this model, the more the rot in Nigerian football will fester, and yes prominent people in Nigerian football have raised the issue.

Morocco has actually taken the issue more seriously and they built an impressive academy in Sale, where at least three critical players have come from. But even they are likely scratching the issue lightly.

This by the way is not a Nigerian issue. Perhaps it explains why there have been so many upsets in this tournament. Around 30% otnthe players in this tournament are apparently European born. I have not corroborated myself, but what that reflects, on a slightly unrelated note is that the teams of today are not exactly the teams we think we know. That would explain the apparent incongruity in expectations.

You cannot look at any particular team and think that you understand their structure and history, because it has been upended.

This is actually pretty conclusive. It doesn't mean that this is simply a case of a few players opting for a change in their plans as FIFA might have thought when they paved the way for this process. This is actually an entire continent realising that its infrastructure is inadequate and using the necolonial connection to bridge the gap.

I will say this is fine, but it cannot be a short-sighted adventure. This pattern must in someway circle back to how to develop thr game in Africa. I have stayed this before and people on here scoffed at it.

What I know for certain, is that let's say that in 15 years time, the issue has been taken seriously. You would not possibly see 30% of the continents championship participants coming from a relatively small diaspora.

It is akin to saying that 30% of Dambe fighters will come from a small diaspora when both the population and culture of interest in the genre is many times larger at home. It makes no sense.

I do not propose that we shun any such players. That would be a foolish way of cheapening my argument. What I am saying is that the federations in Africa do now have a monumental task in front of them to not abandon those raised in the continent.

It is a matter of colossal urgency requiring billions of dollars of investment.
The reality is that we have new opportunities and connections with the diaspora now, and that is great, but the rate of that connection must be surpasse by the fervour to develop the game in Africa.

Think about what Morocco have tried to accomplish in Sale, but many fold greater. I don't think this is a small matter, and I suspect that if FIFA have any semblance of intelligence and integrity, they will in fact be the catalyst the project themselves.

It is highly unlikely that any well meaning administrator would come to the conclusions that the game in Africa can be abandoned.

Tbite,

Are you sure that people would even want to read your piece? Some have their minds CLOSED to new thinking or views that challenge their thought.

What you have written is very important and not just based on an outlandish write up, without rationalized thinking. It is an idea like this that our administrators need to carefully review. It is based on logic but requires someone who can deeply examine and question current beliefs about talent.

If we want to really optimize Nigerian talent base -- home and abroad -- what you laid out is the way to go. Some of the issues have been regularly broached here but some have simply turned a deaf ear. They are focused on simply getting boys grown in overseas academies even if they may be those not currently rated A national team talents in Europe. They are perceived to be better than seeking how to optimize a talent base that is possible with the demographic calculations that you insinuate. Some do not even want to consider it as a way to blend the best possible talents out there -- home and abroad. Instead, they want to stick only to those abroad.

It is problematic but rather than widen our thoughts and think about possibilities and a greater NT in the near future, we want to settle with what is left for us by the scouts of European national teams even when we could do much better by utilizing talents wherever they may be, both home and abroad. Just a minor example and this really is just scratching the surface -- the location of a goalkeeper today in South Africa was forced after years of attempting to force feed European based talent as the best that Nigeria can unearth. Yet, today we have a goalkeeper that is not from Europe and in my opinion may not even be the best possible goalkeeper that Nigeria can locate if only Nigeria will open its search to wider base of talented footballers.

Wow! This is ironic!

I’m quite shocked that there are so many false premises in Prof’s post.
Na wah.
Anyway, this is CE.

Damunk

You should not. Think about it for one moment. Are you open to scouting Nigerian players for Super Eagles from the local scene?

Is that a possibility?

Do you believe that once in a while there could be a suitable talent resident locally in Nigeria?

Prof, with all due respect (and I mean it), if after all these years of us debating this topic, you feel you still need to ask me this question, it shows you are guilty of the very thing you accuse others of, and I quote you:
“… some have simply turned a deaf ear.”

I actually feel very betrayed by your consistent misrepresentation of not only my position, but the position of many others who you disagree with.

I can only try and fool myself by believing you are genuinely unaware of what you are arguing against. But the more likely truth is that you simply refuse to acknowledge that your position is untenable and unrealistic in the current circumstances, hence the need for you to continue to construct straw men as fast as they are brought down.
You might actually be able to claim the moral high ground, but that would simply be a ‘dash’ because you can only earn that claim if my position and others’ was to ignore our local talent. But again, it’s a straw man you unfortunately insist on constructing to enable your argument.

This debate has long run its course.
Let those that need to ‘win’ do so. We should have agreed to disagree a long time ago.
Reality is reality.

Maybe your stance is unclear if people consistently misrepresent and misinterpret what you say on this topic. There is also the possibility they are being deliberately obtuse but even in this thread I have read some ridiculous things from you

If it’s unclear and ‘misinterpreted’, then maybe some people have learning difficulties.
But there is no misinterpretation.
It’s simply disagreeing by misrepresentation.
Very different.

[Enugu II]

Tbite,

Are you sure that people would even want to read your piece? Some have their minds CLOSED to new thinking or views that challenge their thought.

What you have written is very important and not just based on an outlandish write up, without rationalized thinking. It is an idea like this that our administrators need to carefully review. It is based on logic but requires someone who can deeply examine and question current beliefs about talent.

If we want to really optimize Nigerian talent base -- home and abroad -- what you laid out is the way to go. Some of the issues have been regularly broached here but some have simply turned a deaf ear. They are focused on simply getting boys grown in overseas academies even if they may be those not currently rated A national team talents in Europe. They are perceived to be better than seeking how to optimize a talent base that is possible with the demographic calculations that you insinuate. Some do not even want to consider it as a way to blend the best possible talents out there -- home and abroad. Instead, they want to stick only to those abroad.

It is problematic but rather than widen our thoughts and think about possibilities and a greater NT in the near future, we want to settle with what is left for us by the scouts of European national teams even when we could do much better by utilizing talents wherever they may be, both home and abroad. Just a minor example and this really is just scratching the surface -- the location of a goalkeeper today in South Africa was forced after years of attempting to force feed European based talent as the best that Nigeria can unearth. Yet, today we have a goalkeeper that is not from Europe and in my opinion may not even be the best possible goalkeeper that Nigeria can locate if only Nigeria will open its search to wider base of talented footballers.

Wow! This is ironic!

I’m quite shocked that there are so many false premises in Prof’s post.
Na wah.
Anyway, this is CE.

Damunk

You should not. Think about it for one moment. Are you open to scouting Nigerian players for Super Eagles from the local scene?

Is that a possibility?

Do you believe that once in a while there could be a suitable talent resident locally in Nigeria?

Prof, with all due respect (and I mean it), if after all these years of us debating this topic, you feel you still need to ask me this question, it shows you are guilty of the very thing you accuse others of, and I quote you:
“… some have simply turned a deaf ear.”

I actually feel very betrayed by your consistent misrepresentation of not only my position, but the position of many others who you disagree with.

I can only try and fool myself by believing you are genuinely unaware of what you are arguing against. But the more likely truth is that you simply refuse to acknowledge that your position is untenable and unrealistic in the current circumstances, hence the need for you to continue to construct straw men as fast as they are brought down.
You might actually be able to claim the moral high ground, but that would simply be a ‘dash’ because you can only earn that claim if my position and others’ was to ignore our local talent. But again, it’s a straw man you unfortunately insist on constructing to enable your argument.

This debate has long run its course.
Let those that need to ‘win’ do so. We should have agreed to disagree a long time ago.
Reality is reality.

Maybe your stance is unclear if people consistently misrepresent and misinterpret what you say on this topic. There is also the possibility they are being deliberately obtuse but even in this thread I have read some ridiculous things from you

If it’s unclear and ‘misinterpreted’, then maybe some people have learning difficulties.
But there is no misinterpretation.
It’s simply disagreeing by misrepresentation.
Very different.

Damunk

Perhaps I have misrepresented your position. My apologies. Can you state/restate your position for us on this thread?

[Cellular]

My question is why does this matter? I think the best players should play irrespective of their country of birth.

Chif - i agree - the best players should play.

However, if we get to the stage where there are no locally born players on SE (whether playing in the local leagues or overseas) then what conclusions can we draw and what does that imply? For example if one concludes that the reason only foreign born are the best then it seems there is some argument to be made for the soccer development that occurs from ages 5 to 15 or so. Does one conclude that Nigeria should invest less on the professional league and more on youth soccer?

I don't have a firm opinion. Just trying to see what folks think about the implications?

It is what it is. If our NFF don’t want to develop our local league then we have to look somewhere else. I’m glad this AFCON has shut up people who think foreign born players are soft and can’t play the African game. With that said, we have a few local players that can add some value to this team.

God bless you packerland.
But don’t bet any body shutting up for long.

There are those for whom it is more important to be right than it is for them to publicly enjoy the sweet smell of success made by the very boys they are so quick to disparage….the ‘rejects’, the ‘ajebotas’, the ‘softies’ that are “not hungry” and “dont understand the African game”.

Have you heard pimm from them lately on that matter?
But just let them falter and they’ll be back out in force.

There you go again with your less than honest comment on what the people that don't agree with you have stated.

Again, for the avoidance of doubt, you can't sustainably grow the sport when you intentionally like Pinnick has done outsource your football development by poaching players born, raised, and developed by others at the detriment of your local league. You have to make a DELIBERATE effort at SCOUTING players of Naijarian heritage which includes those born in Naijaria.

We are not the only country facing similar issues.

[Cellular]

This is a very complicated topic.

I have read some brilliant articles on the subject, covering both sides of the argument, and I mean VERY sophisticated articles with tons of research, and even those seem to not resolve the issue.

From what I can see. There are a multitude of factors at play yet. This is pretty much as complex an issue

I am on my famed mobile phone where I don't like framing my arguments. So I'll do this messily.

1) The first facet is that it is the best playing the best
2) but even the above is lazy, because the theoretical pool of talent in Nigeria will VASTLY surpass anything that you would ever find in Europe. So essentially if there is any period where the pool in Europe is substantial, it means Nigeria as a nation is doing something wrong.
3) This is not a simple assertion, because participation rates and the culture of the game is actually BIGGER in Nigeria than in Europe. It is an infrastructural and systemic failure.
4) but at the same time it intersects with the wicked problem of neo-colonialism and globalisation. These are the offspring of professionals who in all reality should mostly never have found their way to Europe in the first instance. It is then a reversal of a brain drain. A positive offshoot of an initially negative migratory drive.

I can go on about the facets of the issue. But I will conclude by raising an important point, YES the different dimensions can and are contradicting one another. While we can simply say that this is the best we have for now. This is likely a case where success will breed failure. The more successful we become with this model, the more the rot in Nigerian football will fester, and yes prominent people in Nigerian football have raised the issue.

Morocco has actually taken the issue more seriously and they built an impressive academy in Sale, where at least three critical players have come from. But even they are likely scratching the issue lightly.

This by the way is not a Nigerian issue. Perhaps it explains why there have been so many upsets in this tournament. Around 30% otnthe players in this tournament are apparently European born. I have not corroborated myself, but what that reflects, on a slightly unrelated note is that the teams of today are not exactly the teams we think we know. That would explain the apparent incongruity in expectations.

You cannot look at any particular team and think that you understand their structure and history, because it has been upended.

This is actually pretty conclusive. It doesn't mean that this is simply a case of a few players opting for a change in their plans as FIFA might have thought when they paved the way for this process. This is actually an entire continent realising that its infrastructure is inadequate and using the necolonial connection to bridge the gap.

I will say this is fine, but it cannot be a short-sighted adventure. This pattern must in someway circle back to how to develop thr game in Africa. I have stayed this before and people on here scoffed at it.

What I know for certain, is that let's say that in 15 years time, the issue has been taken seriously. You would not possibly see 30% of the continents championship participants coming from a relatively small diaspora.

It is akin to saying that 30% of Dambe fighters will come from a small diaspora when both the population and culture of interest in the genre is many times larger at home. It makes no sense.

I do not propose that we shun any such players. That would be a foolish way of cheapening my argument. What I am saying is that the federations in Africa do now have a monumental task in front of them to not abandon those raised in the continent.

It is a matter of colossal urgency requiring billions of dollars of investment.
The reality is that we have new opportunities and connections with the diaspora now, and that is great, but the rate of that connection must be surpasse by the fervour to develop the game in Africa.

Think about what Morocco have tried to accomplish in Sale, but many fold greater. I don't think this is a small matter, and I suspect that if FIFA have any semblance of intelligence and integrity, they will in fact be the catalyst the project themselves.

It is highly unlikely that any well meaning administrator would come to the conclusions that the game in Africa can be abandoned.

Thank you, Tbite.

The issue is indeed a complicated one. It goes to our preference for "Wait-and-take". Finished product... naaaa, we don't want the hard work of developing and churning out players. We prefer those made by others. We have changed our football talent discovery to watching rosters and seeing who has a Naijarian link. DaMunk will turn around and say it is reverse racism when we point out that the over-reliance on foreign-born players is reverse racism or some ish. He doesn't see the ripple effect of a conscience attempt by the FA to abandon any football development efforts locally to rely mostly on players developed overseas. They are abdicating their responsibilities and (some) fans are cheering them on.

Naira is at 1,500 to a dollar. The same people will turn around and ask how did we get here. We got here by being consumers of all things foreign and refusing to develop local capacity.

As an employer of labor in Naijaria it is scary that people are leaving in droves. They believe the only way to be recognized for your craft is by going overseas... doesn't matter the condition. Just go overseas. And your fellow Naijarians will recognize you.

We can't all be located outside. Our best are not all in the diaspora.

[Cellular]

In short, one could build 10 academies in each city countrywide, the impact would be marginal. If the issues that propel parents into the diaspora remain, so will the conveyor belt of kids made in/raised in diaspora. The advent of social media has popularised knowledge of sporting professions to children and most importantly, parents. The universality of a Nigerian sounding prefix or suffix on a sports jersey has opened eyes to the avenue as a profession. The proceeds of their success, even more so.

A death blow has been struck to the stereotypically Nigerian creed of “Medicine, Law, Accounting, Engineering” (Pharmacy being the safety net for those who miss the MBBS Boat). Having first and second degree relatives who play/have played professionally in England’s upper tiers/or are presently part of youth systems, on the evidence of any given Saturday, one can attest that, every single game watched has scores of young Nigerians (mostly) chasing the dream and mothers/fathers on the sideline fasting and praying for the professional contract.

The level of exposure to new technologies, greater training facilities and the general advancement in sports science, is incomparable. The level of investment, unrivalled. The playing fields, gorgeous carpets of green grass, cut to precision, that glisten like emeralds in the Cartagena sun. The pitches are of various sizes, crisscrossed with thick white lines to denote zones and half-spaces. Training balls of various size and weight to accelerate dribbling skill and acumen. Olympic level sprinting coaches to improve posture and position to heighten aerodynamics. The list is endless. And this is only one London club. Up and down the country it’s the same. And lest one forget, England was late to the party with regard to youth development. Across Europe the provisions are stellar too. The endpoint will be a gluttony of Ugochukwus, Chukwuemekas, Adebayos and Bakayos as far as the eye can see. Not all will conscript as lions or whatever, many will sprout talons and wings and soar as Eagles.

And their children? The cycle is self repeating.

The answer isn’t the building of academies in the caustic belly of a beast, rather to plant the fairytale princess’ kiss on its lips and return it to human or rather humane form.

Parents or those to be, don’t leave for want of playing fields for their children. Health, education, employment, security, housing, welfare. One can only imagine how dire the straits were for a couple to rather statelessness in Athens to living one more week in Lagos. Fast forward a few decades and they are the proud parents of an NBA phenomenon who may never have gotten there but for their Mediterranean odyssey.

Nigeria, Africa will continue to haemorrhage talent and have no choice but to open its doors for their superior skillsets return as representatives. The changes needed to curb the exodus, outside of the strict immigration laws of recipients, are as close to impossible as they are unlikely. Socioeconomic development, health and welfare systems, an appreciation of basic needs and the recognition of the responsibility of a State. No chance.

The Ades and Chukwus will leave, give birth to Olus and Ikems and all will wear the green and white, giving interviews in “wahgwan my G” and cockney rhyme. The more the merrier. Within the next 15 years, half of the line up will be mixed race with postmodern Instagrammable names like Hashtag Adeyomi and FOMO Chimaroke.

It is what it is. Diaspora remittance alone contributes how much to GDP? The notion of foreign this or that shouldn’t be given the prominence it is. When the money flies from the four corners of the globe to cover state failures, its foreignness is seldom spoken of and it’s no less legal tender. This is Africa.

To be honest, it’s the way of the modern world. Look at Italy for instance, the children of the fishing boats and dinghies are filling up youth teams in all sports. Scores of Willy Gnotos in every academy. If not mistaken, only a few years back, the high courts were debating an African diaspora’s youth basketball team’s eligibility to represent Italy. There will come a time when the line-up for the Azzura is blacker than the 100M final. Amen to that.

You lose what you cannot keep hold of.

If Africa can’t keep them at home, they will go, with a set of keys to let themselves in when they please, head straight to the kitchen and take the biggest piece of chicken from the pot. And rightly so, if it improves performance, that’s all that matters. The issues of development are the duties of the elected, let’s not mistake playing fields for legislation, investment and development. Without that holy trinity, it’s infrastructural atheism and sadly, for the most, their leaders, are as pious as Pontius Pilate.

Coach, I agree with you.

Why don't we all relocate overseas?

Or just get recolonized. This governance thing is above our ability.

Get these oyibo people to come and build these facilities for us. Run our FA. How about run our government?

Woe betide the Naijarian who can't get out. He is nothing. He is incapable of being anything until he leaves the shores of the country. All he needs is a few months out... get on TV. Be written about by foreign journalists. And the natives will notice him. Should he not be as lucky then he is not good enough.

[Cellular]

The point is simple. The NFF should not let this success distract from the work that needs to be done structurally (Which they WILL). They are Nigerians, that is what Nigerians do. Take the easy way out.

Keep saying it.

Those who will misquote you will still misquote you.

[Cellular]

All eligible players should be given EQUAL opportunity to compete for shirt irrespective of where they are born or ply their trade.

Unfortunately Pinnick seems to think differently. He is only concerned about those plying their trade abroad (and those born abroad)

While players do improve over time, I doubt we would have considered Nwabali for the SE IF he is still playing in Nigeria. For me not giving players EQUAL opportunity is the issue.

That's the dude is the one that is giving people the impetus to advocate that there's nothing wrong with outsourcing your talent recruitment.

His motto has always been, "If you are in Naijaria, you are not good enough to be considered for the National team".

[Cellular]

Over the years, similar to many other African teams, the player composition of SE has evolved. At one time, all the players were born in Nigeria and played locally. By the late nineties, most of the players were born in Nigeria but virtually all were playing overseas.

Fast forward to today. Virtually all the players play overseas by the time they are invited to SE. But a lot more of the players were born overseas.

In the game against Angola, if I'm not mistaken - 6 of the 11 starting lineup were born overseas. Should this trend continue, there may come a time when majority of the SE will consist of players of Nigerian heritage born overseas.

Any thoughts? Is this just a trend consistent with the modern times we live in where migration to Western countries continues and so it is a natural outcome with such a large Nigeria diaspora? How will this affect the local game and local leagues 5yrs from now, 10 yrs from now, 20 yrs from now?

ps I'm not making any remarks on the SE team at Afcon. I believe all the players were invited on merit - based on the perspective of the coach and NFF. My question is about longer term trends and strategy.

NEED NOT BE ONE OR THE OTHER; CAN BE A WIN-WIN, AND...


...it's not very complicated. Any foreign-born person eligible to receive a Nigerian passport (birth, marriage, naturalization, refugee, asylum, etc) should have all the rights of those born in Nigeria to play for the SE.

On the other hand, the authorities in Nigeria must strive to provide the highest level of development for those born in Nigeria.

Then the lucky coach gets to choose from these two vast pools based only on merit. Once the team has been selected, the labels "foreign born" and "locals" go away and each player is referred simply as"Eagle".

What's so complicated about this? My only concern is my lack of faith in the hapless NFF. I'm afraid they will sit back and rely almost entirely on the foreign pool to the detriment of all because for all their talk they don't expect to win the WC one day and are therefore not planning accordingly.

Remember the foreign pool is a FIFA creation and can be changed anytime; not so with local kids.
Bell

Bell, there's nothing complicated about it.

You also have folks who claim that it is discriminatory when we state the same thing you have stated. They believe it is a waste of time and resources to scout for players in the domestic league. They argue that if you are good enough for the national team someone would see you and take you overseas.

As you have stated, the FA is helping perpetuate that narrative by not doing enough to consciously invest, develop, and promote the local league and players.

[megapro]

AFCON 2024

A Diaspora affair

From the original entry registered for the tournament

630 players
Born in Africa 430
Foreign born 200

Countries with most diaspora players

Morocco 18
Equatorial Guinea 17
Congo DR 16
Algeria 14
Cape Verde 13

Only three African countries have just locally born players

Egypt, South Africa, Namibia

Country of birth at AFCON 2024 (Diaspora)

France 104
Spain 24
England 15
Netherlands 13
Holland 10

AFCON 2024 Groups with most Diaspora

A 42
C 40
F 40

Nigeria started their last matches with 6 Foreign born players

Troost Ekong -Holland
Lookman -England
Aina -England
Ajayi -England
Iwobi -England
Bassey -Italy

From the original list
All coaches of eventual Semifinalists are Europeans


Are the diaspora born capitalizing on better soccer development?

This is a very complicated topic.

I have read some brilliant articles on the subject, covering both sides of the argument, and I mean VERY sophisticated articles with tons of research, and even those seem to not resolve the issue.

From what I can see. There are a multitude of factors at play yet. This is pretty much as complex an issue

I am on my famed mobile phone where I don't like framing my arguments. So I'll do this messily.

1) The first facet is that it is the best playing the best
2) but even the above is lazy, because the theoretical pool of talent in Nigeria will VASTLY surpass anything that you would ever find in Europe. So essentially if there is any period where the pool in Europe is substantial, it means Nigeria as a nation is doing something wrong.
3) This is not a simple assertion, because participation rates and the culture of the game is actually BIGGER in Nigeria than in Europe. It is an infrastructural and systemic failure.
4) but at the same time it intersects with the wicked problem of neo-colonialism and globalisation. These are the offspring of professionals who in all reality should mostly never have found their way to Europe in the first instance. It is then a reversal of a brain drain. A positive offshoot of an initially negative migratory drive.

I can go on about the facets of the issue. But I will conclude by raising an important point, YES the different dimensions can and are contradicting one another. While we can simply say that this is the best we have for now. This is likely a case where success will breed failure. The more successful we become with this model, the more the rot in Nigerian football will fester, and yes prominent people in Nigerian football have raised the issue.

Morocco has actually taken the issue more seriously and they built an impressive academy in Sale, where at least three critical players have come from. But even they are likely scratching the issue lightly.

This by the way is not a Nigerian issue. Perhaps it explains why there have been so many upsets in this tournament. Around 30% otnthe players in this tournament are apparently European born. I have not corroborated myself, but what that reflects, on a slightly unrelated note is that the teams of today are not exactly the teams we think we know. That would explain the apparent incongruity in expectations.

You cannot look at any particular team and think that you understand their structure and history, because it has been upended.

This is actually pretty conclusive. It doesn't mean that this is simply a case of a few players opting for a change in their plans as FIFA might have thought when they paved the way for this process. This is actually an entire continent realising that its infrastructure is inadequate and using the necolonial connection to bridge the gap.

I will say this is fine, but it cannot be a short-sighted adventure. This pattern must in someway circle back to how to develop thr game in Africa. I have stayed this before and people on here scoffed at it.

What I know for certain, is that let's say that in 15 years time, the issue has been taken seriously. You would not possibly see 30% of the continents championship participants coming from a relatively small diaspora.

It is akin to saying that 30% of Dambe fighters will come from a small diaspora when both the population and culture of interest in the genre is many times larger at home. It makes no sense.

I do not propose that we shun any such players. That would be a foolish way of cheapening my argument. What I am saying is that the federations in Africa do now have a monumental task in front of them to not abandon those raised in the continent.

It is a matter of colossal urgency requiring billions of dollars of investment.
The reality is that we have new opportunities and connections with the diaspora now, and that is great, but the rate of that connection must be surpasse by the fervour to develop the game in Africa.

Think about what Morocco have tried to accomplish in Sale, but many fold greater. I don't think this is a small matter, and I suspect that if FIFA have any semblance of intelligence and integrity, they will in fact be the catalyst the project themselves.

It is highly unlikely that any well meaning administrator would come to the conclusions that the game in Africa can be abandoned.

[Cellular]

This a a very interesting discussion. As far as I am concerned, anyone born of Nigerian parentage regardless of where they are born is NIGERIAN and eligible to play for the national team. The advantage that the "away" born Nigerians have is that they get early exposure to modern football training. They also get the advantage of early exposure to the European teams. Those born in Nigeria and have talent and are lucky enough to get "discovered" usually end up overseas. The concern that is been expressed by some in this discussion is that the pool of home grown players on the NT is shrinking. This is a legitimate concern that we need to take seriously because, so far, ALL our super star players (VO, Mikel, Kanu, Okocha, etc) have been home grown. Until we have "away" born players with the quality of Mpape choosing to play for the NT, we need to focus our attention on the bigger talent pool in Nigeria and give them the necessary tools to flourish.

It’s a concern and a reason to work towards making the local football environment as conducive as possible.
But to think it is going to compete with the top leagues in the world in the next 20 or 30 years is a pipe dream.

The Nigerian economy is nothing great and how anyone can believe the NPFL is divorced from the economic climate of the country is befuddling. To then go on and expect that we will be retaining our top talent old and young is even more delusional. If anything, Nigerian footballers created the jappa movement. Nor be today they have been fleeing.

Next thing, someone will come and say that the national team we expect to compete favorably on the global stage should reflect three or four local players by force?
And then, if they are not deemed good enough, the conclusion is that it is because they are being ignored and therefore not given an ‘equal chance’?

Given an ‘equal chance’ like the Sokoto state JAMB pupil with a score of 85 who is given “a chance” in University to study engineering at the expense of the Imo state pupil with a score of 195 who is sitting at home as a result.

Where is the logic in that?
Gimme a break, abeg.

Are they given equal chance?

Your analogy would be accurate if we said to give all indigenes of Sokoto a chance to study Medicine, Law or Engineering.

What we are saying is that there are deserving students from 'Sokoto' who deserve to be scouted and given the opportunity to study Medicine, Law, or Engineering. Go and scout such deserving students and bring them in to take the exam like others.

Don't close out opportunities for them because you believe in your mind that there are no capable people from 'Sokoto' or that resources are better spent elsewhere.

[Cellular]

By the same rhetoric, as the world moves towards renewable energy sources, Nigeria must stay prehistoric playing with fossil fuels because there’s petroleum in its soils. Nonsense.

National representation should be just that, an assembly of a nation’s best representing said nation. If all are born and bred in diaspora and brimming with all the comparative advantage of their ajebuttering so be it. If they’re better, more adept, accomplished, spread the butter over all the agege till every loaf looks like a croissant. Who cares. There is no room for sentiment in pursuit of success. If the romanticised team of Roys of the Rovers is desired, then establish the infrastructure to achieve it. That, brethren is more than ramshackle academies and dust laden fields of dubious invoicing. Health, welfare, education. Build a society that serves sporting industry.

Again, one draws attention to England’s attempt at building sporting legacy. Huge investment in bricks and mortar, new roads, stadia, sporting facilities, housing and housing schemes, to endorse an Olympic bid. A countrywide search for talent, extension of PE and Sports related activity served by national curricula.

Huge bursaries, subsidies and scholarships to support talent and aid their sidestep of distraction due to socioeconomic circumstances.

Governmental food strategies improving awareness on healthy eating, increasing access to nutrition for low income households, sugar taxes and levies on foods of such ilk.

The surge in public-private partnerships to increase availability of sporting facilities nationwide. The list is endless. It’s more than building a building, it’s building a whole social system. The proceeds record Olympic medal hauls, gold medalists/world records across multiple disciplines. In international football, success across myriad age grades.

Sadly, even the investment in the female game in England far and away exceeds all being done in arguably are national sport.

In truth, the above effort is inconceivable, but if there’s a way to benefit from their efforts, let it be maximal.

Naijaria produces fossil fuel. Dangote is about to be importing crude oil to run his refinery. After all, it is easier to import the crude oil than develop the very raw material that is plenty in Naijaria.

Tomorrow you will be the first to line up to throw stones at Naijaria.

How did we get here?


England that invested in sports must be stupid. They could have gone to their former colonies and just poached their best and assembled them to represent the 3 Lions?

[Cellular]

Nigerians are "tribalists" at the core.
Another thread about SE and Foreign-born players?
That this is being discussed, even if benign, is divisive and in bad taste.

It is an excellent and relevant discussion. If all you see is "tribalism", the thread has gone above your head and you should sit it out.

I did not read through the thread, would not stoop that low.
It is a slippery slope, sad you fail to appreciate that.
I see SE players; I dont see foreign born or locally made.

Excellent!
Don't read through it.
Jump in and make conclusions.

[megapro]

Tbite

Interesting analysis

Your figures are correct
31.8%

Diaspora involvement is a great boost for the African game

The captains of the last two winning AFCON teams were both born in France

[Cellular]

This matter is overblown. Just use our best and most commited players. There are 6 foreign born Eagles players, where would we be without them?

Bro, it is not overblown.
Those who know better should do better. Football is a very lucrative industry. Have you asked yourself why there are fewer and fewer Naijarian players who go from playing in the local league to being signed to a big club overseas? Clubs will not be looking for talent in a league where their own FA does not believe that there's any talent good enough for the national team.

The FA consciously changed their focus from developing players in the domestic league and showcasing them in Continental tourneys and FIFA tourneys to now sitting down and watching EPL, Championship, and Champions League looking for Naijarians or anyone with a Naijarian-sounding name. If you ask them, they will say, that there are no good players in the local leagues. All the good players are overseas just like other professionals who are any good in their profession.

[Cellular]

AFCON 2024

A Diaspora affair

From the original entry registered for the tournament

630 players
Born in Africa 430
Foreign born 200

Countries with most diaspora players

Morocco 18
Equatorial Guinea 17
Congo DR 16
Algeria 14
Cape Verde 13

Only three African countries have just locally born players

Egypt, South Africa, Namibia

Country of birth at AFCON 2024 (Diaspora)

France 104
Spain 24
England 15
Netherlands 13
Holland 10

AFCON 2024 Groups with most Diaspora

A 42
C 40
F 40

Nigeria started their last matches with 6 Foreign born players

Troost Ekong -Holland
Lookman -England
Aina -England
Ajayi -England
Iwobi -England
Bassey -Italy

From the original list
All coaches of eventual Semifinalists are Europeans


Are the diaspora born capitalizing on better soccer development?

This is a very complicated topic.

I have read some brilliant articles on the subject, covering both sides of the argument, and I mean VERY sophisticated articles with tons of research, and even those seem to not resolve the issue.

From what I can see. There are a multitude of factors at play yet. This is pretty much as complex an issue

I am on my famed mobile phone where I don't like framing my arguments. So I'll do this messily.

1) The first facet is that it is the best playing the best
2) but even the above is lazy, because the theoretical pool of talent in Nigeria will VASTLY surpass anything that you would ever find in Europe. So essentially if there is any period where the pool in Europe is substantial, it means Nigeria as a nation is doing something wrong.
3) This is not a simple assertion, because participation rates and the culture of the game is actually BIGGER in Nigeria than in Europe. It is an infrastructural and systemic failure.
4) but at the same time it intersects with the wicked problem of neo-colonialism and globalisation. These are the offspring of professionals who in all reality should mostly never have found their way to Europe in the first instance. It is then a reversal of a brain drain. A positive offshoot of an initially negative migratory drive.

I can go on about the facets of the issue. But I will conclude by raising an important point, YES the different dimensions can and are contradicting one another. While we can simply say that this is the best we have for now. This is likely a case where success will breed failure. The more successful we become with this model, the more the rot in Nigerian football will fester, and yes prominent people in Nigerian football have raised the issue.

Morocco has actually taken the issue more seriously and they built an impressive academy in Sale, where at least three critical players have come from. But even they are likely scratching the issue lightly.

This by the way is not a Nigerian issue. Perhaps it explains why there have been so many upsets in this tournament. Around 30% otnthe players in this tournament are apparently European born. I have not corroborated myself, but what that reflects, on a slightly unrelated note is that the teams of today are not exactly the teams we think we know. That would explain the apparent incongruity in expectations.

You cannot look at any particular team and think that you understand their structure and history, because it has been upended.

This is actually pretty conclusive. It doesn't mean that this is simply a case of a few players opting for a change in their plans as FIFA might have thought when they paved the way for this process. This is actually an entire continent realising that its infrastructure is inadequate and using the necolonial connection to bridge the gap.

I will say this is fine, but it cannot be a short-sighted adventure. This pattern must in someway circle back to how to develop thr game in Africa. I have stayed this before and people on here scoffed at it.

What I know for certain, is that let's say that in 15 years time, the issue has been taken seriously. You would not possibly see 30% of the continents championship participants coming from a relatively small diaspora.

It is akin to saying that 30% of Dambe fighters will come from a small diaspora when both the population and culture of interest in the genre is many times larger at home. It makes no sense.

I do not propose that we shun any such players. That would be a foolish way of cheapening my argument. What I am saying is that the federations in Africa do now have a monumental task in front of them to not abandon those raised in the continent.

It is a matter of colossal urgency requiring billions of dollars of investment.
The reality is that we have new opportunities and connections with the diaspora now, and that is great, but the rate of that connection must be surpasse by the fervour to develop the game in Africa.

Think about what Morocco have tried to accomplish in Sale, but many fold greater. I don't think this is a small matter, and I suspect that if FIFA have any semblance of intelligence and integrity, they will in fact be the catalyst the project themselves.

It is highly unlikely that any well meaning administrator would come to the conclusions that the game in Africa can be abandoned.

Thanks for taking the time to give us the data.
But is Iwobi really foreign born? Foreign raised...

[Coach]

@Cellular, it is well evidenced by the annals of history, for a nation to succeed, success must be the privilege of the people and purpose of the state. Soviet-eta propaganda sought a sense of superiority in its people, a state-sponsored doping program gave its athletes performance enhancement.

Even in the darkened corners and crevices of the conscience, there’s an awareness that state involvement is a must to achieve anything at national level.

Sorry, there can be no romanticism in this regard, no rallying of patriots through satire and sarcasm, “let everyone leave” or better yet “let oyinbo colonise our lands and run our administrations” (or to that effect). Such statements, no matter how tongue in cheek, come to the mouth with some element of truth. Why not, in place of Oyinbo, a credible candidate on ground capable of driving social reformation? Why must the undesirable extreme be presented before the public to turn their backs away in fear and horror?

This isn’t about neo-colonialism, rather about thr existential crisis continent wide, socioeconomic development. Throughout human history people have moved and settled out of need more than anything else. Capacity to do so is often secondary. When Viking longboats entered the seas, it wasn’t because they knew England was over yonder, rather due to a need to find fertile soils for vegetation, a more favourable climate for agriculture, gold for their coffers and war for their warriors.

If Nigeria will not embark on the requisite socioeconomic advancements, the essential reforms and creation of a state that functions as such, need will continue to open the oceans for thousands to move and settle.

In pursuit of success, in assembling the best available betters one’s chance. It is a vicious cycle that lays its blame in the same heap before the elect, as the intellectual talent brain drained to Europe and beyond.

Are there state wide initiatives to curb this need? Is there investment and legislation at Federal level to address the driving forces? Health, welfare, work, education, do detail the orders and actions from the power wielders to build the social system imperative to achieve the idealism being preached by yourself and Tbite.

Does the government care? Then the people must care for themselves. If the state reneges on its duties as state, the people will find a solution for the state they have been left in.

You lose what you cannot keep. Nigeria’s loss at one point will become its gain, to some extent, at another. The cycle will not relent till there is reform and a revolution of sorts in norms of state leadership. Till then, it’s just a dream that wakes to its nightmare day in, day out.